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From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 06:41:21 -0600
To: "mgs@autox.team.net List" <mgs@autox.team.net>
Subject: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============8430459996447196233==

--0000000000005a0d5f05ed59717b

Hello friends,
   Before I comment on my two MGs I'd like to write a few words about a
recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic
repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But
before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group's members:
Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal.
   I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this group
and Rui via another group, if now he's also here. Rui I met face-to-face in
Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke face-to-face just a
few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you.
   I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, although I still
read all posts. So here's my update.
   I currently have two MGs. The '53 TD that I restored a few years back,
and a '72 MGB that I'm just finishing 'restoring' to 'driver' status.
   The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just before
the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew out the
so-called seals on one 'new' rear slave cylinder, spilling brake fluid
everywhere. I'll try to refrain from rude comments about the 'new'
cylinder's country of origin but suffice to say, I'm disappointed - again.
   One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid within
the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, or can the
shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; Should I order
new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder?
   The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it's all new and a
few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That's it
for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic.
   With that all said, et me conclude by saying it's nice to be back
chatting.

Rick

--0000000000005a0d5f05ed59717b
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Hello friends,<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Before I com=
ment on my two MGs I&#39;d like to write a few words about a recent trip. N=
ancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic repositioning cr=
uise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But before that crossing =
we spent ten days with two of this group&#39;s members: Hans Duinhoven in t=
he Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this gr=
oup and Rui via another group, if now he&#39;s also here. Rui I met face-to=
-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke face-to-fa=
ce just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you.</div><div d=
ir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I have been absent from this group for ages it see=
ms, although I still read all posts. So here&#39;s my update.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I currently have two MGs. The &#39;53 TD that I rest=
ored a few years back, and a &#39;72 MGB that I&#39;m just finishing &#39;r=
estoring&#39; to &#39;driver&#39; status.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just before =
the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew out the so=
-called seals on one &#39;new&#39; rear slave cylinder, spilling brake flui=
d everywhere. I&#39;ll try to refrain from rude comments about the &#39;new=
&#39; cylinder&#39;s country of origin but suffice to say, I&#39;m disappoi=
nted - again.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0One question for the MG b=
rain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid within the drum have permanently d=
amaged the new brake shoes&#39; linings, or can the shoes be washed clean w=
ith brake cleaner? Said another way; Should I order new brake shoes when I =
order the new slave cylinder?</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0The MGB j=
ust needs one more brake system bleed since it&#39;s all new and a few air =
bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That&#39;s it for me=
chanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0With that all said, et me conclude by saying it&#39;s nice to =
be back chatting.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</=
div></div>

--0000000000005a0d5f05ed59717b--

--===============8430459996447196233==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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From: Robert's New iPad <mgbobh@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 10:09:44 -0500
References: <CAOc+-dzC89wR8w8adxfYRw1hhCW3A0KYXiHEnC=S1yk0U7YdAA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends
Cc: "mgs@autox.team.net List" <mgs@autox.team.net>
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References: <CAOc+-dzC89wR8w8adxfYRw1hhCW3A0KYXiHEnC=S1yk0U7YdAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7AECA71D-101A-48BF-89DE-E18FCFA60839@gmail.com>
From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 13:08:04 -0600
To: "Robert's New iPad" <mgbobh@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends
Cc: "mgs@autox.team.net List" <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============5775753679676793437==

--0000000000005d6e2f05ed5ed8df
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you for the tips, Bob! Rui and Hans, like most car guys, are really
nice people.

R.

On Sun, Nov 13, 2022, 9:09 AM Robert's New iPad <mgbobh@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Rick,
>         It=E2=80=99s good to read of your adventures, and to learn of you=
r
> connection with Hans and Rui whom I know only by this list=E2=80=99s corr=
espondence.
>         Do you still have the original wheel cylinders for TD?  Mine were
> pitted; I bought new. Then I disliked the apparent cheesiness of them so =
I
> had my originals sleeved.
>         Many say that you can clean the wet shoes with brake cleaner.
> Probably so, though I would put one of the contaminated/cleaned shoes on
> each side, so any loss of effectiveness would be shared. And, I would put
> that shoe as the =E2=80=98trailing=E2=80=99 shoe on the wheels, as we don=
=E2=80=99t do much serious
> braking in reverse.
>         Me? For the cost of a new set of shoes I would buy the set.  Chec=
k
> Abingdon Spares site, as not too long ago they were on sale.
> Bob
>
>
> > On Nov 13, 2022, at 7:41 AM, Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com=
>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello friends,
> >    Before I comment on my two MGs I'd like to write a few words about a
> recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a trans-Atlantic
> repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! Whew! But
> before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group's members:
> Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal.
> >    I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans via this
> group and Rui via another group, if now he's also here. Rui I met
> face-to-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tineke
> face-to-face just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you.
> >    I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, although I
> still read all posts. So here's my update.
> >    I currently have two MGs. The '53 TD that I restored a few years
> back, and a '72 MGB that I'm just finishing 'restoring' to 'driver' statu=
s.
> >    The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I installed just
> before the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it blew o=
ut
> the so-called seals on one 'new' rear slave cylinder, spilling brake flui=
d
> everywhere. I'll try to refrain from rude comments about the 'new'
> cylinder's country of origin but suffice to say, I'm disappointed - again=
.
> >    One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of brake fluid
> within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes' linings, or
> can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another way; Shoul=
d
> I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder?
> >    The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it's all new an=
d
> a few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure places. That's i=
t
> for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmetic.
> >    With that all said, et me conclude by saying it's nice to be back
> chatting.
> >
> > Rick
> > _______________________________________________
> >
> > Mgs@autox.team.net
> > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> > Suggested annual donation  $12.75
> >
> > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archiv=
e
> >
> > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh@gmail.com
>

--0000000000005d6e2f05ed5ed8df
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Thank you for the tips, Bob! Rui and Hans, like most car =
guys, are really nice people.<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">=
R.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Sun, Nov 13, 2022, 9:09 AM Robert&#39;s New iPad &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:mgbobh@gmail.com">mgbobh@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Rick,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s good to read of your adventures, a=
nd to learn of your connection with Hans and Rui whom I know only by this l=
ist=E2=80=99s correspondence.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Do you still have the original wheel cylinders =
for TD?=C2=A0 Mine were pitted; I bought new. Then I disliked the apparent =
cheesiness of them so I had my originals sleeved.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Many say that you can clean the wet shoes with =
brake cleaner. Probably so, though I would put one of the contaminated/clea=
ned shoes on each side, so any loss of effectiveness would be shared. And, =
I would put that shoe as the =E2=80=98trailing=E2=80=99 shoe on the wheels,=
 as we don=E2=80=99t do much serious braking in reverse.<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Me? For the cost of a new set of shoes I would =
buy the set.=C2=A0 Check Abingdon Spares site, as not too long ago they wer=
e on sale.<br>
Bob<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On Nov 13, 2022, at 7:41 AM, Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ric=
hardolindsay@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">richardolindsa=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hello friends,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Before I comment on my two MGs I&#39;d like to write a fe=
w words about a recent trip. Nancy and I just returned from Portugal on a t=
rans-Atlantic repositioning cruise. 13 days sailing from Lisbon to Tampa! W=
hew! But before that crossing we spent ten days with two of this group&#39;=
s members: Hans Duinhoven in the Netherlands and Rui Gigante in Portugal.<b=
r>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have known both Hans and Rui for over two decades, Hans=
 via this group and Rui via another group, if now he&#39;s also here. Rui I=
 met face-to-face in Italy in about 1999, and I met Hans and his wife Tinek=
e face-to-face just a few weeks ago. All are such lovely people. Thank you.=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I have been absent from this group for ages it seems, alt=
hough I still read all posts. So here&#39;s my update.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I currently have two MGs. The &#39;53 TD that I restored =
a few years back, and a &#39;72 MGB that I&#39;m just finishing &#39;restor=
ing&#39; to &#39;driver&#39; status.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The TD needed a new brake master cylinder which I install=
ed just before the overseas trip. It works great! So great in fact that it =
blew out the so-called seals on one &#39;new&#39; rear slave cylinder, spil=
ling brake fluid everywhere. I&#39;ll try to refrain from rude comments abo=
ut the &#39;new&#39; cylinder&#39;s country of origin but suffice to say, I=
&#39;m disappointed - again.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 One question for the MG brain trust: Will the gush of bra=
ke fluid within the drum have permanently damaged the new brake shoes&#39; =
linings, or can the shoes be washed clean with brake cleaner? Said another =
way; Should I order new brake shoes when I order the new slave cylinder?<br=
>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The MGB just needs one more brake system bleed since it&#=
39;s all new and a few air bubbles are almost certainly hiding in obscure p=
laces. That&#39;s it for mechanical tweaks. Everything left to do is cosmet=
ic.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 With that all said, et me conclude by saying it&#39;s nic=
e to be back chatting.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Rick<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:Mgs@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefer=
rer">Mgs@autox.team.net</a><br>
&gt; Donate: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html" rel=3D"noreferrer =
noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
&gt; Suggested annual donation=C2=A0 $12.75<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs" rel=3D"noreferr=
er noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs</a> <a h=
ref=3D"http://autox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Unsubscribe: <a href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbo=
bh@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.=
team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mgbobh@gmail.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000005d6e2f05ed5ed8df--

--===============5775753679676793437==
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

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Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2022 18:17:34 -0600
From: Richard Lindsay <rolindsay@yahoo.com>
To: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Importance: Normal
References: <35421437-0c12-4bdb-9821-5e02613454fa.ref@email.android.com>
 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends
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--===============3724148817972366716==
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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 04:58:21 -0600
From: Richard Lindsay <rolindsay@yahoo.com>
To: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Importance: Normal
References: <bed3e709-9e46-4301-af08-9fc3e0939aa9.ref@email.android.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mgs] Two MGs and friends
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--===============8729084232445224226==
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--===============8729084232445224226==
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_______________________________________________

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--===============8729084232445224226==--

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 Nov 2022 03:53:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 05:53:44 -0600
To: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============2492415041313980318==

--000000000000bf087005ed810235

Hello MG friends,
   I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called
'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging
from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the
collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so
cars in total were on display.
   Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and
another a worrisome trend.
   Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old
men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that
our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine
because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where
are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away?
And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars
left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.
   Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are
being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so
many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be
restored?
   I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of
the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold
prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial
computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial
computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights
where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if
one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the
whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position
computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the
'burned out bulb'? Yea right.
   My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that
modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really
restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential
enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the
extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt
electric car? Yikes.
   So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the
old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says
that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we
should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids.
Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure
help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling
spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a
kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.
   As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a
Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but
'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.

Yes, YMMV,

Rick

--000000000000bf087005ed810235
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Hello MG friends,<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recentl=
y attended an &#39;All British Car Show&#39; in a neighborhood called &#39;=
The Woodlands&#39;, here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging=
 from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the coll=
ection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in=
 total were on display.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came=
 to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and another a worrisome=
 trend.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, almost all of the MG o=
wners and restorers were gray haired old men. Now, I won&#39;t make any gen=
der related comments but it is obvious that our hobby and passion lives on,=
 mostly in old people. That&#39;s just fine because retired people have mor=
e free time to pursue the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will the=
re be replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars=
? I already see too many cars left=C2=A0languishing or worse, decaying in g=
arages and storage.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondly, I w=
onder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are being restored to=
day? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#39; may always be popular but so many of the=
m are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be restored?</d=
iv><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 b=
ecause it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore couldn&#39;t pass safety and=
 emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts for that car are still avai=
lable, if at better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, =
repair, and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss=
?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old =
strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! We=
ll, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission reverse safet=
y switch goes out, the whole network goes down. Everything from the engine =
to the seat position computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnosti=
c tool to find the &#39;burned out bulb&#39;? Yea right.</div><div dir=3D"a=
uto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0My point isn&#39;t to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s =
to make the point that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic o=
nes, just aren&#39;t really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next gen=
eration of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fea=
r so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a=
 400 volt electric car? Yikes.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0So=
 what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the old B=
ritish cars that we can. Wait! Don&#39;t we already do that?! My wife says =
that, &quot;I never met an &#39;old junk car&#39; that I didn&#39;t love!&q=
uot; I also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger peo=
ple, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only =
might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there&#39;s =
lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can&#=
39;t teach! There is a kind of perverse value in &#39;busted knuckles&#39;.=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0As we say, &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grand=
son loves my old cars and he can handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly.=
 My granddaughter likes the cars too but &#39;My Little Ponies&#39; are mor=
e fun, for now.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, YMM=
V,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</div></div>

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Mgs@autox.team.net

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

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From mgs-bounces@autox.team.net  Tue Nov 15 05:46:51 2022
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From: "steve@coastaldatasystems.com" <swestfisher@coastaldatasystems.com>
To: "'Richard Lindsay'" <richardolindsay@gmail.com>,
 "'MGs'" <mgs@autox.team.net>
References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:36:17 -0500
Content-Language: en-us
Thread-Index: AQHXQPS8cBX9Om1afPZz9Ut6tZTob65DWqQg
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

This is a multipart message in MIME format.

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This is a multipart message in MIME format.

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I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing =
about the EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. =
They would say these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, =
whatever due to the complex electronics.

The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to =
be a =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on =
a modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doing =
it. And they will find a way in the future.

=20

=20

Steve West-Fisher

N4IK

=20

From: Mgs <mgs-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Richard Lindsay
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM
To: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Subject: [Mgs] Diminishing returns

=20

Hello MG friends,

   I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood =
called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs =
ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all =
dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate =
about 30 or so cars in total were on display.

   Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, =
and another a worrisome trend.

   Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired =
old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious =
that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just =
fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But =
where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we =
fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars =
left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=20

   Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars =
are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular =
but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer =
cars can be restored?

   I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN =
buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most =
of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at =
better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, =
and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a =
CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old strings =
of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, =
except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission reverse safety =
switch goes out, the whole network goes down. Everything from the engine =
to the seat position computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the =
diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.

   My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point =
that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just =
aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of =
potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. =
And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a =
400 volt electric car? Yikes.=20

   So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all =
the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My =
wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I =
also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, =
especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only =
might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's =
lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just =
can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.

   As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle =
a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too =
but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.

=20

Yes, YMMV,

=20

Rick


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link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>I recall back in the =
=E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing about the EFI and fuel =
injection that started showing up in new cars. They would say these cars =
can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to the complex =
electronics.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The kids of today will =
find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to be a =
=E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on a =
modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. =
And they will find a way in the future.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'mso-element:para-border-div;border:none;border-bottom:solid =
windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'border:none;padding:0in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Steve West-Fisher<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>N4IK<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Mgs =
&lt;mgs-bounces@autox.team.net&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard =
Lindsay<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
MGs &lt;mgs@autox.team.net&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> [Mgs] Diminishing =
returns<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hello =
MG friends,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;I =
recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called =
'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging =
from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the =
collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so =
cars in total were on display.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;Two issues came to mind, one obvious from =
talking with the owners, and another a worrisome =
trend.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray =
haired old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is =
obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. =
That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue =
the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements =
for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see =
too many cars left&nbsp;languishing or worse, decaying in garages and =
storage.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars =
are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular =
but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer =
cars can be restored?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 =
because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and =
emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts for that car are still =
available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can =
diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's =
CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly =
unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, =
they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the =
transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes =
down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do =
you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out =
bulb'? Yea right.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point =
that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just =
aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of =
potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. =
And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a =
400 volt electric car? Yikes.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;So what should we do? Well, first of all =
I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't =
we already do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an 'old junk =
car' that I didn't love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars =
and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech =
sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve =
our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that =
wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a kind of =
perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp; &nbsp;As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves =
my old cars and he can handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My =
granddaughter likes the cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, =
for now.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, YMMV,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Rick<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
 <006301d8f8ee$dc3734a0$94a59de0$@coastaldatasystems.com>
From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 06:53:42 -0600
To: Stephen West-Fisher <steve@coastaldatasystems.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============0115585144559709292==

--0000000000002f7be305ed81d9e1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

   I hope you're right Steve, but I might add that 'finding a way' and
'modifying' isn't really 'restoring'. Also, at least here in Texas,
touching anything on a car that might affect emissions is illegal. Taken to
the extreme, just changing an air filter might be considered 'illegal'. And
all cars younger than 25 years have to pass inspection. That means the
OBDII has to verify that the car is still clean and safe. One can't
register a car in Texas with a failed inspection.
   I'm sorry to sound negative and defeatist. I have just had a couple of
bad experiences. One from the inability to source a NLA mass air sensor for
a Mondial T, and the other, the CAN buss in the XK8. Both of these issues
were solvable but at terrible expense and arguably  difficult in the home
garage.
   I should add that I do have more modern cars that I maintain at home
(illegally?): an '84 BMW 633CSi and a '91 M-B 300SL. Both with manual
gearboxes. Parts for these cars are readily available since they are shared
with other models in their makers' lines.

Rick
WD4KIB

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:36 AM steve@coastaldatasystems.com <
swestfisher@coastaldatasystems.com> wrote:

> I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly the same thing ab=
out the
> EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in new cars. They would sa=
y
> these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hopped up, whatever due to t=
he complex
> electronics.
>
> The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different skillset to b=
e a
> =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management system on a mod=
ern engine with
> something aftermarket, but folks are still doing it. And they will find a
> way in the future.
>
>
>
>
>
> Steve West-Fisher
>
> N4IK
>
>
>
> *From:* Mgs <mgs-bounces@autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Richard Lindsay
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2022 6:54 AM
> *To:* MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Mgs] Diminishing returns
>
>
>
> Hello MG friends,
>
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called
> 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging
> from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the
> collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so
> cars in total were on display.
>
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and
> another a worrisome trend.
>
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired ol=
d
> men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that
> our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine
> because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where
> are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away=
?
> And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars
> left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.
>
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are
> being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so
> many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be
> restored?
>
>    I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most o=
f
> the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold
> prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial
> computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial
> computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights
> where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if
> one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the
> whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position
> computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the
> 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.
>
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point tha=
t
> modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't real=
ly
> restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential
> enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the
> extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt
> electric car? Yikes.
>
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all th=
e
> old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife sa=
ys
> that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we
> should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kid=
s.
> Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure
> help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling
> spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a
> kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.
>
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle =
a
> Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but
> 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
>
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
>
>
> Rick
>

--0000000000002f7be305ed81d9e1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0I hope you&#39;re right Steve, but I mi=
ght add that &#39;finding a way&#39; and &#39;modifying&#39; isn&#39;t real=
ly &#39;restoring&#39;. Also, at least here in Texas, touching anything on =
a car that might affect emissions is illegal. Taken to the extreme, just ch=
anging an air filter might be considered &#39;illegal&#39;. And all cars yo=
unger than 25 years have to pass inspection. That means the OBDII has to ve=
rify that the car is still clean and safe. One can&#39;t register a car in =
Texas with a failed inspection.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I&#39;m=
 sorry to sound negative and defeatist. I have just had a couple of bad exp=
eriences. One from the inability to source a NLA mass air sensor for a Mond=
ial T, and the other, the CAN buss in the XK8. Both of these issues were so=
lvable but at terrible expense and arguably=C2=A0 difficult in the home gar=
age.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I should add that I do have more m=
odern cars that I maintain at home (illegally?): an &#39;84 BMW 633CSi and =
a &#39;91 M-B 300SL. Both with manual gearboxes. Parts for these cars are r=
eadily available since they are shared with other models in their makers&#3=
9; lines.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</div><div=
 dir=3D"auto">WD4KIB</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" =
dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 6:=
36 AM <a href=3D"mailto:steve@coastaldatasystems.com">steve@coastaldatasyst=
ems.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:swestfisher@coastaldatasystems.com">swest=
fisher@coastaldatasystems.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D"w=
ord-wrap:break-word"><div class=3D"m_-8501750994170398879WordSection1"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">I recall back in the =E2=80=9880s people saying exactly =
the same thing about the EFI and fuel injection that started showing up in =
new cars. They would say these cars can=E2=80=99t be fixed, modified, hoppe=
d up, whatever due to the complex electronics.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D=
"MsoNormal">The kids of today will find a way. It=E2=80=99s a different ski=
llset to be a =E2=80=9Ctuner=E2=80=9D, or replace the engine management sys=
tem on a modern engine with something aftermarket, but folks are still doin=
g it. And they will find a way in the future.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-bottom:=
solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 1.0pt 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"border:none;padding:0in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal">Steve West-Fisher<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">N4IK<u>=
</u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div style=3D=
"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mgs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mgs-bounces@autox=
.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mgs-bounces@autox.team.net<=
/a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard Lindsay<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, Novemb=
er 15, 2022 6:54 AM<br><b>To:</b> MGs &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mgs@autox.team.=
net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">mgs@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Subject:</b> [Mgs] Diminishing returns<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello MG frie=
nds,<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently a=
ttended an &#39;All British Car Show&#39; in a neighborhood called &#39;The=
 Woodlands&#39;, here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging fr=
om a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collect=
ion of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in to=
tal were on display.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners=
, and another a worrisome trend.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers we=
re gray haired old men. Now, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments b=
ut it is obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people.=
 That&#39;s just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue =
the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for=
 us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too ma=
ny cars left=C2=A0languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondl=
y, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are being resto=
red today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#39; may always be popular but so many =
of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be restor=
ed?<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recen=
tly gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and ther=
efore couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair=
 parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but=
 how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer netwo=
rks like the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer ne=
twork not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one =
lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component l=
ike the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes=
 down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do yo=
u think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned out bulb&#=
39;? Yea right.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0My point isn&#39;t to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the =
point that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just ar=
en&#39;t really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of p=
otential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in=
 the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt el=
ectric car? Yikes.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should sa=
ve all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don&#39;t we already do that=
?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#39;old junk car&#39; that I di=
dn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars and our hobb=
y to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with=
 that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but a=
lso there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box contr=
oller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of perverse value in &#39;buste=
d knuckles&#39;.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0As we say, &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he ca=
n handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the car=
s too but &#39;My Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.<u></u><u></u></=
p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, YMMV,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Rick<u></u>=
<u></u></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div>

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References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:58:47 -0500
To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============8656298220634021914==

--000000000000d8c00b05ed81ec46

Hi, Rick. Regarding your first point, I have 2 comments - people tend to be
interested in the cars of their youth, so for many of a slightly older
generation than us (I am 64) that would mean cars from the '40's and '50's.
I've been to hot rod shows locally where many of the owners are in their
late 60's and '70's. I guess many of us around my age saw these little
British cars putting around in the '60's when we were kids and that kindled
our interest (I had a friend growing up whose Dad had an MGB-GT). I have a
nephew who is big into cars and he and his friends are into '80's cars like
BMW's and MR2's (he and his dad, my cousin, actually own several '80's BW's
and a first-gen MR2). So, while I wouldn't say the current generation isn't
into cars, it's just not the cars we like. And of course, current mod
trends include things like air bagging cars so they can be lowered to
within an inch of the pavement, negative camber wheels, loud farty
exhausts, crazy lights, etc. It;'s not what we like, but that's probably
part of the point...

Dan D
'76 MGB
Central NJ USA

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 7:01 AM Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello MG friends,
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called
> 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging
> from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the
> collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so
> cars in total were on display.
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and
> another a worrisome trend.
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old
> men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that
> our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine
> because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where
> are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away?
> And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars
> left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are
> being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so
> many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be
> restored?
>    I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of
> the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold
> prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial
> computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial
> computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights
> where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if
> one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the
> whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position
> computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the
> 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that
> modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really
> restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential
> enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the
> extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt
> electric car? Yikes.
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the
> old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says
> that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we
> should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids.
> Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure
> help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling
> spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a
> kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a
> Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but
> 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs@autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase@gmail.com
>

--000000000000d8c00b05ed81ec46
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi, Rick. Regarding your first=C2=A0point, I have 2 commen=
ts - people tend to be interested in the cars of their youth, so for many o=
f a slightly older generation than us (I am 64) that would mean=C2=A0cars f=
rom the &#39;40&#39;s and &#39;50&#39;s. I&#39;ve been to hot rod shows loc=
ally where many of the owners are in their late 60&#39;s and &#39;70&#39;s.=
 I guess many of us around my age saw these little British cars putting=C2=
=A0around in the &#39;60&#39;s when we were kids and that kindled our inter=
est (I had a friend growing up whose=C2=A0Dad had an MGB-GT). I have a neph=
ew who is big into cars and he and his friends=C2=A0are into &#39;80&#39;s =
cars like BMW&#39;s and MR2&#39;s (he and his dad, my cousin, actually own =
several &#39;80&#39;s BW&#39;s and a first-gen MR2). So, while I wouldn&#39=
;t say the current generation isn&#39;t into cars, it&#39;s just not the ca=
rs we like. And of course, current mod trends include things like air baggi=
ng cars so they can be lowered to within an inch of the pavement, negative =
camber wheels, loud farty exhausts, crazy lights, etc. It;&#39;s not what w=
e like, but that&#39;s probably part of the point...<div><br></div><div>Dan=
 D</div><div>&#39;76 MGB</div><div>Central NJ USA</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022=
 at 7:01 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richardolindsay@gmail.com=
">richardolindsay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hello MG friends,<div dir=3D"a=
uto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently attended an &#39;All British Car Show&#39; in =
a neighborhood called &#39;The Woodlands&#39;, here in South Texas. It was =
a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Toure=
rs, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I esti=
mate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the own=
ers, and another a worrisome trend.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Fir=
stly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old men. N=
ow, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments but it is obvious that our=
 hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That&#39;s just fine bec=
ause retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where are =
the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away? And =
what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars left=C2=A0languis=
hing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. Wha=
t cars are being restored today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#39; may always b=
e popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what ne=
wer cars can be restored?</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently ga=
ve away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss, and therefore =
couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of the repair parts=
 for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold prices, but how m=
any hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial computer networks li=
ke the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial computer network =
not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp g=
oes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like th=
e transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down.=
 Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you thin=
k Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned out bulb&#39;? Y=
ea right.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0My point isn&#39;t to critici=
ze Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the point that modern cars, especially =
the interesting and exotic ones, just aren&#39;t really restorable - not by=
 hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So =
is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do you want your gran=
dson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.=C2=A0</div><div =
dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, first of all I think =
we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don&#39;t we alr=
eady do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#39;old junk car&#3=
9; that I didn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should introduce our cars =
and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessio=
ns help with that. Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, =
maybe, but also there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an=
 X-Box controller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of perverse value i=
n &#39;busted knuckles&#39;.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0As we say,=
 &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a Whitw=
orth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but &#39;M=
y Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, YMMV,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Rick</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mgs@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank">Mgs@autox.team.net<=
/a><br>
et=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
<br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs</a> <a href=3D"http://au=
tox.team.net/archive" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.tea=
m.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
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se@gmail.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://autox.team.net/ma=
ilman/options/mgs/dan.dibiase@gmail.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:01:11 -0600
From: Richard Lindsay <rolindsay@yahoo.com>
To: "steve@coastaldatasystems.com" <swestfisher@coastaldatasystems.com>
Importance: Normal
References: <3b5864c0-4959-4c6f-b9e4-ab3a6789e7c8.ref@email.android.com>
 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: 'MGs' <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

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From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:03:33 -0600
To: Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============4816951180674460589==

--0000000000007050ba05ed81fcae

All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72.

R.

--0000000000007050ba05ed81fcae

<div dir="auto">All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I&#39;m just a few weeks away from 72.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">R.</div></div>

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From: PaulHunt73 <paulhunt73@virginmedia.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
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From mgs-bounces@autox.team.net  Tue Nov 15 07:27:06 2022
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References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+=b7RviAKQDx7SwOo1w=qKRHT7E_XpaTHGfriGVd+20Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAOc+-dyCU3Uapr57Fk66X-S+EK6p7fw7D30iZwUMrDdrL-18=Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:18:39 -0500
To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============1191547345605114036==

--000000000000ec033205ed823382

LOL, nothing personal Rick!

Dan

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:03 AM Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
wrote:

> All true Dan. Thanks. BTW, I'm just a few weeks away from 72.
>
> R.
>

--000000000000ec033205ed823382
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">LOL, nothing personal Rick!<div><br></div><div>Dan</div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:03 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:richard=
olindsay@gmail.com">richardolindsay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">All true Dan=
. Thanks. BTW, I&#39;m just a few weeks away from 72.<div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">R.</div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000ec033205ed823382--

--===============1191547345605114036==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

_______________________________________________

Mgs@autox.team.net

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mharc@autox.team.net

--===============1191547345605114036==--

From mgs-bounces@autox.team.net  Tue Nov 15 07:32:14 2022
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References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
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 <CABxEc+keYjeCkx-aPGZA1M5oH4JCVem8oQ5nUb0O5Jn1Jzyb1Q@mail.gmail.com>
From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 07:27:22 -0600
To: Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============8249747286400748493==

--0000000000008ee2be05ed8251d9

Of course not Dan (and Steve). I just like seeing MG notes arrive in my
inbox once again!

R

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 7:19 AM Dan DiBiase <dan.dibiase@gmail.com> wrote:

> LOL, nothing personal Rick!
>
> Dan
>

--0000000000008ee2be05ed8251d9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Of course not Dan (and Steve). I just like seeing MG=
 notes arrive in my inbox once again!=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></di=
v><div dir=3D"auto">R<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 7:19 AM Dan DiBiase &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dan.dibiase@gmail.com">dan.dibiase@gmail.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">LOL, nothing=
 personal Rick!<div><br></div><div>Dan</div></div></blockquote></div></div>=
<div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"auto"></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000008ee2be05ed8251d9--

--===============8249747286400748493==
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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_______________________________________________

Mgs@autox.team.net

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/mharc@autox.team.net

--===============8249747286400748493==--

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To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>, mgs@autox.team.net
References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

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Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 16:10:35 +0000 (UTC)
From: David Breneman <david_breneman@yahoo.com>
To: "mgs@autox.team.net" <mgs@autox.team.net>
References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABxEc+=b7RviAKQDx7SwOo1w=qKRHT7E_XpaTHGfriGVd+20Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

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	boundary="----=_Part_511260_364693767.1668528635817"

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I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that I bought as a commuter car (I'd driventhem a=
s rentals a couple times in Europe, and when "European-similar"models [unli=
ke the crummy hard plastic US-spec Focuses] came on themarket I got one).=
=C2=A0 It has been relatively trouble free until last spring,when the trans=
mission control module went out.=C2=A0 $2800.=C2=A0 Two successiveafter-mar=
ket modules lasted less than a week each.=C2=A0 Now the car is=20
sitting, since JUNE, waiting for a real Ford-built module.=C2=A0 Apparently=
Ford is flashing the chips by hand since they are no longer available fromt=
he original source due to Covid supply chain issues.=C2=A0 I just can'tbeli=
eve that any car made in this century, except really high-end carswhich hav=
e a lot of low-volume parts in them anyway, will be able tobe maintained in=
 drivable condition when they are 50 years old.

David Breneman david_breneman@yahoo.com=20


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<html><head></head><body><div class=3D"ydp88900954yahoo-style-wrap" style=
=3D"font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">I have a 2011 Ford Fiesta that I bought as=
 a commuter car (I'd driven</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">the=
m as rentals a couple times in Europe, and when "European-similar"</div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">models [unlike the crummy hard plastic =
US-spec Focuses] came on the</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">ma=
rket I got one).&nbsp; It has been relatively trouble free until last sprin=
g,</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">when the transmission contro=
l module went out.&nbsp; $2800.&nbsp; Two successive</div><div dir=3D"ltr" =
data-setdir=3D"false">after-market modules lasted less than a week each.&nb=
sp; Now the car is <br></div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">sitting=
, since JUNE, waiting for a real Ford-built module.&nbsp; Apparently</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">Ford is flashing the chips by hand si=
nce they are no longer available from</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"=
false">the original source due to Covid supply chain issues.&nbsp; I just c=
an't</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">believe that any car made =
in this century, except really high-end cars</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-set=
dir=3D"false">which have a lot of low-volume parts in them anyway, will be =
able to</div><div dir=3D"ltr" data-setdir=3D"false">be maintained in drivab=
le condition when they are 50 years old.<br></div><div><br></div><div class=
=3D"ydp88900954signature">David Breneman         david_breneman@yahoo.com</=
div></div>
        <div><br></div><br></div></body></html>
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_______________________________________________

Mgs@autox.team.net

Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive

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From mgs-bounces@autox.team.net  Tue Nov 15 09:59:24 2022
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From: "steve@coastaldatasystems.com" <swestfisher@coastaldatasystems.com>
To: <mgs@autox.team.net>
References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
 <be9da386-2dea-e703-a787-32d6587ece5d@gmx.net>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 11:36:41 -0500
Content-Language: en-us
Thread-Index: AQHXQPS8cBX9Om1afPZz9Ut6tZTobwFwLgv4rjgc65A=
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

Jaguar does some pretty interesting things - not a classic but my wife has an S-Type that she loves. Tracking down some of the electrical issues has been interesting to say the least.


Steve West-Fisher
N4IK

-----Original Message-----
From: Mgs <mgs-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Bert Palte
Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2022 9:15 AM
To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>; mgs@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns

I'm not too knowledgeable but my guess is - can't OBD be emulated? Think Arduino?



Op 15-11-2022 om 12:53 schreef Richard Lindsay:
> Hello MG friends,
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood
> called 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with
> MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all
> dominating the collection of British marques. Just guessing, I
> estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners,
> and another a worrisome trend.
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired
> old men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is
> obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people.
> That's just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue
> the hobby. But where are the younger people? Will there be
> replacements for us as we fade away? And what will happen to our cars?
> I already see too many cars left languishing or worse, decaying in
> garages and storage.
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars
> are being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular
> but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer
> cars can be restored?
>    I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection.
> Most of the repair parts for that car are still available, if at
> better-than-gold prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair,
> and restore serial computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW,
> a CAN bus is a serial computer network not terribly unlike the old
> strings of Christmas lights where if one lamp goes out, they all go
> out! Well, except in the XK8, if one component like the transmission
> reverse safety switch goes out, the whole network goes down.
> Everything from the engine to the seat position computers! And do you
> think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the 'burned out bulb'?
> Yea right.
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point
> that modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just
> aren't really restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation
> of potential enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear
> so. And in the extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to
> restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all
> the old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My
> wife says that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I
> also think we should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger
> people, especially kids. Car shows and tech sessions help with that.
> Not only might that exposure help to preserve our cars, maybe, but
> also there's lots to learn pulling spanners that wiggling an X-Box
> controller just can't teach! There is a kind of perverse value in
> 'busted knuckles'.
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can
> handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the
> cars too but 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
> Rick
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs@autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/palte@gmx.net
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From: i erbs <eyera3000@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 08:41:04 -0800
To: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: MGs <mgs@autox.team.net>
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============9027424308472406278==

--0000000000004685d005ed8506b2

I am a retired IT computer teacher at career and technical ed high schools
and community college.. the kids are learning how to fix modern cars with
modern tools. They also build hot rods and restore old cars. We are losing
the crafts people who can work on ols stuff,but new cars are being restored.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 4:03 AM Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hello MG friends,
>    I recently attended an 'All British Car Show' in a neighborhood called
> 'The Woodlands', here in South Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging
> from a single 1934 PA through to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the
> collection of British marques. Just guessing, I estimate about 30 or so
> cars in total were on display.
>    Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talking with the owners, and
> another a worrisome trend.
>    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired old
> men. Now, I won't make any gender related comments but it is obvious that
> our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That's just fine
> because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby. But where
> are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we fade away?
> And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars
> left languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.
>    Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby in general. What cars are
> being restored today? Sixties 'muscle cars' may always be popular but so
> many of them are resto-mods, not restorations. But what newer cars can be
> restored?
>    I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN
> buss, and therefore couldn't pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of
> the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold
> prices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial
> computer networks like the Jaguar's CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial
> computer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights
> where if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if
> one component like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the
> whole network goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position
> computers! And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the
> 'burned out bulb'? Yea right.
>    My point isn't to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it's to make the point that
> modern cars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren't really
> restorable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential
> enthusiasts (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the
> extreme, do you want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt
> electric car? Yikes.
>    So what should we do? Well, first of all I think we should save all the
> old British cars that we can. Wait! Don't we already do that?! My wife says
> that, "I never met an 'old junk car' that I didn't love!" I also think we
> should introduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids.
> Car shows and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure
> help to preserve our cars, maybe, but also there's lots to learn pulling
> spanners that wiggling an X-Box controller just can't teach! There is a
> kind of perverse value in 'busted knuckles'.
>    As we say, 'YMMV' but my grandson loves my old cars and he can handle a
> Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the cars too but
> 'My Little Ponies' are more fun, for now.
>
> Yes, YMMV,
>
> Rick
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs@autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/eyera3000@gmail.com
>

--0000000000004685d005ed8506b2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">I am a retired IT computer teacher at career and technica=
l ed high schools and community college.. the kids are learning how to fix =
modern cars with modern tools. They also build hot rods and restore old car=
s. We are losing the crafts people who can work on ols stuff,but new cars a=
re being restored.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" cla=
ss=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022, 4:03 AM Richard Lindsay &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:richardolindsay@gmail.com">richardolindsay@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto">Hello MG frie=
nds,<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0I recently attended an &#39;All British =
Car Show&#39; in a neighborhood called &#39;The Woodlands&#39;, here in Sou=
th Texas. It was a fun show with MGs ranging from a single 1934 PA through =
to many MGB Tourers, all dominating the collection of British marques. Just=
 guessing, I estimate about 30 or so cars in total were on display.</div><d=
iv dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Two issues came to mind, one obvious from talk=
ing with the owners, and another a worrisome trend.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray h=
aired old men. Now, I won&#39;t make any gender related comments but it is =
obvious that our hobby and passion lives on, mostly in old people. That&#39=
;s just fine because retired people have more free time to pursue the hobby=
. But where are the younger people? Will there be replacements for us as we=
 fade away? And what will happen to our cars? I already see too many cars l=
eft=C2=A0languishing or worse, decaying in garages and storage.=C2=A0</div>=
<div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0Secondly, I wonder about the whole car hobby=
 in general. What cars are being restored today? Sixties &#39;muscle cars&#=
39; may always be popular but so many of them are resto-mods, not restorati=
ons. But what newer cars can be restored?</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0I recently gave away a rough Jaguar XK8 because it had a failed CAN buss=
, and therefore couldn&#39;t pass safety and emissions inspection. Most of =
the repair parts for that car are still available, if at better-than-gold p=
rices, but how many hobbyists can diagnose, repair, and restore serial comp=
uter networks like the Jaguar&#39;s CAN buss?! BTW, a CAN bus is a serial c=
omputer network not terribly unlike the old strings of Christmas lights whe=
re if one lamp goes out, they all go out! Well, except in the XK8, if one c=
omponent like the transmission reverse safety switch goes out, the whole ne=
twork goes down. Everything from the engine to the seat position computers!=
 And do you think Jaguar sells the diagnostic tool to find the &#39;burned =
out bulb&#39;? Yea right.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0My point isn&=
#39;t to criticize Jaguar. Rather, it&#39;s to make the point that modern c=
ars, especially the interesting and exotic ones, just aren&#39;t really res=
torable - not by hobbyists like the next generation of potential enthusiast=
s (or us?!). So is ours a dying hobby? I fear so. And in the extreme, do yo=
u want your grandson attempting to restore a 400 volt electric car? Yikes.=
=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0 =C2=A0So what should we do? Well, firs=
t of all I think we should save all the old British cars that we can. Wait!=
 Don&#39;t we already do that?! My wife says that, &quot;I never met an &#3=
9;old junk car&#39; that I didn&#39;t love!&quot; I also think we should in=
troduce our cars and our hobby to younger people, especially kids. Car show=
s and tech sessions help with that. Not only might that exposure help to pr=
eserve our cars, maybe, but also there&#39;s lots to learn pulling spanners=
 that wiggling an X-Box controller just can&#39;t teach! There is a kind of=
 perverse value in &#39;busted knuckles&#39;.</div><div dir=3D"auto">=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0As we say, &#39;YMMV&#39; but my grandson loves my old cars and he c=
an handle a Whitworth spanner quite expertly. My granddaughter likes the ca=
rs too but &#39;My Little Ponies&#39; are more fun, for now.</div><div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Yes, YMMV,</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br=
></div><div dir=3D"auto">Rick</div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:Mgs@autox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">=
Mgs@autox.team.net</a><br>
errer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br>
<br>
Archive: <a href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs" rel=3D"noreferrer no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs</a> <a href=
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am.net/mailman/options/mgs/eyera3000@gmail.com</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004685d005ed8506b2--

--===============9027424308472406278==
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From mgs-bounces@autox.team.net  Tue Nov 15 14:51:24 2022
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References: <CAOc+-dwjMX9CmnT27qSO0VXhkjEsUb7xgtRnBwZZ4mhgvTrWag@mail.gmail.com>
 <9d396804-7060-e678-272e-d400dd89cc17@virginmedia.com>
From: Richard Lindsay <richardolindsay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2022 15:14:33 -0600
To: PaulHunt73 <paulhunt73@virginmedia.com>
Subject: Re: [Mgs] Diminishing returns
Cc: mgs@autox.team.net
Errors-To: mgs-bounces@autox.team.net

--===============2130020093128232317==

--00000000000052212005ed88d861

My observation is quite limited and therefore, biased. I certainly hope I'm
wrong.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:15 AM PaulHunt73 <paulhunt73@virginmedia.com>
wrote:

> Not that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country,
> many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any
> rate.  We have a TV series here 'Bangers and Cash' about an auction
> house in Yorkshire and in the current series it's been mentioned a
> couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as
> far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to
> be 'grey-haired old men' - or sadly their widows.
>
> On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote:
> >    Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were gray haired
> > old men.
> >
> _______________________________________________
>
> Mgs@autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.75
>
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/mgs/richardolindsay@gmail.com
>

--00000000000052212005ed88d861
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">My observation is quite limited and therefore, biased. I c=
ertainly hope I&#39;m wrong.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 15, 2022 at 8:15 AM PaulHunt73 &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:paulhunt73@virginmedia.com">paulhunt73@virginmedia.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">N=
ot that bad from what I see over here at club runs round the country, <br>
many younger than my wife and I, some a lot younger - MGB owners at any <br=
>
rate.=C2=A0 We have a TV series here &#39;Bangers and Cash&#39; about an au=
ction <br>
house in Yorkshire and in the current series it&#39;s been mentioned a <br>
couple of times that the market for pre-war cars is not what it was as <br>
far as achieved prices go, and the sellers of those ARE more likely to <br>
be &#39;grey-haired old men&#39; - or sadly their widows.<br>
<br>
On 15/11/2022 11:53, Richard Lindsay wrote:<br>
&gt; =C2=A0=C2=A0 Firstly, almost all of the MG owners and restorers were g=
ray haired <br>
&gt; old men.<br>
&gt;<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
<br>
<a>Mgs@autox.team.net</a><br>
<br>
Archive: <a rel=3D"noreferrer">http://www.team.net/pipermail/mgs</a> <a rel=
=3D"noreferrer">http://autox.team.net/archive</a><br>
<br>
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</blockquote></div>

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