G'day list
Hope you don't mind me bouncing this message of this thread , thought it would
dovetail nicely off Joes talk of passions, I have been following this list for
a relatively short period, witnessing its trials and tribilations , under
activity , over activity , stuff ups , true pearls of wisdom and some times it
silence on questions but through all of this it has not lacked passion , I
stand in awe of the knowledge ,passion and experience displayed by its members
whom in most matters are light years ahead of my knowledge or experience , I
salute you all and GOD bless .
To all of you closet listers have a go the only way to learn is to do and to
all who have answered my postings a big thankyou .
Off to Lake Gairdner for SOME SERIOUS YEEE HARRR! catch up with yo all
18.3.02
Gary who is not brown nosing realy!
PS Joe I might get to run a ZX12R soon at the salt
----- Original Message -----
From: Joe Amo
Sent: Sunday, 3 March 2002 3:21 AM
To: Dave Dahlgren
Cc: Skip Higginbotham; land-speed@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: Nitrous 101(Some More)
Dave I had a great converstation with Rick Gold
of ERC at WF this past year, we discussed many
different aspects of some fuels, with emphasis on
the differences between specific VP fuels and comparing them
to some of the ERC fuels, with most emphasis placed
on discussing VPC16 and ERC's A8 family of fuels,
well it was a "discussion" from the standpoint of I asked
questions and then listened intently,
Rick likes NOTHING more than to discuss fuel
composition and formulation, talk about passionate!!!!!!!!
He went into great detail about chemically breaking down
VP's fuels and knowing them like the back of his hand,
to make a long wonderful story short, MANY of us
have NO clue how blessed we are with his efforts at
formulating custom blends for our use at landspeed racing
HIS fuels are custom blends, the VP fuels such as C16
is a "spec" fuel, they have their hands tied with respect
to many characteristics of the fuel, Rick is very proud
of not having his hands tied with our fuels, and it seemed
very clear to me that he has incorporated aspects into the
A8 fuels that make it better without arguement, going
out of the bounds of the VP "spec", very much like
a motor having a compression limit and valve train
limit compared to one without
Dave I could not begin to explain as Rick did, he
went to great lengths to explain the differences in
composition and blending as IMPARTIALLY
as he could
I truly feel that if you were treated to the "analysis"
it would be MOST enlightening, and really
hard data that speaks for itself without much
room for arguement
Jon and I had spoken with him about being a guest
on chat or simply here on the list, for a more revealing
and colorful exchange of information
We will pursue making this dialogue possible/happen
Rick, truly isnt one that likes to go around tooting his own
horn, even though it is his business, he thrives on the details
behind the scene, but like you or anyone passionate WITH
an expertise, he will open up
Joe :)
Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>Skip every text I have ever read defines Ve as the breathing ability of the
>engine. No where in any of the equations is there any reference to flame
front
>speed. You can get mean numbers for flame front but that is the best you can
hope
>for. Those numbers are different on a cycle by cycle basis. Even worse it
is
>about impossible to calulate the numbers in both directions in that the
>requirement for one cycle is dependant on the previous one to a certain
degree,
>so without knowing what has happened in the last cycle it is hard to
determine
>what needs to be done in the next one. Micro proccessors are helping some
there
>measuring the ionization characteristsics of the spark and getting some
useful
>info there. The real problem you are having is the fuel characteristics at
>Bonneville. I have had the same problem with several cars in that all the
>expected things do not seem to work and the EGT is universally too high no
matter
>what you do. I have struggled to get below 1450 there and am personally
getting a
>little lost to be honest. I feel it is the fuel and there is nothing that can
be
>done about it as far as I can see. The only other issue seems that it may be
a
>cooling one at Bonneville in that you are on the throttle for minutes. The
other
>issue is whatever the ambient temperature goes up so does EGT but this would
only
>be about a 20 degree difference as most dyno cells are about 85 or so to
begine
>with.
>
>This in general is not information that you are going to get that will be
useful
>in the long run no matter how useful it may seem. All I would think they can
>provide you with is the speed under a certain set of lab conditions, which
>probably do not have anything to do with your particular engine but hey use
it if
>you will be I am willing to bet it will be something that will only send you
off
>in a different direction that might not have anything to do with what needs
to
>get done.
>Dave
>
>
>Skip Higginbotham wrote:
>
>>I didn't and may not ask any more questions......
>>
>>In the mean time:
>>Others seem to think that power loss at higher RPMs is caused by VE
>>reduction. They might be right depending on how VE is defined.
>>The same people (and lots of others) also think that power loss at higher
>>RPMs has nothing to do with the fact that the piston tries to outrun the
>>flamefront. It can't, of course, but the delta velocity causes less force
>>to be applied to the top of the piston as RPMs increase. Basic
stuff........
>>
>>Now back to the question at hand........considering all the factors that
>>you have accurately noted as constants or at least knowns for the purpose
>>of my question, I would like to (with my engine and it's factors, whatever
>>they are) be able to accurately predict the right amount spark advance to
>>apply at any operating RPM, by fuel type, to maximize power (force applied
>>to pistons). And then implement that advance curve. What's the problem with
>>wanting to do that?
>>
>>Fuel companies that have said that they have the data and won't give it to
>>me......so where is it so I can get it???? I'm not making fuel for a
>>living....I don't even mess with it....much (-:
>>
>>Skip (I don't care if the data is current at this point......just want
data)
>>
>>At 02:18 PM 3/1/02 -0500, Dave Dahlgren wrote:
>>
>>>ok I am lost now, must be a units conversion thing...
>>>I give up how do you get from flame front speed to Ve???
>>>Is it squared or cubed by the plug heat range or divided by the 5'th root
of
>>>the
>>>rod ratio???
>>>
>>>DaveGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :
http://explorer.msn.com
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