Subject: Re: [Healeys] Electrical - general questions BT7

From: Michael Salter <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 23:23:09 -0500

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Hi John,
Yes you can test the generator output at the battery.
Hook a volt meter up to the battery terminals check the voltage then start
the engine. If the voltage increases half a volt or so at 2000 RPM then the
generator is probably OK.
In my experience a battery voltage after sitting a few hours should be
around 12.5 - 13 volts.
My guess would be a problem in the cabling to the starter or the starter
itself.
Connect your volt meter between the power stud on the starter and the
engine, disconnect the coil and watch the voltage as you crank the engine.
It should be at least 9 volts and the engine should crank over briskly.
If it is less connect the volt meter between the engine and the frame of
the car and crank the engine. Should get less than 1/2 volt showing.
If that is OK get a long piece of wire and connect the volt meter between
the battery -ve terminal, the one going to the solenoid, and the starter
power stud. Voltage drop should be less than 2 volts when cranking.
Then do a voltage drop test, the same as you have been doing above, between
the battery +ve and the frame. That tests the master switch and the voltage
drop should be less than 1 volt.
>From those tests you should be able to figure out what is wrong.
If you need help interpreting the results of those tests let me know.

Michael S
BN1 #174

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 10:53 PM, John Spaur <[email-masked]> wrote=
:

> I could not start the Healey recently. It was acting like a dead battery
> because the starter would not turn the engine over. I think it is because
> the Bendix spring on the starter had broken but I started trouble shootin=
g
> the electrical system and now I have some questions.
>
>
>
> The battery voltage was reading around 12.64 volts. After charging the
> battery it read 13.06 volts. After driving for 30 minutes the battery
> voltage had dropped down to 12.76 volts or so.
>
>
>
> What should the voltage read on a 12V battery that is about 2 years old
> with monthly driving after a short drive?
>
>
>
> The specs. state the maximum output for the generator is 13.5 volts at
> 1,700-1,900 r.p.m. I cannot test my generator right now, but should I
> expect to read 13.5 volts when I test my rebuilt generator?
>
>
>
> Can I read the voltage output of the generator at the battery terminals
> while the car is running?
>
>
>
> To test the output of the generator the shop manual says to disconnect th=
e
> cables from the generator and to connect the terminals with a short piece
> of wire. I presume it means to connect the terminals on the generator. Is
> that correct?
>
>
>
> Electrical work is not my strong point. Many thanks for any help.
>
>
>
> John Spaur
>
> =E2=80=9962 BT7
>
>
>
>
>
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>

--=20
*If you can't fix it with a hammer, you've got an electrical problem.*

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sa=
ns ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Hi John,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Yes yo=
u can test the generator output at the battery. <br>Hook a volt meter up to=
 the battery terminals check the voltage then start the engine. If the volt=
age increases half a volt or so at 2000 RPM then the generator is probably =
OK.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans m=
s,sans-serif;font-size:small">In my experience a battery voltage after sitt=
ing a few hours should be around 12.5 - 13 volts. <br></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small=
">My guess would be a problem in the cabling to the starter or the starter =
itself. <br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic s=
ans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Connect your volt meter between the powe=
r stud on the starter and the engine, disconnect the coil and watch the vol=
tage as you crank the engine. It should be at least 9 volts and the engine =
should crank over briskly.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"f=
ont-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">If it is less connect =
the volt meter between the engine and the frame of the car and crank the en=
gine. Should get less than 1/2 volt showing.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">If t=
hat is OK get a long piece of wire and connect the volt meter between the b=
attery -ve terminal, the one going to the solenoid, and the starter power s=
tud. Voltage drop should be less than 2 volts when cranking.<br></div><div =
class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-=
size:small">Then do a voltage drop test, the same as you have been doing ab=
ove, between the battery +ve and the frame. That tests the master switch an=
d the voltage drop should be less than 1 volt.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Fr=
om those tests you should be able to figure out what is wrong.<br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small">If you need help interpreting the results of those tests let =
me know.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic s=
ans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small">Michael S<br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-=
serif;font-size:small">BN1 #174<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:comic sans ms,sans-serif;font-size:small"><br></div></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19, 20=
15 at 10:53 PM, John Spaur <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmsdarch=
@sbcglobal.net" target=3D"_blank">[email-masked]</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F7=
2" lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I could not start the Healey =
recently. It was acting like a dead battery because the starter would not t=
urn the engine over. I think it is because the Bendix spring on the starter=
 had broken but I started trouble shooting the electrical system and now I =
have some questions.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The battery voltage was reading around 12.=
64 volts. After charging the battery it read 13.06 volts. After driving for=
 30 minutes the battery voltage had dropped down to 12.76 volts or so.<u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal">What should the voltage read on a 12V battery that is about 2 years=
 old with monthly driving after a short drive?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The specs. state=
 the maximum output for the generator is 13.5 volts at 1,700-1,900 r.p.m. I=
 cannot test my generator right now, but should I expect to read 13.5 volts=
 when I test my rebuilt generator?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Can I read the voltage outpu=
t of the generator at the battery terminals while the car is running?<u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal">To test the output of the generator the shop manual says to disconne=
ct the cables from the generator and to connect the terminals with a short =
piece of wire. I presume it means to connect the terminals on the generator=
. Is that correct?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Electrical work is not my strong point. Many=
 thanks for any help.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">John Spaur<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">=E2=80=9962 BT7<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div></div=
><br>_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"gmail=
_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><i><font><span style=3D"=
color:black">If you can&#39;t fix it with a hammer, you&#39;ve got an elect=
rical problem.</span></font></i><br><br><div></div><div></div><div></div></=
div></div></div></div>
</div>

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Archive: http://www.team.net/archive

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From: Richard Ewald <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2015 20:56:05 -0800

First off battery voltages: a wet cell battery produces 2.12V/cell when fully charged.  
So a fully charged 12V is 2.12 X 6= 12.72V. Anything above 12.6V is accepted as fully charged
Anything above 12.72 is surface charge that has to be removed for testing by letting the battery sit or turning on the headlights for about a minute. 
So: 12.6 fully charged
12.4. 3/4 charge
12.25. 1/2 charge
12.0 1/4 charge
Michael, your numbers for voltage drops is too high by a factor of at least 2 if not more. 
Auto industry standard for a starter cable voltage drop is 0.2V +0.1V for each connection or solenoid, so you get a standard spec of .2+.1+.1+.1=0.5V not 2.0V. Now the Healey has a long + cable so I might accept a drop of a little more than 0.5V but for sure I would be doing a repair on 2V. On the ground side I would expect about0.3V not 1V like you said. 
Rick

Sent from my iPhone

[email-masked]

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From: Michael <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2015 18:47:56 +1300

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I'm sure that you are correct Richard but my numbers are just based on the =
results of many such tests.
I have found that the thin brass crimped cable terminations that were used =
on the original cables perform very poorly, so much so that they get warm a=
fter a few seconds of starter cranking even when in good condition.
Also, by my count, there are 4 connections on the supply side and 4 more on=
 the ground side plus the solenoid and the master switch (which usually has=
 fairly considerable resistance), many more than current vehicles.=20
I have also found that the original starters are serious current hogs compa=
red to more modern reduction gear units...I've seen over 400 amps stalled a=
nd not a lot less when slowly turning a very cold engine.
Granted the tests I suggested won't really show the true voltage that the s=
tarter is seeing but hopefully they will point John in the right direction.
Hardly surprising that your typically Healey cranks fairly slowly even when=
 things are in good condition.
Michael S
BN1 #174

-----Original Message-----
From: "Richard Ewald" <[email-masked]>
Sent: =E2=80=8E20/=E2=80=8E02/=E2=80=8E2015 5:56 p.m.
To: "Michael Salter" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "John Spaur" <[email-masked]>; "[email-masked]" <healey=
[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Electrical - general questions BT7

First off battery voltages: a wet cell battery produces 2.12V/cell when ful=
ly charged. =20
So a fully charged 12V is 2.12 X 6=3D 12.72V. Anything above 12.6V is accep=
ted as fully charged
Anything above 12.72 is surface charge that has to be removed for testing b=
y letting the battery sit or turning on the headlights for about a minute.=
=20
So: 12.6 fully charged
12.4. 3/4 charge
12.25. 1/2 charge
12.0 1/4 charge
Michael, your numbers for voltage drops is too high by a factor of at least=
 2 if not more.=20
Auto industry standard for a starter cable voltage drop is 0.2V +0.1V for e=
ach connection or solenoid, so you get a standard spec of .2+.1+.1+.1=3D0.5=
V not 2.0V. Now the Healey has a long + cable so I might accept a drop of a=
 little more than 0.5V but for sure I would be doing a repair on 2V. On the=
 ground side I would expect about0.3V not 1V like you said.=20
Rick

Sent from my iPhone=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body><div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; =
font-size: 11pt;">I'm sure that you are correct Richard but my numbers are =
just based on the results of many such tests.<br>I have found that the thin=
 brass crimped cable terminations that were used on the original cables per=
form very poorly, so much so that they get warm after a few seconds of star=
ter cranking even when in good condition.<br>Also, by my count, there are 4=
 connections on the supply side and 4 more on the ground side plus the sole=
noid and the master switch (which usually has fairly considerable resistanc=
e), many more than current vehicles. <br>I have also found that the origina=
l starters are serious current hogs compared to more modern reduction gear =
units...I've seen over 400 amps stalled and not a lot less when slowly turn=
ing a very cold engine.<br>Granted the tests I suggested won't really show =
the true voltage that the starter is seeing but hopefully they will point J=
ohn in the right direction.<br>Hardly surprising that your typically Healey=
 cranks fairly slowly even when things are in good condition.<br>Michael S<=
br>BN1 #174</div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><hr><span style=3D"font-family: Cal=
ibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">From: </span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a href=3D"mailto=
:[email-masked]">Richard Ewald</a></span><br><span style=3D"font-f=
amily: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Sent: </spa=
n><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;">=E2=80=
=8E20/=E2=80=8E02/=E2=80=8E2015 5:56 p.m.</span><br><span style=3D"font-fam=
ily: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">To: </span><s=
pan style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a href=3D"=
mailto:[email-masked]">Michael Salter</a></span><br><span style=3D=
"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Cc: =
</span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;"><a=
 href=3D"mailto:[email-masked]">John Spaur</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:h=
[email-masked]">[email-masked]</a></span><br><span style=3D"=
font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">Subje=
ct: </span><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri,sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;=
">Re: [Healeys] Electrical - general questions BT7</span><br><br></div>Firs=
t off battery voltages: a wet cell battery produces 2.12V/cell when fully c=
harged.&nbsp; <br>So a fully charged 12V is 2.12 X 6=3D 12.72V. Anything ab=
ove 12.6V is accepted as fully charged<br>Anything above 12.72 is surface c=
harge that has to be removed for testing by letting the battery sit or turn=
ing on the headlights for about a minute. <br>So: 12.6 fully charged<br>12.=
4. 3/4 charge<br>12.25. 1/2 charge<br>12.0 1/4 charge<br>Michael, your numb=
ers for voltage drops is too high by a factor of at least 2 if not more. <b=
r>Auto industry standard for a starter cable voltage drop is 0.2V +0.1V for=
 each connection or solenoid, so you get a standard spec of .2+.1+.1+.1=3D0=
.5V not 2.0V. Now the Healey has a long + cable so I might accept a drop of=
 a little more than 0.5V but for sure I would be doing a repair on 2V. On t=
he ground side I would expect about0.3V not 1V like you said. <br>Rick<br><=
br>Sent from my iPhone</body></html>=

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[email-masked]

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