Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 05:54:36 -0800

Points are vastly superior to electronic ignition the same way an abacus is vastly superior to an HP RPN 12C 
calculator--ask any mortgage broker or loan officer--a carburettor is vastly superior to SFI, a Gnome rotary engine is 
vastly superior to a high-bypass turbofan and trepanning is vastly superior to an MRI.

Heard Jeff had some issues with Pertronix (but no specifics). I've had one in my BJ8 for many years and miles with nary 
a problem; and we put them in our 100M (this doesn't even require the magnets under the rotor).  Engine starts quicker 
and idles lower/smoother than it did with points.  Also, have heard sourcing quality points is getting to be problematic.

Bob

ps.  What objective reasons did Jeff give for categorically declaring points 'better?'

On 12/13/2013 5:19 AM, Tom Felts wrote:
> I have Pertronix in my Healey and E-Type and you couldn't pay me to go back to points.  Gone are the days of fiddling with points to get the "exact" setting.
>
> tom
>
> ---- Mitch <[email-masked]> wrote:
>
> =============
> Hello,
> B
> I can't seem to access the archives so I will ask.....................I would
> like to ask which is bestB  .......PointsB  orB  electronic ignition
> (pertronics)B  or is there a better elect. ign. system avail.? I have
> Pertronics now ....seems ok...............I am going to have my distributorB
> rebuilt/re-curvedB  by Jeff at Advanced DistributorsB  He says ...points are
> better as did a few others I have asked...............................so I am
> going to take a consensus
> pros. and cons. would be greatly appreciated..............I just want the best
> performance from my stock 1966 BJ8.
> what about ..Mallory,crane,etc.
> B
> Thanks
> Mitch
>
>
>

-- 
*******************************************************************
Bob Spidell           San Jose, CA            [email-masked]

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

[email-masked]
http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys

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From: Oudesluys <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:22:38 +0100

Electronic ignition is far superior to points, especially in the higher 
rev. ranges. Once the timing is set properly it will stay that way. The 
spark is more powerful so you would arguably get a better ignition of 
the fuel mixture. It certainly will start easier. There is no points 
bounce.
There is no discernible difference in fuel consumption compared with a 
well set up and maintained points system, contrary to what is claimed.

There are a few disadvantages:
-as it is a fit and forget affair you also tend to forget to maintain 
the distributor, i.e. lubrication of the felt on the top of the shaft, 
lubrication of the advance weights, checking the rotor and cap on 
corrosion/burning.
-you are stuck when the ignition goes wrong, you cannot fix it by the 
road side unless you have a spare base plate with points, condenser etc.

Make sure that you always have the right resistance on the ignition, 
generally 3 Ohm, check the fitting instructions of the electronic 
ignition, there are systems that deviate..
If you have an ignition system in your car with ballast resistor, fit 
the electronic ignition over the coil plus resistor, both are appr. 1,5 
Ohm, so 3 Ohm in total. If you would fit the electronic ignition over 
the coil only (which is often done, also by mechanics who should know 
better) you may fry the ignition. You also do well to disconnect the 
small white/yellow wire from the starter solenoid that shorts the 
resistor when starting up. Alternatively replace the coil and resister 
by a 3 Ohm coil only.
Make sure your spark plugs are set slightly wider and renew the plug leads.

I have used Pertronix, Lumenition Magtronic and Lumenition Optronic. All 
did well but I would go for the Pertronix as is seems a bit more robust.

Kees Oudesluijs
NL

Tom Felts schreef op 13-12-2013 14:19:
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From: "John Sims" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 08:29:31 -0500

You will probably get a lot of pros and cons. I prefer Pertronix since I
never have to adjust it as with points, etc. The down side is when it fails
it fails all of a sudden whereas points, etc. slowly fail (unless you have a
crap rotor which I had break once). I have heard that early Pertronix units
were not reliable but they seem to have worked the kinks out of them and I
have had mine 5 years with no problems.

John Sims, BN6
Aberdeen, NJ

www.healey6.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 7:53 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

Hello,
B
I can't seem to access the archives so I will ask.....................I
would like to ask which is bestB  .......PointsB  orB  electronic ignition
(pertronics)B  or is there a better elect. ign. system avail.? I have
Pertronics now ....seems ok...............I am going to have my distributorB
rebuilt/re-curvedB  by Jeff at Advanced DistributorsB  He says ...points are
better as did a few others I have asked...............................so I
am going to take a consensus pros. and cons. would be greatly
appreciated..............I just want the best performance from my stock 1966
BJ8.
what about ..Mallory,crane,etc.
B
Thanks
Mitch
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

[email-masked]

---

From: "Simon Lachlan" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:41:19 -0000

I have a MkII BT7 but I don't imagine that my comments will be totally
irrelevant...
I had cause to have my Lucas DM6 distributor looked at professionally during
some problematic issue. It was diagnosed as being structurally very sound,
ie no wear in the shaft etc. I replaced the vacuum device (split), changed
the springs, cleaned out the gunk of ages, replaced the cap and the points.
It was pretty well as good  as new. So that's the starting point for
comparison purposes.
I then bought a Pertronics and experimented with that. I liked it; it was
neat and tidy, reliable & gave a nice idle and good response.
Just for the hell of it I got a 123Ignition unit and fitted that, keeping
the DM6 with Pertronics as a spare. (I had a spare "driving dog" attached so
it could, hopefully be done on the roadside if the 123 died the electronic
death.)
Anyhow, the 123 was an improvement on the Pertronics. It's easy to fit,
adjustable and more sophisticated. Look it up on the web. The one that I
bought looks quite like a Lucas ie not incongruous; the cap is Bosch so can
be bought anywhere. I use it in conjunction with a Lucas sports coil and NGK
BPR5ES plugs gapped at 0.030.
I took the car for a long trip in the summer, south-west UK to French
Mediterranean via the highest Alps en route. It all worked well.
Simon

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Mitch
Sent: 13 December 2013 12:53
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

Hello,
B
$12.75

[email-masked]

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From: "Robert F. Begani" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:47:41 -0500

I agree that the electronic ignition is far superior to points for all the
reasons below.  However, I thank Kees for reminding me of maintenance
because things happen.  One little magnet loose or lost may only cause a
rough idle which will drive you crazy blaming everything else.   

Bob Begani BJ8
-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Oudesluys
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 9:23 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

Electronic ignition is far superior to points, especially in the higher rev.
ranges. Once the timing is set properly it will stay that way. The spark is
more powerful so you would arguably get a better ignition of the fuel
mixture. It certainly will start easier. There is no points bounce.
There is no discernible difference in fuel consumption compared with a well
set up and maintained points system, contrary to what is claimed.

There are a few disadvantages:
-as it is a fit and forget affair you also tend to forget to maintain the
distributor, i.e. lubrication of the felt on the top of the shaft,
lubrication of the advance weights, checking the rotor and cap on
corrosion/burning.
-you are stuck when the ignition goes wrong, you cannot fix it by the road
side unless you have a spare base plate with points, condenser etc.

Make sure that you always have the right resistance on the ignition,
generally 3 Ohm, check the fitting instructions of the electronic ignition,
there are systems that deviate..
If you have an ignition system in your car with ballast resistor, fit the
electronic ignition over the coil plus resistor, both are appr. 1,5 Ohm, so
3 Ohm in total. If you would fit the electronic ignition over the coil only
(which is often done, also by mechanics who should know
better) you may fry the ignition. You also do well to disconnect the small
white/yellow wire from the starter solenoid that shorts the resistor when
starting up. Alternatively replace the coil and resister by a 3 Ohm coil
only.
Make sure your spark plugs are set slightly wider and renew the plug leads.

I have used Pertronix, Lumenition Magtronic and Lumenition Optronic. All did
well but I would go for the Pertronix as is seems a bit more robust.

Kees Oudesluijs
NL

Tom Felts schreef op 13-12-2013 14:19:
> I have Pertronix in my Healey and E-Type and you couldn't pay me to go
back to points.  Gone are the days of fiddling with points to get the
"exact" setting.
> I can't seem to access the archives so I will 
> ask.....................I would like to ask which is bestB  
> .......PointsB  orB  electronic ignition (pertronics)B  or is there a 
> better elect. ign. system avail.? I have Pertronics now ....seems 
> ok...............I am going to have my distributorB rebuilt/re-curvedB  
> by Jeff at Advanced DistributorsB  He says ...points are better as did 
> a few others I have asked...............................so I am going 
> to take a consensus pros. and cons. would be greatly 
> appreciated..............I just want the best performance from my stock
1966 BJ8.
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual 
> donation  $12.75
> Unsubscribe/Manage: 
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
>
>
>
> -----
$12.75

[email-masked]

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From: Michael Salter <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 09:40:08 -0500

Although for the reasons mentioned any good electronic system is superior
in performance to points there are 2 considerations.
1. They are original so, unless you are trying to make a silk purse out of
a sow's ear, points is what you got!!!
2. If the electronic system does fail, and this has happened to me, and you
failed to carry either a spare system of the same type or the components of
your original points system you are STUCK.. This I know after trying to
find a set of points for a BN1 in Gander, NF.

Michael S

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 8:54 AM, Bob Spidell <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Points are vastly superior to electronic ignition the same way an abacus
> is vastly superior to an HP RPN 12C calculator--ask any mortgage broker or
> loan officer--a carburettor is vastly superior to SFI, a Gnome rotary
> engine is vastly superior to a high-bypass turbofan and trepanning is
> vastly superior to an MRI.
>
> Heard Jeff had some issues with Pertronix (but no specifics). I've had one
> in my BJ8 for many years and miles with nary a problem; and we put them in
> our 100M (this doesn't even require the magnets under the rotor).  Engine
> starts quicker and idles lower/smoother than it did with points.  Also,
> have heard sourcing quality points is getting to be problematic.
>
> Bob
>
>> would
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/
> options/healeys/[email-masked]
>
>

-- 
Michael Salter

[email-masked]

---

From: "Reinhart Rosner" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:58:24 +0100

Interesting question. In my 100 I still have points and have learnt how to
set the ignition - it's not too hard. 

With the electronic ignition: Is there a difference if you have a 4- or a
6-cylinder car?

Reinhart

Reinhart Rosner
55 100 BN 1
Vienna - Austria

[email-masked]

---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:17:44 +0000 (UTC)

Pertronix makes modules for both. The 6-cyl module requires a 'collar' with magnets that sits under the rotor (sometimes causing problems with some rotor/cap combinations). The 4-cyl module does not require the collar; apparently, it senses the movement of the cam lobes (the 4-cyl distributor is smaller than the 6-cyl and I don't think there's room for the collar anyway). 

Bob 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Reinhart Rosner" <[email-masked]> 
To: "Tom Felts" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], "Mitch" <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:58:24 AM 
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition 

Reinhart 

Reinhart Rosner 
55 100 BN 1 
Vienna - Austria 

[email-masked]

---

From: "Earl Kagna" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2013 16:15:04 -0800

Mitch - lots of interesting replies!

My experience:  I've run electronic ignitions on both Healey for many 
years - a Repco - which became Allison, which became Crane on my BJ8, 
approx. 120K miles until it was taken off the road for restoration.  I've 
had a Pertronix on the tri-carb for 18 years - 46K miles since installation. 
I've never had a problem with either one.

The BJ8 is back on the road with a 123 ignition installed.  It's built into 
a Lucas distributor - for looks only  - it functions the same as the normal 
123.  The Pertronix (and some others) replace the 'switching' function only, 
replacing the points and condenser, with the weights and springs in the 
distributor still functioning to provide the mechanical advance.  It's 
important to recognise that the mechanical part of the distributor is 
usually worn on these old beasts, and should be repaired to correct specs 
regardless of whether points or Pertronx (and others like it).

The 123 is fully electronic, replacing points, condenser, weights and 
springs.  It uses the vacuum advance function by supplying the necessary 
vacuum to a vacuum sensitive microchip on the circuit board - pretty 
sophisticated for our old cars!  But it sure works well!  It's early days 
yet for me - only about 2K miles on the 123, but I really like it so far.

No-one has mentioned a couple of other things about using an electronic 
ignition:  they tend to damp out 'wobble' from wear in the distributor - 
there will be less timing fluctuation without a rubbing block on the dist. 
cam.  The triggering slots or magnets being well outboard compared to points 
helps here as well.  Also, it's my finding that points don't do as well on 
our old seasonally driven cars as they did when the cars were daily drivers. 
The points tend to deteriorate / coat / corrode faster when the car sits for 
a few months, especially in damp climates.  The maintenance factor alone is 
enough for me.

With the electronics, I've always kept the parts that were removed from the 
distributor in a baggie in the car in order to be able to make a roadside 
repair in case of an electronic failure.  I'm convinced that having the bits 
necessary to get me running again just might help to keep the electronic 
'Leprechauns' away.  I plan on carrying a complete known good spare 
distributor with points installed, and a wired spare cap, along with at 
least a couple of rotors, in the BJ8 in order to convince the 123 to not 
fail.

I also use electronic fuel pumps in both cars for similar reasons - they are 
diaphragm pumps and click satisfactorily, just like the originals.

It's worth noting that if you are considering switching the car to NEG 
ground, the time to do that (if not already done) would be before ordering 
any electronic bits.

Earl Kagna
Victoria, B.C.
BJ8, BT7 tri-carb

-----Original Message----- 
From: Mitch
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 4:53 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

Hello,
B
am
pros. and cons. would be greatly appreciated..............I just want the 
best

[email-masked]

---

From: Derek Job <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:34:55 +0000

My recommendation is, .if you want electronic ignition.buy a Mazda.

Surely the maintenance of the points set up is part of the fun of owning a
classic car. Its hardly rocket science and a set of points costs about #2.50
and lasts 3000 miles or more. Whats the problem? Properly set up the
difference to electronic ignition is not noticeable, especially given the fact
that most people are just pootling around at 50 or 60 mph for a couple of
thousand miles a year. Meanwhile Healeys are being thrashed around Le Mans and
the Spa 6 hours, using points.

Come on guysstick to the way classics are supposed to be. I wonder if anyone
has ever fitted electronic ignition on a Model T?

Derek

On 14 Dec 2013, at 00:15, Earl Kagna <[email-masked]> wrote:

> My experience:  I've run electronic ignitions on both Healey for many years
- a Repco - which became Allison, which became Crane on my BJ8, approx. 120K
miles until it was taken off the road for restoration.  I've had a Pertronix
on the tri-carb for 18 years - 46K miles since installation. I've never had a
problem with either one.
a Lucas distributor - for looks only  - it functions the same as the normal
123.  The Pertronix (and some others) replace the 'switching' function only,
replacing the points and condenser, with the weights and springs in the
distributor still functioning to provide the mechanical advance.  It's
important to recognise that the mechanical part of the distributor is usually
worn on these old beasts, and should be repaired to correct specs regardless
of whether points or Pertronx (and others like it).
springs.  It uses the vacuum advance function by supplying the necessary
vacuum to a vacuum sensitive microchip on the circuit board - pretty
sophisticated for our old cars!  But it sure works well!  It's early days yet
for me - only about 2K miles on the 123, but I really like it so far.
> No-one has mentioned a couple of other things about using an electronic
ignition:  they tend to damp out 'wobble' from wear in the distributor - there
will be less timing fluctuation without a rubbing block on the dist. cam.  The
triggering slots or magnets being well outboard compared to points helps here
as well.  Also, it's my finding that points don't do as well on our old
seasonally driven cars as they did when the cars were daily drivers. The
points tend to deteriorate / coat / corrode faster when the car sits for a few
months, especially in damp climates.  The maintenance factor alone is enough
for me.
distributor in a baggie in the car in order to be able to make a roadside
repair in case of an electronic failure.  I'm convinced that having the bits
necessary to get me running again just might help to keep the electronic
'Leprechauns' away.  I plan on carrying a complete known good spare
distributor with points installed, and a wired spare cap, along with at least
a couple of rotors, in the BJ8 in order to convince the 123 to not fail.
> It's worth noting that if you are considering switching the car to NEG
ground, the time to do that (if not already done) would be before ordering any
electronic bits.
>
> Earl Kagna
> Victoria, B.C.
> BJ8, BT7 tri-carb
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Mitch
would
am
best
> what about ..Mallory,crane,etc.
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: Quentin Schweninger <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:05:20 -0500

Hello Bob.
You mentioned below that there were sometimes problems with cap/rotor
combinations with the pertronix ignition. Apparently thats what I have.
The cap center contact hits the rotor, about .050 before it seats on the
distributor body.
This is a new cap, (Moss 874-060) on a 25D6.
 I called Pertronix and the first technician was curious and asked me to make
sure the Collar was down all the way,
and asked me to measure what was interfering and how much.
When I called back I got another Tech. who insisted that I didn't have the
collar pushed down far enough.
The collar is located vertically on the distributer shaft by resting on the
distributor cam.
This tech told me, "we have made thousands of these and never had a problem".
Is this similar to the problems you are referring to?

Dave
BN7 II Daisy

On Dec 13, 2013, at 11:17 AM, Bob Spidell wrote:

Pertronix makes modules for both. The 6-cyl module requires a 'collar' with
magnets that sits under the rotor (sometimes causing problems with some
rotor/cap combinations). The 4-cyl module does not require the collar;
apparently, it senses the movement of the cam lobes (the 4-cyl distributor is
smaller than the 6-cyl and I don't think there's room for the collar anyway).

Bob

----- Original Message -----

From: "Reinhart Rosner" <[email-masked]>
To: "Tom Felts" <[email-masked]>, [email-masked], "Mitch"
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2013 5:58:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

Reinhart

Reinhart Rosner
55 100 BN 1
Vienna - Austria

[email-masked]

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

[email-masked]

---

From: Bob Spidell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:39:58 +0000 (UTC)

What I've heard--note: second/third-hand--is that the collar causes the rotor to ride too high; possibly causing the rotor to contact the terminals or inside of the cap. Again, I have heard of such problems--probably either here or on the forum--but have not experienced them myself. 

Bob 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Quentin Schweninger" <[email-masked]> 
To: "Bob Spidell" <[email-masked]>, "Healey List" <[email-masked]> 
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:05:20 PM 
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition 

Hello Bob. 
You mentioned below that there were sometimes problems with cap/rotor combinations with the pertronix ignition. Apparently thats what I have. 
The cap center contact hits the rotor, about .050 before it seats on the distributor body. 
This is a new cap, (Moss 874-060) on a 25D6. 
I called Pertronix and the first technician was curious and asked me to make sure the Collar was down all the way, 
and asked me to measure what was interfering and how much. 
When I called back I got another Tech. who insisted that I didn't have the collar pushed down far enough. 
The collar is located vertically on the distributer shaft by resting on the distributor cam. 
This tech told me, "we have made thousands of these and never had a problem". 
Is this similar to the problems you are referring to? 

Dave 
BN7 II Daisy 

Bob 
mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked] 
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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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---

From: "Udo P" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:30:58 -0800

Actual, the magnet sleeve from Pertronix raised the rotor by 0.5mm and this
can cause the rotor cap contact. The second issue with the Pertronix is
sometimes that the baseplate and magnet sleeve is in contact. Friction
against the advance adjustment with no or late advance adjustment and
breaking of the rotor is the result. Ask me why I know this. I sold the
first BMW 6 cylinder units modified for Austin Healey 20 years ago before
Pertronix picked up on this market.

Udo Putzke
Putzkes-FAHRSPASS
www.putzkes-fahrspass.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Bob Spidell
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 1:40 PM
To: Quentin Schweninger
Cc: Healey List
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition

What I've heard--note: second/third-hand--is that the collar causes the
rotor to ride too high; possibly causing the rotor to contact the terminals
or inside of the cap. Again, I have heard of such problems--probably either
here or on the forum--but have not experienced them myself. 

Bob 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Quentin Schweninger" <[email-masked]>
To: "Bob Spidell" <[email-masked]>, "Healey List"
<[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2013 12:05:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Points vs electronic ignition 

Hello Bob. 
You mentioned below that there were sometimes problems with cap/rotor
combinations with the pertronix ignition. Apparently thats what I have. 
The cap center contact hits the rotor, about .050 before it seats on the
distributor body. 
This is a new cap, (Moss 874-060) on a 25D6. 
I called Pertronix and the first technician was curious and asked me to make
sure the Collar was down all the way, and asked me to measure what was
interfering and how much. 
When I called back I got another Tech. who insisted that I didn't have the
collar pushed down far enough. 
The collar is located vertically on the distributer shaft by resting on the
distributor cam. 
This tech told me, "we have made thousands of these and never had a
problem". 
Is this similar to the problems you are referring to? 

Dave
BN7 II Daisy 

Pertronix makes modules for both. The 6-cyl module requires a 'collar' with
magnets that sits under the rotor (sometimes causing problems with some
rotor/cap combinations). The 4-cyl module does not require the collar;
apparently, it senses the movement of the cam lobes (the 4-cyl distributor
is smaller than the 6-cyl and I don't think there's room for the collar
anyway). 

Bob 

[email-masked]

http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/[email-masked]
_______________________________________________
Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

[email-masked]