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Gas Gauge Sender Float

To: british-cars@autox.team.net, joeg@sr.hp.com
Subject: Gas Gauge Sender Float
From: GORIN_JOE/HP5300_A0@opnmail2.corp.hp.com
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 18:51:00 +0000
phile@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Philip J Ethier), discussing Europa gas tanks, wrote:

> The [gas gauge sender] float
> is a sealed translucent plastic barrel shape.  It seems to be about 1/10
> filled with gasoline.  I can't see how it got in there, as there appear to
> be no leaks.  I can only assume it permeated the plastic.  I figure if it
> takes another 23 years to become 2/10 full, I can live with that.

This sounds like the float in my TR7 gas gauge sender--it is a sort of
beige translucent color.  The barrel has raised ends, like a bobbin of
thread.

The float is attached to the potentiometer with a stiff piece of steel
wire--thinner and stiffer than a coat hanger.  This wire makes a 330-
degree loop at its end that captures the float at the inside edge of
one of the raised ends of the float.

The wire is cut without taper at its end, and is thus slightly sharp.
This end digs into the translucent plastic and creates a (at first)
tiny hole.  The gasoline leaks through the hole.  When it leaks to
being 80% full, the piece becomes an unfloat.

I tried to fix mine with epoxy, and the epoxy dissolved in the gasoline
in less than a month.  Next, I fixed it with a "radiator and gas tank
repair" goo (I don't remember for certain, but I think it was two-part,
like epoxy) and it held for two or three years.  I finally purchased a
used sender ($35), merely to get the $.39 plastic float.  It has floated for
a few years now.

If I were you, I would replace the float now, as it sounds so very difficult
to get to normally.  I would doubt that the problem gets worse linearly
with time; it may be that the depth of hole gets worse linearly with time,
and that once it breaks through, the gas leakage rate is linear with hole
size, so that you may be on the edge of filling up your soon-to-be unfloat.

--Joe Gorin   joeg@sr.hp.com   '80 TR7 with working gas gauge
hopped a bus for the homestead.  

I wanted to get to the body lift.  I was unsure if I would be ready, but I
wanted to do it this weekend so I could take advantage of some time off
this week to work on the car with the body on.  I didn't want to call
everyone for the lift, and then call it off.

I started by vacuuming up all the debris in the nose, trunk and engine
areas of the body.  The area around the tanks and the pockets in the back
corners were especially troublesome.  Luckily, I could get right inside
the engine bay.

I went after the two-into-one fuel block, fuel pump and pressure regulator
on the custom rolled-edge alloy mounting plate (complete with little chef
picture) on the firewall.  The crappy fake-Aeroquip hoses were removed.
The pipe-thread fittings were all redone with Teflon tape.  The
metalized-foam heat pad was sandwiched to the firewall on the right side
by the through-bolted cookie sheet.

I phoned Terry Pitts to discuss the fuel fillers.  I had removed the silly
side-mounted ones, and had new filler necks from Bean.  Terry had wanted
to remove and glass over the boxes for the side mounts before the lift,
but I contended that you can't really reach anything from the backside
anyway.  Sawing the new holes in the stock position would be a real hassle
with the engine and tanks in the way, though.  Terry agreed to bring his
Europa around on Saturday for measuring.

I popped out Saturday morning to get a 2-7/8" hole saw.  I found out the
way to go was with a Sears mandrel (works in 3/8" drill chuck) and a
Milwaukee saw (Sears are more expensive and only come in 3"). 

Terry and I did some fancy measuring and drilled a small pilot hole in my
car's  just where the center of his filler lies.  I crawled underneath and
scoped out the "repair" that some PO did to fill the stock hole.  I could
make out the original hole imprint and saw that it was abut a quarter inch
further aft than Terry's.  We want to look at his car again, and saw that
the filler hose jogged a bit.  Apparently someone moved the center of
Terry's filler forward when they installed the Monza filler.  I decided to
stick with the factory on this one and put a second pilot further back.
Hint:  When using a hole saw with a 1/4-inch drill center in thin
fiberglass, use a separate 1/4-inch drill to open the hole first.  I
thought I could just open the hole with the 1/4-inch drill center in the
saw.  Wrong.  The drill catches in the glass and slams the saw into the
surface, stalling the drill motor.  It took no time at all to clean the
pilot hole, then we had no more trouble.

Just in the front of the hole was a finger-sized glob of resin where some
PO cleaned up after where another PO had put truck stop lights against the
rear window.  Sigh.  We took a piece of broken hacksaw blade and sawed it
flush with the bottom of the panel.  

Then we repeated the process for the right filler.  They fit both fine and
look stock.  Now, if they will just line up with the tank.

We came to the realization that there was really nothing to prevent us
from putting the body back on.  Terry left with the promise to return and
I started making phone calls.  This was a lot less notice than I expected
to give, but I got:

Larry Felsing, who started autocrossing even before I did.  Corvair and
Spridget in the old days and now an RX7.

Glenn Ciegler, who autocrosses a Europa in my soon-to-be class of AP.  I
introduced him to the sport three years ago so he could give me some
competition.  Well, actually, I never expected him to buy a Europa to go
with his Esprit.

Brian Martens, who autocrosses a Dutton, also in AP.  They both made jokes
about only being there to sabotage the car.

Bill Fuhrmann, Fiero pilot and member of TEAM.NET.

Mike Fitzpatrick, who dominates D Street Prepared hereabouts with his MGB.

Larry Ackerman, a coworker who restores late fifties Caddys.

Al Shetka, the manager of the Street Maintenance Division.  Al is not
really a close friend of mine, but he likes to lift things, so I called
his bluff.  All is a national trophy-winning amateur weight lifter in some
senior division.

And of course, Terry Pitts, president of LOON and a owner of three
Britcars, Europa, Jag V12 saloon and a round-arch Midget.

I can't thank them enough.

There were others that had expressed interest in the past, but I didn't
catch them at home or could not make it.

While waiting for the troops to arrive, I found a bolt for a locating
dowel.  There are two bobbins on the top of the tunnel where the dashboard
hits it.  Two 3/8-NF (UF for OFATP) bolts are to go through these to
tapped blocks in the frame.  I found a long bolt and hacksawed off the
head.  Then the sawed end was ground to a rounded shape.  The idea was to
get exact location, then take it out with a vice-grips when the other bolt
had been installed.

We had very little trouble.  Most of it was screwing around with the gas
tanks to get them in the holes.  Two of the closed-call foam pads on the
sides of the frame rolled up like Chilitos, so we lifted again so they
could be yanked out.  The holes all lined up fine.  The brake lines all
cleared.  Neat.

Most of the guys stuck around to bench race and drink cold Cokes.  The car
looked high.  In fact, it was higher than Glenn's Esprit Turbo, which he
brought in to show the guys.  This is probably because the suspension has
not settled.  There is some weight to add yet:  Radiator, coolant, gas
tanks, master cylinder, seats, dashboard, and wiring (not nearly as much
as was there!).  The decklids won't add much.

So now I embark on assembly and the manufacture of some parts.  I am
optimistic that it will be on the road.  Not for Bay Area netter Steve
Valin's visit next week, nor for the Wheels and Wings show at Classic
Motorbooks on the 11th,  but for the MOWOG autocross on the 26th.  I'm
taking some more vacation time, like this Tuesday and Thursday, and Ima
gonna do it.  I have owned a Lotus long enough.  It is time I drive it.

Phil Ethier, THE RIGHT LINE, 672 Orleans Street, Saint Paul, MN    55107-2676
h (612) 224-3105  w (612) 298-5324    phile@stpaul.gov                    USA
"There is nothing like a complete money-is-no-object restoration.  
And this is going to be nothing like one."  - Phil Ethier

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 13:56:34 BST
From: Mike Jeffreys <mjj@muppet.bt.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Followup on alternator

> I was out in Ca on vacation last week.  Before I left, I managed to
> pull the alternator on my '8 to check out the problem with the
> ignition light glowing - the brightness increasing with engine
> speed.  It turned out to be a pretty trivial problem; one of the
> diodes in the pack had a broken solder joint.  I resoldered it,
> cleaned the thing up, put it back in and it was fine.


Any chance of creating a Lucas Alternator FAQ?


BTW my TR7 has just acquired another alternator problem: the ignition
light has gone off; possible bad connection, hope I get home tonight!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:05:31 EDT
From: jhoward@atlas.usno.navy.mil (James Howard)
Subject: HRG Engineering


I went and dug up what I know about HRG last night.

>From 'Improve & Modify MGB', by Lindsay Porter & Dave Pollard, published by
Haynes.  Page 147:

        The HRG alloy crossflow head, originally made for the MGA
        series, never really caught on, although in principle it offered many
        benefits over the standard head.  On the standard head, the inlet and
        exhaust ports are on the same side, which means that the inlet ports
        have to be siamesed.  Also, the centre two exhaust ports have been
        joined together.  The HRG design gets away from multiple ports and, as
        can be seen here (2 photos), the inlet ports are now separate and on
        the side of the spark plugs.  Although the HRG company ceased
        production some time ago, the heads are being manufactured once more
        by a company who have bought the pattern rights.  The 'new' head
        achieves what the old originally failed to do, it actually improves
        performance!

The blurb neglects to mention the name of the company who bought the
rights.


James



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 08:46:48 CDT
From: mfrankfo@nebula.tbe.com
Subject: Re: MGB clutch & OD

I have driven a 1971 MGBGT for about 11 years now. I always engaged
the OD with the clutch engaged. If you will note the manual says
to never ever push the car backwards with the OD engaged. I took
the OD apart once and found some gears that rotate only one way.
Should a force be applied to reverse them, they would be destroyed.
So I guess if you were traveling at 55mph, disengaged the clutch
engaged the OD and released the clutch wo reving the engine, it might
put a reversing torque on those naughty gears.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 16:38:25 +0200
From: jell@km21.zfe.siemens.de (Thomas Jell)
Subject: Re: Clutch and OD

Ray,


It's not necessary to press the clutch when engaging the overdrive.

It's recommended to switch the overdrive not under heavy load situations as 
this adds additional wear to the internal OD hydraulic clutch. That's all.

>What harm
  Nothing, except some probably not noticable wear to the clutch and the 
bearings.


 Tom


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:48:50 CDT
From: mburdick@unmc.edu (Mike Burdick)
Subject: Re:  GT6/spitfire body swap

   > From: <woodruff@engin.umich.edu>

   > are the front body panels.  The frame was changed in the back, but I'm
   > not exactly sure where.  I think the shock towers were about and inch

One change at the rear (from Mk3 => 1500) was to add extentions to the
frame to support trunk (increase in overhang) and the beefier bumper. 
Don't know about the shock tower. 

mike
mburdick@unmc.edu

------------------------------

Date: 31 Aug 1993 10:39:59 U
From: "Rob Reilly" <reilly@admail.fnal.gov>
Subject: XK120 Moss Gearbox Problem

                       Subject:                               Time:9:54 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          XK120 Moss Gearbox Problem             Date:8/31/93
The 120 got its first test drive with the original JH trans. Seemed a little
difficult to get it into first and second, tendency to pop out of second. After
about half a mile of driving around my neighborhood, it got stuck in first
gear! Arrgh! Drove home 3 blocks in first, and into the garage. Fortunately I
hadn't bolted the trans tunnel down yet, so I pulled it and the trans top cover
off. The first gear was all the way back and the second gear synchro sleeve was
all the way forward, allowing the six spring-loaded balls and one plunger/ball
to come partially out and prevent the gears from returning to where they are
supposed to be. I got lucky in that none of the balls fell out. With a hammer
and prybar I got the gears back to neutral position without damaging anything.
 Now what? Is there any wisdom on the net as to why this happened, and what I
should do to prevent it happening again? Has anyone ever rebuilt a Moss box?
I've been studying the manual, and I have two theories.
1. worn plunger and ball in the second gear synchro sleeve, allowing the sleeve
to move forward when the first gear moves backward
2. fork in the top cover moving the first gear too far back. This also may
explain why it popped out of second. I don't know if there is any adjustment
possible in the fork.
Any ideas?



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 08:44:30 pdt
From: Roland Dudley <cobra@cdc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Re - Car Wax

> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 22:05:39 -0400 (EDT)
> From: GAKNUTSON@delphi.com
> Subject: Re - Car Wax
> To: british-cars@autox.team.net
> 
> Subject: Re - Car Wax
> 
> Jerry - 
> 
> >  I hear that the miracle silicon stuff soaks into the
> >  paint so that you can never really get it off or touch
> >  it up.
> 
> with it bubbling/peeling or anything.  Also, most people I have talked to
> on the question of a repaint tell me it is best to remove the paint to the
> metal even if you are going to repaint the same color - therefor - no big
> deal about the silicone "soaking" into the paint.

The argument against using silicone waxes and sealers I've heard was not
that it soaks into paint (which it apparently does), but that it leaves
an impossible to remove residue on the metal surface underneath.  This
residue supposedly can cause newly applied paint to "fisheye".  Silicone
wax is certainly easy to apply and it does look good.  I guess it a
matter of whether or not your willing to take the risk.

Roland

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:37:02 pdt
From: Roland Dudley <cobra@cdc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Gas tanks revisited

> From: phile@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Philip J Ethier)
> Subject: Gas tanks revisited
> To: british-cars@autox.team.net
> Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1993 13:20:59 -0500 (CDT)
> Cc: lotus-cars%netcom.com@uunet.UU.NET, phile@stpaul.gov
> 
> 
> Eastwood supplies the stuff, but they are not the cheapest place to get stuff.
> 
> I perused the catalog of good old J C Whitless.  About $25 brought me a
> kit containing Part A, a phosphoric acid concentrate, Part B, a small
> bottle of MEK (methyl ethyl keytone, a serious solvent) and a quart can of
> white tank-slosher goo using MEK as its volatile component.  Turns out to
> be "Kreem" brand.
>

Phil,  too late now but you can buy these kits at most motorcycle shops.
That's where I bought mine.  You pay a little more because the sealer
comes in pints instead of quarts but you get it right away and you don't
have to pay for shipping.

Roland 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 09:42:20 PDT
From: megatest!bldg2fs1!sfisher@uu2.psi.com (Scott Fisher)
Subject: Re: Audacity

> > Well, there's a lot in this article for a SOL'er to chew on.  The author's
> > viewpoint seems clear. Look at his choice of words, imperfectly, misguided,
> > hapless, & weird.
> 
> This paragraph suggests that you think the author is biased against the
> English and is wrong about his findings.  Stop me if I am reading you wrong.
> 
> My viewpoint is that he is smack on.  That's the way it happened.  British
> Phlemsucking Leland (thanks, Scott!) DID screw up at nearly every turn.
> They stopped the Healeys from making a faster Spridget because it would show
> up the MGB.  Is this stupid or what?

And they stopped Abingdon from building a faster MGB because it was
showing up the Stag.  And they stopped Triumph from building a more 
reliable Stag because it would have showed up the by-then smogged-to-
death E Type.  And they stopped building the E Type because, well, by
then nobody was buying British sports cars any more...

The British sports car story is the tale of brilliant, quirky, and
dedicated engineers who cobbled together fun, exciting prototypes of
cars people loved to drive, and the closed-minded, short-sighted,
and ultimately fatally arrogant blinkered Philistines who ruined the
companies those "boffins" founded.  I haven't read a history of Triumph,
but I'm familiar with the history of the Healeys and MG, and they share
almost identical demises.  The Healeys' story is compressed, but other
than that, you could almost sum it up in the old Hollywood terms:

Boy loves cars.  Boy builds cars.  Boy races cars, wins trophy.  Boy
makes more cars for friends.  Big business says, "Boy, make cars for 
us."  Boy makes lots of cars, goes racing, has to make race cars better
to keep winning.  Boy spends money.  Big business says, "Racing costs 
too much, why don't these cars sell like they did when we hired you?  The cars
haven't changed since then!"  Boy says, "But the world has."  Boy is sacked.
Big business makes same cars for 20 years.  Nobody buys cars.  Big business
gets nationalized, everyone taxed to bailout Sir Bletherskite-Sodd, K. B. B.
(Knight of Big Business).  Soon even Queen is taxed and Prince wishes to be
reincarnated as bimbo's trousers on taped telephone conversation.  Everyone
sad.  Except people who bought boy's cars when boy still worked in factory.
And Sir Bletherskite-Sodd, who lives in tax exile in Monte Carlo with money
made from taxes and from selling boy's cars.

- --Scott "But will it play in Peoria?" Fisher

------------------------------

Date:         31 Aug 93 08:41:34 
From: (Roger Garnett) rwg1@cornell.edu
Subject:      Re: Audacity

> From:          phile@pwcs.stpaul.gov (Philip J Ethier)
> To:            thcollin@mtu.edu (Timothy Collins)

> > engineered TO DEATH, The story of the British Sports Car."  Page 17 carries 
>a
> > story titled; "Defeating the Triumph, the decline of the British Sports Car
> > Empire."  Here are a few lines from the article. First a by-line:
> > "How the English automotive industry lucked into a lucrative U.S. franchise
> > without knowing why, and then threw it away."

> "Leave it to the British to invent something, get pretty good at it and
> then let somebody else beat them.

Not that the US auto makers didn't do the same, but they seem to be
recovering.

Just take a look at this summers "British Car" magazine for the section
titled "Lost Leylands"- Hard evidence of several very interesting
engineering projects, some of which were almost in production, with large
amounts of money spent, only to be squashed by the B-PS-L management.
Rover, MG, Triumph, Jag. They all suffered. BPSL couldn't see producing any
model that might compete with anything else in their line, and ended up
killing almost everything, rather than having a variety of models able to
compete for market niches. Just the opposite of some very successful
marketing stratigies. Look at Coke- they don't pare down to one model, they
make a wide range of similar product to cater to every taste, and grab a
larger chunk of shelf space in the process. Britian's array of auto
manufacturers did just this in the 50's and 60's.

Just think how boring the Matchbox catalogue would have been with only 1-5
to dream about! Many's the time I spent drooling over those pages, or
pausing at the display in the store window while walking home from from
school, trying to figure where to spend my next 50 cents. I never got rid
of any of those matchbox cars, which provided so many hours of enjoyment.
Most of them even have their blue & yellow boxes. In fact, I think I'm
still doing it today. But, the catalogue now contains hundreds of
full size LBC's, and my storage box is full, but I have my eye on number
59...

            Roger -I need a bigger barn- Garnett


------------------------------

Date: 31 AUG 93 12:56   
From: TUSLER%MP050@eccsa.Tredydev.Unisys.com
Subject: Capillary Temp Gauge

I'm back from vacation in France, where I saw many Minis, Triumphs,
a few MGs, and a late model Aston Martin ('twasn't a Lagonda, looked
more like a DB-?)
 As I left in July, TINTIN's starter was dying. I dismantled the thing
only to find that the armature was shorted to the body. No way to undo
those screws holding the armatures in. $112 later, I have a fully rebuilt
starter. But we're not off the block (Or blocks!) yet...

Well, either TINTIN (My '66 MGBGT) was running cooler and cooler, or
my temp gauge was going south. Two guesses.  Since MOSS has none in
stock, and West Valley Speedo is moving and can't do anything for two
weeks and I need my car NOW!, I decided to take the fool's route and
attempt a diagnostic and perhaps repair. Removing the Gauge (Combined
oil pressure and water temp!) I boiled some water (No, we didn't
tear bedsheets into strips!) to determine that, yes indeed, the gauge
claimed that water boils at 140 degrees.
 Immersing the entire length of the capillary tube showed evidence of
bubbles at the Sender/tube juncture. An attempt to solder it caused
bubbling at the joint, and an even worse seal, plus the smell of
diethyl ether. Soldering it with the sender immersed in an ice bath
delivered a good seal, but not a functional gauge. Apparently all of
the fluid had boiled away.
 Does anyone know what the fluid in a capillary-tube temperature gauge
is? (DiEthyl Ether?). And where can you get about 5cc of it?
 I tried Methyl Ethyl Ketone, as the solvent with the highest vapor
pressure that I had on hand, but that resulted in water boiling at
100, Farenheit (O.K., so now I have a celsius gauge?)
 And how do you recalibrate that little Bourdon tube after fiddling
with it? (I HAD to open the gauge to look at it, didn't I?)



Well, either TINTIN (My '66 MGBGT) was running cooler and cooler, or
my temp gauge was going south. Two guesses.  Since MOSS has none in
stock, and West Valley Speedo is moving and can't do anything for two
weeks and I need my car NOW!, I decided to take the fool's route and
attempt a diagnostic and perhaps repair. Removing the Gauge (Combined
oil pressure and water temp!) I boiled some water (No, we didn't
tear bedsheets into strips!) to determine that, yes indeed, the gauge
claimed that water boils at 140 degrees.
 Immersing the entire length of the capillary tube showed evidence of
bubbles at the Sender/tube juncture. An attempt to solder it caused
bubbling at the joint, and an even worse seal, plus the smell of
diethyl ether. Soldering it with the sender immersed in an ice bath
delivered a good seal, but not a functional gauge. Apparently all of
the fluid had boiled away.
 Does anyone know what the fluid in a capillary-tube temperature gauge
is? (DiEthyl Ether?). And where can you get about 5cc of it?
 I tried Methyl Ethyl Ketone, as the solvent with the highest vapor
pressure that I had on hand, but that resulted in water boiling at
100, Farenheit (O.K., so now I have a celsius gauge?)
 And how do you recalibrate that little Bourdon tube after fiddling
with it? (I HAD to open the gauge to look at it, didn't I?)


       "Happiness is driving a car old enough and open enough
        that even driving the speed limit is a thrill!"
************************************************************************
*Philippe Tusler - El Toro, CA             "MILOU"    '57 MGA Roadster *
*A-Mail:   <TUSLER@MP050>                  "TINTIN"   '66 MG/MGB-GT    *
*InterNet: TUSLER@MP050.MV-OC.unisys.com   "N/A"      '88 ISUZU Trooper*
************************************************************************


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Aug 93 12:11:18 -0500
From: lesnyd@bb1t.monsanto.com (Larry E. Snyder lesnyd@monsanto.com 
314-694-3626)
Subject: Matchbox LBCs


Roger Garnett's mention of Matchbox cars reminded me of something. I saw
some "Special Edition" matchbox cars at WalMart the other day. These 
cars are made from the original molds from the 50s. They come with their
own blue and yellow box. Apparently, there are only 5 of these special
castings - and 2 are LBCs.

The first is an XK-140. It is green, at least all the ones I saw were. The
second is an MGA. The package says it's an MG Midget TD. Looks like an MGA
to me. I  forget what color it is...

Anyway, they are $1.97 each. I'm going to pick up a couple just to save.

Larry

------------------------------


End of British Cars Digest
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