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I would think if you are moving less than your racing speed you
should have a hand in the air as a signal that you are slowing. If
you are racing at the speed you are capable of then you have the
line. Just my 2 cents worth.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 11:25 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
> I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come
> away convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven
> says " A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left and
> moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
> line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.
>
> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
>
>> Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing
>> speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move
>> off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea.
>> The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is
>> responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven
>> was talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing
>> speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in
>> any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed
>> to be on the line then.
>>
>> Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not
>> safe nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not
>> be able to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't
>> say, but I bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
>>
>>> I understand the intent....
>>>
>>> When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group,
>>> the understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone
>>> wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe
>>> pass.
>>>
>>> Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
>>>
>>> One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line"
>>> to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that
>>> session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
>>>
>>> When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini
>>> Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my
>>> expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking
>>> car should use that information in order to make a safe pass.
>>>
>>> I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each
>>> vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.
>>> If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply.
>>> If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also
>>> needs to be agreed before cars hit the track.
>>>
>>> It all comes down to communication.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> Dallas
>>> too many toys, not enough $$$
>>>
>>> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>>> bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
>>> To: britbits@netzero.com
>>> Cc: 'FOT'
>>> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>
>>> You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to
>>> delete before reading.
>>>
>>>
>>> I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
>>> "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed
>>> that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was
>>> traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not
>>> want to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly,
>>> why were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you
>>> need to be when you need to be there, in other words, when you
>>> are at speed and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you
>>> are driving to the line, you don't need to be there. If the line
>>> is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to be,
>>> then you do.
>>>
>>> There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if
>>> you are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago
>>> this guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why
>>> I always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group,
>>> generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He
>>> was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving
>>> instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the
>>> line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter
>>> in any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit
>>> "racing". In contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's
>>> battling it out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they
>>> need to be where they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and
>>> wait.
>>>
>>> If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe
>>> path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up
>>> behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a
>>> corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and
>>> that's dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say,
>>> the other driver was to blame, but you are responsible.
>>>
>>> We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
>>> picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed
>>> you don't belong anywhere near the racing line.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
>>>
>>>> Steven,
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage
>>>> events... so
>>>> some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC
>>>> games feel
>>>> they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they
>>>> saw "Days of
>>>> Thunder" once too often ;)
>>>>
>>>> Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a
>>>> bad idea to
>>>> install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show
>>>> them the
>>>> video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>> Dallas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>>>> bounces@autox.team.net] On
>>>> Behalf Of Steven Belfer
>>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
>>>> To: FOT
>>>> Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>>
>>>> Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I
>>>> raced at
>>>> Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding.
>>>> This meant I
>>>> needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let
>>>> them cool so
>>>> I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I
>>>> was in the
>>>> first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys
>>>> what I needed
>>>> to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine
>>>> and feeling
>>>> that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just
>>>> about done
>>>> bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the
>>>> first "Warm-up"
>>>> session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I
>>>> waved him to the
>>>> left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty
>>>> close to the
>>>> line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON
>>>> THE DIRT at
>>>> full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly,
>>>> threw some
>>>> rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with
>>>> a yellow
>>>> P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice
>>>> his lap time
>>>> when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise
>>>> and made me
>>>> angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my
>>>> best to get
>>>> my job done safely and get off
>>>> the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if
>>>> it's
>>>> dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no
>>>> prize money."
>>>> I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of
>>>> their
>>>> machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag
>>>> move and
>>>> you're in big trouble
>
> _______________________________________________
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
I would think if you are moving less than your racing speed you should =
have a hand in the air as a signal that you are slowing. If you are =
racing at the speed you are capable of then you have the line. Just my 2 =
cents worth.<br><div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 11:25 PM, Bill Babcock =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite">I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I =
come away convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. =A0Steven =
says "=A0A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the=A0left and =
moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to =
the<br><div><div>line." =A0OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to =
me. =A0 =A0</div><div><br></div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill =
Babcock wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Actually, it all comes =
down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing speed. You =
are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at speed. =
In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to =
hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe =
manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was =
NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. =
And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT =
supposed to be on the line then.=A0<div><br></div><div>Bedding your =
brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is it wise =
driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you =
point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't =
go into the dirt because he wanted =
to.=A0</div><div><br><div><br><div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I understand the =
intent....</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race =
group, the understanding was that you "drove the line".=A0 If someone =
wanted to=A0 pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe =
pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this =
forum?</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off =
line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that =
session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic =
rule.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car =
(Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult.=A0=A0 But my =
expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car =
should use that information in order to make a safe =
pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each =
vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track.=A0 If =
the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply.=A0=A0 If it's =
"if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be =
agreed before cars hit the track.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">It all comes down to =
communication.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">Cheers,</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span>=A0</div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Jim</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Dallas</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">too many toys, not enough =
$$$</font></span></div><br> <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" =
lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Babcock<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, =
September 25, 2008 10:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b=
> 'FOT'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br></font><br></div> <div></div>You may not like this answer, so =
here's your opportunity to delete before reading. <div><br></div> =
<div><br></div> <div>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have =
been in the "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a =
speed that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was =
traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to =
go. So my question is, if you were=A0traveling=A0that slowly, why were =
you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be when =
you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and it's the =
only safe way through a corner. If you are <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: =
underline">driving</span> to the line, you don't need to be there. If =
the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to =
be, then you do.=A0</div> <div><br></div> <div>There's a reason why they =
say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not at racing speed, get =
off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a car at what I =
considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I, and the =
entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three =
times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving =
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I =
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on =
the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when =
you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH =
slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing =
but=A0respect=A0for that, lift and wait.=A0</div> <div><br></div> =
<div>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe =
path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you =
can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to =
stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing =
condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but =
you are responsible.=A0</div> <div><br></div> <div>We really DO call =
this racing. Vintage events are car shows with picnics. Vintage races =
are races. If you are not at racing speed you don't belong anywhere near =
the racing line.=A0</div> <div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Sep =
25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type=3D"cite"> =
<div>Steven,<br><br>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing =
vintage events... so<br>some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or =
the different PC games feel<br>they need to drive like a jerk to be a =
"racer". =A0Or maybe they saw "Days of<br>Thunder" once too often =
;)<br><br>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not =
a bad idea to<br>install an in car camera. =A0Next time.. grab an =
official and show them the<br>video. =A0It's kind of hard to argue =
against a =
video.<br><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Jim<br>Dallas<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] On<br>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<br>Sent: Thursday, September 25, =
2008 6:24 PM<br>To: FOT<br>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br><br>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, =A0two weekends =
ago I raced at<br>Buttonwillow in my TR3. =A0I had new brakes that =
needed bedding. =A0This meant I<br>needed to heat up my brakes in the =
first practice session, let them cool so<br>I could have good braking =
power for the rest of the weekend. =A0I was in the<br>first group so =
at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys what I needed<br>to do =
and started in the back. =A0I'm also running a fresh engine and =
feeling<br>that out as well. =A0Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm =
just about done<br>bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. =
=A0This is the first "Warm-up"<br>session of the weekend. =A0A red =
2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the<br>left and moved to the =
right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the<br>line. =A0Next =
thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE DIRT at<br>full =
speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, threw =
some<br>rocks onto my car and kept going. =A0This guy was racing hard =
with a yellow<br>P1800 and not letting up one bit. =A0He didn't want =
to sacrifice his lap time<br>when overtaking me. =A0The level of =
aggression took me by surprise and made me<br>angry. =A0It was, after =
all the morning warm-up and I truly did my best to get<br>my job done =
safely and get off =A0<br>the race track. =A0=A0I tell my friends and =
family, when they ask if it's =A0<br>dangerous, "You see, it's a =
gentlemen's sport and there's no prize money."<br>I would say that =
most of the drivers are safe and respectful of their<br>machines and =
their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<br>you're =
in big =
trouble<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
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