Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

From: Chris Dimmock <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 16:46:37 +1100

Slightly off topic answer, but here are two or 3 observations....
1. The biggest issue with thermostats of any type is what do they do when they
fail? I.e. when they stop working?
So they fail in an open position, or fail in a closed position?
I use a thermostat that fails open. Because its far better than failing
closed. I think mine is out of some modern jap car. If I can find the details
I'll post them.
2. With radiator caps, there are 2 lengths. If you fit a short one instead of
a long one, you'll basically have a no or low pressure cap irrespective of
what it's "rated" at.
All I'm saying is these are two of the most important things to understand
before you just look at the opening temp on a thermostat, or the pressure
rating on a radiator cap.
PS and always test a thermostat in near boiling water on bench, even if it is
brand new straight out of the packet...
Best
Chris

Sent from my iPhone

On 05/02/2013, at 9:20 AM, john spaur <[email-masked]> wrote:

> I was checking the archives and read a few emails concerning 7 pound caps
versus 10 pound caps. The conclusions seemed to be:
>
> 7# cap - to stop overflow fill up and let the radiator find it's own water
level (or use an overflow container)
> 10# cap - may not overflow but, according to Moss it cannot be used with an
original style thermostat with sleeve and bellows.
>
> I am not yet too concerned about overheating because I have a newly rebuilt
four row radiator with the original top and bottom and I have not yet driven
the car let alone driven it on a hot northern California summer day.
>
> Concerning the thermostat, I am wondering if there are significant
advantages to using an original style sleeved type with bellows? If so what
are the advantages?
> Thank you,
> John Spaur
> San Jose, CA
> '
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From: john spaur <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2013 22:19:16 -0800

Not off topic at all! Hence the question.
The Moss OEM reproduction fails closed unlike modern stats.
My radiator neck is 1", not 3/4". Caps are easily obtainable in either length.
Best,
John

At 04:46 PM 2/5/2013 +1100, you wrote:
>1. The biggest issue with thermostats of any type is what do they do 
>when they fail? I.e. when they stop working?
>I use a thermostat that fails open. Because its far better than 
>failing closed. I think mine is out of some modern jap car. If I can 
>find the details I'll post them.
>2. With radiator caps, there are 2 lengths. If you fit a short one 
>instead of a long one, you'll basically have a no or low pressure 
>cap irrespective of what it's "rated" at..... Chris

[email-masked]

---

From: Alan Seigrist <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 18:43:43 +0800

All -

Has anybody ever just used a racing blanking sleeve and then just use a
modern thermostat?  It seems the only purpose of the bypass gallery is to
heat the coolant up a little faster before the thermostat opens....
otherwise it just reduces your cooling capability in hot weather.

Why not just use the sleeve + a reverse poppet thermostat?

http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=69820&SortOrder=10

Collective Thoughts?

Alan

On Tue, Feb 5, 2013 at 2:19 PM, john spaur <[email-masked]> wrote:

>> 1. The biggest issue with thermostats of any type is what do they do when
>> they fail? I.e. when they stop working?
>> closed. I think mine is out of some modern jap car. If I can find the
>> details I'll post them.
>> instead of a long one, you'll basically have a no or low pressure cap
>> irrespective of what it's "rated" at..... Chris
>>
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From: Per Schoerner <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 14:59:51 +0100

Alan
Sounds like a good idea. Given the fact that many people have problems 
to cool their engines, the absense of the sleeve might be the reason. I 
know that it has been difficult to get hold of a sleeved thermostat for 
many year now, but apparantly Moss have started manufactuing them again, 
but to a substantial price.

Per

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From: "Simon Lachlan" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 14:52:36 -0000

They pop up on UK eBay quite often. I've got two or three that I got there.
Seem to recall that a Morgan fellow sells/sold them.
Simonm

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Per Schoerner
Sent: 05 February 2013 14:00
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

Alan
Sounds like a good idea. Given the fact that many people have problems to
cool their engines, the absense of the sleeve might be the reason. I know
that it has been difficult to get hold of a sleeved thermostat for many year
now, but apparantly Moss have started manufactuing them again, but to a
substantial price.

Per

> Why not just use the sleeve + a reverse poppet thermostat?
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=69820&SortOrde
r=10

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From: Randy Hicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 10:24:28 -0500

I have the Moss sleeved unit that I bought a couple years ago. They are 160
degree and the BJ8 calls for a running temperature of 180 degree.

The 160 degree seems low, especially on cool/cold days when I can't even get
to 160 degrees. Never understood why they don't make a 180 degree version.

Randy

> Sounds like a good idea. Given the fact that many people have problems to
cool their engines, the absense of the sleeve might be the reason. I know that
it has been difficult to get hold of a sleeved thermostat for many year now,
but apparantly Moss have started manufactuing them again, but to a substantial
price.
>> Why not just use the sleeve + a reverse poppet thermostat?
http://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=69820&SortOrder
=10
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From: "BJ8 Healeys" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 12:01:10 -0500

My experience agrees with Randy's.  A 160-deg. Moss thermostat made my car
run too cold in winter and I even had to block the radiator with cardboard
to get the engine up to temp.  But the 160 also allowed the engine to run at
200-deg. in summer.  I bought a 187-deg. NOS AC sleeved thermostat from Kees
and now my BJ8 runs at 190 in winter and summer (I also have a re-cored
radiator with a more-efficient modern core).

Steve Byers
HBJ8L/36666
BJ8 Registry
Havelock, NC  USA

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Randy Hicks
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2013 10:24 AM
To: Healey List
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

Randy

[email-masked]

---

From: Randy Hicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 19:52:54 -0500

Well...., I thought it was just my car but I am getting the same temps as
Steve. 160 degree Moss did not help in summer. I also have a recored upgraded
radiator.

I run a 180 degree thermostat (from Kees) in the 100M and it is fine. Looks
like I'll put the 178 degree thermostat (also from Kees) in the BJ8 before the
trip from MA to Southeastern (FL) in April.

Sorry Kees!  Got anymore?  :-)

Randy

[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2013 20:26:27 -0500 (EST)

Once the coolant temp. is above the control point of the thermostat, the
thermostat is wide open & no longer in control of the coolant temperature. I.
E. a 160 degree thermostat will not keep your coolant any cooler than a 180
thermostat once the coolant temp is above 180 degrees.  At or above 160
degrees coolant temp. the 160 degree thermostat is wide open. Above 180
degrees they are both wide open.
Gary Hodson

-----Original Message-----
From: Randy Hicks <[email-masked]>
To: BJ8 Healeys <[email-masked]>
Cc: 'Healey List' <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Feb 5, 2013 7:12 pm
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

I run a 180 degree thermostat (from Kees) in the 100M and it is fine. Looks
like I'll put the 178 degree thermostat (also from Kees) in the BJ8 before
the
trip from MA to Southeastern (FL) in April.

Randy

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From: "Mark Donaldson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 15:09:52 +1300

John,

In the thread following your question, nobody appears to have
mentioned that the later BJ7s and all of the BJ8s ran a 10 lb
long-neck radiator cap.  All of the others up to that time ran a
long-neck 7 lb cap.

Some years back a friend had major overheating problems in a BJ8.  I
checked the cap and discovered a short-reach 7 lb cap had been fitted.
I replaced it with the correct one and the problem was immediately
solved.

I am surprised that even today many owners do not seem to be aware of
this change-over, or that there are short-neck and long-neck pressure
caps.

Mark
Auckland, NZ

-----Original Message-----
From: john spaur [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, 5 February 2013 11:21 a.m.
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

I was checking the archives and read a few emails concerning 7 pound 
caps versus 10 pound caps. The conclusions seemed to be:

7# cap - to stop overflow fill up and let the radiator find it's own 
water level (or use an overflow container)
10# cap - may not overflow but, according to Moss it cannot be used 
with an original style thermostat with sleeve and bellows.

I am not yet too concerned about overheating because I have a newly 
rebuilt four row radiator with the original top and bottom and I have 
not yet driven the car let alone driven it on a hot northern 
California summer day.

Concerning the thermostat, I am wondering if there are significant 
advantages to using an original style sleeved type with bellows? If 
so what are the advantages?

Thank you,
John Spaur
San Jose, CA
'62 BT7

[email-masked]

---

From: john spaur <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 18:27:47 -0800

The archives mentioned the change from 7# to 10# and I have both in 
1" long neck. I purchased a 10# long neck caps from a tractor 
supplier and looks like any other cap. I was trying to decide if I 
should purchase the Moss thermostat with the sleeve and bellows and 
go back to a 10# cap but decided not too.

John

[email-masked]

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From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 18:45:24 -0800

Wow.  Learn something every day.

Anyone know where to get a correct 10lb, long-neck cap?

Bob

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            [email-masked]

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From: john spaur <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 05 Feb 2013 19:17:14 -0800

Bought mine here:

http://www.autoradiators.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RW0021-25At

Don't know if it is "proper"

Stamped on the top is: Turn Down Tight", "Remove Slowly" and "LBS. 10"

Check with tractor suppliers. I reckon there were a lot of those 
around these parts before Blossom Valley became Silicon Valley!

John

[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:16:16 -0500 (EST)

Just to be clear, a 10 Lb cap won't reduce "overheating". It just raises the
temperature (pressure) at which the radiator cap will release the pressure &
the radiator will boil over.
Gary Hodson

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Donaldson <[email-masked]>
To: 'john spaur' <[email-masked]>; healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Feb 5, 2013 8:30 pm
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

John,

Mark
Auckland, NZ

[email-masked]

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 09:24:30 -0500 (EST)

John,
If you do not use a thermostat with sleeve then you should install the
blanking sleeve in addition to a conventional thermostat. If I recall
correctly, Norman Nock stated in his Tech Talks booklet that with out a sleeve
you will loose up to 20% of the system cooling capacity.
Gary Hodson

-----Original Message-----
From: john spaur <[email-masked]>
To: healeys <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tue, Feb 5, 2013 8:44 pm
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

John

[email-masked]

---

From: Randy Hicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2013 13:07:05 -0500

Makes a lot of sense. So I don't see the need for a $100 - 160 degree sleeved
thermostat.

I took mine out this AM and replaced with Kees 178 degree sleeved unit.
Easy.

Anyone want a 160 degree, slightly used Moss Sleeved thermostat cheap????
:-)

Randy

PS: BTW, I put on K&N air filters on the BJ8 this weekend and the motor seems
to breath much better. Will know for sure when the snow is gone.  :-)

the

[email-masked]

---

From: Oudesluys <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2013 19:44:52 +0100

This discussion took place during my holiday in San Diego/Las Vegas/ 
Grand Canyon/Mohave and other Deserts, Quartzsite etc.
I have tried to respond but I am uncertain if anything at all came 
through, the WiFi in most h/motels was atrocious, very slow.

For your information I still have the following sleeved bellow 
thermostats available:
4 x AC TF1, 720C / 1620F
3 x AC TF3, 680C / 1540F
4 x AC TF4, 860C / 1870F
2 x Smiths 85025/.., 860C / 1870F
2 x Smiths 85025/.., 800C / 1760F
1 x Smiths 85025/.., 820C / 1800F

Smiths and AC thermostats are interchangeable/equivalent. Smiths was 
mostly used as OE on the AH, AC on the TR2/3/4.

Officially these thermostats should be used with a pressure cap of no 
more than 7psi to prevent collapse of the bellows, however I know of 
several people that use 10psi pressure caps without any trouble.
If you have sufficient,meaning overcapacity of  the radiator, or if your 
engine does never run hotter than say 50 over the opening temperature of 
the thermostat, use the 860C / 1870F thermostat with a 7psi pressure cap 
plus proper overflow bottle. The engine will run better and more 
efficiently. Fill up the radiator to the top of its neck and the 
overflow bottle to half way with the tube reaching the bottom. After 
topping up a few times all air will be expelled from the cooling system 
and the radiator will be fully filled up with coolant.
If your car runs to hot at any time there is no way you can fix this 
with an other thermostat with a lower opening temperature, you just buy 
a little extra time only before the engine starts boiling

If you want to buy thermostats ($40 each, except the AC TF3 which will 
be $55), get a few mates together (AH, TR2/3, Jaguar etc.) as shipping 1 
thermostat to the US costs the same as shipping 13, i.e. $31 registered 
post (parcel up to 2kg).

Kees Oudesluijs
NL

[email-masked]

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From: "Robert F. Begani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 00:17:15 -0500

Hello List:

I will buy the recommended 860/187F for my BJ8 and join anyone who wants to
make a Group purchase from Kees.  After reading all the comments the past
days, I need to remodel my cooling system with a thermostat and fans etc
before contemplating a new core for the radiator.

Bob Begani
67 BJ8 Punta Gorda Florida

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Oudesluys
Sent: Sunday, February 10, 2013 1:45 PM
To: [email-masked]; Randy Hicks; Michael MacLean
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Radiator cap thermostat combinations

This discussion took place during my holiday in San Diego/Las Vegas/ Grand
Canyon/Mohave and other Deserts, Quartzsite etc.
I have tried to respond but I am uncertain if anything at all came through,
the WiFi in most h/motels was atrocious, very slow.

For your information I still have the following sleeved bellow thermostats
available:
4 x AC TF1, 720C / 1620F
3 x AC TF3, 680C / 1540F
4 x AC TF4, 860C / 1870F
2 x Smiths 85025/.., 860C / 1870F
2 x Smiths 85025/.., 800C / 1760F
1 x Smiths 85025/.., 820C / 1800F

Smiths and AC thermostats are interchangeable/equivalent. Smiths was mostly
used as OE on the AH, AC on the TR2/3/4.

Officially these thermostats should be used with a pressure cap of no more
than 7psi to prevent collapse of the bellows, however I know of several
people that use 10psi pressure caps without any trouble.
If you have sufficient,meaning overcapacity of  the radiator, or if your
engine does never run hotter than say 50 over the opening temperature of the
thermostat, use the 860C / 1870F thermostat with a 7psi pressure cap plus
proper overflow bottle. The engine will run better and more efficiently.
Fill up the radiator to the top of its neck and the overflow bottle to half
way with the tube reaching the bottom. After topping up a few times all air
will be expelled from the cooling system and the radiator will be fully
filled up with coolant.
If your car runs to hot at any time there is no way you can fix this with an
other thermostat with a lower opening temperature, you just buy a little
extra time only before the engine starts boiling

If you want to buy thermostats ($40 each, except the AC TF3 which will be
$55), get a few mates together (AH, TR2/3, Jaguar etc.) as shipping 1
thermostat to the US costs the same as shipping 13, i.e. $31 registered post
(parcel up to 2kg).

Kees Oudesluijs
NL
$12.75

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From: Joseph Troutwine <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:25:53 -0700

Count me in on one of the 860/1870F for my BJ-8 as well.  Just let me 
know how you want to proceed.

Joe Troutwine
BJ-8  Chandler, AZ

On 2/11/2013 10:17 PM, Robert F. Begani wrote:
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]

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From: Oudesluys <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 17:45:56 +0100

All 860C thermostats have now been taken. They went very quickly
Only one 800C and a few 680C and 720C thermostats are now still available.

Kees Oudesluijs
NL

[email-masked]

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From: Derek Job <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2013 08:14:13 +0000

A thermostat is there to ensure a minimum operating temperature. Changing
the thermostat and radiator cap will not make any engine run cooler.

Derek

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 5:17 AM, Robert F. Begani <[email-masked]>wrote:

> post
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]

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From: Oudesluys <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 13 Feb 2013 15:33:07 +0100

Op 12-2-2013 9:14, Derek Job schreef:
> A thermostat is there to ensure a minimum operating temperature. 
> Changing the thermostat and radiator cap will not make any engine run 
> cooler.
> Derek

Derek,
This is not completely correct.
In a proper system the cooling capacity of the radiator is much more 
than ever needed. In such a system a thermostat with a lower opening 
temperature will lower the engine temperature to say about 5 degrees 
above the opening temperature. Because the radiator will cool the 
coolant more than the engine will heat it up the thermostat will than 
start to close so less coolant flows to the radiator and cooling is 
decreased. This opening and closing will be continuous and will create a 
sort of equilibrium at a certain load of the engine and the speed the 
car travels (airflow). In stop and go situations this airflow is 
restricted hence a  thermostatically controlled electrical fan is added 
in modern systems and should also be fitted to older cars if driven in 
dense traffic.
This is the reason a radiator should always have an overcapacity so that 
the thermostat is the only factor that controls the temperature of the 
coolant.
Kees Oudesluijs
NL
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