Wow, lots of comments - I'm citing Alan's comments here, but replying to
what many others have said as well.
> Now, what happens if we allow free rear bars? Folks start putting massive
> rear bars on cars. This is potentially great for experienced
drivers/tuners.
> They can now dial in effective spring rates, reduce unwanted geometry
> changes and make their cars neutral resulting in faster times. The novice
> however may be in trouble. Looking at the results experienced drivers are
> getting from bigger rear bars; the novice goes out and gets the biggest
bar
> he can find and then adjusts it as tightly as possible. Result -
potentially
> dangerous oversteer.
But all our courses are designed in accordance with SCCA rules, with enough
runoff to prevent a novice spinning off course like the Ferrari in that
James Bond movie from hitting anything - right??? :) Your point is well
taken, but part of why autox is so great for novices is that they learn tons
about car control. If they aren't lucky enough to have someone there to
tell them that the world's stiffest rear bar ain't the greatest thing
(funny, I just had that very discussion with someone on a Saturn list
yesterday), they'll learn soon enough. But I'd hate for them to learn it
the hard way on the street, taking a fast off-ramp while driving to the
autox. I say "they," while also realizing that though I'm getting better, I
still have a lot to learn myself!
> Other issues I have with the change:
> Added parts cost.
Like "stock" isn't expensive already? Race tires (which require an extra
set of wheels) and high performance shocks/struts are virtually required to
be competitive. The additional $100 for a rear sway bar is the same as a
Kumho - a drop in the bucket, at this point.
> Potential damage to relatively underdesigned stock frames when combined
with
> massive bars.
> Additional stress placed on stock suspension components with potential for
> increased failures.
Good points, but stock frames weren't designed for race tires or really
stiff shocks, either.
> Removal of the current classing status quo to be replaced by an unknown
but
> equally unfair new status quo.
As someone else suggested (sorry, I don't remember who), perhaps we could
try it at a local level or two before making it an across-the-board change.
Or even better, leave the system alone for now, but begin collecting data on
cars that run... "OK, this Saturn's in ST due to a rear bar, but what if he
was in ES?" Crunch the numbers and see how it works out.
> Additional rules = additional bickering/protests
Perhaps a better word would be "changed" rules. Any rule change will
benefit some and hinder others - a double edged sword. The alternative is
to never change the rules, which leads to discussions like this. :)
> All this for what advantage? none!!!
I wouldn't agree with that - as has been stated, the current rules were
implemented when cars were made differently than today, and the FWD sport
compact didn't exist. What's being proposed is an update of the rules to
reflect the different handling characteristics of a large number of
currently competing cars. I think the "one end or the other" idea is the
best compromise. Even the AWD folks can cash in on that (after ice racing,
I have a healthy respect for what an AWD Talon or Audi can do). :)
I should point out that just about any modern car will tend to understeer in
stock form, no matter which end of the car the drive wheels are on - even
the well balanced, RWD BMW 3 series (non ///M - I can't speak for the M3,
since I haven't had the pleasure of driving one). And though there are
differences in how you have to drive FWD vs. RWD, speaking for myself, they
aren't as different as I'd thought before I tried both on the same course
(BMW 320i, Saturn SC2). I can't power slide the SC2 out of a corner (I
know, not the fastest way out), but if I lift in the middle of a turn, the
back's gonna kick out no matter which I'm driving.
- Justin
P.S. My previous statement that bigger front bars cause understeer was, as
many have pointed out publicly and privately, an oversimplification. I was
speaking for the majority of cars out there today. But as I've learned, the
older Vee Dubs benefit due to their suspension geometry, and an already
oversteering car will balance out a bit (I've seen MR2s spin many a time -
they look like fun!)
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