Did you ever determine the wheel base of the Monza? Cause I think the
Firebird is only 101".
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "George Mitchell" <americanpartnerinrussia@starpower.net>
To: <kturk@ala.net>; "Dick J" <lsr_man@yahoo.com>; <FastmetalBDF@aol.com>;
<Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com>; <landspeedracer@email.msn.com>;
<Flowbench@aol.com>; <fosterap@flash.net>
Cc: <land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:45 PM
Subject: RE: Ballast & Handling
> I have got you Kieth and I understand.
> I guess my question is ( I am sorry if I am belaboring it ) If you took
> the motor out of that 300 mph firebird and put it in one of the many
Monzas
> thats running out there , would it be pretty close because of the smaller
> whole put in the air by the monza or would it be scary because of the
> wheelbase?
> I know wheelbase is good, I just wonder about the "build it like a dart "
vs
> "aero center of pressure " discussion that seems banter about .
> George in Dc working at the computer today
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keith Turk [mailto:kturk@ala.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 5:27 PM
> To: Dick J; George Mitchell; FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
> Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com; landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> Flowbench@aol.com; fosterap@flash.net
> Cc: land-speed@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
>
>
> You get them to allow that in the Altered category.... and I am a
Player...
> the air dam must be no farther forward then the front of the front
> bumper...
>
> but your thoughts are right.... Given a certain amount of Frontal area to
> work with ... my goal was to think of the car as it went through the air
> and look for anyplace the air would get messed with at all.... or what
> would cause the air NOT to flow as smoothly as it could.... Take this to
an
> extreme and you end up with a car designed JUST like Jack's ... Now if I
> could get Dan to sign off on that as a Production Car.... well Red hat's
> wouldn't be an issue!!!
>
> Keith ( still waiting for the folks on the other side of that wall to send
> my Z piece of metal back to me)
>
> ----------
> > From: Dick J <lsr_man@yahoo.com>
> > To: kturk@ala.net; George Mitchell
> <americanpartnerinrussia@starpower.net>; FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
> Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com; landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> Flowbench@aol.com; fosterap@flash.net
> > Cc: land-speed@autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
> > Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 1:17 PM
> >
> > AND THIS FROM A GUY WHO MAKES FAKE ROCKS FOR A
> > LIVING!
> >
> > Believe it or not, I followed all of that, Keith.
> >
> >
> > Now, about the frontal area you mention regarding
> > stock-bodied cars. It would seem to me that if
> > you are stuck with a given frontal area based on
> > stock body configuration, the best thing to do
> > would be to make the nose as streamlined as
> > possible to slip into the air a little smoother.
> > Yet, it seems like most of the stock-bodied cars,
> > like yours, have the grill blocked off and a
> > practically flat air dam across the front. Why
> > isn't it more efficient to continue the factory
> > slope of the hood and front fenders out about
> > three feet and right down to 2" from the ground".
> > Imagine your Camaro with a Corvette front clip.
> > Why attack the air with such a blunt instrument?
> >
> > Dick J
> >
> > --- Keith Turk <kturk@ala.net> wrote:
> > > WHOA..... Guys we are losing something here in
> > > the translation....
> > >
> > > We first need to define the difference between
> > > instant center....( point in
> > > the car where mechanical forces are applied )
> > > and Aerodynamic Center of
> > > Pressure.... They are not the same thing....
> > >
> > > A short wheel Base car is NOT more stable then
> > > a Long wheelbase car....
> > > little logic goes a long way here.... the
> > > longer the car the longer the
> > > arm can be where force is applied.... Longer
> > > lever.... better leverage...
> > > hmmm
> > >
> > > are the front wheels getting lighter because of
> > > the Traction associated
> > > with the rear tires.... hmmm sure I think that
> > > is why we see wheel stands
> > > at a drag strip.... at Bonneville we don't have
> > > that kind of traction...
> > >
> > > Keep in mind at Speed we have aerodynamic
> > > pressures on the nose of the car
> > > as a matter of impact air... and that downforce
> > > in conjunction with the
> > > other aerodynamic aids we have ( spoilers ...
> > > air dam's so on ) converts
> > > into what the Total aerodynamic pressures are
> > > on the car.... the sum of all
> > > of these forces equals some amount of Force....
> > > where that force is
> > > excerted called the center of Pressure.... the
> > > NET effect of Both of these
> > > is the total downforce on the car.....
> > >
> > > Now if we can develop the Traction of a Top
> > > Fuel car.... then I think the
> > > Blow over is an event we need to think about
> > > when designing a car.... in
> > > the mean time on Stock bodies the critical
> > > dimensions are going to be
> > > length and Frontal area.... Longer is Good...
> > > and the smallest frontal area
> > > is Very critical.... which is more important to
> > > you is a matter of
> > > choice.... ( yeah I bet there is a logical
> > > solution to this on paper
> > > somewhere... I ain't smart enough to sort it
> > > out.. I just know what has
> > > worked in my case )
> > >
> > > Keith ( okay Dan Help Mr. wizard... I am
> > > totally lost)
> > >
> > > I can't in my mind anyway figure out how a
> > > short car would handle better
> > > then a long car out of all that..... Keep in
> > > mind car's like Jack's Truly
> > > are like a lawn dart.... the longer they are
> > > the straighter they go....
> > > with less impute.
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > > From: George Mitchell
> > > <americanpartnerinrussia@starpower.net>
> > > > To: FastmetalBDF@aol.com;
> > > Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com;
> > > landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> > > Flowbench@aol.com; lsr_man@yahoo.com;
> > > fosterap@flash.net
> > > > Cc: kturk@ala.net; land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > > Subject: RE: Ballast & Handling
> > > > Date: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 9:11 AM
> > > >
> > > > snip<Those long wheelbase cars
> > > > reduce the weight on the front tire patch>
> > > >
> > > > so why would you want less weight on the
> > > front tire patch if that is
> > > whats
> > > > going to steer you out of trouble ?
> > > > If the leverege can make trouble down course
> > > worse then why wouldnt a
> > > > slippery small car work better than a
> > > slippery longer one . Note-- I am
> > > > talking Monza vs Firebird -- not roadster vs
> > > streamliner--or are they
> > > pretty
> > > > darn close?
> > > > Im just thinking wheelbase here. I know that
> > > the Firebird that we ran
> > > > handled better than the Monza but now you all
> > > have me wondering why. I
> > > > thought it was all about the wheelbase.
> > > >
> > > > would the center of pressure on a production
> > > car be somewhere in the hood
> > > or
> > > > somewhere in the winshield? Meaning is it
> > > where there is the most
> > > pressure?
> > > >
> > > > Aren't you guys happy I'm working out of my
> > > house now? Lurker days are
> > > over
> > > > !!
> > > >
> > > > George in DC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > > [mailto:owner-land-speed@autox.team.net]On
> > > Behalf Of
> > > > FastmetalBDF@aol.com
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 2:05 PM
> > > > To: Dale.Clay@mdhelicopters.com;
> > > landspeedracer@email.msn.com;
> > > > Flowbench@aol.com; lsr_man@yahoo.com;
> > > fosterap@flash.net
> > > > Cc: kturk@ala.net; land-speed@autox.team.net
> > > > Subject: Re: Ballast & Handling
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > And EVERYTHING that DOES NOT move
> > > HAS to obey the laws
> > > > of physics, likewise . If the car encounters
> > > yaw, the lengthened
> > > wheelbase
> > > > multiplies the effect of the air pressure
> > > acting upon the leading side of
> > > > the
> > > > nose, increasing the chance of the car
> > > getting sideways, the same way as
> > > > if you held a ping pong paddle out the window
> > > of a car at speed ......
> > > > you might be able to hold it somewhat steady
> > > at this speed, but not if
> > > > it was fastened out on the end of a broom
> > > handle, or such .
> > > > It is all leverage. As you stated the
> > > longer wheelbase does give the
> > > > driver a much better chance of making the
> > > corrections sooner to
> > > > keep it on the straight and narrow . Those
> > > long wheelbase cars
> > > > reduce the weight on the front tire patch, so
> > > all this has to be a
> > > > consideration ..... and we' re not even
> > > getting into aerodynamics here !
> > > > ...... fascinating subject ...... or is that
> > > FASTinating ?
> > > > bdf
> >
> >
> > =====
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > * Dick J *
> > * (In East Texas) *
> > * # 729 *
> > * C/GRS E/STR *
> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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