shop-talk
[Top] [All Lists]

Re: [Shop-talk] Restoring 100 year old oak dining room chairs

To: "Tim ." <tims_datsun_stuff@outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Restoring 100 year old oak dining room chairs
From: Jim Franklin <jamesf@groupwbench.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 07:23:40 -0500
Cc: Shop Talk <shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: shop-talk@autox.team.net
References: <MN6PR14MB7197062F119A51973609CFADB4C59@MN6PR14MB7197.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>
--===============4243272209001220033==
        boundary="Apple-Mail=_7E047340-7332-46FC-8CC9-AF02796BDEFA"


--Apple-Mail=_7E047340-7332-46FC-8CC9-AF02796BDEFA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        charset=us-ascii

Hopefully you get more experienced responses but from my little =
knowledge of woodworking, you may have opened up the joints too much by =
that roughing up and groove cutting. The glue won't be strong enough to =
fill gaps, it only bonds surfaces. So the joints need to be tight to =
start with.=20

Titebond or Gorilla wood glue will be more than strong enough.=20
=20
jim

> On Jan 19, 2023, at 9:54 PM, Tim . <tims_datsun_stuff@outlook.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Skip to the bottom for the question to avoid my ramble.....
>=20
> Sorry for the long arse chat here but this is a perfect basement shop =
project now that winter might actually be here in southern WI.=20
>=20
> We have a dining room set that I bought over 20 years ago; six chairs, =
table with five leaves and a matching buffet. It is a beautiful set that =
I bought the boss after finishing her undergrad. Best part is it matches =
perfectly the now 120 year old craftsman we bought when she finished her =
masters 15 years ago. Sorry, I digress being proud of the boss.=20
>=20
> I semi restored (reglued to tighten up) three of the chairs shortly =
after buying the set. Two totally need to be redone and the third was =
getting there.=20
>=20
> When I did these three back then I got them as far apart as needed =
without pulling apart joints that were still tight, cleaned out old =
glue, replaced pins (dowels?) as necessary and used big proper clamps to =
keep them together whilst the glue cured. I used what I thought was a =
high-quality wood glue on surfaces were clean of old glue and somewhat =
roughed up to grab the glue better. I even cut groves in the new =
pins/dowels to have more glue surface.
>=20
> So, now all six need to be done. I will be able to take each one all =
the way apart, they are all that loose. =20
>=20
> Question: What glue should I use assuming that I will replace =
pins/dowels as needed.=20
>=20
> again, sorry for the yadda yadda blah blah
> cheers
> tims
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html =
<http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk =
<http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive =
<http://autox.team.net/archive>
>=20
> Unsubscribe/Manage: =
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench.org =
<http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench.org>

--Apple-Mail=_7E047340-7332-46FC-8CC9-AF02796BDEFA
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
        charset=us-ascii

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hopefully you get more experienced responses but from my =
little knowledge of woodworking, you may have opened up the joints too =
much by that roughing up and groove cutting. The glue won't be strong =
enough to fill gaps, it only bonds surfaces. So the joints need to be =
tight to start with.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Titebond or Gorilla wood glue will be more than strong =
enough.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">jim<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jan 19, 2023, at 9:54 PM, Tim . &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tims_datsun_stuff@outlook.com"; =
class=3D"">tims_datsun_stuff@outlook.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Skip to the =
bottom for the question to avoid my ramble.....</div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Sorry for the long arse chat here =
but this is a perfect basement shop project now that winter might =
actually be here in southern WI.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=3D"">We have a dining room =
set that I bought over 20 years ago; six chairs, table with five leaves =
and a matching buffet. It is a beautiful set that I bought the boss =
after finishing her undergrad. Best part is it matches perfectly the now =
120 year old craftsman we bought when she finished her masters 15 years =
ago. Sorry, I digress being proud of the boss.&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">I semi restored =
(reglued to tighten up) three of the chairs shortly after buying the =
set. Two totally need to be redone and the third was getting =
there.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">When I did these =
three back then I got them as far apart as needed without pulling apart =
joints that were still tight, cleaned out old glue, replaced pins =
(dowels?) as necessary and used big proper clamps to keep them together =
whilst the glue cured. I used what I thought was a high-quality wood =
glue on surfaces were clean of old glue and somewhat roughed up to grab =
the glue better. I even cut groves in the new pins/dowels to have more =
glue surface.</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">So, now all six =
need to be done. I will be able to take each one all the way apart, they =
are all that loose.&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Question: What glue should I use =
assuming that I will replace pins/dowels as needed.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">again, sorry for the yadda yadda =
blah blah</div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">cheers</div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">tims</div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
font-size: 12pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"elementToProof" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; =
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br class=3D""></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:Shop-talk@autox.team.net"; style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Shop-talk@autox.team.net</a><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Donate:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Suggested annual donation &nbsp;$12.96</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Archive:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk"; style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk</a><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive"; style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Unsubscribe/Manage:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbench=
.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf@groupwbe=
nch.org</a></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7E047340-7332-46FC-8CC9-AF02796BDEFA--

--===============4243272209001220033==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk@autox.team.net
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive



--===============4243272209001220033==--

<Prev in Thread] Current Thread [Next in Thread>