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Re: [Healeys] BJ8 at RM Hershey auction

To: Curtis Arndt <cnaarndt@gmail.com>, "healeys@autox.team.net" <healeys@autox.team.net>, BJ8Healeys <sbyers@ec.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] BJ8 at RM Hershey auction
From: Charlie Baldwin <mgcharlie@comcast.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 09:04:31 -0400
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: healeys@autox.team.net
References: <cd06fb95-9d73-901c-ae20-84dac7a4e5c9@comcast.net> <46d8c3f2-a66c-9a9c-564a-880ffe6118a8@comcast.net> <012c01d46488$9231bcd0$b6953670$@rr.com> <1054517382.349153.1539611917523@connect.xfinity.com> <CAJKrNeRwXQXhxHnGz2AzHj-MBOB8Vo53stipqQ0DKPovgfVDoA@mail.gmail.com> <ed78aecc-16c5-a6fa-b008-9c364553f582@comcast.net> <CAJKrNeTFQQ7=6Dv__Xsx-axUKpoT6xf2iB_2i-PVF=EVyLz2=A@mail.gmail.com>
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 From what I understand, earlier 3000s have a number stamped there, but 
it doesn't match any other other number on the car, but BJ8s do have the 
chassis number there.


On 10/15/2018 8:06 PM, Curtis Arndt wrote:
> So Charlie,
>
> Yes, 3000s should have the chassis number stamped on the right front 
> shock tower.
>
> To be clear, Phase I BJ8's (1964) looked very similar to BJ7's.  They 
> had _glass_ "Beehive" front parking/side and rear stop lights, 
> reflectors, the pull versus the push-button door handles and the lower 
> rear axle.  They DID have the wood dash and of course the larger 
> engine making them BJ8s not BJ7s.
>
> Here's a nice example in Black w/red interior...
>
> https://www.erclassics.com/austin-healey-3000-bj8-1964-a0747/#lg=1&slide=13
>
> Now Phase II BJ8's came in a number of variations.  When they first 
> came out in 1964-5 they now had the single plastic lights front and 
> rear with the reflectors, the jacked up rear end, and push button door 
> handles.
>
> Here's another nice example in Black w/red interior...
>
> https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo17/auction/lots/r169-1964-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8-phase-ii
>
> In '66 and '67 we have the final version with all plastic lights, two 
> front and two rear.
>
> One final example in Black over Red w/ a red interior...
>
> https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/detail/austinhealey-3000-544721
>
> This should clear things up.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Curt
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 3:49 PM Charlie Baldwin <mgcharlie@comcast.net 
>
>     So Curt, you may be saying that this car does not match what a car
>     with that chassis number should look like. Don't BJ8s have the
>     chassis number stamped on the right front shock mount?  So it may
>     be titled with the wrong chassis number.  That is a greater
>     concern to me than being the wrong color or having poorly fitting
>     seat covers.  The poorly stamped chassis number plate could be
>     part of the issue also.
>
>     When I saw it on the screen when it came up for auction, I thought
>     that it probably isn't really a '65 due to the double parking/ts
>     lights.  Then I figured it was just an error on the year they put
>     on the title.  But this is much more serious an issue since the
>     chassis number does not indicate it is a Phase 2 BJ8, when it
>     definitely looks like one.
>
>     Charlie
>
>
>     On 10/15/2018 1:04 PM, Curtis Arndt wrote:
>>     FWIW...
>>
>>     Obviously, there are some issues with this car.
>>
>>     Regarding the seats, I agree, the fit is terrible and that also
>>     brings up another issue in that the vast majority of US delivered
>>     convertibles came with vinyl interiors, and it was a very rare
>>     option to have leather seats. I don't know the percentage off the
>>     top of my head, but it may have been less than 5%.  I will check.
>>
>>     <Leather on BJ8â??s was an option on home market cars (England).
>>     Very few original American LHD BJ8 have been observed with
>>     leather seats -- â??Leather trim for seats, armrest and rear
>>     folding squabsâ?? was listed as an available option for BJ8's.>
>>
>>     For me the biggest potential issue is that this car is supposedly
>>     a 1965 (chassis no. _30659_), and as such it would have had the
>>     single plastic side lights up front and also in the rear, with
>>     reflectors instead of the second set of amber plastic turn signal
>>     lights?
>>
>>     From the 2018 Guidelines...
>>
>>     <BJ8s from Car No. 26705 have a single front parking/turn flasher
>>     unit with a white plastic lens that is larger and flatter in
>>     profile (Lucas type 692), up through Phase II BJ8 (C) _31337_ (B)
>>     76137.
>>
>>     Rear combination tail/turn signal/brake lights with a single
>>     beehive-shaped red lens, on the fender just above the bumper,
>>     were used on all Healeys up to Phase II BJ8 Car No. _31336_ (B)
>>     76138 (type 594 on 100-6 and 3000s to c. 26704).  With that car,
>>     the upper reflectors were replaced with separate turn-signal
>>     lights (with a larger body fairing) and amber plastic lenses and
>>     the lower lights were replaced with tail/brake lights with red
>>     plastic lenses. Both upper and lower lights on these later cars
>>     were Lucas type 692 through the end of production.>
>>     Did anyone else notice in the very first photo the right front
>>     wing wheel opening?  The metal work looks a bit inconsistent and
>>     the opening is not consistently round? Compare to the right rear
>>     wheel opening.  Maybe it's the angle of the photo, I don't know? 
>>     The left front opening looks much better.
>>
>>     All this said, it's easy to pick a car apart and overall, any
>>     criticisms can be repaired, albeit at a cost, but then the high
>>     bid of $67.5K may reflect these observations. It is an overall
>>     good looking car none the less, even with its flaws.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>
>>     Curt
>>
>>     On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:45 AM Charlie Baldwin
>>
>>         Steve, I'm glad you have it in the registry.
>>         Someone told me on Saturday at the Hershey car show that it
>>         was restored there, but I didn't know for sure, so didn't
>>         want to credit/blame them.
>>         It appears that leather seat covers were installed, but not
>>         very well as someone else mentioned.
>>
>>
>>         > On October 15, 2018 at 9:11 AM BJ8Healeys <sbyers@ec.rr.com
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > Charlie Baldwin:  strange that I never received your
>>         original message via the list (yet).
>>         >
>>         > Yes, I have the car in the registry.  One previous owner
>>         recorded in New Hampshire (AHCA member 1990 - 1999), then
>>         restoration by Knut Holzer's BMC Classics in April 2008.
>>         >
>>         > Steve Byers
>>         > HBJ8L/36666
>>         > BJ8 Registry
>>         > AHCA Delegate at Large
>>         > Havelock, NC
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > -----Original Message-----
>>         > From: Healeys [mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net
>>         > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:44 PM
>>         > Subject: Re: [Healeys] BJ8 at RM Hershey auction
>>         >
>>         > Not MGB, but 'champagne.'  Was that an original color? 
>>         This one came
>>         > from the factory in white; maybe that's why it didn't sell?
>>         >
>>         > Not the best seat upholstery I've seen, and is the shift
>>         lever bent, or
>>         > is it an illusion?  And the fluid reservoir spoils an
>>         otherwise nice
>>         > engine bay presentation.  Nice car, nonetheless.
>>         >
>>         > Bob
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > On 10/14/2018 8:17 AM, Charlie Baldwin wrote:
>>         > > Here is a Metallic Golden Beige BJ8 that was in the
>>         auction, but
>>         > > apparently didn't make reserve.  I think the hammer price
>>         was
>>         > > $67,500.  Comments anyone?  Steve Byers, is this one in
>>         your register?
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         
>> https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf18/hershey/lots/r0137-1965-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8/721386
>>
>>         > >
>>         > >
>>         >
>>         > _______________________________________________
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>>         >
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>>         >
>>         >
>>         > _______________________________________________
>>         > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>         > Suggested annual donation  $12.75
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>>         http://autox.team.net/archive
>>         >
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>>         >
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>>         Suggested annual donation  $12.75
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>


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    <p>From what I understand, earlier 3000s have a number stamped
      there, but it doesn't match any other other number on the car, but
      BJ8s do have the chassis number there.<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/15/2018 8:06 PM, Curtis Arndt
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAJKrNeTFQQ7=6Dv__Xsx-axUKpoT6xf2iB_2i-PVF=EVyLz2=A@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr">
          <div dir="ltr">
            <div dir="ltr">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div dir="ltr">So Charlie,
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Yes, 3000s should have the chassis number stamped
                    on the right front shock tower. <br>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>To be clear, Phase I BJ8's (1964) looked very
                      similar to BJ7's.  They had <u>glass</u>
                      "Beehive" front parking/side and rear stop lights,
                      reflectors, the pull versus the push-button door
                      handles and the lower rear axle.  They DID have
                      the wood dash and of course the larger engine
                      making them BJ8s not BJ7s.</div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Here's a nice example in Black w/red
                      interior...  <br>
                    </div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div><a
href="https://www.erclassics.com/austin-healey-3000-bj8-1964-a0747/#lg=1&amp;slide=13";
                        
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.erclassics.com/austin-healey-3000-bj8-1964-a0747/#lg=1&amp;slide=13</a></div>
                    <div><br>
                    </div>
                    <div>Now Phase II BJ8's came in a number of
                      variations.  When they first came out in 1964-5
                      they now had the single plastic lights front and
                      rear with the reflectors, the jacked up rear end,
                      and push button door handles.</div>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Here's another nice example in Black w/red
                    interior...</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><a
href="https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo17/auction/lots/r169-1964-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8-phase-ii";
                      
moz-do-not-send="true">https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/mo17/auction/lots/r169-1964-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8-phase-ii</a><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>In '66 and '67 we have the final version with all
                    plastic lights, two front and two rear.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>One final example in Black over Red w/ a red
                    interior...</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><a
href="https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/detail/austinhealey-3000-544721";
                      
moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.tradeuniquecars.com.au/detail/austinhealey-3000-544721</a><br>
                  </div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>This should clear things up.</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Cheers,</div>
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Curt</div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 3:49 PM Charlie Baldwin
          &lt;<a href="mailto:mgcharlie@comcast.net"; target="_blank"
            moz-do-not-send="true">mgcharlie@comcast.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
          .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
          <div text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
            <p>So Curt, you may be saying that this car does not match
              what a car with that chassis number should look like. 
              Don't BJ8s have the chassis number stamped on the right
              front shock mount?  So it may be titled with the wrong
              chassis number.  That is a greater concern to me than
              being the wrong color or having poorly fitting seat
              covers.  The poorly stamped chassis number plate could be
              part of the issue also.</p>
            <p>When I saw it on the screen when it came up for auction,
              I thought that it probably isn't really a '65 due to the
              double parking/ts lights.  Then I figured it was just an
              error on the year they put on the title.  But this is much
              more serious an issue since the chassis number does not
              indicate it is a Phase 2 BJ8, when it definitely looks
              like one.</p>
            <p>Charlie<br>
            </p>
            <br>
            <div
              
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262moz-cite-prefix">On
              10/15/2018 1:04 PM, Curtis Arndt wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote type="cite">
              <div dir="ltr">
                <div>FWIW...</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                Obviously, there are some issues with this car.  
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Regarding the seats, I agree, the fit is terrible
                  and that also brings up another issue in that the vast
                  majority of US delivered convertibles came with vinyl
                  interiors, and it was a very rare option to have
                  leather seats. I don't know the percentage off the top
                  of my head, but it may have been less than 5%.  I will
                  check.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">&lt;Leather
                    on BJ8â??s was an option on home market cars
                    (England). Very few original American LHD BJ8 have
                    been observed with leather seats -- </span><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle2"
style="font-family:Arial-BoldMT;font-size:10pt;font-weight:bold;color:rgb(0,0,0)">â??Leather
                    trim for seats, armrest and rear folding squabsâ?? 
</span><span
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
                    
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">was
                    listed as an available option for BJ8's.&gt;</span><br
style="font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto">
                </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>For me the biggest potential issue is that this car
                  is supposedly a 1965 (chassis no. <u>30659</u>), and
                  as such it would have had the single plastic side
                  lights up front and also in the rear, with reflectors
                  instead of the second set of amber plastic turn signal
                  lights?  </div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>From the 2018 Guidelines...</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">&lt;</span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt">BJ8s
                    from Car No. 26705 have a single front parking/turn
                    flasher unit with a </span><span
                    
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt">white
                    plastic lens that is larger and flatter in profile
                    (Lucas type 692), up </span><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">through
                    Phase II BJ8 (C) <u>31337</u> (B) 76137.</span></div>
                <div><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br>
                  </span></div>
                <div><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Rear
                    combination tail/turn signal/brake lights with a
                    single beehive-shaped red lens, on the fender just
                    above the bumper, were used on all Healeys up to
                    Phase II BJ8 Car No. <u>31336</u> (B) 76138 (type
                    594 on 100-6 and 3000s to c. 26704).  With that car,
                    the upper reflectors were replaced with separate
                    turn-signal lights (with a larger body fairing) and
                    amber plastic lenses and the lower lights were </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt">replaced  </span><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt">with
                    tail/brake lights with red plastic lenses. Both
                    upper and lower lights </span><span
                    
class="m_-2897248659280525698m_-1532920764489079262gmail-fontstyle0"
style="font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">on
                    these later cars were Lucas type 692 through the end
                    of production.&gt;</span></div>
                <div>  </div>
                <div>Did anyone else notice in the very first photo the
                  right front wing wheel opening?  The metal work looks
                  a bit inconsistent and the opening is not consistently
                  round? Compare to the right rear wheel opening.  Maybe
                  it's the angle of the photo, I don't know?  The left
                  front opening looks much better.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>All this said, it's easy to pick a car apart and
                  overall, any criticisms can be repaired, albeit at a
                  cost, but then the high bid of $67.5K may reflect
                  these observations. It is an overall good looking car
                  none the less, even with its flaws.</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Cheers,</div>
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Curt</div>
              </div>
              <br>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <div dir="ltr">On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:45 AM Charlie
                  Baldwin &lt;<a href="mailto:mgcharlie@comcast.net";
                    target="_blank" 
moz-do-not-send="true">mgcharlie@comcast.net</a>&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                </div>
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
                  .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Steve,
                  I'm glad you have it in the registry.<br>
                  Someone told me on Saturday at the Hershey car show
                  that it was restored there, but I didn't know for
                  sure, so didn't want to credit/blame them.<br>
                  It appears that leather seat covers were installed,
                  but not very well as someone else mentioned.<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  &gt; On October 15, 2018 at 9:11 AM BJ8Healeys &lt;<a
                    href="mailto:sbyers@ec.rr.com"; target="_blank"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">sbyers@ec.rr.com</a>&gt;
                  wrote:<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Charlie Baldwin:  strange that I never received
                  your original message via the list (yet).<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Yes, I have the car in the registry.  One
                  previous owner recorded in New Hampshire (AHCA member
                  1990 - 1999), then restoration by Knut Holzer's BMC
                  Classics in April 2008.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Steve Byers<br>
                  &gt; HBJ8L/36666<br>
                  &gt; BJ8 Registry<br>
                  &gt; AHCA Delegate at Large<br>
                  &gt; Havelock, NC  <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
                  &gt; From: Healeys [mailto:<a
                    href="mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net";
                    target="_blank" 
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys-bounces@autox.team.net</a>]
                  On Behalf Of Bob Spidell<br>
                  &gt; Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2018 12:44 PM<br>
                  &gt; To: <a href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
                    target="_blank" 
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a><br>
                  &gt; Subject: Re: [Healeys] BJ8 at RM Hershey auction<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Not MGB, but 'champagne.'  Was that an original
                  color?  This one came <br>
                  &gt; from the factory in white; maybe that's why it
                  didn't sell?<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Not the best seat upholstery I've seen, and is
                  the shift lever bent, or <br>
                  &gt; is it an illusion?  And the fluid reservoir
                  spoils an otherwise nice <br>
                  &gt; engine bay presentation.  Nice car, nonetheless.<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; Bob<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; On 10/14/2018 8:17 AM, Charlie Baldwin wrote:<br>
                  &gt; &gt; Here is a Metallic Golden Beige BJ8 that was
                  in the auction, but <br>
                  &gt; &gt; apparently didn't make reserve.  I think the
                  hammer price was <br>
                  &gt; &gt; $67,500.  Comments anyone?  Steve Byers, is
                  this one in your register?<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt; <a
href="https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf18/hershey/lots/r0137-1965-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8/721386";
                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                    
moz-do-not-send="true">https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/hf18/hershey/lots/r0137-1965-austin-healey-3000-mk-iii-bj8/721386</a>
                  <br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; &gt;<br>
                  &gt; <br>
                  &gt; _______________________________________________<br>
                  &gt; Support Team.Net <a
                    href="http://www.team.net/donate.html";
                    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
                    
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