Subject: Re: [6pack] Advancing or retarding the stock camshaft

From: Robert Lang via 6pack <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:46:00 +0000 (UTC)

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 Hi,
I can say with authority that advancing the cam will help a bit, but it won=
't result in gobs of power. Note that you must have a proper cam gear to do=
 this, some on the market are not drilled properly limiting the amount of "=
change" you can make. Adjustable cam gears give you more adjustability and =
hence allowing you to optimize the cam on the dyno. BUT accessing the gear =
on the dyno is pretty hard to do, so we tend to stick with what has worked =
in the past with various cams. All that said, you will likely find a few to=
rques if you advance the cam up to about 4 degrees. Retarding the cam does =
NOTHING GOOD. Regarding tuning,=C2=A0 you want torque, not HP. Trust me on =
that. Side story: I had a late TR6 with really low power, the former owner =
spent scads of $$$ trying to get the car to run right. After I verified the=
 basics, I was able to determine that the cam was retarded. A LOT. Intake w=
as opening ATDC. I fixed that and got over more 30 HP to the wheels. Cam ti=
ming does make a difference!

I got around 100 HP to the wheels with stock late cam (advanced 4 degrees),=
 header, mild porting and a free-flow exhaust. The biggest gain: ditch the =
crank-driven fan. 8 HP. You could probably get another one or two by underd=
riving the alternator, but I've never done that. This was an SCCA "Street P=
repared" car with stock compression, pretty much no internal mods and balan=
cing. If you want real power, you can only get there with higher compressio=
n or boosting. Period.
The 5 main idea is good, but we would also suggest / recommend nitriding th=
e crank no matter what. Stock rods work great when properly prepared, but y=
ou can increase reliability by going to aftermarket rods that are lighter. =
Carillos are e$pen$ive but are also over 110 grams lighter than prepared st=
ock rods. There are cheaper alternatives to Carillo, but they come with som=
e risk. But over 100 grams: That's a LOT of both rotational and reciprocati=
ng mass and that will help for your killer harmonics. Note that 6300 is onl=
y one of them. The key is not staying at the killer RPMs - you need to not =
get there or go beyond them.
That's enough for now. ;-)

C ya,Bob Lang
p.s. the chart below is backwards - advancing a cam opens it EARLIER than t=
he published numbers (and retarding opens the valves later. For a stock lat=
e TR6 cam, try to open intake at around 22 BTDC. But the REAL number to go =
for is the lobe center, move that towards TDC to advance the cam. The stock=
 cam lob center is around 110 ATDC, so make that less than 110 and your're =
good to go.

    On Monday, December 30, 2019, 5:30:29 AM EST, Robert Perry via 6pack <6=
[email-masked]> wrote: =20
=20
 Hello All,

Since there is talk about modifications of their vehicles, has anyone tried=
 to advance or retard the stock camshaft? I know why bother just change it.

The camshaft tooth degree is 8.57 (360 /42 teeth) with half tooth being 4.2=
8 degrees. So that would be=20
2.14 crankshaft degrees.  Therefore advancing the camshaft a half tooth in =
crankshaft degrees=20
would be the following;

10/50 50/10 becomes 7.86/47.86 47.86/7.86

18/58 58/18 becomes 15.86/55.86 55.86/15.86

35/65 65/35 becomes 32.86/62.86 62.86/32.86

=C2=A0and if one retards the camshaft

10/50 50/10 becomes 12.14/52.14 52.14/12.14

18/58 58/18 becomes 20.14/60.14 60.14/20.14=20

35/65 65/35 becomes 37.14/62.86 62.86/37.14

Regards,

Robert

_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

[email-masked]
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/6pack

[email-masked]

 =20
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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp961f228fyahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family: Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1=
3px;"><div></div>
        <div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Hi,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" da=
ta-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I can =
say with authority that advancing the cam will help a bit, but it won't res=
ult in gobs of power. Note that you must have a proper cam gear to do this,=
 some on the market are not drilled properly limiting the amount of "change=
" you can make. Adjustable cam gears give you more adjustability and hence =
allowing you to optimize the cam on the dyno. BUT accessing the gear on the=
 dyno is pretty hard to do, so we tend to stick with what has worked in the=
 past with various cams. All that said, you will likely find a few torques =
if you advance the cam up to about 4 degrees. Retarding the cam does NOTHIN=
G GOOD. Regarding tuning,&nbsp; you want torque, not HP. Trust me on that. =
Side story: I had a late TR6 with really low power, the former owner spent =
scads of $$$ trying to get the car to run right. After I verified the basic=
s, I was able to determine that the cam was retarded. A LOT. Intake was ope=
ning ATDC. I fixed that and got over more 30 HP to the wheels. Cam timing d=
oes make a difference!<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I got around 100 HP to the whe=
els with stock late cam (advanced 4 degrees), header, mild porting and a fr=
ee-flow exhaust. The biggest gain: ditch the crank-driven fan. 8 HP. You co=
uld probably get another one or two by underdriving the alternator, but I'v=
e never done that. This was an SCCA "Street Prepared" car with stock compre=
ssion, pretty much no internal mods and balancing. If you want real power, =
you can only get there with higher compression or boosting. Period.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">The 5 main idea is good, but we would also suggest / recommend n=
itriding the crank no matter what. Stock rods work great when properly prep=
ared, but you can increase reliability by going to aftermarket rods that ar=
e lighter. Carillos are e$pen$ive but are also over 110 grams lighter than =
prepared stock rods. There are cheaper alternatives to Carillo, but they co=
me with some risk. But over 100 grams: That's a LOT of both rotational and =
reciprocating mass and that will help for your killer harmonics. Note that =
6300 is only one of them. The key is not staying at the killer RPMs - you n=
eed to not get there or go beyond them.</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">That's enough f=
or now. ;-)<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><div =
dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">C ya,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=
=3D"false">Bob Lang</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false"><br></div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">p.s. the chart below is backwards - a=
dvancing a cam opens it EARLIER than the published numbers (and retarding o=
pens the valves later. For a stock late TR6 cam, try to open intake at arou=
nd 22 BTDC. But the REAL number to go for is the lobe center, move that tow=
ards TDC to advance the cam. The stock cam lob center is around 110 ATDC, s=
o make that less than 110 and your're good to go.<br></div><div><br></div>
       =20
        </div><div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyahoo_quoted_8709648701" class=3D"ydpca=
4d004dyahoo_quoted">
            <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
               =20
                <div>
                    On Monday, December 30, 2019, 5:30:29 AM EST, Robert Pe=
rry via 6pack &lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
                </div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><br></div>
                <div><div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000"><div><div style=
=3D"font-size:13px;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:arial, sans-serif;">Hello=
 All,<br><br>Since there is talk about modifications of their vehicles, has=
 anyone tried to advance or retard the stock camshaft?  I know why bother j=
ust change it.<br><br><pre class=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000msgPlainWrap">T=
he camshaft tooth degree is 8.57 (360 /42 teeth) with half tooth being 4.28=
 degrees. So that would be <br>2.14 crankshaft degrees.  Therefore advancin=
g the camshaft a half tooth in crankshaft degrees <br>would be the followin=
g;

10/50 50/10 becomes 7.86/47.86 47.86/7.86

18/58 58/18 becomes 15.86/55.86 55.86/15.86<br><br>35/65 65/35 becomes 32.8=
6/62.86 62.86/32.86<br><br>&nbsp;and if one retards the camshaft

10/50 50/10 becomes 12.14/52.14 52.14/12.14

18/58 58/18 becomes 20.14/60.14 60.14/20.14 <br><br>35/65 65/35 becomes 37.=
14/62.86 62.86/37.14<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Robert<br></pre><br><br><br><di=
v id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701574684" style=3D"font=
-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:10pt;font-f=
amily:arial, sans-serif;color:black;"><pre></pre></div><br><br><br><div id=
=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701611235" style=3D"font-wei=
ght:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:10pt;font-famil=
y:arial, sans-serif;color:black;"><pre></pre></div><br><br><br><div id=3D"y=
dpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701681010" style=3D"font-weight:n=
ormal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-size:10pt;font-family:ari=
al, sans-serif;color:black;"><pre></pre></div><br><br></div></div>
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---

From: marty via 6pack <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:18:56 +0000

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	boundary="_000_BN8PR02MB5860839C92485C2A4A8B3564BA270BN8PR02MB5860namp_"

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I modified a front cover once so that it had a removable plate that allowed=
 access to the adjustable cam sprocket.  It never sealed 100% and I gave up=
 after a couple of years.  More bother that It was worth to me.

Marty

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Robert Lang via 6pack <[email-masked]>
Date: 12/30/19 8:48 AM (GMT-05:00)
To: TR6 <[email-masked]>, Robert Perry <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [6pack] Advancing or retarding the stock camshaft

Hi,

I can say with authority that advancing the cam will help a bit, but it won=
't result in gobs of power. Note that you must have a proper cam gear to do=
 this, some on the market are not drilled properly limiting the amount of "=
change" you can make. Adjustable cam gears give you more adjustability and =
hence allowing you to optimize the cam on the dyno. BUT accessing the gear =
on the dyno is pretty hard to do, so we tend to stick with what has worked =
in the past with various cams. All that said, you will likely find a few to=
rques if you advance the cam up to about 4 degrees. Retarding the cam does =
NOTHING GOOD. Regarding tuning,  you want torque, not HP. Trust me on that.=
 Side story: I had a late TR6 with really low power, the former owner spent=
 scads of $$$ trying to get the car to run right. After I verified the basi=
cs, I was able to determine that the cam was retarded. A LOT. Intake was op=
ening ATDC. I fixed that and got over more 30 HP to the wheels. Cam timing =
does make a difference!

C ya,
Bob Lang

On Monday, December 30, 2019, 5:30:29 AM EST, Robert Perry via 6pack <6pack=
@autox.team.net> wrote:

Hello All,

The camshaft tooth degree is 8.57 (360 /42 teeth) with half tooth being 4.2=
8 degrees. So that would be
2.14 crankshaft degrees.  Therefore advancing the camshaft a half tooth in =
crankshaft degrees
would be the following;

 and if one retards the camshaft

18/58 58/18 becomes 20.14/60.14 60.14/20.14

Regards,

Robert

[email-masked]

--_000_BN8PR02MB5860839C92485C2A4A8B3564BA270BN8PR02MB5860namp_
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif">I modified a front cover once so that it had=
 a removable plate that allowed access to the adjustable cam sprocket.&nbsp=
; It never sealed 100% and I gave up after a couple of years.&nbsp; More bo=
ther that It was worth to me.</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face=3D"sans-serif">Marty&nbsp;</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Sent from my Veriz=
on, Samsung Galaxy smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Robert Lang via 6pack &lt;[email-masked]&gt; </div>
<div>Date: 12/30/19 8:48 AM (GMT-05:00) </div>
<div>To: TR6 &lt;[email-masked]&gt;, Robert Perry &lt;rgperry@earthli=
nk.net&gt; </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [6pack] Advancing or retarding the stock camshaft </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"ydp961f228fyahoo-style-wrap" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica N=
eue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:13px">
<div></div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I can say with authority that advancing the cam will help =
a bit, but it won't result in gobs of power. Note that you must have a prop=
er cam gear to do this, some on the market are not drilled properly limitin=
g the amount of &quot;change&quot; you can make.
 Adjustable cam gears give you more adjustability and hence allowing you to=
 optimize the cam on the dyno. BUT accessing the gear on the dyno is pretty=
 hard to do, so we tend to stick with what has worked in the past with vari=
ous cams. All that said, you will
 likely find a few torques if you advance the cam up to about 4 degrees. Re=
tarding the cam does NOTHING GOOD. Regarding tuning,&nbsp; you want torque,=
 not HP. Trust me on that. Side story: I had a late TR6 with really low pow=
er, the former owner spent scads of $$$
 trying to get the car to run right. After I verified the basics, I was abl=
e to determine that the cam was retarded. A LOT. Intake was opening ATDC. I=
 fixed that and got over more 30 HP to the wheels. Cam timing does make a d=
ifference!<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I got around 100 HP to the wheels with stock late cam (adv=
anced 4 degrees), header, mild porting and a free-flow exhaust. The biggest=
 gain: ditch the crank-driven fan. 8 HP. You could probably get another one=
 or two by underdriving the alternator,
 but I've never done that. This was an SCCA &quot;Street Prepared&quot; car=
 with stock compression, pretty much no internal mods and balancing. If you=
 want real power, you can only get there with higher compression or boostin=
g. Period.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">The 5 main idea is good, but we would also suggest / recom=
mend nitriding the crank no matter what. Stock rods work great when properl=
y prepared, but you can increase reliability by going to aftermarket rods t=
hat are lighter. Carillos are e$pen$ive
 but are also over 110 grams lighter than prepared stock rods. There are ch=
eaper alternatives to Carillo, but they come with some risk. But over 100 g=
rams: That's a LOT of both rotational and reciprocating mass and that will =
help for your killer harmonics.
 Note that 6300 is only one of them. The key is not staying at the killer R=
PMs - you need to not get there or go beyond them.</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">That's enough for now. ;-)<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">C ya,</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Lang</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">p.s. the chart below is backwards - advancing a cam opens =
it EARLIER than the published numbers (and retarding opens the valves later=
. For a stock late TR6 cam, try to open intake at around 22 BTDC. But the R=
EAL number to go for is the lobe center,
 move that towards TDC to advance the cam. The stock cam lob center is arou=
nd 110 ATDC, so make that less than 110 and your're good to go.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyahoo_quoted_8709648701" class=3D"ydpca4d004dyahoo_qu=
oted">
<div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font=
-size:13px; color:#26282a">
<div>On Monday, December 30, 2019, 5:30:29 AM EST, Robert Perry via 6pack &=
lt;[email-masked]&gt; wrote:
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000">
<div>
<div style=3D"font-size:13px; color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:arial,sans-seri=
f">Hello All,<br>
<br>
Since there is talk about modifications of their vehicles, has anyone tried=
 to advance or retard the stock camshaft? I know why bother just change it.=
<br>
<br>
<pre class=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000msgPlainWrap">The camshaft tooth degr=
ee is 8.57 (360 /42 teeth) with half tooth being 4.28 degrees. So that woul=
d be <br>2.14 crankshaft degrees.  Therefore advancing the camshaft a half =
tooth in crankshaft degrees <br>would be the following;

18/58 58/18 becomes 20.14/60.14 60.14/20.14 <br><br>35/65 65/35 becomes 37.=
14/62.86 62.86/37.14<br><br>Regards,<br><br>Robert<br></pre>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701574684" style=3D"f=
ont-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-size:10pt;=
 font-family:arial,sans-serif; color:black">
<pre></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701611235" style=3D"f=
ont-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-size:10pt;=
 font-family:arial,sans-serif; color:black">
<pre></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"ydpca4d004dyiv4021707000elnk_signature_1577701681010" style=3D"f=
ont-weight:normal; font-style:normal; text-decoration:none; font-size:10pt;=
 font-family:arial,sans-serif; color:black">
<pre></pre>
</div>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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