Paul R. and all,
Congratulations to Norm on bringing together many of the most
historic cars and personalities in one place. I still cannot believe he
pulled it off. I am sure it took most of his time which unfortunately
probably reduced the time he could spend on other parts of the event. I
thought the autocross was very well organized and laid out and the rally was
full of gimmicks for those who like such things and covered some beautiful
scenery. The quiz was challenging but caused a review of the whole Tiger
library which was good.
The "Concours" as it was called was the most disappointing aspect of
the event.
First on the issue of the Harrington it sounds as if it is a matter
of who defines stock. I would normally think that meant only vehicles that
were mass produced and offered for sale through the dealer network and as
advertised to the public. I thought the definition of stock for United
precluded body modifications. As you stated below the coachwork on the
Harrington is different than a normal mass produced Tiger. Therefore you
must be concluding that if the body modifications to a Tiger body shell were
done under a factory authorized contract with Harrington for example then
that is different than if an owner does them. If that is true then the
LeMans cars whose body modifications were contracted with Lister should also
qualify for the stock class since they also started out as Tiger or Alpine
shells. I see very little difference in the concept. Then if Dick Barker and
Sid Silverman entered their cars in the stock class there would be no
trophies left for the stock mass produced Tigers. I think it is very
probable that in any form of judging a one-off or three-off factory
prototype car is going to win over an equally prepared mass produced Tiger.
Does that sound fair to the entrants and will that encourage anyone to
prepare a really stock Tiger to concours specs? I really think those cars
are demonstration cars at a Tiger event. Please do not read me wrong. Bill's
car is superb and a former Pebble Beach winner and is deserving of awards
but in my opinion it just is not any competition for a mass produced stock
Tiger and should not be in that class.
On the issue of judging I believe the event was a joke. I have also
been a concours chair at a Tiger event and know the problems recruiting
qualified judges but that IS the responsibility of the chair in addition to
training the judges, setting clear objective measurements, location
arrangements and trophies. If the checklist of items is clear then the
judges can review a car fairly quickly and I do not believe it takes 30
judges to do 60 cars in a reasonable time. It is done with far fewer judges
at many events across the country. I do not know why most of the judges quit
after the first class at Tahoe but something must have been said that caused
that. To expect the entrants to judge their competitors in an objective and
consistent fashion is ridiculous. The entrants have varying knowledge levels
of what is correct and original and have a definite vested interest.
Furthermore absolutely no instruction was given to the entrant/judges as to
how much to deduct or add for certain items. Therefore if for example a car
in the stock class had an incorrect gauge should the allotted points for
interior be reduced by a half point, one point or 5 points. I suspect
various cars were very inconsistently judged just because of lack of
direction. The method chosen for judging simply turned the event into a show
and shine not a concours. It also meant all the entrants did not have much
time to look at cars other than the ones they were assigned to judge.
Finally my last issue deals with the criteria on which the cars were
judged. Criteria was published on the net for many months in advance of the
event. Some of us spent many hours and dollars bringing cars up to those
specs. One could not wait until the last minute to start that process. While
those specs were not perfect they were the best set of specs I have seen in
my 30 years of Tiger ownership to judge a stock Tiger and far better than
the ones used. I think anyone who viewed the published specs realized that
the personalized and modified Tigers would have to be judged differently.
The chair should have cleared those specs with all the necessary parties
before they were published and the powers to be should have inquired about
them much earlier. To drop those specs at the last minute after cars were
prepared was totally unfair to the entrants. Instead a different set of
specs could have been developed or the old United specs used only for the
personalized or modified classes and leave the stock class as published. A
decision to use different criteria for two classes would not have caused any
variation in the Lord Rootes award since the concourse was worth 200 points
based on where a car ended up in its class irrespective of the specs used to
judge that class. Some might argue that preparing a car to the published
specs should have helped even under the substituted rules. That is true for
some things but many would not have even been noticed in the lazy way the
judging was done. How many entrants noticed the Ford lettering on the
starter that is only visible under the car? Did the one judging the engine
compartment look under the engine area for that lettering? The decision to
change specs was made so late that even if one wanted it was too late to
cancel bringing a car to the event.
I for one would not even have prepared and brought a car 1500 miles
to what amounted to a show and shine. I can do that locally almost any
weekend at home. Because of the cost of traveling that far with a car I
would have taken a flight into Eureka as just seeing the historic cars
together was worth the entry fee. I really thought the concours would be a
fair objective comparison of some of the best true stock Tigers in the
country and wanted to contribute toward that. It fell far short of that.
My point in all this is one of fairness to the entrants. In the
future please let us all know far in advance what the rules are and stick to
them, how the judging will be conducted and the definitions of what cars are
eligible to enter which classes. That way we can make an informed decision
about entering the concours and bringing a car thousands of miles. Anyway
since you raised the issue again that's my two cents.
Dave McDermott
AHP483B and other Tigers
At 03:37 AM 7/3/97 -0400, PLRRESTO@aol.com wrote:
>All,
>
>As the TUXXII chair, I thought it best that I simply stay out of this
>discussion of the Concour as my position would hardly seem impartial. But
>since a few points were never brought up, I thought I might reopen the
>discussion.
>
>First of all, the Harrington Tiger. Bill Van Velkinburg has been showing
>this car in the stock class for as long as I can remember. And, for as long
>as I can remember, no one has ever complained about it's classification. Why?
>Because "Harry" is a stock Harrington Tiger. The only thing different about
>this car is it's coachwork. Other than that, this car is as stock as they
>get; original engine, original carb, original oil filter system, original
>radiater, original color scheme, original trim, original style battery, etc.,
>etc., etc. Bill, in fact, has spent a LOT of money and time to bring his
>"Harry" up to what it is today, as close as he can get it to the way it was
>when it left Harrington Coachworks. Personally, I believe this car deserves
>the recognition it gets. If we had put this car in a special vehicle class,
>then people going for Lord Rootes would complain; if we put this car in the
>personalized class, then those people would complain; and the same with the
>modified class.
>
>Secondly, the lawn. The idea to use the lawn at the Marina came from our
>contacts in Eureka including the Visiter's Bureau. In December of last year,
>Julie and I scouted the area as did Tom and Bette Hall. At the time, we found
>the lawn to be well maintained and considered this site to be a good spot for
>our activity. Norman and Margi inspected the Marina again in April and found
>no problems. So how were we to know that the grounds personnel were going to
>stop watering the lawn? And how were we to know that the seagulls were going
>to use our site for a potty box? Certainly, if we had known and had enough
>time for the paper work, we would have gone elsewhere.
>
>And lastly, the judges. The real issue here is not the judging at this event,
>but is much more far reaching. Remember last year in Bakersfield when only
>cars going for Lord Rootes were judged and the rest were done by popular
>vote. People complained then also. Don't get me wrong, I didn't like the way
>the Eureka concour was done either. I also didn't like the Bakersfield
>concour. But the worst of them all was the concour I chaired in Tahoe; that
>one was a disaster. In Tahoe, I tried to put on a typical concour as we know
>them, with judges judging all the cars etc., etc. What was the problem, you
>say? Simple. No one wants to be a judge and of the few judges I had, most
>were not qualified. Then, everyone gets bored and wants to leave in two
>hours. Add a little afternoon sun and many of the judges won't look at more
>than one class of cars. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - it takes
>30 judges to judge 50-60 cars in two hours and still do a descent job. How
>does that break down? Well, 12 judges for stock, 12 for personalized, and 6
>for modified. In Tahoe, STOA provided 12 judges and CAT none. Seems the
>president told the members at a meeting that judging was STOA's problem and
>besides, who wants to be a judge, it'll ruin your whole day. Of course, when
>we got to the event, the CAT registrants were all pissed off , because
>judging was biased toward STOA. Most of the judges quite after the first
>class, then I was in a mad rush to find replacements. I ended up with close
>compeditors judging one anothers cars. And where were the qualified judges?
>Well, it seems that people like Terry Taylor, Steve Alcala, Norm Miller and
>others had done this job so many times in the past that they wanted a well
>deserved break. Then, with about 10 cars left to do, people start taking off
>for the rally.
>
>All we have seen these past two years is an attempt by the event organizers
>to get though the concour in a shorter period of time, while still providing
>reasonable results, and all the while pissing off the least number of people.
>The way I see it, there is only a small number of people who go to these
>events who care about the concour judging and I quess we've just heard from 3
>of them. Fortunately, events like these aren't planned to please the few, but
>rather to please the many. To that end, I believe Norman and Company did an
>outstanding job considering the opposition within STOA, meager Tiger
>community support and the use of a new location.
>
>But hey! Next year it's going to be even better, right.
>
>Til next time - Event Chairman? Who?
>
>Paul Reisentz
>Lame Duck TUXXII Event Chair
>STOA TAC Chairman
>
>
>
>
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