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Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem

To: triumphs@autox.team.net, Roger Elliott <elliottr@rmi.net>
Subject: Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem
From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:31:04 -0800
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: triumphs@autox.team.net
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gotta ask... as I've BTDT....

take a GOOD look at the socket itself.
on many, the metal body and the little tang that touches the bulb base
are NOT one piece of metal.  Tarnish (read  a  bad connection) can result
where they are riveted/in contact with one another.

On mine, I ended up taking a small section of 22-24 GA multi-stranded wire
and made a loop that wrapped under/behind the tang, with the other
end wrapped around one of the fingers that wedge/plug it into the housing
to obtain a reliable ground.  I've never has an issue since.

ptegler

On 11/12/2019 2:38 PM, Roger Elliott wrote:
>
> I decided to give up on the issue.
>
> There did not seem to be much of a voltage drop across the battery - 
> about .05 volts as near as I could make out.  It's possible that 
> either the meter or myself were not quick enough to read accurately.
>
> As far as I could tell there is not a ground terminal on the sockets.  
> There was about .009 volts between the lamp housing and the battery.  
> I did run additional wires from the lamp housing to a ground (to the 
> tank mounting bolts).
>
> The brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals, in 
> opposition, got brighter when the turn signals were off.
>
> Tested the lights with regular brake lights instead of LEDs. I noticed 
> the brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals.  This is 
> when I decided to give up and just live with it.
>
> Oh, the third brake light that I have wired in - power from the brake 
> lights and grounded to the body flash when ever the brake lights and 
> turn signals are on (like the brake/tail lights in opposition.
>
> Thanks for your help.
> Roger
>
> On 11/3/2019 4:37 PM, Randall wrote:
>>
>> Yes, thatâ??s the idea.  You want all the lights on (including turn 
>> signals) during this test.
>>
>> What youâ??re looking at is how much voltage drop there is through the 
>> ground path.
>>
>> -- Randall
>>
>> *Sent: *Sunday, November 3, 2019 1:26 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem
>>
>> HI Randall,
>>
>> Thanks for the information and the tests.
>>
>> I just want to check something on the tests since my electrical 
>> trouble shooting ability is very limited.
>>
>> This section is also done with the lights on, right?:
>>
>> To check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the 
>> negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you can 
>> connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you can probe at 
>> the rear lights, to see how well they are actually grounded.  0.2 
>> volt is probably acceptable, anything more than that represents a 
>> problem that could be fixed.
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Roger
>>
>> On 11/2/19 4:07 PM, Randall wrote:
>>
>>     There may not be a good solution, Roger.  The incandescent turn
>>     signals draw a fair amount of current, which is likely more than
>>     the stock alternator can deliver (along with tail lights and so
>>     on) at idle. So it may be that the battery voltage is dropping
>>     from 13+ volts (alternator supplying all power to car) to  12.6
>>     volts (battery supplying some of the power) and the LEDs youâ??re
>>     using are sensitive enough to show the difference in voltage.
>>
>>     To check, connect a good voltmeter or DMM to the battery, then
>>     watch what it does when the tail lights and flashers are both
>>     on.  If Iâ??m right, youâ??ll see the battery voltage sag in time
>>     with the turn signals. The only fix would be to convert to a more
>>     modern alternator, that can keep up with the lights at idle. (Iâ??m
>>     not certain, but I think there is a Lester unit that would look
>>     and fit the same as the stock Lucas but give more current across
>>     the board.  Check with the Jaguar folks.)
>>
>>     Another fix might be LEDs that use an active current source (so
>>     are much less sensitive to supply voltage), but I have no idea
>>     where to buy such things.  I made my own using a simple
>>     2-transistor active current limiter.
>>
>>     To check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the
>>     negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you can
>>     connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you can probe
>>     at the rear lights, to see how well they are actually grounded. 
>>     0.2 volt is probably acceptable, anything more than that
>>     represents a problem that could be fixed.
>>
>>     Iâ??m not sure how the TR250 tail lights are wired.  On my TR3, all
>>     the rear lamps ground only through their mounting screws, which
>>     go into clip nuts fastened to the sheet metal.  Very insecure,
>>     especially if the sheet metal has a fresh coat of paint.
>>
>>     However, each lamp has a terminal inside the housing for a ground
>>     wire.  So, I made up a ground wire that daisy-chains across all
>>     the rear lamp holders, then leads around the trunk to one of the
>>     fuel tank mounting bolts.
>>
>>     -- Randall
>>
>>     *Sent: *Friday, November 1, 2019 12:50 PM
>>     *Subject: *[TR] TR250 LED tail light problem
>>
>>     Here's the problem.  When the tail lights are on and I use the
>>     flasher,
>>
>>     the tail/brake lights flicker with the flasher.  They don't go on
>>     and
>>
>>     off but the get brighter and dimmer. When the third brake light is
>>
>>     hooked up it does the same thing.
>>
>
> ** triumphs@autox.team.net **
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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-- 
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net  www.teglerizer.com


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    <p>gotta ask... as I've BTDT....    <br>
    </p>
    <p>take a GOOD look at the socket itself.<br>
      on many, the metal body and the little tang that touches the bulb
      base <br>
      are NOT one piece of metal.  Tarnish (read  a  bad connection) can
      result <br>
      where they are riveted/in contact with one another.</p>
    <p>On mine, I ended up taking a small section of 22-24 GA
      multi-stranded wire <br>
      and made a loop that wrapped under/behind the tang, with the other<br>
      end wrapped around one of the fingers that wedge/plug it into the
      housing<br>
      to obtain a reliable ground.  I've never has an issue since.<br>
    </p>
    <p>ptegler</p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/12/2019 2:38 PM, Roger Elliott
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:2cb3eba4-8d02-88ad-16d3-5a8502224c52@rmi.net">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <p>I decided to give up on the issue.  <br>
      </p>
      <p>There did not seem to be much of a voltage drop across the
        battery - about .05 volts as near as I could make out.  It's
        possible that either the meter or myself were not quick enough
        to read accurately.<br>
      </p>
      <p>As far as I could tell there is not a ground terminal on the
        sockets.  There was about .009 volts between the lamp housing
        and the battery.  I did run additional wires from the lamp
        housing to a ground (to the tank mounting bolts).<br>
      </p>
      <p>The brake/tail lights still varied with the turn signals, in
        opposition, got brighter when the turn signals were off.<br>
      </p>
      <p>Tested the lights with regular brake lights instead of LEDs. I
        noticed the brake/tail lights still varied with the turn
        signals.  This is when I decided to give up and just live with
        it.<br>
      </p>
      <p>Oh, the third brake light that I have wired in - power from the
        brake lights and grounded to the body flash when ever the brake
        lights and turn signals are on (like the brake/tail lights in
        opposition.<br>
        <br>
      </p>
      <p>Thanks for your help.<br>
        Roger<br>
      </p>
      <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/3/2019 4:37 PM, Randall wrote:<br>
      </div>
      <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:201911031737.1Irovm8t23PGoUj1@ibscan-princeton.atl.sa.earthlink.net">
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          <p class="MsoNormal">Yes, thatâ??s the idea.  You want all the
            lights on (including turn signals) during this test.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">What youâ??re looking at is how much
            voltage drop there is through the ground path.</p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal">-- Randall<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div
            style="mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-top:solid
            #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="border:none;padding:0in"><b>From:
              </b><a href="mailto:elliottr@rmi.net";
                moz-do-not-send="true">Roger Elliott</a><br>
              <b>Sent: </b>Sunday, November 3, 2019 1:26 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
                moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [TR] TR250 LED tail light problem</p>
          </div>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">HI Randall,</span></p>
          <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">Thanks for the information
              and the tests.</span></p>
          <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">I just want to check
              something on the tests since my electrical trouble
              shooting ability is very limited.</span></p>
          <p><span style="font-size:10.0pt">This section is also done
              with the lights on, right?:  </span></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">To
            check for grounding issues, I suggest running a wire to the
            negative battery terminal or negative starter cable, so you
            can connect the ground lead of your DMM to that.  Then you
            can probe at the rear lights, to see how well they are
            actually grounded.  0.2 volt is probably acceptable,
            anything more than that represents a problem that could be
            fixed.<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"> <br>
            Thanks,<br>
            Roger<o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
            
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal">On 11/2/19 4:07 PM, Randall 
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
            <p class="MsoNormal">There may not be a good solution,
              Roger.  The incandescent turn signals draw a fair amount
              of current, which is likely more than the stock alternator
              can deliver (along with tail lights and so on) at idle. 
              So it may be that the battery voltage is dropping from 13+
              volts (alternator supplying all power to car) to  12.6
              volts (battery supplying some of the power) and the LEDs
              youâ??re using are sensitive enough to show the difference
              in voltage.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">To check, connect a good voltmeter or
              DMM to the battery, then watch what it does when the tail
              lights and flashers are both on.  If Iâ??m right, youâ??ll see
              the battery voltage sag in time with the turn signals. 
              The only fix would be to convert to a more modern
              alternator, that can keep up with the lights at idle. 
              (Iâ??m not certain, but I think there is a Lester unit that
              would look and fit the same as the stock Lucas but give
              more current across the board.  Check with the Jaguar
              folks.)<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Another fix might be LEDs that use an
              active current source (so are much less sensitive to
              supply voltage), but I have no idea where to buy such
              things.  I made my own using a simple 2-transistor active
              current limiter.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">To check for grounding issues, I
              suggest running a wire to the negative battery terminal or
              negative starter cable, so you can connect the ground lead
              of your DMM to that.  Then you can probe at the rear
              lights, to see how well they are actually grounded.  0.2
              volt is probably acceptable, anything more than that
              represents a problem that could be fixed.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Iâ??m not sure how the TR250 tail lights
              are wired.  On my TR3, all the rear lamps ground only
              through their mounting screws, which go into clip nuts
              fastened to the sheet metal.  Very insecure, especially if
              the sheet metal has a fresh coat of paint.  <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">However, each lamp has a terminal
              inside the housing for a ground wire.  So, I made up a
              ground wire that daisy-chains across all the rear lamp
              holders, then leads around the trunk to one of the fuel
              tank mounting bolts.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">-- Randall<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
              1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
              <p class="MsoNormal"><b>From: </b><a
                  href="mailto:elliottr@rmi.net"; moz-do-not-send="true">Roger
                  Elliott</a><br>
                <b>Sent: </b>Friday, November 1, 2019 12:50 PM<br>
                <b>To: </b><a href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
                  moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a><br>
                <b>Subject: </b>[TR] TR250 LED tail light problem<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">Here's the problem.  When the tail
              lights are on and I use the flasher, <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">the tail/brake lights flicker with the
              flasher.  They don't go on and <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">off but the get brighter and dimmer. 
              When the third brake light is <o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal">hooked up it does the same 
thing.<o:p></o:p></p>
            <p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          </blockquote>
          <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:0in;margin-right:.5in;margin-bottom:5.0pt;margin-left:.5in"> <o:p></o:p></p>
          <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">** <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
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    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a>  <a 
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
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