Roland is correct and his information on vitreous enamel is what should be in
the standards.
Thank you.
Gary Anderson
> On Oct 24, 2018, at 8:32 PM, sentenac.rw@gmail.com wrote:
>
> With respect to all, and respectfully, I suggest that we all
> understand that the term cloisonne refers to the use of wire to make a
> pattern which is soldered to a flat bed. The wire is usually gold or
> silver. The 'filler' material, in the case of Healeys the red stuff
> (at least for most of the pre-BJ series Healeys), is vitreous enamel.
> It is fired in place, not simply sprayed on. It is somewhat similar
> to the 'enamel' that is used in enamelware baking dishes and older
> cast iron bathtubs, and not closely related to paint. For Healey
> badges the red stuff is in depressions cast into the badge, not
> created with wire.
>
> -Roland
> BN1 #724 about to be launched onto public highways for the first time
> since 1964
>
>
>
>> On Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:05:59 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>> With all due respect, Curt, how about showing some respect â?? if youâ??re
>> so smart now why didnâ??t you make this correction in all the years you were
>> chairman of concours.
>>
>> Gary Anderson
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 24, 2018, at 2:00 PM, healeys-request@autox.team.net wrote:
>>>
>>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>> healeys@autox.team.net
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>> healeys-request@autox.team.net
>>>
>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>> healeys-owner@autox.team.net
>>>
>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Re: Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324 (Gary Anderson)
>>> 2. Re: paint type (Frank Magnusson)
>>> 3. Re: Lift for Healeys (Bob Spidell)
>>> 4. Re: Lift for Healeys (Richard Collins)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:32:00 -0400
>>> From: Gary Anderson <editorgary@aol.com>
>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324
>>> Message-ID: <628F5308-3B81-487C-BE7B-D2944E15F82E@aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>>>
>>> When we wrote that I think we were saying that the inset red was baked or
>>> fired in to create a glass effect? to distinguish it from paint. Someone
>>> should take it to a jewelry maker and ask what it is rathe than guessing.
>>> G
>>>
>>> Gary Anderson
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 23, 2018, at 2:00 PM, healeys-request@autox.team.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Send Healeys mailing list submissions to
>>>> healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>
>>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>>>> healeys-request@autox.team.net
>>>>
>>>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>>>> healeys-owner@autox.team.net
>>>>
>>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>>> than "Re: Contents of Healeys digest..."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Today's Topics:
>>>>
>>>> 1. Re: Paint type (Curtis Arndt)
>>>> 2. Re: Paint type (Michael Salter)
>>>> 3. Re: Paint type (Roger Moment)
>>>> 4. Re: Paint type (nconklin@sbcglobal.net)
>>>> 5. Re: Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not [was ?Paint type and
>>>> color?] (Ian Hey)
>>>> 6. Paint type (simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com)
>>>> 7. Re: Paint type and color (Bob Spidell)
>>>> 8. Re: Paint type (Andy Sneddon)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 1
>>>> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 22:42:23 -0700
>>>> From: Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>
>>>> To: gary brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>, Healey List
>>>> <healeys@autox.team.net>, Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAJKrNeSRsNDpMHL6OD7JMfxY2d2rQ7YROqh+2MJvOMxjauR+sA@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Gary,
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>>>>
>>>> *Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines update. *
>>>>
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel. Yes, the
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>> WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>>
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>
>>>> *"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome." *
>>>>
>>>> Change to read* "**red enamel lettering"*
>>>>
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>> painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>
>>>> *"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." *
>>>>
>>>> Change to read* "**was not enamel but was painted red instead of the
>>>> enamel."*
>>>>
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns Maxwell
>>>> Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive badges
>>>> are enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier automotive emblem
>>>> restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach participants, is a
>>>> neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a number of
>>>> badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration work
>>>> for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on. Oh, and Karla's
>>>> business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne. In the UK the best
>>>> known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>>
>>>> *FAQ... How was my emblem created? *
>>>>
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, *incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?*.
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called *champlev?* (pronounced
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>>
>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>>>>
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to any
>>>> shiny color. The correct terminology is *vitreous* [glass] enamel. It is a
>>>> true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F. Enamel can be
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know
>>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>>> lettering. Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true with
>>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one or two
>>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>>> was on hand".
>>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>>>
>>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>
>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181018/adfc7872/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 2
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 07:35:37 -0400
>>>> From: Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> To: "Curt/Nancy Arndt" <cnaarndt@gmail.com>
>>>> Cc: healeys@autox.team.net, Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID:
>>>> <CAB3i7LLfSqVEa0A-9kTz5MfTZKpfydwTXqHheHSZYnp2Bb7dJg@mail.gmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Okay now I get it.
>>>> What I have been refering to as "cliosonne" is actually "vitreous enamel"
>>>> (also know as champlev?) and that is actually what was used in all front
>>>> badges until the later Mk III badges that appeared with red paint.
>>>> What is important is that the vitreous enamel IS NOT PAINT.
>>>> Part of the terminology problem is that some paints are commonly referred
>>>> to as "emamel" but enamel paint is not what was used in the badges prior to
>>>> MkIII cars prior to around HBJ8L 39975.
>>>> If this is agreed I will make the appropriate changes to the guidelines.
>>>>
>>>> M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 1:42 AM Curtis Arndt, <cnaarndt@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Gary,
>>>>>
>>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>>>>>
>>>>> *Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next
>>>>> Concours Guidelines update. *
>>>>>
>>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel. Yes, the
>>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>>> WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>>>
>>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>>
>>>>> *"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome." *
>>>>>
>>>>> Change to read* "**red enamel lettering"*
>>>>>
>>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>>>
>>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>>> painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>>
>>>>> *"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background
>>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." *
>>>>>
>>>>> Change to read* "**was not enamel but was painted red instead of the
>>>>> enamel."*
>>>>>
>>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns
>>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive
>>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier automotive
>>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach
>>>>> participants,
>>>>> is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a
>>>>> number
>>>>> of badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration
>>>>> work
>>>>> for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on. Oh, and Karla's
>>>>> business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne. In the UK the best
>>>>> known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.
>>>>>
>>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
>>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>>>
>>>>> *FAQ... How was my emblem created? *
>>>>>
>>>>> These enameled emblems are often, *incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?*.
>>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called *champlev?* (pronounced
>>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>>>
>>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>>>>>
>>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to
>>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is *vitreous* [glass] enamel. It
>>>>> is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F. Enamel can be
>>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't
>>>>>> know
>>>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>>>> lettering. Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>>>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>>>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one or two
>>>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>>>> was on hand".
>>>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>>>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181019/e98c54ac/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 3
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 06:06:25 -0600
>>>> From: "Roger Moment" <Rmoment@comcast.net>
>>>> To: "Curtis Arndt" <cnaarndt@gmail.com>, "gary brierton"
>>>> <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Sean and Tricia Johnson <healey@communitynet.org>, Michael Salter
>>>> <michael.salter@gmail.com>, Healey List <healeys@autox.team.net>,
>>>> "Tom, Kaye Kovacs" <fntune@charter.net>, carol hodgman
>>>> <carolhodgman@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <8D06CCAAE5FA42AD8B68682CE6AB4ECD@7RM>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> To all,
>>>>
>>>> I?m not clear about who wrote what, but ALL Healey wing badges WERE
>>>> CLOISONN? (up to late BJ8s, starting in Dec. 1966, as stated in the
>>>> current Guidelines)!!!!!!!! You can tell this because the red lettering
>>>> color is transparent and you can see through to the backing.
>>>>
>>>> This is why you cannot just repair the red on a badge. The Cloisonn?
>>>> process requires high heat and would destroy the Cr plating ? they do the
>>>> lettering first and plate with Cr afterwards.
>>>>
>>>> I have had manly original badges restored by P-D Enamels in England. Yes,
>>>> their name has ?Enamels? in it, but the process they use to replicate
>>>> original badges like the Healey winged ones is Cloisonn?. They have seen
>>>> a very large number of these and have restored them exactly as-new. They
>>>> agree that the red ?fill? was Cloisonn?!!! They restore them with this
>>>> material.
>>>>
>>>> Look at old defective badges. Where the color has started to separate
>>>> from the backing it looks darker. This is because you are looking through
>>>> a glass and can identify separation from the backing. Where it is
>>>> missing in places it looks exactly like chipped out glass, not paint. It
>>>> is much thicker than paint.
>>>>
>>>> On the late BJ8s they went to paint. This looks totally different!!!
>>>>
>>>> The Guidelines as currently written are correct!! DO NOT CHANGE!!!!!!!!
>>>>
>>>> I?ll ?go to the mat? on this!!!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Roger
>>>>
>>>> From: Curtis Arndt
>>>> Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:42 PM
>>>> To: gary brierton
>>>> Cc: Healey List ; Michael Salter ; Roland Wilhelmy ; Roger Moment
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>>
>>>> Gary,
>>>>
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines update.
>>>>
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel. Yes, the
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>> WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>>
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."
>>>>
>>>> Change to read "red enamel lettering"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>>
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>> painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>>
>>>> "BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?. These later badges have a smooth background
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges."
>>>>
>>>> Change to read "was not enamel but was painted red instead of the enamel."
>>>>
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns
>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive
>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier automotive
>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach
>>>> participants, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has
>>>> restored a number of badges personally for me, and I have done some
>>>> Bakelite restoration work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was
>>>> working on. Oh, and Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell
>>>> Cloisonne. In the UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD
>>>> Cloisonne.
>>>>
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>>
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>> FAQ... How was my emblem created?
>>>>
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn?.
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called champlev? (pronounced
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>>
>>>> The champlev? technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>>>>
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to
>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is vitreous [glass] enamel. It is
>>>> a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F. Enamel can be
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know
>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>> lettering. Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>>>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red paint
>>>> of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true with
>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one or two
>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>> was on hand".
>>>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>>>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>>>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>>>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>>
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>
>>>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
>>>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>>>> URL:
>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181019/c71ccf5e/attachment-0001.html>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 4
>>>> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 14:59:17 +0000 (UTC)
>>>> From: "nconklin@sbcglobal.net" <nconklin@sbcglobal.net>
>>>> To: Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>, gary brierton
>>>> <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> Cc: Roger Moment <rmoment@comcast.net>, Healey List
>>>> <healeys@autox.team.net>, Michael Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <1851283472.13517403.1539961157512@mail.yahoo.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Nice write up and documentation , Thanks Curt
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thursday, October 18, 2018, 10:42 PM, Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Gary,
>>>> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.?
>>>> Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines update.?
>>>> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel.? Yes, the
>>>> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
>>>> WRONG.? I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
>>>> Guidelines revision.
>>>> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> "All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
>>>> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
>>>> cloisonn? lettering inset in chrome."??
>>>> Change to read?"red enamel lettering"
>>>>
>>>> This is where the confusion first arises!
>>>> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1
>>>> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
>>>> painted red.? Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>>>> "BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date ? December
>>>> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn? but was painted red
>>>> instead of the cloisonn?.?These later badges have a smooth background
>>>> instead of the pebbled background of?the enameled badges."?
>>>> Change to read?"was not enamel but was painted red instead of the enamel."
>>>> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns
>>>> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive
>>>> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.? Karla is the premier automotive
>>>> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach
>>>> participants, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has
>>>> restored a number of badges personally for me, and I have done some
>>>> Bakelite restoration work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was
>>>> working on.? Oh, and Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell
>>>> Cloisonne.? In the UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD
>>>> Cloisonne.
>>>> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>>>> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her
>>>> website...?http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>>>> FAQ... How was my emblem created??
>>>>
>>>> These enameled emblems are often, incorrectly, referred to as?cloisonn?.
>>>> Cloisonn? is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent
>>>> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
>>>> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
>>>> cloisonn?. The process that is used is called?champlev??(pronounced
>>>> shomp?-leh-vay).
>>>>
>>>> The champlev? technique involves?applying enamel into depressions in the
>>>> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
>>>> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include the
>>>> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.?
>>>>
>>>> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to
>>>> any shiny color. The correct terminology is?vitreous?[glass] enamel. It is
>>>> a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.? Enamel can be
>>>> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
>>>> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> OK...let's try and clear this up.? As I understand it, the "flat wings
>>>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know
>>>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>>>> lettering.? Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever,
>>>> incloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>>>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.? As was true with
>>>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all
>>>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>>>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one? or two
>>>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever.? Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>>>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>>>> was on hand".I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and
>>>> associating with their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder
>>>> cars).Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.?
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 5
>>>> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 14:53:33 +0100
>>>> From: "Ian Hey" <rianhey@btinternet.com>
>>>> To: "'J. Scott Morris'" <jstmorris@yahoo.com>, "'Patrick Quinn'"
>>>> <p_cquinn@tpg.com.au>, "'Michael Oritt'" <michael.oritt@gmail.com>,
>>>> "'Healey List'" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not [was
>>>> ?Paint type and color?]
>>>> Message-ID: <002701d46945$754282a0$5fc787e0$@btinternet.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> I am not sure how to reply to the whole list, but my BJ7, Chassis No
>>>> 25212, Body number 70069, only just over 100 from the end of BJ7
>>>> production has a hyphen in the badge. I bought the 1963 car in 1977 and
>>>> believe that the badge was probably original.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Interestingly there are some BJ8 features on the car. Eg: the seal down
>>>> the windscreen and on the rear of the front wing is one piece, as BJ8.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ian Hey
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of J. Scott Morris
>>>> Sent: 20 October 2018 17:49
>>>> To: Patrick Quinn <p_cquinn@tpg.com.au>; Michael Oritt
>>>> <michael.oritt@gmail.com>; Healey List <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Badge on bonnet ? Hyphenated or Not [was ?Paint type
>>>> and color?]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Good Day; The issue of Austin Healey being hyphenated or not was
>>>> discussed some time ago.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Attached is my file of those discussions. Each page should be read from
>>>> the bottom to the top since the oldest email is at the bottom and most
>>>> recent at the top.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hope this provides some help on the topic.
>>>>
>>>> --Scott Morris; Simcoe, Ontario, Canada - Keep Smiling, Murphy Lives
>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 6
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 14:02:54 +0100
>>>> From: <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> To: "Healeys" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <000201d46ad0$b73913e0$25ab3ba0$@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> As I said in a previous email, PamelaDavid did refer to the process as
>>>> ?cloisonn??. (No hyphen!).
>>>>
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 7
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 08:01:28 -0700
>>>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type and color
>>>> Message-ID: <42f07c83-3073-11b5-5dd9-658b613193ce@comcast.net>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>>>>
>>>> "... *just buy a quality one from Moss or other vendors"*
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, I've bought several from different vendors--including Moss
>>>> IIRC--and, as someone pointed out, the coloring (enamel, paint,
>>>> whatever) doesn't last because it was applied to chrome.
>>>> **
>>>>
>>>>> On 10/22/2018 7:11 AM, Curtis Arndt wrote:
>>>>> Steve and Fellow Listers,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two great vendors in the US.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maxwell Enamels, Vista, CA...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/Home_Page.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I am a friend of the owner Karla Maxwell (25 years) and she has done
>>>>> work for me an I have done work for her (Bakelite restoration).
>>>>>
>>>>> *She is expensive, and for most badges just buy a quality one from
>>>>> Moss or other vendors.*
>>>>>
>>>>> Moss Motors has a very nice one for $134.00, $239.99 for MKII badges
>>>>> and $249.99 for MKIII badges... Less on sale.
>>>>>
>>>>> Expect to pay $250-$350 plus to have your original restored.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-wings?assoc=6725
>>>>>
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-mk-ii?assoc=7568
>>>>>
>>>>> https://mossmotors.com/badge-austin-healey-mk-iii?assoc=7569
>>>>>
>>>>> The other vendor is Emblemagic in Grand River, OH...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://emblemagic.com/
>>>>>
>>>>> Ray Geschke is the owner, and also very knowledgeable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> Curt
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 3:49 AM BJ8Healeys <sbyers@ec.rr.com
>>>>> <mailto:sbyers@ec.rr.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> There still seems to be some confusion between the _type of
>>>>> construction_ of the badge and the _material_ that is in the
>>>>> colored part.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cloisonn? and champlev? are jewelers' terms that refer to how the
>>>>> badge is constructed, while the red material is either "vitreous
>>>>> enamel" or paint.
>>>>>
>>>>> From the Merriam-Webster dictionary:
>>>>>
>>>>> *Definition of /cloisonn??(adjective)/*
>>>>>
>>>>> *: *of, relating to, or being a style of enamel decoration in
>>>>> which the enamel is applied and fired in _raised_ cells (as of
>>>>> soldered wires) on a usually metal background ? compare champlev?
>>>>> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/champlev%C3%A9>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Definition of /champlev? (adjective) /*
>>>>>
>>>>> *: *of, relating to, or being a style of enamel decoration in
>>>>> which the enamel is applied and fired in cells _depressed_ (as by
>>>>> incising) into a metal background ? compare cloisonn?
>>>>> <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cloisonn%C3%A9>
>>>>>
>>>>> *Definition of /vitreous enamel (noun) /*
>>>>>
>>>>> *: *a fired-on opaque glassy coating on steel or other metals
>>>>>
>>>>> ? called also porcelain enamel
>>>>>
>>>>> Based on these definitions, the BJ7/BJ8 badge _construction_ is
>>>>> champlev?, while the red _material_ is vitreous enamel or paint.?
>>>>> Some have claimed that their badge never had either material but
>>>>> were plain chrome.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Byers
>>>>>
>>>>> HBJ8L/36666
>>>>>
>>>>> BJ8 Registry
>>>>>
>>>>> AHCA Delegate at Large
>>>>>
>>>>> Havelock, NC
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Message: 8
>>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:56:52 +0100
>>>> From: Andy Sneddon <sneddon@xsmail.com>
>>>> To: <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>, Healeys
>>>> <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>> Message-ID: <4F755E0A-929D-454D-B86F-897F9F3A8A7E@xsmail.com>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>>
>>>> Just had a look at my invoice paperwork from Derron (Pamela David Enamels
>>>> / Badgecraft.co.uk) and he has described the process carried out on my
>>>> badge as ? stripped, re-enamelled, chrome finish ?.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? and I can only say that they did an excellent job.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Andy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of
>>>> <simon.lachlan@alexarevel.plus.com>
>>>> Date: Tuesday, 23 October 2018 at 14:52
>>>> To: Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>>> Subject: [Healeys] Paint type
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As I said in a previous email, PamelaDavid did refer to the process as
>>>> ?cloisonn??. (No hyphen!).
>>>>
>>>> Simon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net
>>>> http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.75 Archive:
>>>> http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys http://autox.team.net/archive
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
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>>>>
>>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Healeys mailing list
>>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> End of Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 324
>>>> ****************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 16:19:29 -0500
>>> From: "Frank Magnusson" <fmags@cox.net>
>>> To: <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] paint type
>>> Message-ID: <00a101d46b16$15f30e50$41d92af0$@cox.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I sure hope that a concours guide isn?t written or modified like this. This
>>> is just a bunch of here say over email.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What you need to do, if it even matters, is to take an original badge to a
>>> badge restorer that does both enamel and cloisonn? and have them evaluate it
>>> and determine how it was made. That should be documented on that companies
>>> letterhead and that documentation should be used to either update the
>>> concours guide or leave it as is. If that is not how concours guides are
>>> done, than I?ve lost all respect for concours. Without that, its just a
>>> bunch of guys bickering claiming to be ?The Expert?. It should not be based
>>> on some generic 25 year old statement that ?auto badges are enamel?, either.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am no expert, and do not claim to be. However, I just took an original
>>> cloisonn? badge that I have from a 1940s aircraft restoration that I?m doing
>>> that has red in it, and compared it to my non-hyphenated Austin Healey Mk
>>> III badge and they look very similar. To this untrained eye, I cannot tell,
>>> but it?s not obvious.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Take one to an expert or several experts. Not many people are doing
>>> cloisonn? repair anymore; I have checked to repair my aircraft badge, and I
>>> am not sure if there are any in the U.S., but it?s been awhile since I
>>> checked. A badge restoration shop that does both cloisonn? and enamel
>>> repair is the only qualified place to know for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My unsolicited 2 cents.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>> -------------- next part --------------
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 21:22:25 -0700
>>> From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> To: healeys@autox.team.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lift for Healeys
>>> Message-ID: <c7c79a42-e435-29cb-f09b-4b8de505833e@comcast.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>>>
>>> I've been a bit distracted by recent events, but I'm still researching
>>> lifts.? I called the '800' number for Greg Smith lifts, and talked a guy
>>> that (I think) was a distributor in Riverside, CA.? I mentioned I would
>>> prefer an American-made lift and he let slip--or was just being
>>> forthright, I can't say for sure--that all lifts save Mohawk brand were
>>> made in China (probably, they are made in China in one or a few
>>> factories but are distributed under various brands; the Greg Smith site
>>> cites a 'Texas company;'? check it out for some 'dirt' on lifts).? I'd
>>> not heard of Mohawk but, of course, I immediately stated googlin'. The
>>> Mohawk site has issues, but has some, er, 'interesting' information (see
>>> here:
>>>
>>> http://mohawkliftpics.com/product-pictures/2-post-lifts/a-7/
>>>
>>> ... and look, in particular, under 'Comparison Photo Galleries'
>>>
>>> One option is for 4 wheel cradles that effectively turn the lift into a
>>> 4-post.?? I really like this idea.
>>>
>>> The Mohawk site doesn't list any prices, so it's one of those 'if you
>>> have to ask' things.? But, I'm OK buying a cheap made-in-China tool from
>>> Harbor Freight that probably will leak air but I might use 6 times in my
>>> lifetime, but getting under a lift with plastic wheels and cables, and
>>> welds that break makes me nervous.
>>>
>>> Just passing what I've learned along.? This is a significant investment
>>> for me, and I'm inclined to spend extra up front for peace of mind.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>>>> On 10/14/2018 12:16 PM, Kent McLean wrote:
>>>>> Bob Spidell wrote:
>>>>> Space isn't an issue; my dad built a large 'barn'--that's what it's
>>>>> shaped like, and what we call it--but it's really a large shop
>>>>> URL:
>>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181014/0d66a155/attachment-0001.jpe>
>>>> Wow. Who did you have to kill for that? I mean, Wow, nice shop.
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago we bought a house with a 32x24 barn (with a few stalls for
>>>> horses). A year later my wife peeked in and said, ?It looks like we?ve
>>>> lived here for 20 years.? I really need to start tossing some of my
>>>> "treasures" so my kids don?t have to.
>>>>
>>>> -
>>>> Kent McLean
>>>> ?56 100 BN2
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:18:20 +0000
>>> From: Richard Collins <gonnagitcha90@hotmail.com>
>>> To: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
>>> Cc: "healeys@autox.team.net" <healeys@autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Healeys] Lift for Healeys
>>> Message-ID:
>>>
>>> <SN6PR19MB22565C3FDECC279F731B3653BFF60@SN6PR19MB2256.namprd19.prod.outlook.com>
>>>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> My Rotary Revolution 4post was Made in America when I bought and assembled
>>> myself 10-12 years ago.
>>> I did substantial research and found the critical points, Chinese or not,
>>> was the weight of the steel used and the locking mechanism being failsafe
>>> as possible. A Chinese one I saw had ramps which Bent when driven on and
>>> off with a vehicle whose weight was well within its specs.
>>> I went to several ?good guys? hot rod shows and looked at various models on
>>> display. The quality differences are noticeable. The higher quality ones
>>> have certifications and insurance coverage as well.
>>> Mine has paid for itself many times over.
>>> Regards,
>>> Richard C
>>> BN7 440
>>> And several other brands
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 24, 2018, at 1:23 AM, Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I've been a bit distracted by recent events, but I'm still researching
>>>> lifts. I called the '800' number for Greg Smith lifts, and talked a guy
>>>> that (I think) was a distributor in Riverside, CA. I mentioned I would
>>>> prefer an American-made lift and he let slip--or was just being
>>>> forthright, I can't say for sure--that all lifts save Mohawk brand were
>>>> made in China (probably, they are made in China in one or a few factories
>>>> but are distributed under various brands; the Greg Smith site cites a
>>>> 'Texas company;' check it out for some 'dirt' on lifts). I'd not heard
>>>> of Mohawk but, of course, I immediately stated googlin'. The Mohawk site
>>>> has issues, but has some, er, 'interesting' information (see here:
>>>>
>>>> http://mohawkliftpics.com/product-pictures/2-post-lifts/a-7/
>>>>
>>>> ... and look, in particular, under 'Comparison Photo Galleries'
>>>>
>>>> One option is for 4 wheel cradles that effectively turn the lift into a
>>>> 4-post. I really like this idea.
>>>>
>>>> The Mohawk site doesn't list any prices, so it's one of those 'if you have
>>>> to ask' things. But, I'm OK buying a cheap made-in-China tool from Harbor
>>>> Freight that probably will leak air but I might use 6 times in my
>>>> lifetime, but getting under a lift with plastic wheels and cables, and
>>>> welds that break makes me nervous.
>>>>
>>>> Just passing what I've learned along. This is a significant investment
>>>> for me, and I'm inclined to spend extra up front for peace of mind.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/14/2018 12:16 PM, Kent McLean wrote:
>>>>>> Bob Spidell wrote:
>>>>>> Space isn't an issue; my dad built a large 'barn'--that's what it's
>>>>>> shaped like, and what we call it--but it's really a large shop
>>>>>> URL:
>>>>>> <http://autox.team.net/pipermail/healeys/attachments/20181014/0d66a155/attachment-0001.jpe>
>>>>> Wow. Who did you have to kill for that? I mean, Wow, nice shop.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few years ago we bought a house with a 32x24 barn (with a few stalls
>>>>> for horses). A year later my wife peeked in and said, ?It looks like
>>>>> we?ve lived here for 20 years.? I really need to start tossing some of
>>>>> my "treasures" so my kids don?t have to.
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Kent McLean
>>>>> ?56 100 BN2
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>>>
>>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
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>>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Subject: Digest Footer
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> End of Healeys Digest, Vol 11, Issue 325
>>> ****************************************
>>
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