From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 1 06:39:49 2008 From: "Wally Menke" To: "Tiger's List" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:33:07 +1000 Subject: [Tigers] Panhard Rod Looks like my Panhard rod bracket mounted on the chassis has cracked and almost come off, which I believe is normal for the Mk1 cars. Previous owner had welded it back on as well. Any problems running the car without this? Is there a better solution? Wally Menke B9471793 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 1 10:15:47 2008 From: Bill Waite To: Wally Menke , Tiger's List Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Panhard Rod Wally, FYI, its pretty "normal" for Mark II's, also... just that they are mounted (and break off) on the left (drivers) side as they changed the location on the Mark II's. The previous owner of my car had also tried welding the original bracket back on... but by the time I purchased the car it had already broken again and the Panhard rod and bracket were in the trunk of the car. I ran my Mark II for quite a while without the Panhard rod, and experienced no apparent issues. But, I recently pulled the rear end out to have the gear changed, and decided to tackle the Panhard issue before I put the rear end back in. I purchased one of Tom Hall's (Tiger Engineering) Panhard rod repair kits. Can be seen at this link: http://www.tigerengineering.net/ His site has a .pdf file with instructions. The kit fit very well, I just completed the installation. I have not yet put the rear end back in the car (decided to address some exhaust "cosmetics" issues first). But the bracket and "frame" reinforcing parts that Tom engineered are really heavy duty & I'm confident it is permanently repaired. No affiliation, just a happy customer. Bill Waite Grand Rapids, MI Wally Menke wrote: Looks like my Panhard rod bracket mounted on the chassis has cracked and almost come off, which I believe is normal for the Mk1 cars. Previous owner had welded it back on as well. Any problems running the car without this? Is there a better solution? Wally Menke B9471793 You are subscribed as fordlandia@sbcglobal.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 1 17:32:35 2008 From: Jeffrey Nichols To: walmenke@bigpond.net.au, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Pahhard Rod I purchased one of Tom Hall's (Tiger Engineering) Panhard rod repair kits. Can be seen at this link: http://www.tigerengineering.net/ You may want to swap the location of the panhard mounting to match the MKII. Rootes realized late that the panhard rod was mounted on the wrong side of the car and corrected their mistake on the MKII. Someone a year or two ago wrote a explanation of why the handling is better with the rod swapped. I don't recall all the ins and outs but the explanation is to make the car handle the same in left and right hand turns. I saved the email and will have to search for it is you want a copy. Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 08:26:07 2008 From: "Ronak, TP \(Timothy\)" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:25:52 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] timing Shawn, It may be that the jarring caused the timing gear to jump a tooth. I have seen this happen with the old nylon gears in collisions back in the day. With the new steel gear have not seen it happen ... could this be the result of your off road excursion??? Best Regards, Tim Ronak Services Consultant Akzo Nobel Coatings, Inc. PH: 949-305-5393 Cell: 949-289-3357 FX: 425-955-6268 Email: timothy.ronak@crna.akzonobel.com Personal Email: timronak@cox.net If you received this message in error please inform the sender and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 15:21:19 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Marc James Small" , Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:11:22 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A Sophomoric Discussion on Advance Techniques Hi Marc, I don't understand your comment on vacuum advance. Pretty much all engines give significantly better mileage if you increase the timing advance under light load conditions, which is what the vacuum advance mechanism does, or at least, that is what it's supposed to do. As soon as your foot goes into the throttle, the vacuum goes away, and the timing becomes governed by the mechanical advance. Properly set up, you get the best of both worlds: Extra advance at low power settings for good mileage, and the optimal advance for maximum power when the throttle is wide open. I'll grant that having an extra advance mechanism opens the door to having that advance cut in at an inopportune time due to some component failure, but there are also many other ways that the ignition timing can be messed up. The use of vacuum advance is not a unique risk in that regard. Cheers, Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 15:32:23 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: , Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 16:31:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Llooking at a car/restoration and parts $$$..... Part I'm resending this from last week in two parts, I think the message length was too long before and it didn't go through, maybe this will work... Steve, In regards to the costs and effort associated with fixing or restoring these items, I'm sure most of the listers would point you towards the Tigers United tech link on dash restoration: http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/ParlantiDash/rt-ParlantiDash1.asp I have read this article and have started my dash restoration using it as a guideline. In my opinion, the thing to consider most about dash restoration is are you going to go back to the burl walnut on plywood veneer or just use a solid walnut plank as often occurs. I personally love the burl walnut, and there are a few places, especially online, that will sell high quality burl walnut veneer. I purchased my veneer from Constantines just like the article refers and it works great so far. The hardest part was finding the right piece of plywood for the substrate. Different grades of plywood will have different qualities and finished thicknesses....IN SHORT, the veneer is about 140 bucks plus shipping...unfortunately you must buy the 24 x 48" size which will fit the 48" distance for the dash, but, you will have some left over. I think you can buy a dash completed from Rick at Sunbeam Specialties...see continued next email.... Steve wrote: "......Is there anyplace on the net that I can find prices either firm or approximate for parts or restoration or repair. For example I know the car I'm going to see has a lousy wood dash. How much to replace or refinish ? How much to rebuild a Ford V8 ? How much to replace a stock carb ? How much to replace clutch or transmission ? It would be very helpful to have a better feel than I now have for what various defects will cost. Thanks in advance Steve........." _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 16:07:08 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: , Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:05:47 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Llooking at a car/restoration and parts $$$..... Part Email 2 of 2....... In regards to the other items, my Tiger is (or rather will be when done) a 302 with a 5 speed conversion. I didn't have a motor when I got my car and originality isn't my concern in regards to cubic inches. I can't tell you for sure how much it cost to build a 260, but a 302 can be built here in Oklahoma, professionally by a reputable builder, with aftermarket hardware, forged pistons, steel crank, balanced and blueprinted in the mid teens for a shortblock, no heads. There are a lot of variations of how to build a sbf that will affect cost, but I am building a fairly stock spec 302 H.O. shortblock( which includes all the forged pistons and steel crank, roller cam) for that amount or less and about a grand worth of aluminum heads and your ready to pick an induction system. You can also just buy a stock type long block from ford for about 2500-3 grand in a 302. With a motor you can spend 800 bucks on a low mileage take out or 5 grand or more on a keith craft motor...it will just depend on what you want out of the car. I'm shooting for a motor built a lot like Tim Ronak's, but I'm a horsepower junkie. (refer to this month's Tiger Tales newsletter for details) Again on the transmission, a world class t-5 rebuilt will run you about 800 bucks, and you will need a tail shaft conversion kit from Tom Hall or stumble through something on your own. I have little to no experience with rebuilding the factory transmission, I've never had one. Just my opinion, hopefully it might help for a perpective. Cullen 1452 Steve wrote: "......Is there anyplace on the net that I can find prices either firm or approximate for parts or restoration or repair. For example I know the car I'm going to see has a lousy wood dash. How much to replace or refinish ? How much to rebuild a Ford V8 ? How much to replace a stock carb ? How much to replace clutch or transmission ? It would be very helpful to have a better feel than I now have for what various defects will cost. Thanks in advance Steve........." _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 17:46:14 2008 From: AAAGLASSS@aol.com To: cmccann@lwpb.com, tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:46:16 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Llooking at a car/restoration and parts $$$..... Part Can the stock drive shaft and the drive shaft for the 5 speed be spliced to accommodate this or is it not the correct thing to do?? In a message dated 6/2/2008 3:08:02 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, cmccann@lwpb.com writes: Email 2 of 2....... In regards to the other items, my Tiger is (or rather will be when done) a 302 with a 5 speed conversion. I didn't have a motor when I got my car and originality isn't my concern in regards to cubic inches. I can't tell you for sure how much it cost to build a 260, but a 302 can be built here in Oklahoma, professionally by a reputable builder, with aftermarket hardware, forged pistons, steel crank, balanced and blueprinted in the mid teens for a shortblock, no heads. There are a lot of variations of how to build a sbf that will affect cost, but I am building a fairly stock spec 302 H.O. shortblock( which includes all the forged pistons and steel crank, roller cam) for that amount or less and about a grand worth of aluminum heads and your ready to pick an induction system. You can also just buy a stock type long block from ford for about 2500-3 grand in a 302. With a motor you can spend 800 bucks on a low mileage take out or 5 grand or more on a keith craft motor...it will just depend on what you want out of the car. I'm shooting for a motor built a lot like Tim Ronak's, but I'm a horsepower junkie. (refer to this month's Tiger Tales newsletter for details) Again on the transmission, a world class t-5 rebuilt will run you about 800 bucks, and you will need a tail shaft conversion kit from Tom Hall or stumble through something on your own. I have little to no experience with rebuilding the factory transmission, I've never had one. Just my opinion, hopefully it might help for a perpective. Cullen 1452 Steve wrote: "......Is there anyplace on the net that I can find prices either firm or approximate for parts or restoration or repair. For example I know the car I'm going to see has a lousy wood dash. How much to replace or refinish ? How much to rebuild a Ford V8 ? How much to replace a stock carb ? How much to replace clutch or transmission ? It would be very helpful to have a better feel than I now have for what various defects will cost. Thanks in advance Steve........." You are subscribed as aaaglasss@aol.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive B382002560 **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 17:52:04 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:52:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Thanks, Curtis. The distributor is actually a stock Ford, I believe, with a Mallory Unilite conversion module. Do you know it the Ford distributor is two-piece as well? Shaun -----Original Message----- From: 65tiger@comcast.net [mailto:65tiger@comcast.net] Sent: June 1, 2008 11:43 PM To: Shaun Laughy; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Shaun, One thing to look at is the Mallory Unilite distributor. It is not a billet distributor shaft. It is actually two pieces with a friction lock in the middle. It CAN and will SHIFT. I was having this problem with my timing. With the friction lock as tight as it would go, I could turn the rotor and change the timing. The solution is to bring the two parts back into alignment, tighten parts, re-install the distributor, and re-time the engine. I did this twice and tossed the Unilite for a MSD billet distributor. Attached is a picture of the Unilite and MSD for reference. The balancer may not be the problem. Curtis _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 17:54:40 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 19:54:57 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] timing Hi, Tim. It definitely could be this. I've pretty well decided that I will replace the timing set regardless, and will also likely switch to a vacuum advance distributor. I am thinking of the Pertronix unit. Does anyone have an opinion on these or other choices? Thanks, Shaun -----Original Message----- From: Ronak, TP (Timothy) [mailto:Timothy.Ronak@crna.akzonobel.com] Sent: June 2, 2008 10:26 AM To: tigerv8@rogers.com Cc: Tiger News Group List Subject: timing Shawn, It may be that the jarring caused the timing gear to jump a tooth. I have seen this happen with the old nylon gears in collisions back in the day. With the new steel gear have not seen it happen . could this be the result of your off road excursion??? Best Regards, Tim Ronak Services Consultant Akzo Nobel Coatings, Inc. PH: 949-305-5393 Cell: 949-289-3357 FX: 425-955-6268 Email: timothy.ronak@crna.akzonobel.com Personal Email: timronak@cox.net If you received this message in error please inform the sender and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 2 18:29:41 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 20:29:58 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Sorry to respond to my own post, but I just remembered that I received a binder of information when I got the car. I have just looked through it, and have found some information that indicates that I am probably wrong on the distributor. Buried in the back of the binder, is an old, handwritten description of the mechanicals that reads as follows: Rebuilt 5-bolt 289 with HiPo damper, ARP rod bolts, hydraulic HiPo cam, gasket-matched intake & exhaust ports, stainless steel 289 valves, screw-in studs, double timing chain (HiPo), high-volume oil-pump, aluminized headers, windage tray. - dual-point distributor (Mallory) - Holley 600 carburetor - rebuilt clutch & pressure plate - wide-ratio transmission (rebuilt) - radiator (recored) - rebuilt & powder coated suspension So, although I can't see any markings, I would assume that the distributor is still the Mallory unit. I know that the previous owner had the electronic module installed while he owned it, so it would make sense that he decided upon the Mallory Unilite module to go with the Mallory distributor. Looking further at the description, it would seem that the engine already has a double-roller timing set, and I would assume that this also means that, by necessity, it doesn't have the nylon timing gears. Considering the small amount of mileage that the car has had for the past several years, it seems unlikely that the timing set would be the problem. I think I am going to start by replacing the distributor with a new vacuum advance unit. I wish I had found this information sooner! Thanks again to everyone for all the help. Shaun -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+tigerv8=rogers.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+tigerv8=rogers.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shaun Laughy Sent: June 2, 2008 7:52 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Thanks, Curtis. The distributor is actually a stock Ford, I believe, with a Mallory Unilite conversion module. Do you know it the Ford distributor is two-piece as well? Shaun _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 07:38:50 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:38:56 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Llooking at a car/restoration and parts $$$..... Part Any competent driveshaft shop can change the length of a driveshaft or build you one from scratch. However, since the spline size and output shaft diameters of the Ford T-5 and the toploader are the same, you can use the original driveshaft. I think the T5 tailhousing and shaft are a little shorter than the toploader, so the spline engagement isn't quite as good with the T5 as it is with the toploader if you use the original driveshaft. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of AAAGLASSS@aol.com Sent: June 2, 2008 5:46 PM To: cmccann@lwpb.com; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Llooking at a car/restoration and parts $$$..... Part 2 of 2 Can the stock drive shaft and the drive shaft for the 5 speed be spliced to accommodate this or is it not the correct thing to do?? _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 07:47:29 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:47:42 EDT Subject: [Tigers] : T-5 Driveshaft In a message dated 6/2/2008 7:47:01 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, AAAGLASSS@aol.com writes: Can the stock drive shaft and the drive shaft for the 5 speed be spliced to accommodate this or is it not the correct thing to do?? Cullen, You can use your Tiger driveshaft without modification. John Logan **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 08:02:27 2008 From: "Paul R. Breuhan" To: Tigers Den Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:02:20 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... FYI... Last night while watching a movie, several times a Subway commercial came up which had a Get Smart theme. Max's Tiger got lots of air time in it. Unfortunately the commercial isn't up on their website (or You Tube). If you go to the Subway website you will see that Subway is giving away a 1965 Tiger as the Grand Prize...but don't enter because I am planning on winning the car! LOL Paul _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyou back _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 09:58:43 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:57:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] : T-5 Driveshaft Thanks Theo and John for the clarification on the driveshaft, I didn't know the splines were the same, excellent! Cullen blah blah 1452 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 10:16:41 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: "Tigers Den" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:15:21 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... Didn't we determine that the get smart car is a tiger clone for the movie, made from an alpine? Is this the car they are giving away and calling it a Tiger? Not that I would turn down a clean alpine with a machine gun under the hood, but..... Remember when gone in 60 seconds came out at the theater and the value of the 67-68 mustangs, especially fastbacks went through the roof? I wonder if Tiger values will go up some measurable amount just because of this movie exposure.... Hmmmmmm. C FYI... Last night while watching a movie, several times a Subway commercial came up which had a Get Smart theme. Max's Tiger got lots of air time in it. Unfortunately the commercial isn't up on their website (or You Tube). If you go to the Subway website you will see that Subway is giving away a 1965 Tiger as the Grand Prize...but don't enter because I am planning on winning the car! LOL Paul _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 11:33:26 2008 From: "Robert J. Wanty" To: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:33:34 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Control arm bushings I received new bushings from VB that are rubber with a metal sleeve for the rod to go through. I pushed out the old bushings and left behind in the control arms were metal sleeves that surrounded the original bushings. I called VB and asked if I should reuse the outer sleeves and the said they would check with the Tech people and get back to me in a couple of days. I did not hear from them for a week and after measuring the sleeve and bushing found that the bushing diameter is larger than the diameter of the sleeve and since it looked like the original bushing was bonded to the sleeve and the sleeve had to be heated to be removed I assumed that the new bushing was an improvement over the old and the sleeve was not needed. Now with the installation complete VB got back to me and said the sleeve is needed to keep the rubber from tearing. What have others done before I take it apart again? Bob B382001318 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 11:39:44 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Robert J. Wanty" , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:40:01 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control arm bushings I bought the urethane bushings from Rick at Sunbeam Specialties. You get two choices of durometer, they come with proper inside and outside sleeves, and they fit. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Robert J. Wanty Sent: June 3, 2008 11:34 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Control arm bushings I received new bushings from VB that are rubber with a metal sleeve for the rod to go through. I pushed out the old bushings and left behind in the control arms were metal sleeves that surrounded the original bushings. I called VB and asked if I should reuse the outer sleeves and the said they would check with the Tech people and get back to me in a couple of days. I did not hear from them for a week and after measuring the sleeve and bushing found that the bushing diameter is larger than the diameter of the sleeve and since it looked like the original bushing was bonded to the sleeve and the sleeve had to be heated to be removed I assumed that the new bushing was an improvement over the old and the sleeve was not needed. Now with the installation complete VB got back to me and said the sleeve is needed to keep the rubber from tearing. What have others done before I take it apart again? Bob B382001318 You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 11:52:07 2008 From: "Paul R. Breuhan" To: Cullen McCann , Tigers Den Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:52:24 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... Subway is saying the value is $58,500...that would be quite an Alger. The nice thing is that they are throwing in cash also...could be used towards the taxes. Paul> Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 11:15:21 -0500> From: cmccann@lwpb.com> To: tigers@autox.team.net> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant...> > Didn't we determine that the get smart car is a tiger clone for the> movie, made from an alpine? Is this the car they are giving away and> calling it a Tiger? Not that I would turn down a clean alpine with a> machine gun under the hood, but.....> > Remember when gone in 60 seconds came out at the theater and the value> of the 67-68 mustangs, especially fastbacks went through the roof? I> wonder if Tiger values will go up some measurable amount just because of> this movie exposure....> > Hmmmmmm.> > C> > > > > > > FYI...> Last night while watching a movie, several times a Subway commercial> came up> which had a Get Smart theme. Max's Tiger got lots of air time in it.> Unfortunately the commercial isn't up on their website (or You Tube).> _________________________________________________________________ Its easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:07:12 2008 From: DJoh797014@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:07:16 EDT Subject: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway Subway is giving away 1965 Sunbeam Tiger (Looks like a 1966 in the pics) as part of the GET Smart..Eat Fresh Promo. So DONT go to _www.subwayfreshbuzz.com_ (http://www.subwayfreshbuzz.com) and enter the code SUNBEAMTIGER. The fewer pople in the giveaway, the better my chance. Dave Johnson **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:11:14 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:11:19 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway It's not open to Canadians... You're already in luck. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of DJoh797014@aol.com Sent: June 3, 2008 4:07 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway Subway is giving away 1965 Sunbeam Tiger (Looks like a 1966 in the pics) as part of the GET Smart..Eat Fresh Promo. So DONT go to _www.subwayfreshbuzz.com_ (http://www.subwayfreshbuzz.com) and enter the code SUNBEAMTIGER. The fewer pople in the giveaway, the better my chance. Dave Johnson **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:31:14 2008 From: PhastPhill@aol.com To: Theo.Smit@dynastream.com, DJoh797014@aol.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:31:26 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway Why those rotten SOB's.....I'll use me mums address in Florida..!!! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:37:49 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: "'Jerry'" , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:38:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Thanks for the information, Jerry. I actually have an article that describes how to do this. The only issue I have with the Duraspark is in the area of looks, as the wide-cap is very unique in appearance and much different from stock. Still, this could be a great and practical option, so I will keep it in mind. Thanks, Shaun -----Original Message----- From: Jerry [mailto:JCMC2006@suddenlink.net] Sent: June 3, 2008 2:55 PM To: 'Shaun Laughy'; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: RE: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Shaun, In order to save you money may I suggest using a Ford Duraspark II distributor? It has the same type of pickup as the MSD dist. And were made from the early 70's to somewhere in the 80's and has a vacuum can. The only difference is you have to have an amplifier with it as they use the Hall Effect principle. Now all the good things that Ford does the Duraspark II amps they had weren't very good so another amp that is far better and easy to obtain is, do I dare say, from the Dodge, Chrysler group! (I guess there is a distant connection). Their amp is apparently very good, it is used by Performance Distributors (Memphis,TN)in their setups and good for 10,000 RPMS (That should take care of any and all Tigers). The Standard Ignition part # is LX-101, Delco's # is C1908. These are the better ones, but O'Reilly's,AutoZone,PepBoys have them with a lifetime warranty for less, some around $20.00. The May 1988 issue of Tiger Tails has an article by Ted McKinley showing the wiring diagram how to wire it up, very simple. If you are interested I will send you a copy of the article. This setup will run just as well as a high priced MSD's or Mallory's for a lot less money IF you get the curve set properly, The fact is the curve should be exactly the same. The fact is your Mallory dist. should be just fine. I just cruved a Mallory dist. The other day on a Mustang, different than the Ford, but the same principles apply. Perhaps a call to Mallory to see if there is a way to test the module to make sure it is operating perfectly would help. On another note do you think you had enough bouncing around that may have caused any debris in the carb. to get into the mains or other passageways? Guess I've rambled enough! Jerry Christopherson 9473187 (I've had this setup for 8 years now with no problems) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:45:35 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 17:44:14 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway I checked the clue category to find out what the secret code was, it told me to buy a 32 oz fountain drink to find out....did you do this dave? Did the fountain drink say sunbeamtiger on it?!!! Subject: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway Subway is giving away 1965 Sunbeam Tiger (Looks like a 1966 in the pics) as part of the GET Smart..Eat Fresh Promo. So DONT go to _www.subwayfreshbuzz.com_ (http://www.subwayfreshbuzz.com) and enter the code SUNBEAMTIGER. The fewer pople in the giveaway, the better my chance. Dave Johnson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:52:31 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Shaun Laughy" , "Jerry" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:52:48 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two If you use good plug wires and don't go silly on the plug gaps, then you can use the standard cap and rotor even if you're running Duraspark guts in your distributor. I don't know offhand if the old-school cap will fit on the Duraspark era distributors without modifying something somewhere. I built a hybrid distributor a few years ago - started with a points-type distributor and removed the advance plate and the upper distributor shaft (the part with the points cam etc). Then I put in a duraspark distributor's upper shaft and advance plate. I also welded and ground the advance plate to limit the mechanical advance to about 26 degrees. Then I wired the reluctor coil directly to an MSD6AL. If you wanted to you could sneak the two wires inside a piece of heatshrink and it would look almost exactly like a points distributor from the outside. Come to think of it, I used the wide style cap on this distributor so I guess the old style cap should fit on the Duraspark era distributors. The early transistorized ignitions have heat tolerance issues. If you're going to use one of these (Duraspark, the GM HEI module, or what have you) then it might be a good idea to mount it in the wheel well or in the front valence area. That way it's out of sight, too... But don't bundle the ignition coil wires with the distributor sensor wires. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shaun Laughy Sent: June 3, 2008 4:38 PM To: 'Jerry'; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Thanks for the information, Jerry. I actually have an article that describes how to do this. The only issue I have with the Duraspark is in the area of looks, as the wide-cap is very unique in appearance and much different from stock. Still, this could be a great and practical option, so I will keep it in mind. Thanks, Shaun _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 16:53:09 2008 From: "Bob Dixon" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:53:28 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Tigers] Wiring effect car value? I'm just curious what the common opinion might be on if replacing my Tiger's wiring with a Painless harness would decrease it's value? I'm replacing the generator with an alternator also. -Bob _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 17:26:02 2008 From: "michael king" To: Ron Soave Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:26:18 +1000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant.. I was looking at the tiger in the pics on the subway site.. seems to be the photos from the fantasy junction? website.. was a tiger on hemmings for 65K.. looks liek that car.. wonder if thats the one they are giving away? -- Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 17:29:14 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: "'Jerry'" , Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:29:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Thanks, Jerry -- I'll keep it that option in mind. Shaun -----Original Message----- From: Jerry [mailto:JCMC2006@suddenlink.net] Sent: June 3, 2008 7:26 PM To: 'Shaun Laughy'; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: RE: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Two Shaun, As others have said already you can use the smaller caps with the Dura dist. without any mods, you just use the smaller rotor. I have a friend with a Mustang that we put a "small cap" on his MSD dist. to give a stock look. They put out a very hot spark without any crossfiring. You also have the option of having female or male connectors on the top of the cap for the different types of plug wires. Jerry _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 17:48:00 2008 From: "Bob Hokanson" To: "Tigers" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:48:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Wiring effect car value? It will be worth more than the smoldering heap of rubble left after the Lucas no-fuse fire. Bob H ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Dixon" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:53 PM Subject: [Tigers] Wiring effect car value? > I'm just curious what the common opinion might be on if replacing my > Tiger's wiring with a Painless harness would decrease it's value? I'm > replacing the generator with an alternator also. > > -Bob _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 19:22:59 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Bob Dixon Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:22:55 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Wiring effect car value? Bob, There are plenty of Tigers sold with lots of modifications. But, you won't get the value of the unmodified vehicle in similar condition. Of course, there is always the Mecum "Tribute" car sales, but they don't get top dollar. If you are not concerned with market values, then do what pleases you. If you are, save everything you remove, in suitable condition for re-installing. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Bob Dixon wrote: > I'm just curious what the common opinion might be on if replacing my > Tiger's wiring with a Painless harness would decrease it's value? I'm > replacing the generator with an alternator also. > > -Bob _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 3 21:47:52 2008 From: "Steve Ralsten" To: Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 20:47:52 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] : Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... FYI... Last night while watching a movie, several times a Subway commercial came up which had a Get Smart theme. Max's Tiger got lots of air time in it. Unfortunately the commercial isn't up on their website (or You Tube). If you go to the Subway website you will see that Subway is giving away a 1965 Tiger as the Grand Prize...but don't enter because I am planning on winning the car! LOL Paul I'm probably not doing this reply properly, but if I am I expect you all to stay out of Subway and leave the car to the new guy (ME) that does not yet have a car. ;^) Steve R _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 05:29:05 2008 From: "Robert J. Wanty" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:17:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control arm bushings Thanks, I got numerous responses with great information; I should have consulted the list prior to undertaking the bushing replacement. The short version of the replies indicate that I return the VB bushings (not possible because they have been installed) and get the SS bushings, after looking I agree the SS bushings are ones to use. So back to the barn and remove the VB bushings and install the SS bushings. I am getting pretty good at tearing apart the front end but I think that I will replace the nuts and bolts with wing nuts so that next time it will go even faster (just kidding so don't mass email me about the wing nuts). Bob B382001318 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 09:11:11 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:09:39 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control arm bushings Bob, Regardless of the number of installs (your experience), make sure you get the fulcrum pin installed correctly. I knew about it, thought about it, reminded myself about it and thought I did it. But, low and behold when I was all done I got one on backwards. Try as I might I couldn't get the bushing out without destroying it. Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1480 - Release Date: 6/3/2008 7:00 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 09:33:49 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 08:30:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control arm bushings By the way, Tom Hall did a great article on installing lubrication fittings for the SS bushings. http://tigerengineering.net/TECHTIPS/Urethane%20Bushing%20Pt%201.pdf You might want to consider it. I did. Not having access to make the jigs he did, I used my drill press and a block of hard wood to make my own jig. Then, using a drill and good visual "gestimation" I clamped it in a vise and drilled my holes. While not perfect, it did come out OK. Tom Witt Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1482 - Release Date: 6/4/2008 7:10 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 15:36:43 2008 From: "Jeffrey Nichols" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:28:02 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Best place for the Panhard Rod I found the email describing why Rootes moved the Panhard rod from the Mk1 location to the MkII location. Jeff > > To those interested in Panhard locations, here is my analysis to answer some > > of the recent questions. > > The stock Mark I rod runs from below the wheel centerline of the axle on the > > left side to high on the body on the right side. The Mark II runs the > opposite direction. The instant roll center of the rear suspension is > defined > as the point at which the Rod intersects the centerline of the car. > > When accelerating out of a RIGHT turn, the body rolls to the left, raising > the right pivot. When this happens the instant roll center of the rear rises > > increasing the roll stiffness of the rear suspension. Two things now happen. > > The engine torque into the rear axle as well as the increased rear roll > stiffness cause vertical loads to be shifted from the right rear and the > left > front tires to the left rear tire. As the left front and right rear tires > lose vertical loads they lose cornering power. These cornering forces are > additive and transferred to the left rear tire. As the force exceeds the > tire > capability there will be an extreme oversteer in right turns and lifting and > > spinning of the right tire. > > When accelerating out of a LEFT turn, the body rolls to the right, lowering > the right pivot. When this happens the instant roll center of the rear > suspension lowers, decreasing the roll stiffness. Again two things happen. > The engine torque into the rear axle as well as the decreased rear roll > stiffness causes cornering force capability to be shifted to the right front > > tire. As the force exceeds the right tire capability the car will have > understeer. Having a car that handles different when turning left or right > is > not fun. > > With the Tiger Mark II, which has the Panhard Rod running from the right > side > of the axle to the left side of the body, the opposite dynamics happen and > these loads subtract from each other. The left and right turn differences > are > improved and it is easier to balance front and rear roll stiffness. > > So, to improve the Tiger rear geometry in order of complexity, you can > change > the Panhard Rod to the Mark II design, make the Panhard Rod horizontal by > lowering the frame attachment pivot or install a Watt's linkage. Good luck > in > finding room and feel free to add more ideas. > > John Logan _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 15:38:45 2008 From: "Jeffrey Nichols" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:37:54 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Another Suspension Bushing Source Here is another bushing source http://www.rootesparts.com/id103.htm. They sell exact duplicates of the original Metalastic bushing. I bought a set a couple of weeks ago but have not installed them. The cost with shipping was $160. We get nailed on the exchange rate because the company is in Holland. The one advantage over Ricks bushings, is you do not have to drill holes to lubricate the bushings. Check the web site for parts no one else makes, like convertible top latches etc. Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 15:51:35 2008 From: "Steinman, Bill" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:41:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] : Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... Believe it or not, my ex-wife does some legal work for Subway sweepstakes. I asked if she could tell me more about the car, and she refused, citing the attorney-client privilege. Bill S. 2005 Lotus Elise 1968 Triumph TR-250 1968 MGC Tourer 1966 Austin Healey 3000 Mk III 1965 Sunbeam Tiger 1959 Austin Healey 3000 Tedious but unavoidable disclaimer follows... NOTICE: This communication and its attachments have been sent to you from Powell Goldstein LLP and may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. If you are not the intended recipient appearing in the address lines of this communication, you should not rely upon it. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy you received. IRS CIRCULAR 230 Disclosure: Under U.S. Treasury regulations, we are required to inform you that any tax advice contained in this e-mail or any attachment hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 15:53:57 2008 From: "Thomas Prager" To: "tigers_United_forum" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:51:53 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Another Suspension Bushing Source I have dealt with this company, having purchased their top latches. Out of the box the chrome plating was peeling from both latches. I called the owner via Skype and he speaks perfect English. He replaced the latches without complaining. I would suggest that you ask the owner to personally inspect any parts you are buying prior to mailing. tom Here is another bushing source http://www.rootesparts.com/id103.htm. Check the web site for parts no one else makes, like convertible top latches etc. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 15:55:28 2008 From: "Teepen, Jere" To: "Steinman, Bill" , "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:55:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] : Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... Sorry to be picky Bill, but shouldn't you have started your message with "Would you believe..." -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steinman, Bill Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 2:41 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] : Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... Believe it or not, my ex-wife does some legal work for Subway sweepstakes. I asked if she could tell me more about the car, and she refused, citing the attorney-client privilege. Bill S. 2005 Lotus Elise 1968 Triumph TR-250 1968 MGC Tourer 1966 Austin Healey 3000 Mk III 1965 Sunbeam Tiger 1959 Austin Healey 3000 Tedious but unavoidable disclaimer follows... NOTICE: This communication and its attachments have been sent to you from Powell Goldstein LLP and may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. If you are not the intended recipient appearing in the address lines of this communication, you should not rely upon it. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy you received. IRS CIRCULAR 230 Disclosure: Under U.S. Treasury regulations, we are required to inform you that any tax advice contained in this e-mail or any attachment hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 17:56:15 2008 From: "michael king" To: "Thomas Prager" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:56:05 +1000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Another Suspension Bushing Source On 05/06/2008, Thomas Prager wrote: > > I have dealt with this company, having purchased their top latches. Out of > the > box the chrome plating was peeling from both latches. I called the owner > via > Skype and he speaks perfect English. He replaced the latches without > complaining. I would suggest that you ask the owner to personally inspect > any > parts you are buying prior to mailing. I ordered a set of boot hinges from them with the same issue of peeling chrome. Anoud replaced them after we sent them back.. so yes good service,.. but a little annoying when you are returning them from australia! -- > Regards > > Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 18:25:37 2008 From: Tom Hall To: "Jeffrey Nichols" Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:27:36 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Another Suspension Bushing Source At 02:37 PM 6/4/2008, you wrote: >Here is another bushing source http://www.rootesparts.com/id103.htm. They >sell exact duplicates of the original Metalastic bushing. I bought a set a >couple of weeks ago but have not installed them. The cost with shipping was >$160. We get nailed on the exchange rate because the company is in Holland. >The one advantage over Ricks bushings, is you do not have to drill holes to >lubricate the bushings. Check the web site for parts no one else makes, like >convertible top latches etc. I found his bushing to have similar size problems with the diameters as Rick's bushings used to have. This is an area were you need to pay attention to details no matter who makes the bushings. Tom Hall ModTiger Engineering LLC www.tigerengineering.net _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 4 20:06:36 2008 From: "Pointers" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 21:05:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 2, Issue 224 Now that's frustrating; it had me interested. The $58.5K ARV sure exceeds my recent appraisal. I'm sure they're bound to US for good reason, but with 2339 locations in Canada, and that I drop $$ there frequently, maybe some of us Canucks should put pen to paper in disapproval. Gary ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:11:19 -0600 From: "Smit, Theo" Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger giveaway To: , Message-ID: <60FEBF2884916145962401D18221D157C5F02C@dsimail.ad.garmin.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" It's not open to Canadians... You're already in luck. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 09:44:35 2008 From: "Russ Eshelman" To: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:46:25 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Tiger/Alpine GT Door Part Hello Listers, I'm asking for a frind that is restoring a Mk1a Tiger and is need of a left door waist roll metal strip. I told him I'd ask the list ......maybe someone has a spare they would like to sell ? Many Thanks, Russ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 12:34:35 2008 From: "Jeffrey Nichols" To: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:34:24 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! "Believe it or not, my ex-wife does some legal work for Subway sweepstakes. I asked if she could tell me more about the car, and she refused, citing the attorney-client privilege." Perhaps your wife could tell you the car info under "the cone of silence". No one else will hear you. Although, I remember in the show they had to shout at one another to be heard. Or maybe you wife could "shoe phone" the info to you. Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 12:42:04 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: jxnichols@sbcglobal.net, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:42:07 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! I'd be curious to know the Vin #. I could see where Subway contracts with someone for a $50,000 car and gets and Alger without knowing it. To the general public they are one and the same. Maybe Subway's legal people should be aware of the potential problem....thus she should be spilling her guts to you in the interest of her client. And I've learned women can be softened up with flowers:-) M **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 13:03:47 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: , , Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:58:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! Mark, I was thinking the exact same thing....rarely do I run into someone who knows the difference between the two. Most people my age don't even know what it is at least from what ive experienced... so it would be conceivably very possible for even a major organization to get it wrong...the car was probably obtained by a bunch of paperwork from some teenage secretary or administrative person for subway who wouldn't know the difference if their life depended on it. A vin or some other data would be helpful. It might be there, I haven't looked very hard. Again, even if it's a Pine with a V8....I would take it for free and do something with it....but, it would be nice to know for sure the history of the car. C I'd be curious to know the Vin #. I could see where Subway contracts with someone for a $50,000 car and gets and Alger without knowing it. To the general public they are one and the same. Maybe Subway's legal people should be aware of the potential problem....thus she should be spilling her guts to you in the interest of her client. And I've learned women can be softened up with flowers:-) M _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 13:20:08 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: CoolVT@aol.com Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 12:20:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! Mark, According to those who should know: * Flowers are Dandy, but Liquor is Quicker.* ;-) Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com CoolVT@aol.com wrote: > I'd be curious to know the Vin #. I could see where Subway contracts with > someone for a $50,000 car and gets and Alger without knowing it. To the > general public they are one and the same. > > Maybe Subway's legal people should be aware of the potential problem....thus > she should be spilling her guts to you in the interest of her client. And > I've learned women can be softened up with flowers:-) > M _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 15:28:14 2008 From: Tony Somebody To: CoolVT@aol.com, Steve Laifman Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! IF, I was lucky enough and I am pretty dam lucky, I rather Subway and the public continue to think/believe it to be a Sunbeam Tiger. If they learn now, Im sure they could legally have time to make changes in the rules and I would bet they can. Then if the car is an Alger, thats what you would own BUT if the contest runs its course and then they would be obligated to award a REAL Tiger- of course thats in my opinion. I wouldnt surprise me at all that the car is an Alger and I doubt the person in charge of procurement has any idea themselves. Then again, the add says a car like Max's and the scenes certainly appear Alger . I rather wait to see. It would be great if a member won- just for the appreciation value and then the fight that the car isn't worth the approximately 55k, when you have to pay taxes. If it is determined to be of such value, then look for insurance rates to esclate again. It wasnt to many years ago I was paying what I considered cheap, for year round, full coverage, daily driver coverage- not so these days. TTT _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 15:29:40 2008 From: Ramon Spontelli To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:29:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: Re: [Tigers] : Get Smart Tiger & Subway Restaurant... <> And ended it with "The old attorney-client-privilege trick!" AND loving it! Ramon _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 15:46:11 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:44:30 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? Listers, I don't have a copy of the BON, does anyone know how many of the 7K +/- Tigers produced are accounted for today? Obviously many were lost to racing and other collisions, some rusted away or even...gulp...crushed...It might be on Norman's or Steve's site, just haven't noticed. Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 15:48:40 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Cullen McCann" , Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:48:46 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? 8000 ;) I think the right number is probably in the 2500-3000 range. The TAC list is over 700, I believe. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 16:34:21 2008 From: J D Johnson To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:34:34 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? It is on Norman's site. Check out the gas pump: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rootes1/reg1.htm JD Cullen McCann wrote: >I don't have a copy of the BON, does anyone know how many of the 7K +/- >Tigers produced are accounted for today?... Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1485 - Release Date: 6/5/2008 10:07 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 16:36:28 2008 From: "Cullen McCann" To: "J D Johnson" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:34:50 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? 3,786....Thanks! Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? It is on Norman's site. Check out the gas pump: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rootes1/reg1.htm JD Cullen McCann wrote: >I don't have a copy of the BON, does anyone know how many of the 7K +/- >Tigers produced are accounted for today?... _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 18:35:20 2008 From: "steve wick" To: Triumph car discussion Sports Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:35:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? +1. I'm just to far away from anyone to have had it tac'd yet. Norm seemed pretty sure when I gave him pics and info though. Steve (in N.Id.) ----- Original Message ----- From: Cullen McCann To: J D Johnson Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? 3,786....Thanks! Subject: Re: [Tigers] known number of Tigers? It is on Norman's site. Check out the gas pump: http://www.home.earthlink.net/~rootes1/reg1.htm JD Cullen McCann wrote: >I don't have a copy of the BON, does anyone know how many of the 7K +/- >Tigers produced are accounted for today?... _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as srwick@hotmail.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 5 20:04:20 2008 From: "Joe Brown" To: Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:04:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! --===============1959169714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just remember, this $50,000 Tiger will cost somebody $10,000-$15,000 in income taxes (depending on your bracket). Thanks, Joe Brown B382000217 -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jbbrown3=tx.rr.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jbbrown3=tx.rr.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of CoolVT@aol.com Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:42 PM To: jxnichols@sbcglobal.net; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subway Tiger, I missed it by that much! I'd be curious to know the Vin #. I could see where Subway contracts with someone for a $50,000 car and gets and Alger without knowing it. To the general public they are one and the same. Maybe Subway's legal people should be aware of the potential problem....thus she should be spilling her guts to you in the interest of her client. And I've learned women can be softened up with flowers:-) M **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) You are subscribed as jbbrown3@tx.rr.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1386 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 5:24 PM Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.2/1386 - Release Date: 4/18/2008 5:24 PM --===============1959169714== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive --===============1959169714==-- From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 04:29:46 2008 From: "rande" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 06:29:52 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] LANCO British Invade Gettysburg cancelled It was brought to our attention today that the LANCO British Invade Gettysburg event on Sunday, July 6 has been cancelled. We have it on the centerfold calendar in the June issue. We have updated the events on our website to show it as cancelled and hope you will let your members know. The good folks at LANCO do not want people to show up and be disappointed to learn that the show was cancelled! Faith Lamprey The British Marque Car Club News Forwarded by Rande Bellman _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 05:17:23 2008 From: dhhall@bellsouth.net To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 11:17:15 +0000 Subject: [Tigers] engine ancillaries My engine is at the shop, and I'd like some advice about ancillaries. My goal is a largely stock, or period available, with adequate power for touring, and good driveability. I have a Mk 1A, whose original 260 had too many freeze cracks to salvage. I was able to buy an original Tiger 289, and it has needed to be bored .030 over. I am retaining the original cast iron heads, new mild cam for a bit more torque, new taller valve springs, hardened valve seats. I'm inclined to use the Edelbrock carb, but wondered 500 or 600 cfm? I presume a manual choke. Thin carb spacer? Using the Mk 11 timing cover, must I use the cast iron water pump, or can I use the aluminum. I don't think I want a high volume one. For the flywheel, a lightened steel one, or aluminum? And probably a Centerforce clutch, per the recent discussions. Thanks for all the help, this list is great. David _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 07:46:48 2008 From: "Alvin Johnson" To: , Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:47:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Hi Dave, Jeez---At least replace those tired old heads. There are some aftermarket iron ones around, or you can paint the aluminum ones. Aluminum heads give power & actually can run w/out knocking on 87 octane. They'll run cooler, too---a bonus for a Tiger. I run a "baby crower" cam in my Mustang to retain the idle quality & give great torque. But to improve the HPower you need attend to the big 3---Heads, Cam, and Intake (or a power adder). Why in the world would you want to spend all that $$$ and still have a car that can't even keep up with a Toyota? Al J _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 08:06:57 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:07:02 -0600 Subject: [Tigers] Caught in the act... I was trying to dig up some smallblock Ford valve size specs for a reply to David Hall when I came across this newsclip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf_6wkNoo-E Interesting stuff... The story is obviously not accurate in all its details but it looks like a lot of people aren't going to get what they were expecting. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 08:34:07 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 08:34:11 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Are the original iron heads you're planning to keep, the 260 ones? You should be careful (CC the heads) to not end up with an unworkable high compression ratio. Either 260 or 289 heads will have 1.67/1.45" intake and exhaust valves, while later 302 and 5.0 heads have 1.78" intake valves. 351W heads use 1.84/1.54" valves, and 1.94" intake valves are available in the aftermarket. If you're rebuilding heads and installing hardened valve seats, then there is little extra cost involved in changing the valve size, provided that the casting has enough beef in the right places and you're willing to do the required porting afterwards, at least to clean up the valve bowls. The OEM Ford heads are all going to be pretty close to identical on external inspection, so you should figure out if it's worth refurbishing 40 year old heads compared to a set that could be half the age and have better drivability. For street drivability a smaller carb will give better results because the higher air velocity gives a stronger vacuum signal. If the Tiger 289 you got is an actual 6 bolt block then you'll need to source an appropriate bellhousing. If you got a 5-bolt 289 then it's not an "original Tiger" piece but it will be far easier to retrofit that to the existing bellhousing and transmission. Hope this helps, Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of dhhall@bellsouth.net Sent: June 6, 2008 5:17 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] engine ancillaries My engine is at the shop, and I'd like some advice about ancillaries. My goal is a largely stock, or period available, with adequate power for touring, and good driveability. I have a Mk 1A, whose original 260 had too many freeze cracks to salvage. I was able to buy an original Tiger 289, and it has needed to be bored .030 over. I am retaining the original cast iron heads, new mild cam for a bit more torque, new taller valve springs, hardened valve seats. I'm inclined to use the Edelbrock carb, but wondered 500 or 600 cfm? I presume a manual choke. Thin carb spacer? Using the Mk 11 timing cover, must I use the cast iron water pump, or can I use the aluminum. I don't think I want a high volume one. For the flywheel, a lightened steel one, or aluminum? And probably a Centerforce clutch, per the recent discussions. Thanks for all the help, this list is great. David You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 10:48:00 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 09:48:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... Gee..., I hope that all 61 of the Mustangs don't end up being crushed because of the VIN issue! Do they have stamped on body VIN's too, or like the Tiger can they have a "floating" identity? Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1487 - Release Date: 6/6/2008 8:01 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 10:56:44 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: tigers@autox.team.net, Thomas Witt Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... Crushing such cars sure seems like a very narrow minded solution. Hopefully all the new components can at least be salvaged if it's only the core body shell that's at issue. --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Thomas Witt wrote: > From: Thomas Witt > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... > To: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 12:48 PM > Gee..., I hope that all 61 of the Mustangs don't end up > being crushed > because of the VIN issue! Do they have stamped on body > VIN's too, or like > the Tiger can they have a "floating" identity? > Tom > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1487 - Release > Date: 6/6/2008 8:01 > AM > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as gswaybright@yahoo.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:00:38 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , , "Thomas Witt" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:00:48 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... I did a bit more checking and it turns out that newsclip was from last fall. Unique Performance has since declared bankruptcy (financial in addition to moral ;)) and an auction was held earlier this year to raise cash so that the investors and clients could recoup some of their money. That auction raised under a million so they're doing another round near the end of June. Apparently some of the bodyshells are not constructed with a great deal of care - there's stories of 5-gallon cans of bondo in the trunks of some cars. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Waybright Sent: June 6, 2008 10:57 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net; Thomas Witt Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... Crushing such cars sure seems like a very narrow minded solution. Hopefully all the new components can at least be salvaged if it's only the core body shell that's at issue. --- On Fri, 6/6/08, Thomas Witt wrote: > From: Thomas Witt > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... > To: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Friday, June 6, 2008, 12:48 PM > Gee..., I hope that all 61 of the Mustangs don't end up being crushed > because of the VIN issue! Do they have stamped on body VIN's too, or > like the Tiger can they have a "floating" identity? > Tom > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1487 - Release > Date: 6/6/2008 8:01 > AM > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as gswaybright@yahoo.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:04:36 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: dhhall@bellsouth.net Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:04:46 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries David, A partial reply to your questions. Do not forget to pay attention to the cooling system. It isn't adequate for the 260, much less a modified 289. Easy reference: http://www.tigersunited.com/techtips/SteveLaifmanValance/pt-SteveLaifmanValance1.asp My Holley 4 BBL, on the LAT manifold, is 432 CFM has an electric choke, which works quite well. This is the original LAT carb and still available, new, at Sunbeam Specialties. You might be able to use the 600 cfm version, but on many Tigers this results in stumble on sudden throttle mash, due to "overcarburation". May be suitable for the 289 version, but pay attention to carb tuning (jet sizes, orifices, etc.) Steve Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com dhhall@bellsouth.net wrote: > My engine is at the shop, and I'd like some advice about ancillaries. My goal is a largely stock, or period available, with adequate power for touring, and good driveability. I have a Mk 1A, whose original 260 had too many freeze cracks to salvage. I was able to buy an original Tiger 289, and it has needed to be bored .030 over. I am retaining the original cast iron heads, new mild cam for a bit more torque, new taller valve springs, hardened valve seats. I'm inclined to use the Edelbrock carb, but wondered 500 or 600 cfm? I presume a manual choke. Thin carb spacer? Using the Mk 11 timing cover, must I use the cast iron water pump, or can I use the aluminum. I don't think I want a high volume one. For the flywheel, a lightened steel one, or aluminum? And probably a Centerforce clutch, per the recent discussions. Thanks for all the help, this list is great. David _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:06:57 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: Theo.Smit@dynastream.com, gswaybright@yahoo.com, Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:07:14 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... Before the fraud was discovered were all the cars sold privately or were some going at major auctions? M **************Get trade secrets for amazing burgers. Watch "Cooking with Tyler Florence" on AOL Food. (http://food.aol.com/tyler-florence?video=4?&NCID=aolfod00030000000002) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:18:32 2008 From: "Tigerman" To: "Thomas Witt" , Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:18:43 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act... The 67 Mustang's had a vin plate that was riveted to the door (which got removed and rerivited if you ever replaced the drivers door). They also had it stamped in the metal in the location shown in the video. I believe in 68 the new federal standards for VIN numbers was instituted and then they had the VIN number you could see in the windshield like today's cars plus some other location (not sure as I am only familiar with the 67). I've always thought those early mustangs must have easily been chopped up and resold cars, because of the vin numbers (the one on my car is BARELY readable to begin with). There was a news article last year I think how a guy got his Mustang back after something like 35 years. It was stolen and resold and the next owner had it purchased for her from her father as a going to college car, which she held onto for many years. I think she even had it restored at one time, and then she finally decided to sell it and then when someone ran the VIN number and found that it was reported stolen that many years ago, and they returned the car to original owner. I thought it that report though the VIN number was correct on the new owners title, so I don't know how the state missed that for so many years. Steve > Gee..., I hope that all 61 of the Mustangs don't end up being crushed > because of the VIN issue! Do they have stamped on body VIN's too, or like > the Tiger can they have a "floating" identity? > Tom _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:43:40 2008 From: "Norman C. Miller" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:43:52 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] SUBWAY At least the vehicle use for the display is a genuine factory built Sunbeam Tiger. And it is the car that was being offered by Fantasy Junction. http://www.classictiger.com/mudge/special-help/getsmartpromo.jpg ncm Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1487 - Release Date: 6/6/2008 8:01 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 11:56:58 2008 From: Kenda Sawhill To: tiger Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Unique Performance I had read on the Foose web site a while back that he had terminated all relations with Unique and had wondered what had happened. I guess now I know. I believe they were the ones building the Foose Mustang and I think they had a hand in the Foose coupe. Mac Sawhill _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:12:27 2008 From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:12:23 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Caught in the act From: "Tigerman" [snip] There was a news article last year I think how a guy got his Mustang back after something like 35 years. It was stolen and resold and the next owner had it purchased for her from her father as a going to college car, which she held onto for many years. I think she even had it restored at one time, and then she finally decided to sell it and then when someone ran the VIN number and found that it was reported stolen that many years ago, and they returned the car to original owner. [snip]. Actually, she wasn't selling it. And, in the end, the original owner, in his late 60's, came down to pick up the car, drove it around the block, then offered to sell it to her for $5 or some little amount like that, which she paid. The articles are on the net somewhere. Jay ====================================================================== Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in and transmitted with this communication is strictly confidential, is intended only for the use of the intended recipient, and is the property of Countrywide Financial Corporation or its affiliates and subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of the information contained in or transmitted with the communication or dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately return this communication to the sender and delete the original message and any copy of it in your possession. ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:15:33 2008 From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:15:46 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Fw: Caught in the act Whoops. I was wrong. She was trying to sell it, and he is 80. http://articles.latimes.com/2008/mar/21/local/me-mustang21 I'm trying to find the article where he drove it and sold it back. ----- Forwarded by Jay Laifman/Attorney/Legal/CF/CCI on 06/06/2008 11:13 AM ----- Jay Laifman/Attorney/Legal/CF/CCI 06/06/2008 11:12 AM To tigers@autox.team.net cc Subject Re: Caught in the act From: "Tigerman" [snip] There was a news article last year I think how a guy got his Mustang back after something like 35 years. It was stolen and resold and the next owner had it purchased for her from her father as a going to college car, which she held onto for many years. I think she even had it restored at one time, and then she finally decided to sell it and then when someone ran the VIN number and found that it was reported stolen that many years ago, and they returned the car to original owner. [snip]. Actually, she wasn't selling it. And, in the end, the original owner, in his late 60's, came down to pick up the car, drove it around the block, then offered to sell it to her for $5 or some little amount like that, which she paid. The articles are on the net somewhere. Jay ====================================================================== Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in and transmitted with this communication is strictly confidential, is intended only for the use of the intended recipient, and is the property of Countrywide Financial Corporation or its affiliates and subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of the information contained in or transmitted with the communication or dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately return this communication to the sender and delete the original message and any copy of it in your possession. ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:22:26 2008 From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 11:22:38 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Ok, $38 not $5 on stolen Mustang >From another car list: The television news just reported that the true owner of the car came down to San Diego, got in the car and drove it out of Judy Smongesky's driveway. Apparently, he drove it around the block and brought it back. He offered to sell it to Smongesky and she accepted. The sale price was $38 (a dollar for each year that she has had the car). __________________ ====================================================================== Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in and transmitted with this communication is strictly confidential, is intended only for the use of the intended recipient, and is the property of Countrywide Financial Corporation or its affiliates and subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of the information contained in or transmitted with the communication or dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately return this communication to the sender and delete the original message and any copy of it in your possession. ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:37:24 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 19:37:40 +0100 Subject: [Tigers] its stuck! i've spend the afternoon attempting to remove my engine. all went well until i tried to lower the engine out of the bottom on a hydraulic lift. whatever i do, the front pipe or front two pipes of the headers jam in the frame rail. the only idea i have is to remove the headers (or at least one side), but access to the rear bolts with the engine still in the car is going to be extremely hard. i guess this is normal? _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:44:05 2008 From: "Tigerman" To: "Tiger List" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:44:11 -0600 Subject: [Tigers] Wikipedia I noticed that Wikipedia now has an article on the Sunbeam tiger. I noticed what I believe to be several factual errors on the page. Thought I would see what the consensus of the board was concerning what SHOULD be written there. Also, I am not a normal Wikipedia contributor, but I believe they are big about wanting as many references as possible to back up the facts, so anyone interested in changing the content would need to make sure to reference as many sources as possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbeam_Tiger Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:49:23 2008 From: Rob To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 13:48:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [Tigers] Unique In Dallas Everything was sold via on-line auction. It cost $150 to register. That was applied against any items you won. I went over and inspected a lot of stuff I was interested in. The two warehouses were crawling with FORD gearheads. It took two auctions to finally liquidate everything. Both Foose and Shelby had ties to this operation. They divorced themselves of Unique in a hurry when the pooh hit the fan. In the end, greed was the undoing. All the shop tools, floor fans, lights, autographed memorabilia, chairs, etc. were in the auction. There were several "shells" that were sold. There were piles of Foose custom wheels, complete posi rearends but much was sold in large lots. So if you needed a rear end, you might have to buy 10... An interesting auction to say the least... Rob _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 12:52:13 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Tigerman" , "Tiger List" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:52:27 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Wikipedia I updated the Wikipedia entry on the Tiger a few years ago. Since then it's been edited further, but I'm not sure who the other contributors are. What are the factual errors? Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tigerman Sent: June 6, 2008 12:44 PM To: Tiger List Subject: [Tigers] Wikipedia I noticed that Wikipedia now has an article on the Sunbeam tiger. I noticed what I believe to be several factual errors on the page. Thought I would see what the consensus of the board was concerning what SHOULD be written there. Also, I am not a normal Wikipedia contributor, but I believe they are big about wanting as many references as possible to back up the facts, so anyone interested in changing the content would need to make sure to reference as many sources as possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbeam_Tiger Steve You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 13:55:24 2008 From: To: tigers@autox.team.net, dhhall@bellsouth.net Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:55:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I have a 500 cfm edelbrock on my nearly stock 260. It works great, good driveablility. As others have said, if your 289 is a 6 bolt bellhousing design you will need to change bell housings and clutch slave cylinder mounting bracket. The bell housing change is not clean because the original Tiger 4 speed only has the small ear bolt pattern. All commonly available 6 bolt bellhousings only have the large ear pattern. If you switch to a Tiger MkII toploader or a T5 5 speed you avoid this problem The mkII timing cover uses a Ford Cast iron water pump with a metal backing plate built in. You will need this style pump or an aftermarket Hi Flow pump for this application. IMHO the best money you can spend on this rebuild is to buy an Edelbrock Aluminum high flow water pump. I fought cooling problems on my Tiger for close to a year and a half. I followed every on line Tiger cooling article and the advice of those on this list. The car would still overheat at speed on the highway or climbing hills. Changed the water pump and the car now runs 200 F tops. Does not over heat at idle, in traffic or on the open road. I have learned to watch the scenery while driving instead of the dash board :) I would leave the flywheel stock. Erich ---- dhhall@bellsouth.net wrote: > My engine is at the shop, and I'd like some advice about ancillaries. My goal is a largely stock, or period available, with adequate power for touring, and good driveability. I have a Mk 1A, whose original 260 had too many freeze cracks to salvage. I was able to buy an original Tiger 289, and it has needed to be bored .030 over. I am retaining the original cast iron heads, new mild cam for a bit more torque, new taller valve springs, hardened valve seats. I'm inclined to use the Edelbrock carb, but wondered 500 or 600 cfm? I presume a manual choke. Thin carb spacer? Using the Mk 11 timing cover, must I use the cast iron water pump, or can I use the aluminum. I don't think I want a high volume one. For the flywheel, a lightened steel one, or aluminum? And probably a Centerforce clutch, per the recent discussions. Thanks for all the help, this list is great. David > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as e.coiner@cox.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 14:25:43 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:25:57 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I would argue that changing to a low-inertia flywheel is an easy, safe, and relatively inexpensive way to improve the acceleration performance of the Tiger. Also, since it's inside the bellhousing, there's no issue with stock appearance. As far as "period availability" goes, you have to think that at least some of the race car builders in 1964 had figured out the benefits of light flywheels. I've never heard or read of details on the clutch and flywheel used in the HSC Tiger, but I'd be surprised if that was a stone left unturned by Doane Spencer. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of e.coiner@cox.net Sent: June 6, 2008 1:56 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net; dhhall@bellsouth.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I would leave the flywheel stock. Erich _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 6 14:50:20 2008 From: "Tigerman" To: "Smit, Theo" , "Tiger List" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:50:24 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Wikipedia I thought that the Ken Miles Car was the simple feasibility prototype (as stated) and was prototype #1 (its stated as #2) , and the more complete prototype done by Shelby's shop was #2 (its stated as #1). I'm not an expert so I was hoping to get the people who are experts on the board involved it to insure it is accurate. Probably could be alot more info out there as well, as long as it is well referenced it might make a nice tiger overview, as most people I run into have no idea what a Sunbeam tiger is, but do know to either Google or Wikipedia something they are interested in. As far as who the contributors are on Wikipedia, anyone who is wiling to log into Wikipedia can update any entry, so it is controlled by community policing only. In the past I updated one obscure article on Wikipedia, so I am not really claiming to be a Wikipedia expert either. I just know it is tough to justify a change if you don't have a reference to back it up, and the change I made was related to personal experience which I couldn't find records to verify it. So I choose not to update anything on the tiger article hoping people with more knowledge than myself would have the best and most complete info. Steve I updated the Wikipedia entry on the Tiger a few years ago. Since then it's been edited further, but I'm not sure who the other contributors are. What are the factual errors? Theo I noticed that Wikipedia now has an article on the Sunbeam tiger. I noticed what I believe to be several factual errors on the page. Thought I would see what the consensus of the board was concerning what SHOULD be written there. Also, I am not a normal Wikipedia contributor, but I believe they are big about wanting as many references as possible to back up the facts, so anyone interested in changing the content would need to make sure to reference as many sources as possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunbeam_Tiger Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 7 10:55:28 2008 From: "Norman C. Miller" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 09:55:30 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] CROSS-DRESSER I thought you should know about this little depiction. If you have the chance, spread the word. http://www.classictiger.com/mudge/special-help/alger-alert.jpg ncm Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.0.0/1489 - Release Date: 6/7/2008 11:17 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 7 13:47:32 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:47:50 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Three Greetings, All. Okay, so I've spent the past few hours getting reacquainted with working in a Tiger engine bay. It's true, what they say, about the incredible ability of the human mind to completely blank out traumatic experiences from our memories. I'd forgotten how many pieces have to be taken off just to get enough room to complete a few simple tasks! So, here is what I have found so far: 1. With the timing marks at TDC, the #1 piston does seem to be at TDC. Movement either way on the crank seems to only result in the piston going down. Therefore, the balancer should be okay. 2. Again, with the timing marks at TDC, the rotor looks to be slightly beyond cylinder #1 position, which I guess would reflect the advance that I have dialled in. 3. I tried grabbing the rotor and turning it, and it is quite easy to move it a few degrees in each direction, but not more than that (I don't want to twist on it too hard). It seems to me that there is always some play in distributors, but this does perhaps seem a bit excessive. Also, I have always found distributors to be spring-loaded, in that it is possible to move the rotor a bit, but that it will always snap back into position as soon as you let go (mechanical advance). In the case of my distributor, it will stay wherever it is left. 4. It is important to take the car out of gear before trying to turn the engine over by hand. =) 5. Cold beer is great on a hot day. So, seeing as the distributor housing can rotate independently of the shaft and rotor, my tests do not necessarily eliminate the possibility that the timing gears/chain have slipped, but I think that this is vary unlikely. I've decided to replace the distributor with a vacuum advance unit while I'm in there, and have decided on a Pertronix billet distributor. I found a pretty good deal on it, it is simple to install, and it doesn't look too drastically different from stock. I also should never have to worry about it slipping. That's the progress so far. I'm doing a compression test and changing the plugs while I'm in there, and will let everyone know what the result is when I get it back together. Cheers, Shaun _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 7 14:46:10 2008 From: "Jim" To: "'Shaun Laughy'" , Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:46:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Three ..." I've decided to replace the distributor with a vacuum advance unit while I'm in there, and have decided on a Pertronix billet distributor. I found a pretty good deal on it, it is simple to install, and it doesn't look too drastically different from stock."... I have a mechanical advance Pertronics and it works great!!!...but it DOES have a Chevy cap on it... :( Jim B382000446 -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jim=island.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jim=island.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Shaun Laughy Sent: June 7, 2008 12:48 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Three Greetings, All. Okay, so I've spent the past few hours getting reacquainted with working in a Tiger engine bay. It's true, what they say, about the incredible ability of the human mind to completely blank out traumatic experiences from our memories. I'd forgotten how many pieces have to be taken off just to get enough room to complete a few simple tasks! So, here is what I have found so far: 1. With the timing marks at TDC, the #1 piston does seem to be at TDC. Movement either way on the crank seems to only result in the piston going down. Therefore, the balancer should be okay. 2. Again, with the timing marks at TDC, the rotor looks to be slightly beyond cylinder #1 position, which I guess would reflect the advance that I have dialled in. 3. I tried grabbing the rotor and turning it, and it is quite easy to move it a few degrees in each direction, but not more than that (I don't want to twist on it too hard). It seems to me that there is always some play in distributors, but this does perhaps seem a bit excessive. Also, I have always found distributors to be spring-loaded, in that it is possible to move the rotor a bit, but that it will always snap back into position as soon as you let go (mechanical advance). In the case of my distributor, it will stay wherever it is left. 4. It is important to take the car out of gear before trying to turn the engine over by hand. =) 5. Cold beer is great on a hot day. So, seeing as the distributor housing can rotate independently of the shaft and rotor, my tests do not necessarily eliminate the possibility that the timing gears/chain have slipped, but I think that this is vary unlikely. I've decided to replace the distributor with a vacuum advance unit while I'm in there, and have decided on a Pertronix billet distributor. I found a pretty good deal on it, it is simple to install, and it doesn't look too drastically different from stock. I also should never have to worry about it slipping. That's the progress so far. I'm doing a compression test and changing the plugs while I'm in there, and will let everyone know what the result is when I get it back together. Cheers, Shaun You are subscribed as jim@island.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 7 17:36:28 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:36:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Tigers, Racing is a great passion. Who can forget the thrill of a win for a running in last place to pull ahead of ALL the competition in the last run to the finish line, and *win* the race. Especially with today's exciting broadcast. I never saw this race, but I heard in on my father's 78 rpm record. Here (I hope) is announcer Joe Hernandez calling the last stretch. A CLASSIC WIN. "R/eturn with us, now, to those thrilling days of yesteryear, from out of the past ...../" Listen to the progress of the last racer. http://www.secondrunning.com/mal2.wav ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 7 20:37:46 2008 From: Sjhcobra1@cs.com To: slaughy@rogers.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:37:40 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Engine Woes - Part Three Shaun: When you install the Pertronix distributor be sure that it fits all the way down and seats into the cam gear. Two years ago Pertronix had a design flaw and the distributors would not seat properly. Hopefully they have fixed their problem. Steve Halbrook _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 11:33:57 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Tiger's Den Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:34:07 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] The Great Race Tigers, Racing is a great passion. Who can forget the thrill of a win for a last place runner to pull ahead in the last turn and win the race. Especially with today's exciting broadcast. I never saw this race, but I heard in on my father's 78 rpm record. Here is announcer Joe Hernandez calling the last lap. A CLASSIC WIN. "Return with us, now, to those thrilling days of yesteryear, from out of the past ....." http://www.secondrunning.com/mal2.wav SPEAKERS ON! Steve -- ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 12:21:01 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: owain.lloyd@gmail.com, Tiger's Den Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:21:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] The Great Race Owain, and Tigers, Yes, it is. Yes, I did - BUT: 1. I thought I did. 2. I didn't see it in my Inbox, so thought it didn't go through. 3. So I unknowingly sent a duplicate Sorry for the error. I remembered that race recording since I was a kid. Apologies. :'( Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Owain Lloyd wrote: > steve, > is this horse racing? didn't you send this yesterday? > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Steve Laifman wrote: > >> Tigers, >> >> Racing is a great passion. >> >> Who can forget the thrill of a win for a last place runner to pull ahead >> in the last turn and win the race. Especially with today's exciting >> broadcast. <---- snip ----> _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 12:30:00 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Steve Laifman" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:30:10 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] The Great Race :) none needed! just browsing that site ... quite an education. On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Steve Laifman wrote: > Owain, and Tigers, > > Yes, it is. > Yes, I did - BUT: > > I thought I did. > I didn't see it in my Inbox, so thought it didn't go through. > So I unknowingly sent a duplicate > > Sorry for the error. I remembered that race recording since I was a kid. > > Apologies. :'( > > Steve > > ___ > Steve Laifman > Editor - TigersUnited.com > > > Owain Lloyd wrote: > > steve, > is this horse racing? didn't you send this yesterday? > > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 6:34 PM, Steve Laifman wrote: > > > Tigers, > > Racing is a great passion. > > Who can forget the thrill of a win for a last place runner to pull ahead > in the last turn and win the race. Especially with today's exciting > broadcast. > > <---- snip ----> _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 12:41:25 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Tiger's Den" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:41:38 +0100 Subject: [Tigers] tiger gets a mention in latest james bond i spent much of my day lounging on the terrace and reading the latest 007 book which is pretty light to say the least. i perked up as bond explains to his female companion (who's driving an alpine) the difference between the alpine and the tiger! bond apparently thinks the alpine chassis can't handle the v8 torque :) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 17:20:17 2008 From: "Ronak, TP \(Timothy\)" To: Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 19:20:23 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] timing OK Shaun, It looks like you found the problem ... it sounds to me like the advance spring broker or fell off. This could have been due to the jarring. Swapping the distributor should correct the problem but I would LOVE to hear the outcome. Best Regards, Tim Ronak Services Consultant Akzo Nobel Coatings, Inc. PH: 949-305-5393 Cell: 949-289-3357 FX: 425-955-6268 Email: timothy.ronak@crna.akzonobel.com Personal Email: timronak@cox.net If you received this message in error please inform the sender and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 18:31:51 2008 From: "Shaun Laughy" To: "'Ronak, TP \(Timothy\)'" Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:31:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] timing Hi, Tim. Well, I HOPE I have found the problem, but won't know for sure for a while yet. I had a few hours to work on the car today, and spent most of it trying to retrieve the spark plug that I dropped down into the driver's side motor mount. I bet I'm not the only person ever to do that... What I learned today? 1. Don't drop a spark plug into a Tiger motor mount! 2. My valve cover bolts were only finger tight. This likely explains the occasional drop of oil that I was getting on the garage floor, so I am happy to find it. I was also reminded of how hard it is to get at some of the valve cover bolts on a Tiger. 3. My radiator is currently held on with only two bolts. 4. Spark plug wires for cylinder 7 and 8 were run side-by-side, which I understand to be a bad thing? 5. Cold beer is really good on a hot day. Okay, I was pretty sure about this one already, but I firmly believe in a scientific approach involving repeated experimentation within a controlled environment. So far, my findings have been very consistent... Don't get the wrong impression -- this is a very solid car with high-quality components and workmanship throughout. I am just glad to have the opportunity to go through it to get to know it better, and discover the little things that need attention here and there. Having fun, but my hands are very sore after working on the plugs today! I had managed to avoid pulling the radiator so far, but will be doing that next as I want to put the Ford 6-blade fan back on instead of the flex fan that was on there. I have seen the damage these can do when they come apart -- my neighbour has a big hole in the hood of his '67 Camaro were one blade departed and went right through like it was made of paper! I have visions of pedestrians being decapitated whenever I think about this... I'm going to try to do some work on it this week, and will keep everyone posted. Cheers, Shaun -----Original Message----- From: Ronak, TP (Timothy) [mailto:Timothy.Ronak@crna.akzonobel.com] Sent: June 8, 2008 7:20 PM To: slaughy@rogers.com Cc: Tiger News Group List Subject: timing OK Shaun, It looks like you found the problem . it sounds to me like the advance spring broker or fell off. This could have been due to the jarring. Swapping the distributor should correct the problem but I would LOVE to hear the outcome. Best Regards, Tim Ronak Services Consultant Akzo Nobel Coatings, Inc. PH: 949-305-5393 Cell: 949-289-3357 FX: 425-955-6268 Email: timothy.ronak@crna.akzonobel.com Personal Email: timronak@cox.net If you received this message in error please inform the sender and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 8 18:37:52 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:38:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Stuff for sale I am doing some garage cleaning, and did it the easy way by putting it on a web page. Not much specific for the Tiger, but some Small Block Ford stuff and Mustang Stuff. This stuff is all for local pick up, and if anyone has any interest give me a holler. http://www.gtsparkplugs.com/ForSale.html Sandy _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 09:35:35 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: , Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:35:40 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries David, I posted this a few months ago when someone else asked for engine opinions. I have just over 9,500 miles on this rebuild, a 1000 of which were this last weekend in 95+ temps going to the Louisville Brit bash. I highly recommend going to the aluminum heads, they work well and its cheaper than rebuilding a set of old ones. -------- I bought a 5-bolt 289 short block from a fellow Tiger member, then bought the Edelbrock alum Performer Plus heads, Comp Cams 262H cam, KB .030-over 9.5:1 hypereutectic pistons, rods and all the internals. I had it built by Stockman Engines through Doug Jennings. Total cost was around $4500. With stock cast headers, F4B intake manifold, 500 CFM Edelbrock carb, dual-point distributor (with Pertronix), and 1.75" exhaust it still makes over 240 at the rear wheel at a reasonable 5200 rpm. I wanted a long-lasting, torquey engine that was manageable and was period correct. So far, with a little over 8K miles on the engine, my expectations have been met. I up-graded the brakes and suspension accordingly, the car is balanced and just a blast to drive. I also own a very original Tiger with an untouched stock power train. I put it on the dyno just for giggles, it made a whopping 132 HP at 4200 rpm. Much room for improvement here, although the car is a very pleasant highway cruiser. Bugz -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of dhhall@bellsouth.net Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 7:17 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] engine ancillaries My engine is at the shop, and I'd like some advice about ancillaries. My goal is a largely stock, or period available, with adequate power for touring, and good driveability. I have a Mk 1A, whose original 260 had too many freeze cracks to salvage. I was able to buy an original Tiger 289, and it has needed to be bored .030 over. I am retaining the original cast iron heads, new mild cam for a bit more torque, new taller valve springs, hardened valve seats. I'm inclined to use the Edelbrock carb, but wondered 500 or 600 cfm? I presume a manual choke. Thin carb spacer? Using the Mk 11 timing cover, must I use the cast iron water pump, or can I use the aluminum. I don't think I want a high volume one. For the flywheel, a lightened steel one, or aluminum? And probably a Centerforce clutch, per the recent discussions. Thanks for all the help, this list is great. David You are subscribed as mark.rense@ge.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 10:18:01 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Tiger's Den" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:17:21 +0100 Subject: [Tigers] machine it or replace it? everything is super expensive in england so i'm faced with a choice - have my flywheel machined for $150 or buy a new cast one for $180. (steel flywheels are over $450 here...). _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 10:39:10 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , "Tiger's Den" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 10:39:00 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] machine it or replace it? Summit Racing has the Ford M-6375-A302 steel flywheel (25.5 pounds) at $219.95, and the 21 pound cast-iron flywheel (M6375-B302) at $99.95. These are 28.2 oz-in imbalance flywheels - if you have a 5.0 then you'll need different parts. Summit lists over 50 different flywheels for the 302/5.0 engine family, so you would have to do some checking to make sure your choice is correct for your driveline. I know shipping across the pond will cost you (as will import duty and VAT) but it shouldn't cost you over $100 to get it over there. If you're just getting the flywheel resurfaced then it's probably easier to just get it done locally. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 11:01:01 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Smit, Theo" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:59:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] machine it or replace it? is there an accepted rpm limit for cast flywheels or would a steel one be recommended for 6000rpm? sadly Summit only ship to the US and in fact i've already ordered $1000 worth of parts from them this morning to have a colleague bring over for me next week - but a flywheel is pushing it - its kind of anti-social to ask someone to carry that over for you :) On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 5:39 PM, Smit, Theo wrote: > Summit Racing has the Ford M-6375-A302 steel flywheel (25.5 pounds) at > $219.95, and the 21 pound cast-iron flywheel (M6375-B302) at $99.95. > These are 28.2 oz-in imbalance flywheels - if you have a 5.0 then you'll > need different parts. Summit lists over 50 different flywheels for the > 302/5.0 engine family, so you would have to do some checking to make > sure your choice is correct for your driveline. > > I know shipping across the pond will cost you (as will import duty and > VAT) but it shouldn't cost you over $100 to get it over there. > > If you're just getting the flywheel resurfaced then it's probably easier > to just get it done locally. > > Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 14:58:39 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Tiger's Den" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 21:58:46 +0100 Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day i promise to buy you all a beer.... i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type from '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer for the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my order for a 28oz" from summit before it shipped. the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it with? is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that just shake the engine to bits over 2000rpm? my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try to identify the crank which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 15:06:50 2008 From: "Bob Dixon" To: , "Tiger's Den" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:07:58 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise I'm just guessing, but I'm wondering if the flywheel change was at the same time as the firing order change for small block Fords? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Tiger's Den" Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise >i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day > i promise to buy you all a beer.... > > i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type > from '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. > > now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from > vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer > for the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my > order for a 28oz" from summit before it shipped. > > the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it > with? is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that > just shake the engine to bits over 2000rpm? > my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try to identify the crank > which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 15:12:43 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Bob Dixon" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 22:12:07 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise it may have been, but if the engine was built up from scratch they could have used a cam with any firing order (i think there were 3 different stock ford configurations) and still used either style crankshaft. On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 10:07 PM, Bob Dixon wrote: > I'm just guessing, but I'm wondering if the flywheel change was at the same > time as the firing order change for small block Fords? > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Owain Lloyd" > To: "Tiger's Den" > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 2:58 PM > Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > > >> i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day >> i promise to buy you all a beer.... >> >> i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type >> from '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. >> >> now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from >> vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer >> for the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my >> order for a 28oz" from summit before it shipped. >> >> the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it >> with? is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that >> just shake the engine to bits over 2000rpm? >> my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try to identify the crank >> which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 15:23:14 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Bob Dixon" , , "Tiger's Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:16:09 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise The engine designation change from 302 cubic inches to 5.0 litres was made at the same time (1979 model year) as the firing order and engine balance changes. So when you're building or rebuilding an engine, you have to make sure that you get all your rotating components for the same era engine. You could hypothetically switch camshafts between the different eras, so long as you change the ignition firing order to suit, because that's not related to the engine balance. Owain, I don't know that there is any way to identify the crank just based on what's visible when you have the flywheel off, but it sounds like it would be a good idea to pull the pan and visually inspect the crank. If you're in there anyway, you could install a windage tray and reduce your parasitic horsepower losses a little as well... Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bob Dixon Sent: June 9, 2008 3:08 PM To: owain.lloyd@gmail.com; Tiger's Den Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise I'm just guessing, but I'm wondering if the flywheel change was at the same time as the firing order change for small block Fords? _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 9 16:38:17 2008 From: "Jerry" To: , "'Tiger's Den'" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:34:45 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain, I just talked to my engine man and he says; If you had a wrong weight flywheel the vibration would be tremendous, so it doesn't sound like that's the problem. He said to identify the proper crankshaft you have to drop the pan to see the stampings on the crank i.e. 2MA or 2MAE these would be the 50 oz. the 28 oz. are numbers like 1M. Also the numbers stamped on the damper will be like E0 which is a 50 oz. whereas 9D would be 28 oz. I would think that if you look at the numbers of the damper, (he said they are on the outside like the timing marks) and find that their of the 50oz era you could probably be assured that it is in fact a 50oz rotating mass and not have to remove the pan. On another note a friend of mine has a $70K 65 retro Mustang w/347 eng. with 5 speed and we used a SPEC (SF483HTK) clutch and pressure that he likes very well. I'm not that familiar with it other than installing it for him, but just providing information of another option. They're located in Bessemer Alabama outside of Birmingham. Several of the Mustang guys around here have them and like them. Also, if I'm not mistaken it's the camshaft that determines the firing order not the crankshaft. I changed to a roller cam and had to change the timing order. Jerry Christopherson -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Owain Lloyd Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:59 PM To: Tiger's Den Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day i promise to buy you all a beer.... i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type from '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer for the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my order for a 28oz" from summit before it shipped. the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it with? is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that just shake the engine to bits over 2000rpm? my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try to identify the crank which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 10 08:24:44 2008 From: " Ron Fraser" To: , "'Tiger's Den'" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:23:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain Jerry has given you the best information. Here is some information I have but I can't confirm total accuracy. 5.0L counterweight change to 50 oz in 1985. Early crankshafts are marked 1M on the front counterweight. 302 crankshafts are marked 2M. Early harmonic balancers have a 3 bolt pattern for the pulley. 1970 to present the harmonic balancer has 4 bolt pattern. The 5.0L harmonic balancer, 50 oz balance, has drill holes on the front face uniformly around the circumference. The earlier Harmonic balancer generally only has drill holes in a couple of location around the circumference. The 1 part number on the balancer I have a reference to shows E4TE-6316-A3A. Obviously the crank, balancer and flywheel all need to be the correct balance weight or a vibration will result. Hope this helps Ron Fraser -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Owain Lloyd Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 4:59 PM To: Tiger's Den Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day i promise to buy you all a beer.... i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type from '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer for the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my order for a 28oz" from summit before it shipped. the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it with? is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that just shake the engine to bits over 2000rpm? my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try to identify the crank which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. You are subscribed as rfraser@bluefrog.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1493 - Release Date: 6/9/2008 5:25 PM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 10 08:31:06 2008 From: " Ron Fraser" To: , "'Tiger's Den'" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:31:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain I left out some information here: The 1 part number on the balancer I have a reference to shows E4TE-6316-A3A. This is a 5.0L, 50 oz balancer part number. Ron Fraser _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 11 14:18:46 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:18:27 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Another "Get Smart" article Over at the ALLPAR site there is a featured article on the "Maxwell Smart Car." It is more generic Rootes Group information than the specific Smart Tiger, but still nice to see the adoptive parents honoring the child. http://www.allpar.com/forums/index.php As the owner of a 70's Plymouth Valiant I frequent the site often. I did a double take knowing I was at a Chrysler site..., but was seeing a Tiger. Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1497 - Release Date: 6/11/2008 8:32 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 11 17:34:18 2008 From: "michael king" To: tigers_United_forum Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:33:41 +1000 Subject: [Tigers] Ebay tiger Does anyone know this car? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Tiger-1967-Sunbeam-Tiger-GET-SMART-Perfect-V-8-Must-See_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6472QQihZ003QQitemZ130230107084QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW Very presentable apart from the goofy tim job, and i thought the plates in this photo: http://carad.ebayimg.com/i20/01/a/08/6a/df/fe_4.JPG should be aligned? -- Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 11 18:00:56 2008 From: "Paul R. Breuhan" To: michael king , tigers_United_forum Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:01:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger Michael, It's a really nice car, aside from the goofy two-tone seats and a few other personal tastes added. I like the redline tires and know those cost a bundle. It was only sold a year or so before these guys got it. The photograph of the spec plate is distorted by the lense and camera angle. I was going to try and look at in the next couple of days (if I can arrange something)...I am interested to see how he got that alternator in position there, one of my next projects. Paul > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:33:41 +1000> From: michael.s.king@gmail.com> To: tigers@autox.team.net> Subject: [Tigers] Ebay tiger> > Does anyone know this car?> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Makes-Tiger-1967-Sunbeam-Tiger-GET-SMART -Perfect-V-8-Must-See_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6472QQihZ003QQitemZ130230107 084QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW> > Very presentable apart from the goofy tim job, and i thought the plates in> this photo: http://carad.ebayimg.com/i20/01/a/08/6a/df/fe_4.JPG should be> aligned?> > -- > Regards> > Michael King _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 11 22:27:57 2008 From: Theo Smit To: "Paul R. Breuhan" Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:30:49 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger A late Mk1A shouldn't have the 'spec plate' at all. I'm pretty sure those didn't make it past the B947xxxx series, and the first bunch of B38200xxxx cars had only rivets there. The later cars had nothing below the VIN plate. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 11 23:58:03 2008 From: "Robert Bridgeford" To: tsmit@shaw.ca, prbreuhan@hotmail.com Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:58:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger The car may be OK, but I dont think I've ever seen a car dealer on Ebay with a rating as low as 85%. With 192 total sales, that means 28 people felt something was wrong with their deal. Caveat Emptor! Bob in Sisters OR Bob Bridgeford 541 549 9539 Sisters OR 97759 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 00:19:53 2008 From: "Tiger Man" To: tsmit@shaw.ca, prbreuhan@hotmail.com Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 00:19:38 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger I kind of thought the same thing, but it looks like ebay has changed thier rating system. Seems that only the last 12 months count now for your percentage, so the guy only had 2 bad feedbacks in the past year, but still seems like a shady dealer since he only sells cars Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Bridgeford" To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger > The car may be OK, but I dont think I've ever seen a car dealer on Ebay > with > a rating as low as 85%. With 192 total sales, that means 28 people felt > something was wrong with their deal. Caveat Emptor! > > Bob in Sisters OR > > > > Bob Bridgeford > 541 549 9539 > Sisters OR 97759 > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as tigerman67@hotmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 00:48:41 2008 From: "A. C. Tynes" To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:48:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger All transactions didn't involve cars. Many earlier feedback comments referred to jackets, shoes, dresses, boots, etc. A.C. Tynes New Orleans > -----Original Message----- > From: tigers-bounces+v8tracker=gmail.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers- > bounces+v8tracker=gmail.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Tiger Man > Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 1:20 AM > Cc: tigers@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger > > I kind of thought the same thing, but it looks like ebay has changed thier > rating system. Seems that only the last 12 months count now for your > percentage, so the guy only had 2 bad feedbacks in the past year, but > still > seems like a shady dealer since he only sells cars > > Steve > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Bridgeford" > To: ; > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:58 PM > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger > > > > The car may be OK, but I dont think I've ever seen a car dealer on Ebay > > with > > a rating as low as 85%. With 192 total sales, that means 28 people felt > > something was wrong with their deal. Caveat Emptor! > > > > Bob in Sisters OR > > > > > > > > Bob Bridgeford > > 541 549 9539 > > Sisters OR 97759 > > _______________________________________________ > > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > > > You are subscribed as tigerman67@hotmail.com > > > > Tigers@autox.team.net > > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > > > http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as v8tracker@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 08:16:15 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:16:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger In a message dated 6/11/2008 7:34:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, michael.s.king@gmail.com writes: Does anyone know this car? That car was bought by Jerry Helfman in Michigan from someone in the south such as South Carolina about five years ago. He had the hood scoop, roll bar padding etc. and T-5 transmission (not mentioned) added. He decided he wanted a 1999 Ferrari so he sold it to the present owner named George Huisman, owner of Classic Design Concepts in Novi Michigan. George bought it for his wife who decided she wanted something with an automatic transmission and A/C. As you can see it's very straight and It's a very good driver. John Logan **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 12:52:56 2008 From: drmoonstone@aol.com To: twojohnsons@cox.net, dhhall@bellsouth.net, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:53:02 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Sorry for the late comment. With aluminum heads, polishing and painting really negates much of the performance valve of the material. For higher compression aluminum heads should not be painted or polished. Moonstone -----Original Message----- From: Alvin Johnson To: dhhall@bellsouth.net; tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Hi Dave, Jeez---At least replace those tired old heads. There are some aftermarket iron ones around, or you can paint the aluminum ones. Aluminum heads give power & actually can run w/out knocking on 87 octane. They'll run cooler, too---a bonus for a Tiger. I run a "baby crower" cam in my Mustang to retain the idle quality & give great torque. But to improve the HPower you need attend to the big 3---Heads, Cam, and Intake (or a power adder). Why in the world would you want to spend all that $$$ and still have a car that can't even keep up with a Toyota? Al J You are subscribed as drmoonstone@aol.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 12:58:45 2008 From: "Jeffrey Nichols" To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:59:06 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger Does anyone know this car? That car was bought by Jerry Helfman in Michigan from someone in the south such as South Carolina about five years ago. He had the hood scoop, roll bar padding etc. and T-5 transmission (not mentioned) added. He decided he wanted a 1999 Ferrari so he sold it to the present owner named George Huisman, owner of Classic Design Concepts in Novi Michigan. George bought it for his wife who decided she wanted something with an automatic transmission and A/C. As you can see it's very straight and It's a very good driver. I thought I recognized the car but couldn't quite place it. Now that I look at it, yes its Jerry's car. He used to show up with all kinds of paraphanelia like "Sunbeam Tiger" street signs, little stuffed kid leaning on the bumper, checkered head light covers, etc. I assume all that would go with the car's new owner. It would be interesting to see if he customizes his Ferrari like he did the Tiger. Kip Sheward deals primarily with high end cars and his building is a couple of miles from where I live. I don't know if he is a broker or keeps a inventory of cars inside his building. Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 13:41:15 2008 From: Jeff Eakin To: Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:40:29 -0600 Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart Movie Idea Here's an idea maybe some other clubs could do for grins. The Colorado Association of Tiger Owners (C.A.T.O.) is having a little mini Tiger (no Alpines please)!!! car show/promotion in conjunction with one of the big Denver theatres for opening night of the new Get Smart movie. The theatre is roping off an area by the front door for 7 of our cars and giving us 2 free tix per car plus all the popcorn we can eat for the opening night evening show. The theatre manager thought it was a great idea and was immediately receptive to the idea. We made up a 9 ft. long banner with a Tiger logo and our club logo to hang nearby saying: SUNBEAM TIGERS The Car Maxwell Smart Drives in the Movie Get Smart Provided by C.A.T.O. Colorado Association of Tiger Owners A press release was sent to the local TV stations just in case it's a slow news night and they just happen to be reviewing the movie anyhow and need a short news clip. So far 2 of the stations have called me back to ask questions and express an interest in coming. It opens Friday, June 20th. Jeff Eakin - Pres. C.A.T.O. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 14:21:37 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net, Theo Smit Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:21:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] eBay Tiger Theo is correct, as usual, about the spec plate. MkIA's did not have the plates, and that is a very late MkIA. I also don't believe the rivets on the VIN plate are correct, if that matters. Tod B382002384LRXFE Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 22:30:49 -0600 From: Theo Smit Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger To: "Paul R. Breuhan" Cc: tigers_United_forum Message-ID: <4850A679.30705@shaw.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed A late Mk1A shouldn't have the 'spec plate' at all. I'm pretty sure those didn't make it past the B947xxxx series, and the first bunch of B38200xxxx cars had only rivets there. The later cars had nothing below the VIN plate. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 14:37:27 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Tod Brown Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:37:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] eBay Tiger It has been rumored that "someone" had a lot of metal spec plates reproduced, presumably for repair of original damaged ones. The story goes that a large number of these plates were stolen, presumably for nefarious purposes. In some states it is not legal to use reproduction plates, even if they are altered to contain the correct information. A state inspection of the vehicle, and its registration, required, and a NEW STATE NUMBER is issued for missing ID. Removing and replacing a VIN plate is allowed by licensed body shops to repair damaged bodywork. It is difficult to imagine an accident that would damage the body, but not the plate. Maybe a paint change is adequate grounds. But "reproductions" are considered as forgeries. At least that the way it is in CA. My son's "RED TOI" was given an "Equipment Violation" because the VIN was not visible through the windshield. On the base 1971 VW chassis there never was such an ID, it was stamped on the tranny tunnel. So the infraction was waved by a CHP required inspection. Anyway, that's the way it is, anyway, in California. The stickiest state for auto ID, transfers, and licensing due to the large number of vehicle thefts. Although, lately, it's been Asian tin that is stolen. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Tod Brown wrote: > Theo is correct, as usual, about the spec plate. MkIA's did not have the plates, > and that is a very late MkIA. I also don't believe the rivets on the VIN plate are > correct, if that matters. > > Tod > B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 15:21:36 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I'll bet it makes very little difference in the grand scheme of things if painted or polished, the cooling system takes the brunt of the BTU's out of the motor not the radiation from the surface of the heads. Sandy ----- Original Message ---- From: "drmoonstone@aol.com" To: twojohnsons@cox.net; dhhall@bellsouth.net; tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 11:53:02 AM Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Sorry for the late comment. With aluminum heads, polishing and painting really negates much of the performance valve of the material. For higher compression aluminum heads should not be painted or polished. Moonstone -----Original Message----- From: Alvin Johnson To: dhhall@bellsouth.net; tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 6:47 am Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Hi Dave, Jeez---At least replace those tired old heads. There are some aftermarket iron ones around, or you can paint the aluminum ones. Aluminum heads give power & actually can run w/out knocking on 87 octane. They'll run cooler, too---a bonus for a Tiger. I run a "baby crower" cam in my Mustang to retain the idle quality & give great torque. But to improve the HPower you need attend to the big 3---Heads, Cam, and Intake (or a power adder). Why in the world would you want to spend all that $$$ and still have a car that can't even keep up with a Toyota? Al J You are subscribed as drmoonstone@aol.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as sganz@pacbell.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 16:51:22 2008 From: "Robert Bridgeford" To: todbrown@roadrunner.com, tigers@autox.team.net, tsmit@shaw.ca Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:51:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] eBay Tiger My Mark 1A B382002219 ( TAC'D) has a spec plate, wih correct rivets. But there is one complete strip and paint in the cars history, so changes may have been made.... Bob Bridgeford 541 549 9539 Sisters OR 97759 FA late Mk1A shouldn't have the 'spec plate' at all. I'm pretty sure those didn't make it past the B947xxxx series, and the first bunch of B38200xxxx cars had only rivets there. The later cars had nothing below the VIN plate. Theo You are subscribed as bobbridgeford@msn.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 17:19:32 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: , , Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:19:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] eBay Tiger 382000829 No spec plate, but holes with brit rivets in them. Scott Hutchinson Director of Operations Netjets Large Aircraft Office 860.292.1191 Mobile 843.290.2805 * ******** This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 17:34:46 2008 From: "Norman C. Miller" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:34:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] eBay Tiger Here's a shot of Bob's cowl from the '06 ebay listing. Sure doesn't look like correct 1A rivets to me. http://www.geocities.com/bobs_diehl/e9_1.jpg bob_diehl At 03:51 PM 6/12/2008, Robert Bridgeford wrote: >My Mark 1A B382002219 ( TAC'D) has a spec plate, wih correct rivets. But >there is one complete strip and paint in the cars history, so changes may >have been made.... Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1499 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 7:13 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 17:40:50 2008 From: DJoh797014@aol.com To: tsmit@shaw.ca, prbreuhan@hotmail.com Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:41:04 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger Theo right. Acoording to the BON and other sources The last MK I with spec plate was B9473312 but the rivets remained on the cowl. The rivets and holes ended with the MK IA B382001200. Of course these number are + or -. Dave. Glad I'm living on the 3rd floor. In a message dated 6/11/2008 11:28:33 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tsmit@shaw.ca writes: A late Mk1A shouldn't have the 'spec plate' at all. I'm pretty sure those didn't make it past the B947xxxx series, and the first bunch of B38200xxxx cars had only rivets there. The later cars had nothing below the VIN plate. Theo You are subscribed as djoh797014@aol.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 19:17:59 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net, Theo Smit , Steve Laifman Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 21:18:10 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Spec Plate SS lists the spec plate in their catalog, and has for some time. I know that some folks, whose car did not have one originally, have added it. My Tiger, B382002384LRXFE, of which I am the original owner, never had one. When I had my car resprayed, I insisted that they mask the VIN plate rather than remove it to save the original rivets. Having a car TAC'ed does not mean that the VIN plate is intact, since there are other clues to establish authenticity, but having a virgin VIN plate is still useful. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 12 19:28:03 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Tod Brown Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:28:17 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Sunbeam Tiger Spec Plate Tod, I probably had a typo in my previous memo. "Spec Plates" was meant to be "VIN" plates, as the rest refers to. Sorry. Steve <-------------------------- reference -------------------> "It has been rumored that "someone" had a lot of metal *_spec_* plates reproduced, presumably for repair of original damaged ones. The story goes that a large number of these plates were stolen, presumably for nefarious purposes. In some states it is not legal to use reproduction plates, even if they are altered to contain the correct information. A state inspection of the vehicle, and its registration, required, and a NEW STATE NUMBER is issued for missing ID. Removing and replacing a VIN plate is allowed by licensed body shops to repair damaged bodywork. It is difficult to imagine an accident that would damage the body, but not the plate. Maybe a paint change is adequate grounds. But "reproductions" are considered as forgeries." ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Tod Brown wrote: > SS lists the spec plate in their catalog, and has for some time. I know > that some folks, whose > car did not have one originally, have added it. My Tiger, > B382002384LRXFE, of which I am the > original owner, never had one. When I had my car resprayed, I insisted > that they mask the VIN > plate rather than remove it to save the original rivets. Having a car > TAC'ed does not mean that > the VIN plate is intact, since there are other clues to establish > authenticity, but having a virgin > VIN plate is still useful. > > Tod > B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 06:52:36 2008 From: "Alvin Johnson" To: , , Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:52:44 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Hi Doc, Even given "paint-negation," it's a safe bet that painted heads will yield more HP than any Ford small block iron stocker ever will, no matter how ported, relieved or polished.. First I've heard of it---how can external paint affect internal operation? Would the same hold true for an aluminum block? Painted aluminum heads have been a favorite street racer trick for many years. Al J _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 07:10:49 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: rfraser@bluefrog.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:11:04 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise holy cow! i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" on the front counter weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a 50oz flywheel on there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. on the up side, there is already a windage tray installed :) On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Ron Fraser wrote: > Owain > Jerry has given you the best information. > > Here is some information I have but I can't confirm total accuracy. > > 5.0L counterweight change to 50 oz in 1985. > > Early crankshafts are marked 1M on the front counterweight. > > 302 crankshafts are marked 2M. > > Early harmonic balancers have a 3 bolt pattern for the pulley. > > 1970 to present the harmonic balancer has 4 bolt pattern. > > The 5.0L harmonic balancer, 50 oz balance, has drill holes on the front face > uniformly around the circumference. > > The earlier Harmonic balancer generally only has drill holes in a couple of > location around the circumference. > > The 1 part number on the balancer I have a reference to shows E4TE-6316-A3A. > > Obviously the crank, balancer and flywheel all need to be the correct > balance weight or a vibration will result. > > Hope this helps > > Ron Fraser > > -----Original Message----- > From: tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net > [mailto:tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Owain Lloyd > Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 4:59 PM > To: Tiger's Den > Subject: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > > > i do apologize for the recent flood of incompetent questions! one day i > promise to buy you all a beer.... > > i just checked my old flywheel and it turns out to be the 50oz" type from > '82. my engine is a '72 mexico block 302. > > now either the PO had the wrong flywheel (i was suffering from > vibrations!) or the engine has been rebuilt with a crank and balancer for > the later 50oz" imbalance. fortunately i was able to stop my order for a > 28oz" from summit before it shipped. > > the question is how can i tell what is the correct one to replace it with? > is it possible that the wrong flywheel was fitted or would that just shake > the engine to bits over 2000rpm? my only idea is to pull the oil pan and try > to identify the crank which may be hard if its an aftermarket crank. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as rfraser@bluefrog.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.2.0/1493 - Release Date: 6/9/2008 > 5:25 PM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 07:26:34 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:24:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Ebay tiger/ spec plate This would be consistent with my car, '1452 no spec plate and no reason to believe it was ever there. Cullen B382001452 LROFE Theo right. Acoording to the BON and other sources The last MK I with spec plate was B9473312 but the rivets remained on the cowl. The rivets and holes ended with the MK IA B382001200. Of course these number are + or -. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 07:48:55 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:49:09 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries In a message dated 6/12/2008 5:22:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sganz@pacbell.net writes: the cooling system takes the brunt of the BTU's out of the motor not the radiation from the surface of the heads. Right on Sandy! John Logan **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 08:08:20 2008 From: Gary Crandall To: owain.lloyd@gmail.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:08:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain,   Has the 28 0z. crank been rebalanced to 50 oz.? Does anyone on the Tiger list know if that is possible and if yes, what to look for, or if it was it done incorrectly? You may want to call an engine machine shop to confirm.   Gary    --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com> wrote: From: Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise To: rfraser@bluefrog.com Cc: "Tiger's Den" <tigers@autox.team.net> Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 6:11 AM holy cow! i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" on the front counter weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a 50oz flywheel on there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. on the up side, there is already a windage tray installed. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 08:19:38 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: maliburevue@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:19:47 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise my supplier over here says its not possible to do that but there are some holes drilled in the crank weights and the vibrations were not terrible so i strongly suspect someone has tried that. i guess i'll know by the vibrations after i start it up again. if this is the case i'll have to get a new crank and rebalance the assembly. that'll be fun - trying to find somewhere in the uk to do that and pay less than $1500 :( On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Gary Crandall wrote: > Owain, > > > > Has the 28 0z. crank been rebalanced to 50 oz.? Does anyone on the Tiger > list know if that is possible and if yes, what to look for, or if it was it > done incorrectly? You may want to call an engine machine shop to confirm. > > > > Gary > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd wrote: > > From: Owain Lloyd > Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > To: rfraser@bluefrog.com > Cc: "Tiger's Den" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 6:11 AM > > holy cow! > i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" on the front counter > weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a 50oz flywheel on > there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! > > i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. > > on the up side, there is already a windage tray installed. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 09:13:29 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: maliburevue@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:11:12 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise i think it makes sense to make sure its properly balanced while the engine is out. i'll send the crank, rods, pistons, flywheel, clutch and balancer to a place over here that will balance the assembly for a few hundred bucks. On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:19 PM, Owain Lloyd wrote: > my supplier over here says its not possible to do that but there are > some holes drilled in the crank weights and the vibrations were not > terrible so i strongly suspect someone has tried that. > > i guess i'll know by the vibrations after i start it up again. > > if this is the case i'll have to get a new crank and rebalance the > assembly. that'll be fun - trying to find somewhere in the uk to do > that and pay less than $1500 :( > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Gary Crandall wrote: >> Owain, >> >> >> >> Has the 28 0z. crank been rebalanced to 50 oz.? Does anyone on the Tiger >> list know if that is possible and if yes, what to look for, or if it was it >> done incorrectly? You may want to call an engine machine shop to confirm. >> >> >> >> Gary >> >> >> >> --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd wrote: >> >> From: Owain Lloyd >> Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise >> To: rfraser@bluefrog.com >> Cc: "Tiger's Den" >> Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 6:11 AM >> >> holy cow! >> i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" on the front counter >> weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a 50oz flywheel on >> there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! >> >> i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. >> >> on the up side, there is already a windage tray installed. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 10:04:56 2008 From: drmayf To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:05:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries John, Sandy, and others, I have been glancing at this thread and something is missing here... data and analysis. There are three components to the cooling of the engine: conduction of the heat via the vater, convection of the heat from the surfaces and indeed, radiation. I did an analysis on the engine in my land speed race car which included all three elements. I made the analysis because I wanted to put the radiator in a water tank in the passenger side of the cockpit, and I need to size the tank dimensions. I found a lot of interesting things from doing that analysis: convection plays a major role in cooling and that comes from the surfaces of the head, intake manifold and sides of the block, those areas where air can circulate aound the engine. Radiation also played a part but to a lesser amount. Conduction via the water was still a big player, but not to the exclusion of the others. All three are needed. Of course, when the horsepower is increased beyond that which the radiator can recover then the motor will run hot. The radiator, via the thermostat is the controller of the heat in the engine. Take for example an engine run in very cold climates... they will hardly warm up because of the heat being carried away via convection and radiation. Needless to say, the system needs to be well designed to do the job at hand. Interesting stuff... good thread and I hope it goes farther. I'd like to see some data rather than anecdotal stipulations. mayf Carmods@aol.com wrote: >In a message dated 6/12/2008 5:22:21 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >sganz@pacbell.net writes: > >the cooling system takes the brunt of the BTU's out of >the motor not the radiation from the surface of the heads. > > > >Right on Sandy! > >John Logan _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 10:08:26 2008 From: " Ron Fraser" To: , Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 12:08:21 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain It is normal for a crank to have drill marks; that is how Ford does there balancing, drilling out material and sometimes drilling and adding heavy metal for production balance procedures. Ron Fraser -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Owain Lloyd Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 10:20 AM To: maliburevue@yahoo.com Cc: Tiger's Den Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise my supplier over here says its not possible to do that but there are some holes drilled in the crank weights and the vibrations were not terrible so i strongly suspect someone has tried that. i guess i'll know by the vibrations after i start it up again. if this is the case i'll have to get a new crank and rebalance the assembly. that'll be fun - trying to find somewhere in the uk to do that and pay less than $1500 :( On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Gary Crandall wrote: > Owain, > > > > Has the 28 0z. crank been rebalanced to 50 oz.? Does anyone on the > Tiger list know if that is possible and if yes, what to look for, or > if it was it done incorrectly? You may want to call an engine machine > shop to confirm. > > > > Gary > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd wrote: > > From: Owain Lloyd > Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > To: rfraser@bluefrog.com > Cc: "Tiger's Den" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 6:11 AM > > holy cow! > i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" on the front counter > weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a 50oz flywheel on > there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! > > i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. > > on the up side, there is already a windage tray installed. You are subscribed as rfraser@bluefrog.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1499 - Release Date: 6/12/2008 7:13 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:01:35 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford Fyi if anyone is interested, Dan Gurney will be at Galpin Ford 6-8pm in the San Fernando Valley (Calif) doing autographs and someone also mentioned a car unveiling but not sure about that. http://galpinautosports.com/news.php#dg _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:10:13 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Alvin Johnson Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:10:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Al, Talked to Dr. Moonstone yesterday. His contention is that the rate of heat radiated from a hot aluminum source bears a strong relationship to the thermal emissivity and a rough surface has more surface area than a polished one. In addition, paint provides a barrier to radiated thermal emission rates. He is, of course, in the coating industry, and bears some attention to what he says. I, also, agree with him. If one does not have a temperature issue, then it doesn't matter. But Tigers need attention to this area, especially when modified. More H.P., more heat to be rejected. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Alvin Johnson wrote: > Hi Doc, > Even given "paint-negation," it's a safe bet that painted heads will yield > more HP than any Ford small block iron stocker ever will, no matter how > ported, relieved or polished.. > First I've heard of it---how can external paint affect internal operation? > Would the same hold true for an aluminum block? Painted aluminum heads have > been a favorite street racer trick for many years. > Al J _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:16:32 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: "Steve Laifman" , "Alvin Johnson" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:15:37 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? I had thought that the primary advantage of aluminum head was the resistance to detonation. My understanding was that this was primarily do to the quicker and more even cooling of aluminum vs cast Iron. I had thought that cast iron would develop "hot spots" when used in high compression applications and these would cause pre-ignition. Not sure if I am correct on that or not. ** ******* This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:19:04 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: drmayf@mayfco.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:19:00 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Right on, Mayf, I am reminded of the Jaguar XK 120M at a Palm Springs race day Concour. It had the top brass tank stripped, and polished. Maybe a clear coat as well. Looked great, but the Jag cooling system is marginal at best, and it would overheat rapidly. The original black coloring was for heat radiative emission, and that was destroyed. "It's the heat, not the humidity" :-) Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com drmayf wrote: > <----- snip ------> > All three are needed. Of course, when the horsepower is increased > beyond that which the radiator can recover then the motor will run hot. > The radiator, via the thermostat is the controller of the heat in the > engine. Take for example an engine run in very cold climates... they > will hardly warm up because of the heat being carried away via > convection and radiation. Needless to say, the system needs to be well > designed to do the job at hand. > > mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:26:27 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Sandy Ganz Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:26:43 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford Sandy, Dan is backing the release of his name branded Mustang, like many other specials editions. Believe it will be shown. I bought and use this dealership for my 2005 Ford Thunderbird 50th Anniversary Model (read re-skinned Jaguar XK), and the Galpin agency is very competent. I would go, but have more than one grandkid's graduation to attend. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Sandy Ganz wrote: > Fyi if anyone is interested, Dan Gurney will be at Galpin Ford 6-8pm in the > San Fernando Valley (Calif) doing autographs and someone also mentioned a car > unveiling but not sure about that. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:29:12 2008 From: drmayf To: Steve Laifman Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:29:31 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Yep, look at all the radiators... aren't they mostly black? And a thin coat of paint would seem to offer very little int he way of heat transfer resistance. Sean, you out there? How about doing a quick and dirty analysis of a painted aluminum surface vs an unpainted one? I'll look to see if I can find the applicable properties of paint for thermal emissivity (sp?). Black bodies do radiate better than polished ones. Rough is better than polished because of the increased surface area as was mentioned. mayf Steve Laifman wrote: > Right on, Mayf, > > I am reminded of the Jaguar XK 120M at a Palm Springs race day > Concour. It had the top brass tank stripped, and polished. Maybe a > clear coat as well. Looked great, but the Jag cooling system is > marginal at best, and it would overheat rapidly. The original black > coloring was for heat radiative emission, and that was destroyed. > > "It's the heat, not the humidity" :-) > > Steve > > ___ > Steve Laifman > Editor - TigersUnited.com > > > > drmayf wrote: > >> <----- snip ------> >> All three are needed. Of course, when the horsepower is increased >> beyond that which the radiator can recover then the motor will run hot. >> The radiator, via the thermostat is the controller of the heat in the >> engine. Take for example an engine run in very cold climates... they >> will hardly warm up because of the heat being carried away via >> convection and radiation. Needless to say, the system needs to be well >> designed to do the job at hand. >> >> mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:34:39 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:34:47 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Painting aluminum with a black flat paint will change the emissivity and help with convective heat transfer. High performance air-cooled engines in aircraft and motorcycles have used this technique for many years to achieve faster cooling rates. I've used this concept in designs for the Navy in submarine weapons systems and at GE for numerous products. It's also why my Norton and BSA jugs are painted black. However, since radiation and convection account for only a minor part of the heat dissipation system in a water-cooled engine, I would suspect that painting the heads would have a barely measurable effect. Bugz drmayf wrote: > <----- snip ------> > All three are needed. Of course, when the horsepower is increased > beyond that which the radiator can recover then the motor will run hot. > The radiator, via the thermostat is the controller of the heat in the > engine. Take for example an engine run in very cold climates... they > will hardly warm up because of the heat being carried away via > convection and radiation. Needless to say, the system needs to be > well designed to do the job at hand. > > mayf You are subscribed as mark.rense@ge.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 11:58:25 2008 From: drmayf To: Steve Laifman Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:58:36 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries As an after thought... why do we call automotive radiators radiators? Maybe we should be calling them "convectors", eh? mayf Steve Laifman wrote: > Right on, Mayf, > > I am reminded of the Jaguar XK 120M at a Palm Springs race day > Concour. It had the top brass tank stripped, and polished. Maybe a > clear coat as well. Looked great, but the Jag cooling system is > marginal at best, and it would overheat rapidly. The original black > coloring was for heat radiative emission, and that was destroyed. > > "It's the heat, not the humidity" :-) > > Steve > > ___ > Steve Laifman > Editor - TigersUnited.com > > > > drmayf wrote: > >> <----- snip ------> >> All three are needed. Of course, when the horsepower is increased >> beyond that which the radiator can recover then the motor will run hot. >> The radiator, via the thermostat is the controller of the heat in the >> engine. Take for example an engine run in very cold climates... they >> will hardly warm up because of the heat being carried away via >> convection and radiation. Needless to say, the system needs to be well >> designed to do the job at hand. >> >> mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 12:19:21 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:19:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries That is exactly the discussion I'm looking for! I did poke around on the web and found a car craft article debunking the HP loss/gain in aluminum vs iron head in some ways, with dyno data and while interesting not totally conclusive, but seems to cover a good amount of the common cases run into in warmed over motors. The summary was they picked up 2 sets of heads from Dart Machine who makes an almost identical aluminum and iron head for the SBC. They flowed before testing and the iron head and aluminum were very close in all numbers. The numbers on the dyno were almost not measurably different, they also messed with timing and no difference where motors with either head type would detonate. Some other stuff too. I think the compression for the test was in the mid 10's so while I might not consider it high, others might. Long and short was HP was no different according to dyno data. It did not address any cooling system issues which would be more what this thread was about. I raised the question with the expectation of a response like this, which is much more informative and thus valuable. My thinking is that I would also rather have control on the cooling system then rely on paint, polish, as cast if I'm on the edge, but that I think is a different discussion. I had an orange painted Big Block and the fellow that was helping me build back in the 80's it got pissed of that it was orange and said the best color for an engine is all black for heat removal, and ruined my nice chevy orange paint. It did do one thing nice was hide the oil leaks... I have a polished aluminum big block chevy block in the Cobra (not of my doing, don't like the glitter) but still made over 700hp with a 468" motor, so my initial fear that chrome and polished stuff doesn't make HP was debunked ;-) And in the context of most of us here with Tigers, likely will not make any difference I would apply paint, polish, and still be happy that we all have something to chatter about, and I'll agree all good stuff. Sandy (was too long for the list so I cut it up a bit) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 12:37:03 2008 From: drmayf To: "tigers@autox.team.net" , Alpines Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:37:16 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Sunbeam Fastener Kits Folks, I just received my order of stainless steel fasteners from MMS & Accessories. I am really happy with the product! I called and talked to Nancy Martin and she helped me determine what fasteners I needed. If you need any fastener anywhere on the car, give them a call. They can break out just about anything you need without having to get extras you don't need. And the price was really reasonable especially when compared to other suppliers. I am a happy camper... Their web site is http://www.mmsacc-stainless.com phone is 1-800-441-9451 mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 12:54:03 2008 From: Tony Somebody To: owain.lloyd@gmail.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:54:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise Owain- There is a Tiger restoration person in the UK. I would HOPE he would help you find the best places to have work done and at the cheapest rates- Im sure they see a Yank coming and take advantage of it if they can. Not eveyryone BUT many- joing the UK Tiger club as well- the members should be willing to help as well when it comes to where to spend you money. regards, TonytheTiger --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd wrote: > From: Owain Lloyd > Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > To: maliburevue@yahoo.com > Cc: "Tiger's Den" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 9:19 AM > my supplier over here says its not possible to do that but > there are > some holes drilled in the crank weights and the vibrations > were not > terrible so i strongly suspect someone has tried that. > > i guess i'll know by the vibrations after i start it up > again. > > if this is the case i'll have to get a new crank and > rebalance the > assembly. that'll be fun - trying to find somewhere > in the uk to do > that and pay less than $1500 :( > > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Gary Crandall > wrote: > > Owain, > > > > > > > > Has the 28 0z. crank been rebalanced to 50 oz.? Does > anyone on the Tiger > > list know if that is possible and if yes, what to look > for, or if it was it > > done incorrectly? You may want to call an engine > machine shop to confirm. > > > > > > > > Gary > > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Owain Lloyd > wrote: > > > > From: Owain Lloyd > > Subject: Re: [Tigers] flywheel surprise > > To: rfraser@bluefrog.com > > Cc: "Tiger's Den" > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 6:11 AM > > > > holy cow! > > i just checked my crank and its marked "2M" > on the front counter > > weight which i understand is a 28oz crank. its had a > 50oz flywheel on > > there since i bought the car 5000 miles ago! > > > > i'd better order a 28oz flywheel and balancer. > > > > on the up side, there is already a windage tray > installed. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as achd73@yahoo.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 15:05:26 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: "Paige, Dean" , "triumphs" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford / T-Bird platform Steve, I beleive the latest T-bird was based on the Lincoln LS/Jag S-type platform, not the XK/DB7 platform. I think Galpin carries the Panoz cars as well. Pretty cool dealership. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Steve Laifman wrote: > From: Steve Laifman > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford > To: "Sandy Ganz" > Cc: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 1:26 PM > Sandy, > > Dan is backing the release of his name branded Mustang, > like many other > specials editions. Believe it will be shown. > > I bought and use this dealership for my 2005 Ford > Thunderbird 50th > Anniversary Model (read re-skinned Jaguar XK), and the > Galpin agency is > very competent. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 16:47:26 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: gswaybright@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:47:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford / T-Bird platform Yes, they have the Panoz cars 'still' in the showroom. Same 2 have been in for as long as I can remember. I'm not so hot on the style but whenever I check them out here come the sales guys with $$$ in their eyes! I don't know if Mr. Gurney will be at the Luxury car side, Galpin Ford Proper or GAS. I hope it is in the Museum/GAS where they PIMP your rid And the T-Birds of late definitly don't share the XK/DB7 platform unless it is something other then the TBirds as I think about it. I like the TBirds, in a odd way they remind me of the Tiger from some of the old style they kept. In the back of the Aston/Jag service area one of the managers has a 289 Cobra, and I think some other nice Fords (might be a Boss 302, can't remember). Heading out shortly to Galpin... Sandy ----- Original Message ---- From: Stephen Waybright Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 2:05:09 PM Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford / T-Bird platform Steve, I beleive the latest T-bird was based on the Lincoln LS/Jag S-type platform, not the XK/DB7 platform. I think Galpin carries the Panoz cars as well. Pretty cool dealership. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Steve Laifman wrote: > From: Steve Laifman > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford > To: "Sandy Ganz" > Cc: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 1:26 PM > Sandy, > > Dan is backing the release of his name branded Mustang, > like many other > specials editions. Believe it will be shown. > > I bought and use this dealership for my 2005 Ford > Thunderbird 50th > Anniversary Model (read re-skinned Jaguar XK), and the > Galpin agency is > very competent. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as sganz@pacbell.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 17:18:36 2008 From: "Ross" To: Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:18:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford / T-Bird platform -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+ross_hulse=sbcglobal.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+ross_hulse=sbcglobal.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Waybright Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 2:05 PM Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford / T-Bird platform Steve, I beleive the latest T-bird was based on the Lincoln LS/Jag S-type platform, not the XK/DB7 platform. I think Galpin carries the Panoz cars as well. Pretty cool dealership. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Steve Laifman wrote: > From: Steve Laifman > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Dan Gurney At Galpin Ford > To: "Sandy Ganz" > Cc: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 1:26 PM > Sandy, > > Dan is backing the release of his name branded Mustang, > like many other > specials editions. Believe it will be shown. > > I bought and use this dealership for my 2005 Ford > Thunderbird 50th > Anniversary Model (read re-skinned Jaguar XK), and the > Galpin agency is > very competent. You are subscribed as ross_hulse@sbcglobal.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 19:20:32 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: "tigers@autox.team.net" , Sandy Ganz Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries If Car Craft ran the same compression in both engines, there should be no HP difference between the iron and alum heads... but the thing is, if all else is identicle, you can run higher compression with alum heads before the engine starts pinging because they dissipate heat faster. That's where the extra HP comes from running Alum heads. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Sandy Ganz wrote: > From: Sandy Ganz > Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries > To: "tigers@autox.team.net" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 2:19 PM > That is exactly the discussion I'm looking for! I did > poke around on the web > and found a car craft article debunking the HP loss/gain in > aluminum vs iron > head in some ways, with dyno data and while interesting not > totally > conclusive, but seems to cover a good amount of the common > cases run into in > warmed over motors. The summary was they picked up 2 sets > of heads from Dart > Machine who makes an almost identical aluminum and iron > head for the SBC. They > flowed before testing and the iron head and aluminum were > very close in all > numbers. The numbers on the dyno were almost not measurably > different, they > also messed with timing and no difference where motors with > either head > type would detonate. Some other stuff too. I think the > compression for the > test was in the mid 10's so while I might not consider > it high, others might. > Long and short was HP was no different according to dyno > data. It did not > address any cooling system issues which would be more what > this thread was > about. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 19:52:15 2008 From: "Robert Palmer" To: , , "'Sandy Ganz'" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:51:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I'll weigh in with my $0.02. It's not really the compression ratio that's fundamentally related to horsepower, but absolute compression. For example, I think it's obvious that super/turbo charged motors are more efficient than ones that are normally aspirated even though they generally run much lower compression ratios. To the extent that aluminum heads shed more heat, they can run higher compression ratios to get the same absolute compression at the same temperature. The comparison test that Sandy cites indicates that the heat dissipation of aluminum heads is over rated. One thing you can't argue with - especially in a Tiger - is the appox. 50# weight savings. -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rpalmerbob=roadrunner.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rpalmerbob=roadrunner.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Waybright Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:21 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net; Sandy Ganz Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries If Car Craft ran the same compression in both engines, there should be no HP difference between the iron and alum heads... but the thing is, if all else is identicle, you can run higher compression with alum heads before the engine starts pinging because they dissipate heat faster. That's where the extra HP comes from running Alum heads. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 13 20:55:13 2008 From: Tony Somebody To: "tigers@autox.team.net" , Sandy Ganz Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries It makes me feel good , just to be able to tell my friends that I know(in a direct and or an indirect manner) a BUNCH of smart guys and they are specially "Tiger" smart. Which makes them way smarter than the average car person.In my head at least. TonytheTiger --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Stephen Waybright wrote: > From: Stephen Waybright > Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries > To: "tigers@autox.team.net" , "Sandy Ganz" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 8:20 PM > If Car Craft ran the same compression in both engines, there > should be no HP difference between the iron and alum > heads... but the thing is, if all else is identicle, you > can run higher compression with alum heads before the > engine starts pinging because they dissipate heat faster. > That's where the extra HP comes from running Alum > heads. > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Sandy Ganz > wrote: > > > From: Sandy Ganz > > Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries > > To: "tigers@autox.team.net" > > > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 2:19 PM > > That is exactly the discussion I'm looking for! I > did > > poke around on the web > > and found a car craft article debunking the HP > loss/gain in > > aluminum vs iron > > head in some ways, with dyno data and while > interesting not > > totally > > conclusive, but seems to cover a good amount of the > common > > cases run into in > > warmed over motors. The summary was they picked up 2 > sets > > of heads from Dart > > Machine who makes an almost identical aluminum and > iron > > head for the SBC. They > > flowed before testing and the iron head and aluminum > were > > very close in all > > numbers. The numbers on the dyno were almost not > measurably > > different, they > > also messed with timing and no difference where motors > with > > either head > > type would detonate. Some other stuff too. I think the > > compression for the > > test was in the mid 10's so while I might not > consider > > it high, others might. > > Long and short was HP was no different according to > dyno > > data. It did not > > address any cooling system issues which would be more > what > > this thread was > > about. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as achd73@yahoo.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 00:16:59 2008 From: drmayf To: "tigers@autox.team.net" , Alpines Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 23:15:53 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] An Unresolved Stainless Steel Fastner Question Today I mentioned that I had received my stainless steel bolt assortment for reassembling my car. One of the list members on Alpines asked if I was going to cad plate them. So, like a big dummy, I ask why would I do that? Seems he wasn't really sure either but that some of you folk do it and that I should ask. Ok, so why would anyone cad plate their stainless steel fasteners? Is there a good technical reason or is it cosmetic or what the heck? Us inquiring minds wanna know. Oh, I always use a never seize on ss fasteners if somehow the cad plating is to prevent galling. Galvanic action? help!!! mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 06:54:05 2008 From: "Alvin Johnson" To: "Steve Laifman" Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 08:53:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? If we're talking street cars, I would think the difference would be negligible. AJ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 07:11:20 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:11:36 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries However, since radiation and convection account for only a minor part of the heat dissipation system in a water-cooled engine, I would suspect that painting the heads would have a barely measurable effect. Right on Bugz! Aluminum heads do transfer more heat from the combustion chamber to the coolant. This added transfer lowers the effective compression ratio. John Logan **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 08:55:20 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: gswaybright@yahoo.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:55:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Yes car craft used same bottom ends, just swapped the heads, but the interesting thing was their idea that they might be able to try to advance the timing more on an Aluminum head vs Iron thus proving once and for all that it does do better at reducing hot spots, etc. I think the test and assumption might have been a bit loose at that point but they made the motor rattle at the same timing with either aluminum or iron. Still a 'fair' indicator that not much difference at that compression. I would have loved them to do a 12+:1 motor and see if that might have made something different. One thing I would question is the aluminum head just reducing the hot spots or actually costing some thermal efficiency as mentioned, in which case hp loss. But again, how much? I'll always give some small HP back to get rid of weight ;-) One other thought that I had, since the headers are close to the most exposed outer surface of the cylinder heads how much heat might be absorbed from that? If I'm trying to get rid of heat from convection would seem headers are going to mess with that whole idea. But like I said in the grand scheme of things my vote (IMO) goes with won't be a measurable difference if painted, polished or raw. Sandy P.S. The Galpin event with Dan Gurney was pretty quiet, about as many Saleen folks as Mustang'er. Still nice, and he was very acomadating with the people that did show up. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 10:55:36 2008 From: Howard gentry To: Robert Palmer , tiger list Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:55:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries hi..I do believe that alloy heads do much more to promote good thermodynamanics in the combustion area that can be realised.. zimmer4 The Blues is the only music Original to the United States of America. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Robert Palmer <rpalmerbob@roadrunner.com> wrote: From: Robert Palmer <rpalmerbob@roadrunner.com> Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries To: gswaybright@yahoo.com, tigers@autox.team.net, "'Sandy Ganz'" <sganz@pacbell.net> Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 9:51 PM I'll weigh in with my $0.02. It's not really the compression ratio that's fundamentally related to horsepower, but absolute compression. For example, I think it's obvious that super/turbo charged motors are more efficient than ones that are normally aspirated even though they generally run much lower compression ratios. To the extent that aluminum heads shed more heat, they can run higher compression ratios to get the same absolute compression at the same temperature. The comparison test that Sandy cites indicates that the heat dissipation of aluminum heads is over rated. One thing you can't argue with - especially in a Tiger - is the appox. 50# weight savings. -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rpalmerbob=roadrunner.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rpalmerbob=roadrunner.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Stephen Waybright Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:21 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net; Sandy Ganz Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries If Car Craft ran the same compression in both engines, there should be no HP difference between the iron and alum heads... but the thing is, if all else is identicle, you can run higher compression with alum heads before the engine starts pinging because they dissipate heat faster. That's where the extra HP comes from running Alum heads. You are subscribed as zymmer4@yahoo.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 14 14:13:34 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: tigers@autox.team.net, Sandy Ganz Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:13:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries The flaw with Car Craft's logic is that pinging (pre-ignition) due to advancing the timing is a different effect than pre-ignition due to higher compression ratios, and advancing the ignition timing will not produce the kind of HP increses that higher (effective) compression will. --- On Sat, 6/14/08, Sandy Ganz wrote: > From: Sandy Ganz > Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries > To: gswaybright@yahoo.com, tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Saturday, June 14, 2008, 10:55 AM > Yes car craft used same bottom ends, just swapped the heads, > but the interesting thing was their idea that they might be > able to try to advance the timing more on an Aluminum head > vs Iron thus proving once and for all that it does do > better at reducing hot spots, etc. I think the test and > assumption might have been a bit loose at that point but > they made the motor rattle at the same timing with either > aluminum or iron. Still a 'fair' indicator that > not much difference at that compression. I would have loved > them to do a 12+:1 motor and see if that might have made > something different. One thing I would question is the > aluminum head just reducing the hot spots or actually > costing some thermal efficiency as mentioned, in which case > hp loss. But again, how much? I'll always give some > small HP back to get rid of weight ;-) > > One other thought that I had, since the headers are close > to the most exposed outer surface of the cylinder heads how > much heat might be absorbed from that? If I'm trying to > get rid of heat from convection would seem headers are > going to mess with that whole idea. But like I said in the > grand scheme of things my vote (IMO) goes with won't be > a measurable difference if painted, polished or raw. > Sandy > P.S. The Galpin event with Dan Gurney was pretty quiet, > about as many Saleen folks as Mustang'er. Still nice, > and he was very acomadating with the people that did show > up. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 04:33:48 2008 From: Tony Somebody To: Beamclub Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 03:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Dad's Day Still up from cooling enough to look for parts at the shop and I definitely want to seek completion of repairs and to learn just how much is broken as opposed to just bent. George your bumper brackets are getting closer to the shop door according to my son. I will try to remember to call soon. The real purpose of this email was to send HDD greetings to all of the group who are Daddy's or Grand Daddy's, like my self. Seems there is something to spend money on pretty rapidly. For those who are young enough that their Dad is still with us. Well you are both VERY lucky and I envy ALL who have that group. Its getting daylight, my eyes are sticking closed. Hope I didnt make to many mistakes. CHEERS to our LIST. May you all see many more Daddy's Day's. warmly, TonytheTiger _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 10:58:19 2008 From: "Jim" To: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:56:30 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart movie car(s) If anyone is wondering where they got the 'Tiger' for the Get Smart movie... Would you believe ... Canada...? http://www.sunbeamcanada.org/ARCHIVES/Rota/ROOTES%20ROTA%2020080614%202.2%20 Get%20Smart.pdf Jim B382000446 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 11:31:55 2008 From: "Jim" To: "'Jim'" , Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:30:04 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart movie car(s) Sorry, for some reason, the whole 'link' didn't get highlighted... just copy and paste the entire link including 'pdf' ... Jim -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jim=island.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jim=island.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jim Sent: June 15, 2008 9:57 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart movie car(s) If anyone is wondering where they got the 'Tiger' for the Get Smart movie... Would you believe ... Canada...? http://www.sunbeamcanada.org/ARCHIVES/Rota/ROOTES%20ROTA%2020080614%202.2%20 Get%20Smart.pdf Jim B382000446 You are subscribed as jim@island.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 11:54:08 2008 From: "Stu Brennan" To: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:54:24 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] British Car Day, Brookline, MA The New England Region of Tigers East/Alpines East starts off the summer on June 29 with our usual gathering at British Car Day at the Larz Anderson Auto Museum, in Brookline, MA. There are usually 200 or more British cars of every imaginable description dripping oil on the museum's lawn. Wondering how big it really is? See my pictures from last year at: http://www.pbase.com/sb_photos/bdc2007 The museum's official announcement says it starts at 10:00 AM, but we all know cars will be rolling in much earlier than that. There are details and directions at: http://www.larzanderson.org Registration is $20, and pre-registration is available. As usual, expect to see a few TE/AE members supporting the event, at registration, directing parking, or whatever. There are some new staff members at the museum, and there are signs that this event will be better organized than in the past. All are welcome, member or not. I hope to see you there! Stu Brennan _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 13:28:38 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Tiger's Den Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:28:50 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) Tigers, New L.A.Times article about BMW and Hydrogen Cars. BMW new "Hydrogen 7" has a hydrogen gas fueled prototypes on the road in SoCal. They are loaned to actors and actresses, sports figures, opera stars and other "A" list celebrities. The other models use "fuel cells" to convert hydrogen to combine with oxygen and generate electricity. You would think that the Germans might have learned something from the Hindenburg (1937): http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg But here we go again. The article described many manufacturer's hydrogen offerings as well. In this article Actress Joely Fisher (daughter of Eddie Fisher and Connie Stevens), gets one. Interestingly enough the car has a full tank range of 130 miles. Her closest licensed Hydrogen station available is in Oxnard, CA. Some 120 miles R.T. from Beverly Hills (note: she may NOT live there). In CA, there are only 25 stations statewide. Nationwide there are just 61 stations, including California's. A driver picks up the car from her and drives it to Oxnard for refueling by licensed "attendants", then returns it. Lets see, a range of 130 miles means that the owner must have a half tank before sending it for refueling. On arriving at the fueling station it will have it will get a fill. Upon return it will have a half tank. So, net gain is ZERO. So, the message is: Even if the chauffeur is free, and the fuel is free, you are no better off! To top it off, while the car may be pollution free, the making of the hydrogen takes more energy than it provides in the car. And it ain't cheap. Anyway, take it to heart. The Greenies think this is the solution. Of course the use a bicycle. Have a good day, for you fathers everywhere. It's the only day you get, and YOU have to BBQ! Steve -- ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 14:37:37 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:36:50 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) ------To top it off, while the car may be pollution free, the making of the hydrogen takes more energy than it provides in the car. And it ain't cheap.------ Steve, it is cheap when you and I are paying to subsidize the hydrogen and it makes the owner "feel" so "good". (I suppose the good feeling is because your's and my money is what was spent).-- Bill -- Tigers, New L.A.Times article about BMW and Hydrogen Cars. BMW new "Hydrogen 7" has a hydrogen gas fueled prototypes on the road in SoCal. They are loaned to actors and actresses, sports figures, opera stars and other "A" list celebrities. The other models use "fuel cells" to convert hydrogen to combine with oxygen and generate electricity. You would think that the Germans might have learned something from the Hindenburg (1937): http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg But here we go again. The article described many manufacturer's hydrogen offerings as well. In this article Actress Joely Fisher (daughter of Eddie Fisher and Connie Stevens), gets one. Interestingly enough the car has a full tank range of 130 miles. Her closest licensed Hydrogen station available is in Oxnard, CA. Some 120 miles R.T. from Beverly Hills (note: she may NOT live there). In CA, there are only 25 stations statewide. Nationwide there are just 61 stations, including California's. A driver picks up the car from her and drives it to Oxnard for refueling by licensed "attendants", then returns it. Lets see, a range of 130 miles means that the owner must have a half tank before sending it for refueling. On arriving at the fueling station it will have it will get a fill. Upon return it will have a half tank. So, net gain is ZERO. So, the message is: Even if the chauffeur is free, and the fuel is free, you are no better off! To top it off, while the car may be pollution free, the making of the hydrogen takes more energy than it provides in the car. And it ain't cheap. Anyway, take it to heart. The Greenies think this is the solution. Of course the use a bicycle. Have a good day, for you fathers everywhere. It's the only day you get, and YOU have to BBQ! Steve -- ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com You are subscribed as mrlau@charter.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 14:41:29 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: , Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:41:38 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. Scott Hutchinson Director of Operations Netjets Large Aircraft Office 860.292.1191 Mobile 843.290.2805 ** ******* This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 15:06:35 2008 From: Theo Smit To: Scott Hutchinson Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:09:20 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) In one of last year's Mythbusters episodes, they noted that the Hindenburg was covered with a two-layer finish, the first of which contained iron oxide and the second layer contained aluminum particles, which (in their hypothesis) caused a massive thermite type reaction when it was sparked. They built a model and lit it off in grand fashion, although I forget if the finish mixture they used for that demonstration was close to the real thing. Theo Scott Hutchinson wrote: > I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 15:19:39 2008 From: Steve Sage To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:18:38 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Tiger Idle Issue I've been fighting this for a while but no sure solution yet. When it's hot out, my idle speed tends to be lower, plus when I'm coming to a stop the idle will sometimes drop considerably, then come up again after the stop is completed. In really hot weather, though, the idle still tends to run 300 + RPM lower than normal, from where it can ocasionally stall. Other than that, the car accelerates and cruises beautifully. If I can pick a point where this happens readily, it's if my water temp is over 200-210. If it's 190 or below (normal highway temp in hot weather), it doesn't happen. I have a 289 with a Holley 570 Street Avenger carb. There is already a metal baffle (stock with this carb) in the front float bowl, just under the air passage above, that's supposed to keep fuel from sloshing up there. I've re-checked the float levels in both bowls and the fuel level is just at the bottom of the sight holes. I switched out my old aftermarket "cube" fuel pump and installed a Holley red pump a couple of weeks ago. Fuel pressure is now between 5-6 PSI at hot idle vs the 3-5 when hot with the old pump. This has helped a little bit with the lower RPM issue when hot, but not completely. I talked to Holley about this and the tech guy said to check my power valve size, if the fuel levels were already correct, which they apparently are. The carb came with an 8.5 valve but I checked and the idle vacuum is between 15 and 16 so, by Holley's formula, I need to run the next size smaller, a 7.5, which I've bought and will install this week. Holley says that the bigger power valve would be open even at idle and in addition to hurting gas mileage, this could probably cause the RPM drops at hot idle and coming to stops. Before I take the carb apart again, does the Holley guy's theory make sense? Any additional ideas on what could be causing this? By the way, I installed cruise control last week and it makes an amazingly good difference for long distance cruising. It was a bear of a job (for me anyway) but now that it's done it was definitely worth it. Highly recommended to anyone who's been thinking of it. Steve Sage E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10030e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 15:45:17 2008 From: drmayf To: Steve Laifman Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:45:30 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) As Steve says...H2 is merely a storage medium. It only gives back exactly what it takes to produce it. And the heat available is 1/5, if I remember correctl;y, that of gasoline. So it take a lot of H2 to go anywhere and the power it makes is way less. H2 must be stored at very high pressures in order to get enough volume to go any distance. There are two types of fuel cells that use H2. One gets its O2 fromt he atmosphere and the other is a mix of H2 and O2 called Brown gass (maybe that is Browns gas). On the salt this past summer, Ford ran their H2 fueled fuel cell cal using brown gass. two massive tanks wer needed and the entire front of the car was an ice intercooler to keep the fuel cells cooled. It did however, make a 207+ pass out the back door at the 5 mile trap. There are some H2 busses, I think here in the Las Vegas area. But you have to go to a H2 filling station to get refuled. I haven't seen one yet... On eday it may be ok, but not now. mayf Steve Laifman wrote: >Tigers, > >New L.A.Times article about BMW and Hydrogen Cars. BMW new "Hydrogen 7" >has a hydrogen gas fueled prototypes on the road in SoCal. They are >loaned to actors and actresses, sports figures, opera stars and other >"A" list celebrities. The other models use "fuel cells" to convert >hydrogen to combine with oxygen and generate electricity. > >You would think that the Germans might have learned something from the >Hindenburg (1937): > >http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg > >But here we go again. > >The article described many manufacturer's hydrogen offerings as well. >In this article Actress Joely Fisher (daughter of Eddie Fisher and >Connie Stevens), gets one. Interestingly enough the car has a full tank >range of 130 miles. Her closest licensed Hydrogen station available is >in Oxnard, CA. Some 120 miles R.T. from Beverly Hills (note: she may NOT >live there). In CA, there are only 25 stations statewide. Nationwide >there are just 61 stations, including California's. A driver picks up >the car from her and drives it to Oxnard for refueling by licensed >"attendants", then returns it. > >Lets see, a range of 130 miles means that the owner must have a half >tank before sending it for refueling. On arriving at the fueling station >it will have it will get a fill. Upon return it will have a half tank. > >So, net gain is ZERO. > >So, the message is: Even if the chauffeur is free, and the fuel is >free, you are no better off! > >To top it off, while the car may be pollution free, the making of the >hydrogen takes more energy than it provides in the car. And it ain't cheap. > >Anyway, take it to heart. The Greenies think this is the solution. Of >course the use a bicycle. > >Have a good day, for you fathers everywhere. It's the only day you get, >and YOU have to BBQ! > >Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 15:45:58 2008 From: drmayf To: Tiger's Den Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:46:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) As Steve says...H2 is merely a storage medium. It only gives back exactly what it takes to produce it. And the heat available is 1/5, if I remember correctl;y, that of gasoline. So it take a lot of H2 to go anywhere and the power it makes is way less. H2 must be stored at very high pressures in order to get enough volume to go any distance. There are two types of fuel cells that use H2. One gets its O2 fromt he atmosphere and the other is a mix of H2 and O2 called Brown gass (maybe that is Browns gas). On the salt this past summer, Ford ran their H2 fueled fuel cell cal using brown gass. two massive tanks wer needed and the entire front of the car was an ice intercooler to keep the fuel cells cooled. It did however, make a 207+ pass out the back door at the 5 mile trap. There are some H2 busses, I think here in the Las Vegas area. But you have to go to a H2 filling station to get refuled. I haven't seen one yet... On eday it may be ok, but not now. mayf Steve Laifman wrote: >Tigers, > >New L.A.Times article about BMW and Hydrogen Cars. BMW new "Hydrogen 7" >has a hydrogen gas fueled prototypes on the road in SoCal. They are >loaned to actors and actresses, sports figures, opera stars and other >"A" list celebrities. The other models use "fuel cells" to convert >hydrogen to combine with oxygen and generate electricity. > >You would think that the Germans might have learned something from the >Hindenburg (1937): > >http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg > >But here we go again. > >The article described many manufacturer's hydrogen offerings as well. >In this article Actress Joely Fisher (daughter of Eddie Fisher and >Connie Stevens), gets one. Interestingly enough the car has a full tank >range of 130 miles. Her closest licensed Hydrogen station available is >in Oxnard, CA. Some 120 miles R.T. from Beverly Hills (note: she may NOT >live there). In CA, there are only 25 stations statewide. Nationwide >there are just 61 stations, including California's. A driver picks up >the car from her and drives it to Oxnard for refueling by licensed >"attendants", then returns it. > >Lets see, a range of 130 miles means that the owner must have a half >tank before sending it for refueling. On arriving at the fueling station >it will have it will get a fill. Upon return it will have a half tank. > >So, net gain is ZERO. > >So, the message is: Even if the chauffeur is free, and the fuel is >free, you are no better off! > >To top it off, while the car may be pollution free, the making of the >hydrogen takes more energy than it provides in the car. And it ain't cheap. > >Anyway, take it to heart. The Greenies think this is the solution. Of >course the use a bicycle. > >Have a good day, for you fathers everywhere. It's the only day you get, >and YOU have to BBQ! > >Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 17:54:16 2008 From: "A. C. Tynes" To: Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 18:54:04 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) The Mythbusters episode dealing with the Hindenberg was rerun recently. The conclusion was that the fabric and the hydrogen combined to cause the fire. They duplicated the fabric and found that it would certainly burn, but not with the intensity shown in the old newsreel footage. They tried adding hydrogen and got an explosion. Finally, after building a largish model with the duplicated fabric and filling it with a diluted hydrogen/air mixture, they got a burn just like the newsreel pictures. A.C. Tynes New Orleans > > I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the > exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what > caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. > > > > > Scott Hutchinson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 22:17:25 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Scott Hutchinson Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 21:17:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) Scott, Discovery Channel, Myth Busters, claims that their extreme test would NOT ignite even when highly combustible thermite was over-loaded into the aluminum paint. That may be "common wisdom", but a reading of the referenced article, concluded that massive amounts of the pyrotechnic THERMITE, might have been a contributer, but the actual paint did not contain THERMITE. The hydrogen did burn when air was present. There were reports of some gas bags leaking into the interior spaces, mixing with the air. There might have been a static electricity discharge in the aft end of the interior, which would burn from rear to front. http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg I was a day when the air was charged with static electricity, and the landing cables were conductive. Food for thought, and it has been since May, 1937. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Scott Hutchinson wrote: > I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. > > > > > Scott Hutchinson > Director of Operations > Netjets Large Aircraft _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 22:31:14 2008 From: Chris Thompson To: Steve Laifman Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:31:00 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) An acquaintance of mine who is a big-shot at one of the leading gas-supplying companies has been buying up all the methane resources around the world he can for years now. It's such a cheap resource, it's normally burned off as waste. They are convinced that methane, not hydrogen, will fill that sector void... Chris Steve Laifman wrote: > Scott, > > Discovery Channel, Myth Busters, claims that their extreme test would > NOT ignite even when highly combustible thermite was over-loaded into > the aluminum paint. > > That may be "common wisdom", but a reading of the referenced article, > concluded that massive amounts of the pyrotechnic THERMITE, might have > been a contributer, but the actual paint did not contain THERMITE. > > The hydrogen did burn when air was present. There were reports of some > gas bags leaking into the interior spaces, mixing with the air. There > might have been a static electricity discharge in the aft end of the > interior, which would burn from rear to front. > > http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg > > I was a day when the air was charged with static electricity, and the landing cables were conductive. > > Food for thought, and it has been since May, 1937. > > Steve > > ___ > Steve Laifman > Editor - TigersUnited.com > > > > Scott Hutchinson wrote: > >> I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. >> >> >> >> >> Scott Hutchinson >> Director of Operations >> Netjets Large Aircraft >> > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as chris@cthompson.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sun Jun 15 23:11:30 2008 From: drmayf To: chris@cthompson.net Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:09:53 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW Gas (NOT Gasoline) Aaahhh, since methane is a far worse green house gas than CO2 then we can blame him for global warming when it is accidentally released, lol. Just pulling your chain a bit... Seriously I do no think methane is any better than LNG or CNG for fuel and the US has zillions of cubic feet of the stuff. The issue is again a lack of heat available within the fuel and the very short ranges afforded by the use of those gasses as a motor fuel. CNG cars and pickup have been in circulation for some time now. HAven't caught on because filling stations are very few and very far between and the ranges per very large tank fillup is very short in comparison to gasoline. BioDiesel-electric may be the answer (think like a locomotive). mayf Chris Thompson wrote: >An acquaintance of mine who is a big-shot at one of the leading >gas-supplying companies has been buying up all the methane resources >around the world he can for years now. It's such a cheap resource, it's >normally burned off as waste. They are convinced that methane, not >hydrogen, will fill that sector void... > >Chris > >Steve Laifman wrote: > > >>Scott, >> >>Discovery Channel, Myth Busters, claims that their extreme test would >>NOT ignite even when highly combustible thermite was over-loaded into >>the aluminum paint. >> >>That may be "common wisdom", but a reading of the referenced article, >>concluded that massive amounts of the pyrotechnic THERMITE, might have >>been a contributer, but the actual paint did not contain THERMITE. >> >>The hydrogen did burn when air was present. There were reports of some >>gas bags leaking into the interior spaces, mixing with the air. There >>might have been a static electricity discharge in the aft end of the >>interior, which would burn from rear to front. >> >>http://www.powerset.com/explore/semhtml/LZ_129_Hindenburg?query=Hindenburg >> >>I was a day when the air was charged with static electricity, and the landing cables were conductive. >> >>Food for thought, and it has been since May, 1937. >> >>Steve >> >>___ >>Steve Laifman >>Editor - TigersUnited.com >> >> >> >>Scott Hutchinson wrote: >> >> >> >>>I think the common wisdom is now that the silver nitrate (could have the exact compound wrong) in the fabric covering of the Hindenberg was what caused the fire and not the Hydrogen. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Scott Hutchinson >>>Director of Operations >>>Netjets Large Aircraft >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 00:17:13 2008 From: "michael king" To: tigers_United_forum Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:17:00 +1000 Subject: [Tigers] Wine Country Classic I was looking through the recent pics/reports on the wine country classic meet at the infeon raceway. They had lots of tigers listed, but all but 2 were DNS or DNF. The Tom Sakai car seeming to be the flag flyer.. however in this video go to 2:22 and you will see either practice or the race and the ex-SCF Tiger, yellow (ex shelby?) sakai tiger, fraser onester tiger and a red tiger with white HT running. I see the HSC Tiger was listed as a DNS and does not appear. Has anyone got recent photos or reports on this? Why is the Tiger community so lazzy in getting pics and videos of the cars racing up on onthe web? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSpqCvHbnxg&feature=related -- Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 07:44:53 2008 From: drmayf To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 06:45:08 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Alloy Heads... With regards to alloyheads for our cars, I asked a good friend, way up in Mystic, Conn, what he thought about them. No his credentials are pretty good as you can see in the edited reply he sen tto me....is it of any importance? I dunno.. here is his reply to my question about the use of alloy heads on daily driver moderately hopped up motors. "Been working seemingly day and night LOL success is vastly over rated..LOL.. The alloy heads are a tough call and it depends on the final goals. The interesting thing is a good flowing head will allow the use of a camshaft with less duration and overlap all good for mileage and drivability.. Being alloy they seem less efficient thermally so not good for mileage yet all engines are using alloy heads so probably less important than it seems. Iron heads are more prone to cracking or failure under changes in temperature. We used to crack them on shut down in the Winston Cup days. Removing weight is always a plus for mileage and if it is high off the ground good to remove it for handling issues, though I doubt if 20 lbs makes much of a difference on a passenger car going legal speed limits. Using the track as a dyno is a very bad idea as it is subjective rather than objective. You are a science guy and am sure well aware of all that is involved in proper testing and removing opinion from the results. . I am in the middle of doing 2 motorcycles for Bonneville, 2 Nissan GTP cars and a Riley Scott ford WSC car.. a Formula Holden, a Cosworth DFV for a formula 3000 car and a bunch of of other nagging small projects.. So more than a little busy and the reason for being a little scarce.. Dave" Dave owns and runs an Engine Management Service company for high end race mosheens. He builds and tunes these cars and bkes as well as doing a lot of hand made intake manifold systems for race cars. When iwant an opinion on someting I am doing he alwasy has an opinion, lol. He is a good guy for me.. mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 08:54:19 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:54:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) Well, I am sure there will be accidents with hydrogen, if and when it ever comes to be used to power autos. On the other hand, we also have accidents occasionally with gasoline. It is one of the reasons why sailboats started to use diesel engines for auxiliary power instead of the old atomic 4's. Nevertheless, although H2 has a long way to go to become a viable source of power, due to technical issues as well as distribution, it is, IMHO, worth considering, if for no other reason than being able to save the diminishing supply of gasoline for things for which there is no substitute, such as old sports cars. If gasoline prices continue to rise, other sources of energy become more economically attractive and possibly can contribute to the reduction of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. For various reasons, it is becoming more desirable to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels, rising prices being just one. Yes, H2 is an energy sink, but what are the alternatives? The attraction of fossil fuels has always been that the energy costs of extraction have always been less than the energy obtained from the resultant fuel but, except for nuclear and solar, there aren't any other readily available energy sources. Even though Ford suggested using nuclear-powered cars back in the 50's (what were they thinking?), I don't think that is going to happen (how's that for an insightful prediction?) There are some interesting options with solar, either directly or indirectly (e.g. cellulose), but they are obviously also a long ways away. It will be an interesting couple of decades ahead of us. I hope I last long enough to see the outcome. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 09:43:54 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:43:55 EDT Subject: [Tigers] grounding theory Both the temperature sending unit and the starter solenoid are shown as being grounded. The question is how well do they have to be grounded:-) Will using teflon tape on the threads of the sending unit allow the thread to cut through and still ground the unit? I wasn't especially careful in scratching away paint at the base of the solenoid to ensure good contact nor was I careful in being sure that the washer on the bolt was making good contact with bare metal to attach the solenoid. How well does this thing have to be grounded? I guess I am used to a picky electrical inspector that insisted that the paint be scraped down to the bare metal and the metal threaded to ensure a good ground. Mark **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 09:55:37 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: CoolVT@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:55:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] grounding theory i guess if you can start the car its grounded ok. :) i actually have a ground wire on mine though. On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 4:43 PM, wrote: > Both the temperature sending unit and the starter solenoid are shown as > being grounded. The question is how well do they have to be grounded:-) Will > using teflon tape on the threads of the sending unit allow the thread to cut > through and still ground the unit? > I wasn't especially careful in scratching away paint at the base of the > solenoid to ensure good contact nor was I careful in being sure that the washer > on the bolt was making good contact with bare metal to attach the solenoid. > How well does this thing have to be grounded? > I guess I am used to a picky electrical inspector that insisted that the > paint be scraped down to the bare metal and the metal threaded to ensure a good > ground. > Mark > > > > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 09:59:23 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:59:13 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] grounding theory You can check the sending unit's ground with an ohm meter. Put one lead on the intake manifold and the other on the sending unit itself, it should read under 1 ohm. The starter solenoid requires more current (probably a couple of amps) and so it's proportionally more important to get a good ground there. You should still be able to measure with an ohm meter but you'll have to be more careful about the 'zero' setting on the ohm meter. Short the two ohm meter leads together and (on a digital meter) take note of the reading, then move the leads to the solenoid base and to a bare part of the chassis or another good ground connection, and note the reading. It should be no more than 0.1 ohm higher than the shorted reading. On an analog meter you can adjust the zero setting, so you first short the leads and set the meter to read zero, then test the connection you want to measure. The most critical chassis connections are the one from the ground strap to the battery, and the one from the transmission tunnel to the engine block or transmission case. Those have to be low enough resistance that you can't even measure them with a standard ohm meter, and it's imperative that you clean down to bare metal on the chassis. If you're connecting into a threaded nut plate on the chassis then it's probably okay to just chase the threads with a tap and make sure it's bright and clean before screwing a bolt into it, but it would be better to also take the paint off the sheetmetal and give some insurance. You can top coat it with touch up paint or anti-seize compound for corrosion protection. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of CoolVT@aol.com Sent: June 16, 2008 9:44 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] grounding theory Both the temperature sending unit and the starter solenoid are shown as being grounded. The question is how well do they have to be grounded:-) Will using teflon tape on the threads of the sending unit allow the thread to cut through and still ground the unit? I wasn't especially careful in scratching away paint at the base of the solenoid to ensure good contact nor was I careful in being sure that the washer on the bolt was making good contact with bare metal to attach the solenoid. How well does this thing have to be grounded? I guess I am used to a picky electrical inspector that insisted that the paint be scraped down to the bare metal and the metal threaded to ensure a good ground. Mark **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 10:44:44 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:43:52 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) ----- Yes, H2 is an energy sink, but what are the alternatives? ------ This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and that goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is backwards. It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrichisms -- Bill -- Well, I am sure there will be accidents with hydrogen, if and when it ever comes to be used to power autos. On the other hand, we also have accidents occasionally with gasoline. It is one of the reasons why sailboats started to use diesel engines for auxiliary power instead of the old atomic 4's. Nevertheless, although H2 has a long way to go to become a viable source of power, due to technical issues as well as distribution, it is, IMHO, worth considering, if for no other reason than being able to save the diminishing supply of gasoline for things for which there is no substitute, such as old sports cars. If gasoline prices continue to rise, other sources of energy become more economically attractive and possibly can contribute to the reduction of carbon emissions into the atmosphere. For various reasons, it is becoming more desirable to reduce our consumption of fossil fuels, rising prices being just one. Yes, H2 is an energy sink, but what are the alternatives? The attraction of fossil fuels has always been that the energy costs of extraction have always been less than the energy obtained from the resultant fuel but, except for nuclear and solar, there aren't any other readily available energy sources. Even though Ford suggested using nuclear-powered cars back in the 50's (what were they thinking?), I don't think that is going to happen (how's that for an insightful prediction?) There are some interesting options with solar, either directly or indirectly (e.g. cellulose), but they are obviously also a long ways away. It will be an interesting couple of decades ahead of us. I hope I last long enough to see the outcome. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 10:57:19 2008 From: Howard gentry To: drmayf@mayfco.com, tiger list Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Alloy Heads... greetings,      Again, It is my experience that the replacement of the iron head with the alloy head will yeild Much more streetability to a road machine..and..I wonder why all racing machines use them..That about sums up All of the uses i can think of. Howard The Blues is the only music Original to the United States of America. --- On Mon, 6/16/08, drmayf <drmayf@mayfco.com> wrote: From: drmayf <drmayf@mayfco.com> Subject: [Tigers] Alloy Heads... To: "tigers@autox.team.net" <tigers@autox.team.net> Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 9:45 AM With regards to alloyheads for our cars, I asked a good friend, way up in Mystic, Conn, what he thought about them. No his credentials are pretty good as you can see in the edited reply he sen tto me....is it of any importance? I dunno.. here is his reply to my question about the use of alloy heads on daily driver moderately hopped up motors. "Been working seemingly day and night LOL success is vastly over rated..LOL.. The alloy heads are a tough call and it depends on the final goals. The interesting thing is a good flowing head will allow the use of a camshaft with less duration and overlap all good for mileage and drivability.. Being alloy they seem less efficient thermally so not good for mileage yet all engines are using alloy heads so probably less important than it seems. Iron heads are more prone to cracking or failure under changes in temperature. We used to crack them on shut down in the Winston Cup days. Removing weight is always a plus for mileage and if it is high off the ground good to remove it for handling issues, though I doubt if 20 lbs makes much of a difference on a passenger car going legal speed limits. Using the track as a dyno is a very bad idea as it is subjective rather than objective. You are a science guy and am sure well aware of all that is involved in proper testing and removing opinion from the results. . I am in the middle of doing 2 motorcycles for Bonneville, 2 Nissan GTP cars and a Riley Scott ford WSC car.. a Formula Holden, a Cosworth DFV for a formula 3000 car and a bunch of of other nagging small projects.. So more than a little busy and the reason for being a little scarce.. Dave" Dave owns and runs an Engine Management Service company for high end race mosheens. He builds and tunes these cars and bkes as well as doing a lot of hand made intake manifold systems for race cars. When iwant an opinion on someting I am doing he alwasy has an opinion, lol. He is a good guy for me.. mayf You are subscribed as zymmer4@yahoo.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 11:24:11 2008 From: Rollright@aol.com To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:24:23 EDT Subject: [Tigers] Subject: Cross-members Hello, Been a little frightened of late as I haven't ever had my cross-member out. I want very much to do all I can to do the Fulcrum pin fixes and the like. Sandblast the thing, check for cracks, and all. But, to do it in season would be, well, using up precious New England warm weather drive time. Here is the question: can you use an Alpine cross-member, and if different from a Tiger, do what mods need be done (and of course have the clear benefit of time)? Seems they must be darned similar.....or what? And, are they easy to find? I'd imagine if different from a Tiger, Tiger cross-members would be hen's teeth, but maybe Alpine ones aren't. Best regards, Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 11:39:34 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:40:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Subject: Cross-members Jim, There is a significant difference between the two crossmembers. The most prominent being the scallop cut at the front and the mounts for the steering rack (the Alpine used a steering box). I hope you can balance the fun of Summer and the desire to go through the front end. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:24 AM Subject: [Tigers] Subject: Cross-members > Hello, > > Been a little frightened of late as I haven't ever had my cross-member > out. > I want very much to do all I can to do the Fulcrum pin fixes and the like. > Sandblast the thing, check for cracks, and all. > > But, to do it in season would be, well, using up precious New England > warm > weather drive time. > > Here is the question: can you use an Alpine cross-member, and if different > from a Tiger, do what mods need be done (and of course have the clear > benefit > of time)? Seems they must be darned similar.....or what? > > And, are they easy to find? I'd imagine if different from a Tiger, Tiger > cross-members would be hen's teeth, but maybe Alpine ones aren't. > > Best regards, > > Jim Armstrong > Mk 1A 382002083 > LRXFE > > > > **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best > 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as atwittsend@verizon.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 11:42:05 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: CoolVT@aol.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] grounding theory Get an ohm meter and check it out, hit the intake manifold and the senders ground, should tell all. I think most of the systems are pretty tollerent, but I'll bet your ground is better then you think. I have a substantial grounding strap to block (bell housing bolt) from the chassis and to the battery as I have always worried as well. But I think that when you look at what it might be in the grand tollerance of the system it will not be off that much. And cleaner connections are always better but sometimes difficult to have. If your teflon tape is really insulating the sender you will find out as your gauge won't work all that well depending on the sender type will read cold or hot right off the bat due to the high resistance of the bad connection (High ohm's). Sandy ----- Original Message ---- From: "CoolVT@aol.com" To: tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 8:43:55 AM Subject: [Tigers] grounding theory Both the temperature sending unit and the starter solenoid are shown as being grounded. The question is how well do they have to be grounded:-) Will using teflon tape on the threads of the sending unit allow the thread to cut through and still ground the unit? I wasn't especially careful in scratching away paint at the base of the solenoid to ensure good contact nor was I careful in being sure that the washer on the bolt was making good contact with bare metal to attach the solenoid. How well does this thing have to be grounded? I guess I am used to a picky electrical inspector that insisted that the paint be scraped down to the bare metal and the metal threaded to ensure a good ground. Mark **************Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg00050000000102) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as sganz@pacbell.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 11:45:58 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net, "William Lau" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:46:09 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) "This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and that goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is backwards. It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrichisms -- Bill --" Bill: I would agree that it does not make sense from the standpoint of energy, and that was sort of my point, too. However, we are now in the situation of having all of our eggs in one basket and there are good reasons not to remain in that situation. Do we ignore the problem and continue to use gasoline, thus making us more and more dependent on the sources of the same and probably continuing to drive up the price, or can we diversify our energy sources in such a way as to preserve the supply of gasoline for a longer period of time and, perhaps, even have a positive effect on the environment? All I am saying is that all the possibilities should be investigated, thus allowing us some flexibility in our choices rather than just continuing on the path we are on while ignoring reality. I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are entirely stupid, so they must envision a scenario in which H2 can play a role. Let's give a little credit for their willingness to try the experiment. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 11:59:47 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: CoolVT@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:59:41 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] grounding theory Mark, I have always been fond of sharp edged star washers in places where assured grounding is important. Of course they do have to penetrate the paint to make a good ground. Everything has it's pluses and minuses, but a clear coat over the washer/nut can reduce rusting. Luck, Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com CoolVT@aol.com wrote: > Both the temperature sending unit and the starter solenoid are shown as > being grounded. The question is how well do they have to be grounded:-) Will > using teflon tape on the threads of the sending unit allow the thread to cut > through and still ground the unit? > I wasn't especially careful in scratching away paint at the base of the > solenoid to ensure good contact nor was I careful in being sure that the washer > on the bolt was making good contact with bare metal to attach the solenoid. > How well does this thing have to be grounded? > I guess I am used to a picky electrical inspector that insisted that the > paint be scraped down to the bare metal and the metal threaded to ensure a good > ground. > Mark _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 12:49:29 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Tod Brown Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:49:33 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] "A Modest Proposal" Tod, Bill, and Tigers, A scenario for the future. 1. Alternate energy sources will become mandatory on new cars to "conserve" petroleum. 2. As fewer vehicle use gasoline, the costs will increase from lack of demand and still high costs for manufacture of gasoline. Just the opposite of the "law of supply and demand" as profit margins must still be maintained. 3. State & Federal laws will subsequently add many more taxes on petroleum manufacture and use. 4. Soon local and federal laws will un-license older cars to enhance the proportion of "environmentally friendly" alternatives. (which take more energy than they save) 5. YOUR cars will be un-licensed for the road, and will either be in museums or scrap heaps. To top it all off, the mandatory reductions in CO2 will kill off the forests trees , corn and wheat yields which breathe the CO2 and emit the noxious gas Oxygen. Those living creatures that breathe oxygen will be severely reduced, and impoverished from lack of food. Well, that's my $0.02 worth (current value $2.57). :-( Steve A "modest proposal" per Jonathan Swift: "Save the World, Eliminate Greenies" ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Tod Brown wrote: > "This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it > makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the > hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and that > goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to > process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is backwards. > It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrichisms -- Bill --" > > Bill: > > I would agree that it does not make sense from the standpoint of energy, and > that was sort of my point, too. However, we are now in the situation of having > all of our eggs in one basket and there are good reasons not to remain in that > situation. Do we ignore the problem and continue to use gasoline, thus making > us more and more dependent on the sources of the same and probably continuing > to drive up the price, or can we diversify our energy sources in such a way as to preserve the supply of gasoline for a longer period of time and, perhaps, > even have a positive effect on the environment? All I am saying is that all the possibilities should be investigated, thus allowing us some flexibility in our choices rather than just continuing on the path we are on while ignoring reality. I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are entirely stupid, so they must envision a scenario in which H2 can play a role. Let's give a little credit for their willingness to try the experiment. > > Tod > B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 13:29:59 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:29:23 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) You are correct, it is not a smart thing to do from an energy balance point of view...today. However, if you had a large amount of cheap and clean electrical power from solar, wind or..dare I say...nuclear to convert, process and compress hydrogen, then using H2 as an energy transfer medium makes sense. When someone comes up with fusion power, we should be OK, there's enough deuterium in the oceans to last a few million years or so. In the mean time, I vote to put the Navy in charge of power generation in this country, a few A4W's scattered around the country would solve most of these energy woes. Their safety record since the first nuke boat, the 1954 USS Nautilus, has been impeccable. What of the waste, you ask? Recycle it, then send the residual into space (or maybe Pahrump) :>). Bugz - an old Navy nuke guy who has had the honor of being personally chastised by Adm. Rickover...and survived. -----Original Message----- From: On Behalf Of Tod Brown Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 1:46 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net; William Lau Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) "This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and that goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is backwards. It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrichisms -- Bill --" _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 13:48:00 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:47:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) As long as it takes oil to process whatever is done and it takes more oil energy than is gained by the process, it is foolish. The only energy source that is viable at this time is nuclear and that effort has been put back 40 years by people that insist that something like hydrogen, alcohol and methane will work because nuclear is too dangerous. Running out of fuel and giving the Middle East enough money to be a viable threat is also dangerous. Refusing to drill for oil off our coasts while Cuba and China do it is another ridiculous practice. Not drilling in Anwr, senseless. Just because GM or BMW do things for PC publicity, doesn't make it viable. There aren't enough "goodies" in a gas tank size container of hydrogen for it to ever be practical not to mention the difficulty in containing it. -- Bill -- Bill: I would agree that it does not make sense from the standpoint of energy, and that was sort of my point, too. However, we are now in the situation of having all of our eggs in one basket and there are good reasons not to remain in that situation. Do we ignore the problem and continue to use gasoline, thus making us more and more dependent on the sources of the same and probably continuing to drive up the price, or can we diversify our energy sources in such a way as to preserve the supply of gasoline for a longer period of time and, perhaps, even have a positive effect on the environment? All I am saying is that all the possibilities should be investigated, thus allowing us some flexibility in our choices rather than just continuing on the path we are on while ignoring reality. I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are entirely stupid, so they must envision a scenario in which H2 can play a role. Let's give a little credit for their willingness to try the experiment. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 14:13:51 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) I don't understand why the neclear option doesn't surface more often in the energy dialog. Technology has come a long long way since the last Nuc plant design and I don't hear a bunch of issues about the existing plants. I'm also excited by the potential of Algea based bio-deisel fuel. That seems extremely promising. - Stephen Waybright --- On Mon, 6/16/08, Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd) wrote: > From: Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd) > Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) > To: tigers@autox.team.net > Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 3:29 PM > You are correct, it is not a smart thing to do from an > energy balance > point of view...today. However, if you had a large amount > of cheap and > clean electrical power from solar, wind or..dare I > say...nuclear to > convert, process and compress hydrogen, then using H2 as an > energy > transfer medium makes sense. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 14:16:55 2008 From: "Chris and Jodie" To: "Tod Brown" , , Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:17:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) Just go watch 'Who killed the Electric Car". They've got 50,00 gas stations and they aren't going to let that business model die with electric cars. Chris http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/004825.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsJAlrYjGz8 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F http://www.whokilledtheelectriccar.com/ http://www.sonyclassics.com/whokilledtheelectriccar/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tod Brown" To: ; "William Lau" Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 10:46 AM Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) > "This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it > makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the > hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and > that > goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to > process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is > backwards. > It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrichisms -- Bill --" > > Bill: > > I would agree that it does not make sense from the standpoint of energy, > and > that was sort of my point, too. However, we are now in the situation of > having > all of our eggs in one basket and there are good reasons not to remain in > that > situation. Do we ignore the problem and continue to use gasoline, thus > making > us more and more dependent on the sources of the same and probably > continuing > to drive up the price, or can we diversify our energy sources in such a > way as to preserve the supply of gasoline for a longer period of time and, > perhaps, > even have a positive effect on the environment? All I am saying is that > all the possibilities should be investigated, thus allowing us some > flexibility in our choices rather than just continuing on the path we are > on while ignoring reality. I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are > entirely stupid, so they must envision a scenario in which H2 can play a > role. Let's give a little credit for their willingness to try the > experiment. > > Tod > B382002384LRXFE > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cjcoffel@sonic.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus > signature database 3050 (20080423) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 14:45:31 2008 From: "Chris and Jodie" To: "michael king" , "tigers_United_forum" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:45:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Wine Country Classic I haven't looked through my pictures yet. I didn't bring the video camera. My friend got some great shots with his professional set up. Here's his site. http://russell.zenfolio.com/p982262950/ I went to this event and had the only Tiger. Showed it to Tony in Rohnert Park who just bought his neighbors Tiger for 3k. http://www.americangraffiti.net/ Went to this event and brought two of my Tigers. Did the parade, and great to hear so many people say "Tiger" as you go by. Tony from Cloverdale showed up with the Funbeam so we had three Tigers. Great event. http://www.peggysuescruise.com/ The Funbeam won a trophy last year but not this year. My buddy won first in his class. His car drives people nuts. Just look at the pictures and you can see why. http://dons.zenfolio.com/p694946011/ Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael king" To: "tigers_United_forum" Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 11:17 PM Subject: [Tigers] Wine Country Classic >I was looking through the recent pics/reports on the wine country classic > meet at the infeon raceway. They had lots of tigers listed, but all but 2 > were DNS or DNF. The Tom Sakai car seeming to be the flag flyer.. however > in > this video go to 2:22 and you will see either practice or the race and the > ex-SCF Tiger, yellow (ex shelby?) sakai tiger, fraser onester tiger and a > red tiger with white HT running. I see the HSC Tiger was listed as a DNS > and > does not appear. > > Has anyone got recent photos or reports on this? Why is the Tiger > community > so lazzy in getting pics and videos of the cars racing up on onthe web? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSpqCvHbnxg&feature=related > > -- > Regards > > Michael King > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cjcoffel@sonic.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 16:43:13 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:43:06 EDT Subject: [Tigers] Interesting-Non Tiger We'll probably never see this in the US. _http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189_ (http://info.detnews.com/video/index.cfm?id=1189) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:08:48 2008 From: drmayf To: gswaybright@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:08:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) Folks, the demands on nuclear saftey are still paramount. While accidents are few and far between, when they happen they can be really bad. So stewardship of safety cannot be surrendered to technological advances. Yet, it does not need to take 10 years for a design review or environmental impact statement either. One of the main issues is what to do with the waste by streams. Yeah, there is tryin to be a Yucca Mt here ont he weapons range. But that was for 77000 metric tonnes of junk and that did not include the power reactor stuff. All of those water storage pools are being filled up and when full, then what? And of course in today's environment, the storage facility must be secure to keep the bad guys from obtaining the junk for dirty bombs. In a sane world that would not be an issue, but today is not sane... So nuclear has some issues still to overcome. Fusion may or may not make it to power production. And it is not a non waste producer, lol... Power comes from all those nuetrons being slowed down toheat water nd those do indeed cause some radioactivity to be imparted. Just not as severe as fission. Please note also the Sandia Labs in Albequerque have actually gotten cold fusion to work, at least to the point of finding helkium by products produced from fusion reactions. So maybe somethin will eventually come thrpugh that portal. But what we gonna do tomorrow? we will use alternative fuels that can be run in our existing vehicles. Bio diesel, alcohol, natural gass, and maybe some electrical systems will be used all in suppor tof each other. I don't think the use of petroleum will ever get to the op[oint where the gov say we cannot use it, it will just get so expensive that the common man cannot afford it. It will still be available for special needs just at a high price. mayf Stephen Waybright wrote: >I don't understand why the neclear option doesn't surface more often in the energy dialog. Technology has come a long long way since the last Nuc plant design and I don't hear a bunch of issues about the existing plants. > >I'm also excited by the potential of Algea based bio-deisel fuel. That seems extremely promising. > >- Stephen Waybright > >--- On Mon, 6/16/08, Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd) wrote: > > > >>From: Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd) >>Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) >>To: tigers@autox.team.net >>Date: Monday, June 16, 2008, 3:29 PM >>You are correct, it is not a smart thing to do from an >>energy balance >>point of view...today. However, if you had a large amount >>of cheap and >>clean electrical power from solar, wind or..dare I >>say...nuclear to >>convert, process and compress hydrogen, then using H2 as an >>energy >>transfer medium makes sense. >> >> >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as drmayf@mayfco.com > >Tigers@autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > >http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:17:44 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: , Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:17:50 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) We could all use this as an excuse to buy a Tesla. Slap a few solar panels on the roof of the garage and drive for free. Tell the bride it's all in the name of saving money and preserving the environment. You know if it were only 75,000........ Scott Hutchinson Director of Operations Netjets Large Aircraft Office 860.292.1191 Mobile 843.290.2805 * ******** This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:26:43 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: Carmods@aol.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:26:48 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Then why does alu. produce more HP with the same radiator system...duh, (We have several heat dissipating coating that when applied to iron heads also allow you to run higher compression with iron heads) because you can run higher compression ratios with pump gas because of more efficient heat transfer. Nothing magic about alum! So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it! To be exact, with the configuration of this engine we can run pump gas and extract 50 +HP per each one point of compression. If you watch drag boats, tractor pulls and drag racing you can see some of my builders motors, some producing 1300Hp per cylinder. Check his references, Gurney, Foyt, Shelby, Dan Olson and several dozen more. I'll put our technical info at Caps Bright Hot Coatings and 60 years of experience in developing Ford high performance up against faulty reasoning anytime. Want to play? Get your pink slip out? Don't mean this to sound rude, it's not meant to be any different from the tone set in your e-mail. ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:26:59 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: Carmods@aol.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:27:09 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries So ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:37:42 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: drmayf@mayfco.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:37:54 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Good comments. I can supply phone numbers so you can talk to Mr. Begosian. Dr. were not talking, in this case about high tech (which you are well qualified), were talking bolt on magic alum heads getting a 300% increase in HP with no cost, no rise in compression ratio...... LOL. The plain truth is a decrease in heat transfer rates of alum from the combustion chamber reduces the effect compression ratio that can be run with pump gas (91 octane or less) without destructive detonation. Sean ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:49:11 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: shutchin@netjets.com, SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com, twojohnsons@cox.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:49:21 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Essentially correct. Too everyone, for the last time I, AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THE DOWNSIDE OF ALUM HEADS BUT THE DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS OF PAINTING AND POLISHING ALUM HEADS. If you are running higher compression ratios you need Alum heads and any degradation to heat transfer effects the performance and durability of an alum headed engine! In some cases the increase in retained heat can cause failure due to heat retained and lose of Hp. We have a tell all in our Cermakrome line that causes the coated header to go dull and gray at sustained heat exceeding 1350 degrees F (melting point of the alum used in the cermaic/metallic coating). If it's dull and gray the engine is running super rich or very lean...all effecting performance of the product. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:49:55 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com, drmayf@mayfco.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:50:06 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Got that right Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:51:01 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: drmayf@mayfco.com, SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:51:07 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries I'll try, times an enemy right now. Sean ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 17:54:04 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: mark.rense@ge.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:54:14 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries With higher compression ratio this does become an issue. Also the type of paint used does matter. Plain black spray paint is not used on radiators because it does not work, radiator paint is a special product as is the paint you refer to in your examples. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:01:27 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: twojohnsons@cox.net, SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:02:16 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? At ratios approaching 10.5 to 1 and the marginal nature of the Tiger cooling system it can be a factor. If you spend 3 times as much for alum heads, why negate or downgrade their primary advantage? Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:01:43 2008 From: "michael king" To: twojohnsons@cox.net, SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:01:59 +1000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Sorry to go slightly sideways on this.. Ok.. I am not going to polish my alloy heads and never intended to... but is it a bad thing to polish the intake, this is something i was thinking about doing.' -- Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:04:26 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:03:39 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) I'm with you. If the French can do it, we can do it easily. Use coal and nuclear to make electricity for electric cars to work in the city. Eventually they will get good enough to go long distances. Meanwhile, drill for our own oil. -- Bill -- I don't understand why the neclear option doesn't surface more often in the energy dialog. Technology has come a long long way since the last Nuc plant design and I don't hear a bunch of issues about the existing plants. I'm also excited by the potential of Algea based bio-deisel fuel. That seems extremely promising. - Stephen Waybright _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:04:46 2008 From: drmayf To: Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:04:25 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries yep, alloy reduces the thermal efficiency. And as you say less heat means a lower air pressure in the chamber. Now, you cangain some significant hp by switching from iron to aluminum but without a zillion other mods, the hp will never be significantly high. Ie as youknow, you gotta have the bottom end parts, the rods, pistons, cam, valve trail etc to have a good reliable high power motor. I think reliablity is an inverse square law lol...seems to be for me any way. I now finally have the rce car off the jack stands ready to move outside for some more salt wash down then wasing with a salt killer. Then some primer paint ans some wax... then I can fire it up. Yeah! Maybe by next week. My orange tiger is still in pieces. Have all parts tostart reassembly except the hardtop shell. That should be available Weds. The House of Kolors Shimmerin Sunset Orange pearl paint is very nice. I also purchases dome merkur wheels from Brent edinger and had them repainted in the color he had them but added a small pin stripe around the rim in a flat orange paint as well. They are going to look awesome!. I am considering having my Tiger valve covers powder coated in a similar orange scheme as well. Right now, I have to cut the grass, lol... when the new lawn mower arrives... I have killed the yardman once again. Motor is fine dbut the drive system is kaput. Even with a new belt.... more on the saga of the cars later... Should any of you who are returning from TU pass within shouting distance, please drop in!. Shop is a mess but I like company and the beer is cold... mayf Drmoonstone@aol.com wrote: > Good comments. I can supply phone numbers so you can talk to Mr. > Begosian. Dr. were not talking, in this case about high tech (which > you are well qualified), were talking bolt on magic alum heads getting > a 300% increase in HP with no cost, no rise in compression ratio...... > LOL. The plain truth is a decrease in heat transfer rates of alum from > the combustion chamber reduces the effect compression ratio that can > be run with pump gas (91 octane or less) without destructive detonation. > > Sean > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used > cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:10:35 2008 From: drmayf To: Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:10:51 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Yep, again. Shouldn't paint the alloy heads. Unless it is with a special paint designed to do the job. And the coating probably would need to be very thin. Ditto for polishing. Smooth shiney surfaces do not have the surface area for proper conduction and convection. On high compression motors, then the heads may mean the difference between working reliably and not working well at any efficiency. Detonation is likely to result with high compression reworked iron heads. The you have to run high octane fuel and dial back the timing to prevent it.. Sean, what is gonna happen to the black turbo headers? Anything for me to be on the lookout for? Folks, Sean, and his brother in law, coated my headers for the race beamer and they look wonderful. Trust what Sean tells you in this regards. They do great work! mayf Drmoonstone@aol.com wrote: >Essentially correct. Too everyone, for the last time I, AM NOT TALKING ABOUT >THE DOWNSIDE OF ALUM HEADS BUT THE DETRIMENTAL EFFECTS OF PAINTING AND >POLISHING ALUM HEADS. If you are running higher compression ratios you need Alum >heads and any degradation to heat transfer effects the performance and durability >of an alum headed engine! In some cases the increase in retained heat can >cause failure due to heat retained and lose of Hp. > >We have a tell all in our Cermakrome line that causes the coated header to go >dull and gray at sustained heat exceeding 1350 degrees F (melting point of >the alum used in the cermaic/metallic coating). If it's dull and gray the engine >is running super rich or very lean...all effecting performance of the >product. > >Moonstone _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:10:46 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: michael.s.king@gmail.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:11:33 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? A coating of mcs on the under side of the manifold will reduce air/fuel mixture temp. So polish the top, coat the bottom. Sideline here, if heat tranfer is not a significant issue then why the Air Gap manfolds. Heat transfer goes both ways. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:11:39 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: , Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:11:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries The only inverse law is the performance/fun to bank account balance law. Works for pretty much everything. Scott Hutchinson Director of Operations Netjets Large Aircraft Office 860.292.1191 Mobile 843.290.2805 * ******** This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:15:19 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: drmayf@mayfco.com, Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:16:11 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? No problem in this case the black is just as efficent as the other "colors" and retain the same advantages. Sean the "deck ape" ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:17:05 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: shutchin@netjets.com, drmayf@mayfco.com, Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:17:59 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries So true, cubic inches or cubic bucks...either way bucks are the limiting factor for most. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:28:42 2008 From: drmayf To: Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:29:03 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] engine ancillaries Drmoonstone@aol.com wrote: > So true, cubic inches or cubic bucks...either way bucks are the > limiting factor for most. > > Moonstone > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used > cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) yup, remember the old adage? Speed costs, how fast you wanna go? mayf _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:29:47 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net, Stephen Waybright Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:30:04 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nuclear Energy Interest Stephen: Listen to this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12801015 Using nuclear to generate electricity which then, in turn, can be used to produce hydrogen or charge batteries is a way of avoiding the use of fossil fuels for transportation. Yeah, I know it is expensive and that there is a conspiracy against it and that there is the waste issue, but someone IS paying attention. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:30:38 2008 From: "Bill Rogers Motorsport Memories" To: "Tigers" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:30:50 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Cooling - Thinking outside the Box We have discussed cooling ad nauseum on these pages, Tigers United, club pages and in shop notes and newsletters everywhere. The solutions are usually better water pumps, better radiators, blocking the horn holes and under the rad, auxilliary fans etc., all items associated with the water cooling system. Here are some other ideas that come to mind that may or may not have been discussed before. My car has the rectangular bodywork opening in front of the radiator cut down at the bottom by about 1" so that little of the radiator face is blocked - a looks like a crude 1960's mod. or is that stock Tiger? Oil cools the engine too, so a windage tray and a larger (7 Qt) oil pan with cooling fins would help too. Those of you with interest in the works rally cars may have Marcus Chambers' book "Works Wonders", and the wonderful new Graham Rood book "The Works Tigers". In both of those books Des O'Dell is quoted as fixing the Tiger cooling problems by "taking a pipe from the header tank to the bottom hose" similar to Aston Martin and Mercedes. Has anyone tried this? The other obvious item you can see from the works cars are the holes in the side of the fenders to exhaust hot air from the engine bay and encourage proper flow through the radiator. Not many of us want to do this, so less well known was the practice of propping the hood open a little at the rear. They did this by adding some hard foam blocks in front of the driver and co-driver at the rear of the hood land with gaps at the center and at the edges. I suspect this was to avoid spraying the windshield with oil and coolant. They used external latches to hold it down but hood pins would work or perhaps even a longer "stock" bonnet latch pin for those averse to cutting holes. Bill Rogers B9472703 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:51:19 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: michael king Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:51:31 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Aluminum Heads--a downside? Michael, Now this I have done, with my 1952 MG-TD, in 1952. There was a shop in Hollywood called "Racer Ray Brown", back then, who not only made seat belts for cars, but did head work as well. He eliminated the cast post between intake pairs, and had the head bolt in those two places accessible through the port by removing the intake manifold. He installed larger Mk II valves, polished the intake ports, matched the intake and exhaust manifolds to the ports, and "tuned" the engine. The only way to quantify the results is to go from the middle of the pack to best time of day at the drag strips. I believe that was 72.4 MPH. Near top speed! :-) And they weren't even alloy. Yes, we did have chassis dyno's in the day, but I was a student and the costs were just too much ($50). The new car was only $1350, new. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com michael king wrote: > Sorry to go slightly sideways on this.. > > Ok.. I am not going to polish my alloy heads and never intended to... but is > it a bad thing to polish the intake, this is something i was thinking about > doing.' _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 18:54:26 2008 From: Jeffrey Nichols To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Tigers] Doane's Horses "So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it!" I read somewhere that Doane Spencer got 349 HP from his 260 cu in engine installed in the HSC racer. Just think what he could get using modern heads, cam, manifold, distributor, etc. Maybe 400 HP or more? Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 19:34:31 2008 From: Tom Hall To: Tod Brown Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:34:51 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nuclear Energy Interest At 05:30 PM 6/16/2008, you wrote: >http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12801015 > >Using nuclear to generate electricity which then, in turn, can be used >to produce hydrogen or charge batteries is a way of avoiding the use of >fossil fuels for transportation. Yeah, I know it is expensive and that >there is a conspiracy against it and that there is the waste issue, but >someone IS paying attention. >Tod Once upon a time, in my former life, I was a Nuke Engineer with GE. Some of the work I was involved with pertained to a process know as Plutonium Recycle. This was a process that disassembled spent (used) nuclear fuel bundles and reclaimed the remaining fissile uranium and the plutonium that was created during the period the fuel was in the power reactor making steam and eventually electricity. This process was well beyond theory and plants were designed and built to accomplish this task. The process reduced the volume of the high level nuclear waste and as a byproduct, was able to separate out the reusable nuclear fuel known as mixed oxide, uranium and plutonium. It was especially fortuitous because the energy in the recovered fuel had more energy remaining than the original fuel it was recovered from, a net gain in available energy. Alas, the people of the US of A elected a Peanut Farmer, ex-Nuclear Navy Engineer to be President. He was staunchly against this Program basing his decisions on the "potential" risk of the dreaded Plutonium. So the whole US commercial industry and DOE research plans were shelved and essentially forgotten. Only France went ahead with significant research on this and high level radioactive waste processing. The nuclear business environment was so toxic from my perspective that I walked away from the industry mid career and opened my own non nuclear business. Tom Hall ModTiger Engineering LLC www.tigerengineering.net _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 19:48:42 2008 From: Steve Sage To: Tom Hall Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:49:02 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nuclear Energy Interest Tom Hall wrote: > Once upon a time, in my former life, I was a Nuke Engineer....... > Tom: I'd better never disagree with anything you ever say! I don't want you nuking my Tiger! Steve Sage E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10050e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Mon Jun 16 20:49:56 2008 From: rab65tiger@aol.com To: Tigers@autox.team.net Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:50:07 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] aluminum heads My reading indicates cast iron heads may be superior for performance, IF flow numbers are the same, and some real world factors like hardened valve seats for unleaded gas are included, higher octane gas, the cast iron may be superior to aluminum heads.? The recent explosion of available aluminum heads with newer designs, typically out flow stock vintage cast iron heads, and the included hardened valve seats are a bonus.? The cost of port and polish and adding hardened valve seats to cast iron heads, combined with some weight savings, and maybe the possibility of running a little more compression without race gas seems to make aluminum heads an easy and cost effective solution. The after market is probably swamped with aluminum heads do to a lower cost to design, manufacture and machine compared to cast iron.? One caveat on Tigers, many aluminum heads are dimensionally different than OEM castings, making firewall clearance and header/ exhaust interface a concern.? Some aluminum heads utilize stock dimensions and exhaust port locations, some alter these dimensions.? Some headers offer different size tubes, that may align better with the exhaust ports on non stock heads. Randie _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 07:01:04 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:03:08 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) mrlau@charter.net writes: This is like saying something is stupid but let's do it anyway 'cause it makes us feel like we are doing something good. It takes oil to cram the hydrogen in the bottle and it takes oil to process it to begin with and that goes for just about all of the "new ideas". It even takes more oil to process and deliver than it replaces. More than zero gain, it is backwards. It is just that no one wants to admit or face it. Ostrich isms -- Bill -- Right on Bill! **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 07:10:46 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "CoolVT@aol.com" , "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:08:57 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Interesting-Non Tiger Very interesting Mark....I didn't know that the focus and fusion were already built out of country...mexico and argentina? Never would have guessed. Very hi-tech plant, certainly a different approach to putting a car together, at least from several years ago. ....so the UAW doesn't support this " type of integration..." what does that mean? Somebody educate me.... Cullen "We'll probably never see this in the US." _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 07:10:56 2008 From: Carmods@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:13:01 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) todbrown@roadrunner.com writes: I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are entirely stupid, so they must envision a scenario in which H2 can play a role. Let's give a little credit for their willingness to try the experiment. When I was a youngster I lived near the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana. During a dry spell the Indians would do their rain dance for a week or so. It made them feel good, the rain gods felt good, and eventually it rained. One good thing though, it didn't cost the rest of us anything. John Logan **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 07:38:36 2008 From: Tod Brown To: tigers@autox.team.net, Carmods@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:38:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) John Logan writes: "When I was a youngster I lived near the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana. During a dry spell the Indians would do their rain dance for a week or so. It made them feel good, the rain gods felt good, and eventually it rained. One good thing though, it didn't cost the rest of us anything." Maybe the Crows were on to something! Closed minds rarely discover anything worthwhile. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 09:48:35 2008 From: To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:13:03 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Yes, I know it must get easier with experience and I know I am certainly the new kid around here so what right do I have to suggest any changes. BUT.... I have a hard time following some of these conversations. Either the same longish original message gets repeated over and over and the brief answer to it gets lost or sometimes (Drmoonstone) leaves it out completely and an answer appears that is fairly difficult (for me at least) to connect to a question. Either way you go it seems difficult. Has this group ever used a regular message board ? They are much easier to follow and your replies become instantly available for the public to read. Subjects stay seperate rather than being intermingled (heads, BMW, BMW, heads, heads, heads,Subway, etc) There is an existing Britishcarforum that I discovered that has a seperate Sunbeam forum that is rarely used by anyone. I have some experience with creating a discussion board on a non car topic that is really pretty cheap to do and can allow for picture files to be uploaded and displayed with posts. Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 10:02:18 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:02:20 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Hi Steve, There are other online Tiger communities, and quite a few people participate in more than one. Go visit www.teae.org and check out their online forum - it's basically what you're describing. I find that, while the bulletin-board style of forum preserves each topic in its own chronological space, it also requires you to individually page through all the subjects to catch up on what's going on, and if there's any significant traffic volume at all, that becomes a big time sink, and you may miss out on threads in subjects whose sub-forums you don't often visit. The mailing list operates in exactly the opposite way: Messages get pushed to you, and you see all the traffic. Some mail readers can do threading for you; they'll sort stuff by at least the subject, and if possible index by who replied to what. When tigersunited.com was first brought online, it also featured a bulletin board type forum, but it never attracted enough people to gain critical mass (most of the visitors to tu.com were already subscribers to this mailing list), and so it languished and was eventually mothballed. There was just no reason to create yet another parallel information exchange. Cheers, Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of sralsten@ca.rr.com Sent: June 17, 2008 10:13 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Yes, I know it must get easier with experience and I know I am certainly the new kid around here so what right do I have to suggest any changes. BUT.... I have a hard time following some of these conversations. Either the same longish original message gets repeated over and over and the brief answer to it gets lost or sometimes (Drmoonstone) leaves it out completely and an answer appears that is fairly difficult (for me at least) to connect to a question. Either way you go it seems difficult. Has this group ever used a regular message board ? They are much easier to follow and your replies become instantly available for the public to read. Subjects stay seperate rather than being intermingled (heads, BMW, BMW, heads, heads, heads,Subway, etc) There is an existing Britishcarforum that I discovered that has a seperate Sunbeam forum that is rarely used by anyone. I have some experience with creating a discussion board on a non car topic that is really pretty cheap to do and can allow for picture files to be uploaded and displayed with posts. Steve You are subscribed as theo.smit@dynastream.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 10:21:20 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Smit, Theo" , , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:21:28 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? My reply may have unintentionally come off a little negative on the BB type forums. I participate in at least three of them, including TEAE's, and I recognize the value they bring, and also that it's a lot of work for the admins. It's just unfortunate that you can't easily take either system (bulletin board and mailing list) and allow it to be presented in either format. You can set the bulletin board systems to notify you by email whenever a new message comes in, but the current implementations don't let you fire off a reply within the email application's context and have it posted appropriately. A 'new' thread couldn't be started within the email context unless you could somehow instruct the server in where that thread should be archived. You can search the mailing list thread archive through the team.net webserver, and it presents things in a threaded form: http://www.team.net/mharc/archives/html/tigers/. You can click through the email address hyperlinks and it will fire up your email application, but it doesn't include the subject line... That could be a cool addition to the archive searching functionality but it's (again) extra work for the admins and other volunteers to provide it. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Smit, Theo Sent: June 17, 2008 10:02 AM To: sralsten@ca.rr.com; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Hi Steve, There are other online Tiger communities, and quite a few people participate in more than one. Go visit www.teae.org and check out their online forum - it's basically what you're describing. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 10:39:03 2008 From: David Sosna To: Jeffrey Nichols Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:39:49 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Doane's Horses Hi Jeff: The following quote: "Could you tell the difference between a 260 and a 289 just by opening the hood and looking at the engine? Neither could the tech inspectors!" was attributed to Doane--I just wish I could remember where I saw it. Anyway, from what I gather, Doane was supposed to have swapped in a 289 in one of the racing cars (don't know if it was the HSC car) and nobody caught wise :-) Best Regards David Sosna Jeffrey Nichols wrote: > "So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it!" > > > I read somewhere that Doane Spencer got 349 HP from his 260 cu in engine installed in the HSC racer. Just think what he could get using modern heads, cam, manifold, distributor, etc. Maybe 400 HP or more? > > > Jeff > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as sosnaenergyconsulting@cox.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 10:55:41 2008 From: David Sosna To: 6pack List <6pack@autox.team.net> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:56:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Hi Steve: Actually, your point is well taken. After I read this e-mail (which logged in at 9:13 a.m.), Theo's first and second replies appeared simultaneously, logged in at 9:02 a.m. and 9:13 a.m. (??) Since I have my e-mails organized by date that can be confusing, since your initial e-mail is sandwiched in between his responses. Perhaps I'll try organizing by Subject instead, but Sean--I say this with the greatest of respect--I frequently do have a tough time figuring out what you're e-mailing about and would appreciate it if you'd include a snippet of whatever you're responding to. Best Regards David Sosna sralsten@ca.rr.com wrote: > Yes, I know it must get easier with experience and I know I am certainly the new kid around here so what right do I have to suggest any changes. BUT.... > I have a hard time following some of these conversations. Either the same longish original message gets repeated over and over and the brief answer to it gets lost or sometimes (Drmoonstone) leaves it out completely and an answer appears that is fairly difficult (for me at least) to connect to a question. Either way you go it seems difficult. > > > > Steve _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 13:07:30 2008 From: "Steinman, Bill" To: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:03:44 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? www.britishcarforum.com Very active for some marques -- especially Triumph -- but a bit light on Sunbeams, though this would be corrected if more of us started using. Bill S. 2005 Lotus Elise 1968 Triumph TR-250 1968 MGC Tourer 1966 Austin Healey 3000 Mk III 1965 Sunbeam Tiger 1959 Austin Healey 3000 Tedious but unavoidable disclaimer follows... NOTICE: This communication and its attachments have been sent to you from Powell Goldstein LLP and may contain privileged or other confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, or believe that you have received this communication in error, please do not print, copy, retransmit, disseminate, or otherwise use the information. If you are not the intended recipient appearing in the address lines of this communication, you should not rely upon it. Also, please indicate to the sender that you have received this communication in error, and delete the copy you received. IRS CIRCULAR 230 Disclosure: Under U.S. Treasury regulations, we are required to inform you that any tax advice contained in this e-mail or any attachment hereto is not intended to be used, and cannot be used, to avoid penalties imposed under the Internal Revenue Code. Thank you. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 13:23:56 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:22:18 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? That's funny....if we would start using it more...I don't know about everyone on the list, but I contribute occasionally, and read the witty banter that everyone else donates, all while " on the clock" at my work. Just like now I'm looking over my shoulder to see when my boss will check on my progress and fine me slacking away. If I had another outlet of a place to talk about cars of any make, surely I would lose my job. ;) 1452 www.britishcarforum.com Very active for some marques -- especially Triumph -- but a bit light on Sunbeams, though this would be corrected if more of us started using. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 14:43:38 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:42:36 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) Maybe you two guys could do an oil dance for us. Perhaps your open minds will discover something. Something along the order of a dance won't work any better than a hydrogen powered car. -- Bill -- John Logan writes: "When I was a youngster I lived near the Crow Indian Reservation in Montana. During a dry spell the Indians would do their rain dance for a week or so. It made them feel good, the rain gods felt good, and eventually it rained. One good thing though, it didn't cost the rest of us anything." Maybe the Crows were on to something! Closed minds rarely discover anything worthwhile. Tod B382002384LRXFE _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 14:43:54 2008 From: "Bob Dixon" To: "David Sosna" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:44:05 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Doane's Horses I believe he sleeved a 289 to 260. Perfectly legal. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 15:37:57 2008 From: To: "William Lau" , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:38:46 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant, Bond and Issetta(BMW) cabin scooters...This from a guy with a 2.3 liter motorcycle....Gary B9472283 ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Lau" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 4:42 PM Subject: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) > Maybe you two guys could do an oil dance for us. Perhaps your open minds > will discover something. Something along the order of a dance won't work > any > better than a hydrogen powered car. -- Bill -- > > > John Logan writes: > > "When I was a youngster I lived near the Crow Indian Reservation in > Montana. During a dry spell the Indians would do their rain dance for a > week or so. It made them feel good, the rain gods felt good, and > eventually it rained. One good thing though, it didn't cost the rest of > us anything." > > Maybe the Crows were on to something! Closed minds rarely discover > anything worthwhile. > > Tod > B382002384LRXFE > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as arado7@sbcglobal.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 15:49:52 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:49:34 EDT Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake 20 lb. Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to 2,370 lb. What else can go? M **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 16:06:04 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: CoolVT@aol.com, Tiger's Den Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:06:10 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Control of Energy Mark, What else can go? The availability of gasoline. But don't fret too much, the oil industry has more clout than any others, and they also own the major "gasohol", and other energy sources they can use to control "ENERGY". Remember the old days when "What's Good for GM is Good for the Country" resulted in them buying all the electric trolleys, and buses in L.A. and replacing them with Gasoline vehicles? "Cheer up, things could get worse!" So I did, and sure enough, things did get worse." Hey, I remember when the "AUDI" was a small, three cylinder, two cycle, economy car. And ugly, as well. Then again there was the Messerschmidt ! Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com CoolVT@aol.com wrote: > I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of > cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there is > the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... > > Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. > Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake 20 lb. > Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to 2,370 > lb. What else can go? > M _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 16:16:02 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:15:06 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake 20 lb. Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to 2,370 lb. What else can go? M I guess ice cream and chocolate. -- Bill -- _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 16:17:30 2008 From: "Teepen, Jere" To: Steve Laifman , "CoolVT@aol.com" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:17:36 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control of Energy My dad had a DKW (pre-Audi)in the late 50's/early 60's. I believe it was a 3 cylinder two stroke, but am unsure. He seems to have really enjoyed that car as it is one of the few he ever talks about. I have never been able to find any pictures of his, but have seen some photos of what they looked like. I wonder if there are any remaining here in the U.S. I have also never been able to find any pictures of his Alpine either, darn it. Jere -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve Laifman Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:06 PM To: CoolVT@aol.com; Tiger's Den Subject: [Tigers] Control of Energy Mark, What else can go? The availability of gasoline. But don't fret too much, the oil industry has more clout than any others, and they also own the major "gasohol", and other energy sources they can use to control "ENERGY". Remember the old days when "What's Good for GM is Good for the Country" resulted in them buying all the electric trolleys, and buses in L.A. and replacing them with Gasoline vehicles? "Cheer up, things could get worse!" So I did, and sure enough, things did get worse." Hey, I remember when the "AUDI" was a small, three cylinder, two cycle, economy car. And ugly, as well. Then again there was the Messerschmidt ! Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com CoolVT@aol.com wrote: > I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of > cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course > there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... > > Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. > Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake 20 lb. > Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to > 2,370 lb. What else can go? _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 16:25:22 2008 From: drmayf To: CoolVT@aol.com Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:25:22 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] (no subject) Downsizing may be forth coming for sure. But I dare you, no double dare you to jump into the Messerschmitt, BMW Isetta, Tata Nano and driv eit from here to Abile Texas in under 18 hours. I suspect that the number of gas stops would be wildly fun. Europeans, Brit, Japanese, Indians, all liv ein societies where they only go a m ile either before they forget where they were going becaus eof traffic problems, or traffic is so snarled they cannot move. Small cars in those places meam more trapped in traffic, lol. Do all those little bitty cars have air conditioning? Out here in the west it takes a lot of air conditioning. Lots. So I am with those who want to make our LBC lighter for around town, but leave my go to town cars alone, lol... Oh, I did th etexas thingy last week, in my 2005 Towncar, averaging nearly 70 mph and driving 80 most of the way. And got nearly 27 mph doing it in style and comfort and safety. Will a Tata Nano even go that fast? mayf, hot outside today around 106 or more... CoolVT@aol.com wrote: >I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of >cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there is >the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... > >Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. >Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake 20 lb. >Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to 2,370 >lb. What else can go? >M _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 16:28:24 2008 From: Marc James Small To: "Teepen, Jere" , Steve Laifman Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:24:33 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control of Energy At 06:17 PM 6/17/2008, Teepen, Jere wrote: >My dad had a DKW (pre-Audi)in the late 50's/early 60's. I believe it was a 3 >cylinder two stroke, but am unsure. He seems to have really enjoyed that car >as it is one of the few he ever talks about. I have never been able to find >any pictures of his, but have seen some photos of what they looked like. I >wonder if there are any remaining here in the U.S. I have also never been >able to find any pictures of his Alpine either, darn it. I blush to admit this, but part of my sinful youth was spent as an Episcopal Cathedral Choirboy in Pittsburgh in the 1960's. One of the Choir Mothers had a DKW. We once got nine choirboys into it, and I doubt if that record has ever been beaten. The history of Auto Union is fascinating and has been far more successful than that of the other Weimar-forced corporate merger of 1926, the Zeiss Ikon camera concern. Both were mergers of four companies -- note the four circles in the Audi logo? Marc msmall@aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 17:20:57 2008 From: "Teepen, Jere" To: Marc James Small , Steve Laifman Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:20:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control of Energy Audi, Horch, DKW, and Wanderer? -----Original Message----- From: Marc James Small [mailto:marcsmall@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:25 PM To: Teepen, Jere; Steve Laifman; CoolVT@aol.com; Tiger's Den Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control of Energy At 06:17 PM 6/17/2008, Teepen, Jere wrote: >My dad had a DKW (pre-Audi)in the late 50's/early 60's. I believe it was a 3 >cylinder two stroke, but am unsure. He seems to have really enjoyed that car >as it is one of the few he ever talks about. I have never been able to find >any pictures of his, but have seen some photos of what they looked like. I >wonder if there are any remaining here in the U.S. I have also never been >able to find any pictures of his Alpine either, darn it. I blush to admit this, but part of my sinful youth was spent as an Episcopal Cathedral Choirboy in Pittsburgh in the 1960's. One of the Choir Mothers had a DKW. We once got nine choirboys into it, and I doubt if that record has ever been beaten. The history of Auto Union is fascinating and has been far more successful than that of the other Weimar-forced corporate merger of 1926, the Zeiss Ikon camera concern. Both were mergers of four companies -- note the four circles in the Audi logo? Marc msmall@aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 17:38:47 2008 From: Marc James Small To: "Teepen, Jere" , Steve Laifman Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:32:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Control of Energy At 07:20 PM 6/17/2008, Teepen, Jere wrote: >Audi, Horch, DKW, and Wanderer? Certainly. The deal was cut in 1926 but only became a real union in 1932. Marc msmall@aya.yale.edu Cha robh b`s fir gun ghr`s fir! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 18:19:21 2008 From: "Chris and Jodie" To: "William Lau" , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:19:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] (no subject) It's already happening. A friend runs an auto dealership which includes both Honda and GMC. They were given wholesale, minus 8000 dollars for SUVs and then stopped taking them period. they are also paying up to 2000 dollars premium for small cars. Jack Wagoneer is right. Of course, too little to late, I think. My old man said people wouldn't buy GM cars for years in LA because of what they and Firestone did. I just found out from and old local guy that they did the same in the bay area (San Fran). Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Lau" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:15 PM Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) >I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of > cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course there > is > > the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... > > Well, if that's the answer we are doing our part with our 2,500 lb. cars. > Remove one gas tank and lose 50lb. Aluminum heads..50lb. Aluminum intake > 20 > lb. > Headers replacing cast iron ex. manifolds..10 lb. Now we're down to > 2,370 > lb. What else can go? > M > > I guess ice cream and chocolate. -- Bill -- > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as cjcoffel@sonic.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 18:42:52 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:42:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Steve, It's said that, "water seeks its own level." In the same way this list, "is what it is." I'd say 8 years ago when I joined it was about 80% information regarding Tigers as it related to their history or repairs. Recently, at times, it seems like 80% chit - chat. Using the water analogy again this list, "ebbs and flows." I think it has been "ebbing" for some time now. Regardless, the people are familiar to me, at times it gets back to its "Roote's" (Pun intended) and it is simply part of the social fabric of my life. Could it be better? Sure. But it could also be a lot worst. In a lot of ways it's like the Tiger itself. There a things you love, and there are things you hate. It is what it is. Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 18:46:44 2008 From: "Scott Hutchinson" To: , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:46:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Some of the best messages I have seen on this list fall into the chit chat category. I actually really like the e-mail format. For those of us with blackberries it sure helps break up the day. I will stay on this list long after I get rid of the car. Scott Hutchinson Director of Operations Netjets Large Aircraft Office 860.292.1191 Mobile 843.290.2805 ----- Original Message ----- From: tigers-bounces+shutchin=netjets.com@autox.team.net To: tigers@autox.team.net Sent: Tue Jun 17 20:42:56 2008 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate ? Steve, It's said that, "water seeks its own level." In the same way this list, "is what it is." I'd say 8 years ago when I joined it was about 80% information regarding Tigers as it related to their history or repairs. Recently, at times, it seems like 80% chit - chat. Using the water analogy again this list, "ebbs and flows." I think it has been "ebbing" for some time now. Regardless, the people are familiar to me, at times it gets back to its "Roote's" (Pun intended) and it is simply part of the social fabric of my life. Could it be better? Sure. But it could also be a lot worst. In a lot of ways it's like the Tiger itself. There a things you love, and there are things you hate. It is what it is. Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as shutchin@netjets.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive * ******** This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail and delete the message. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 20:53:42 2008 From: TIGEROOTES@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:55:52 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] DKW Jere writes: My dad had a DKW (pre-Audi)in the late 50's/early 60's. I believe it was a 3 cylinder two > stroke, but am unsure. > > I may be mistaken, but I think that DKW had the first automotive application > of a "infinately variable" gearbox, or whatever it was called. Two opposing > splined cones, one driven, one for the output. Ironically, I just purchased > a scooter that gets 95 mpg and has a very similar transmission. > > Jim Leach Pacific Tiger Club Seattle ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 21:00:20 2008 From: "Buck Trippel" To: , Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:00:28 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) Don't think that GM can be "entirely stupid"? I seemed to remember GM chose the Hummer over EV-1. And then the GM board openly laughed at Toyota's management when the Prius was announced. Toyota will sell several hundred thousand Priuses this year. But we all make mistakes. Then, didn't GM hire some of the top guys from Toyota? I believe the formula that the California Air Resources Board adopted was the reason for GM to run with Hydrogen. To comply with the California quotas, auto makers are allowed choices. Different types of vehicles have different production quotas The lowest quota is for Hydrogen vehicles. GM's new chairman seems to be really on the ball. I've listened to his interviews where he guesses at the future. He listed EVs as part of solution, but by no means the whole thing. He never mentioned Hydrogen. I took that as a hint. Buck Trippel ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:13 AM Subject: Re: [Tigers] BMW gas (not gasoline) > todbrown@roadrunner.com writes: > > I don't think that BMW and GM and the rest are entirely stupid, so they > must > envision a scenario in which H2 can play a role. Let's give a little > credit > for their willingness to try the experiment. > > > > When I was a youngster I lived near the Crow Indian Reservation in > Montana. > During a dry spell the Indians would do their rain dance for a week or so. > It > made them feel good, the rain gods felt good, and eventually it rained. > One > good thing though, it didn't cost the rest of us anything. > > John Logan > > > > **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as bucktrippel@verizon.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 21:31:10 2008 From: "Lionel Bohrer" To: "Email Tigerslist" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:31:21 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Paint and engine radiation cooling It's critical to understand here that we're talking infrared radiation and absorption here, not visible wavelengths. In the visible waveband, black does absorb better (try touching a white car versus black in direct sunlight), and radiate better as well, I think. The coeficients of radiation and absorption are usually very similar. At IR wavelengths, the transmission and absorption are more related to texture of the surface. I think a flat white will radiate just as well as black. I think you're free to select engine and engine compartment colors on convenience and cosmetic factors and essentially have the same energy transfer. That said, I've had the opinion that engine paints may add a layer of insulation to the engine and that may inhibit heat transfer from the engine interior and thus contribute to a hotter engine. Based an a lot of 40 year old conclusions and decisions. I left the engine compartment in my white Tiger white and painted the engine silver. I haven't researched these subjects recently, but doubt the physical principles have changed. Bud Bohrer _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 22:19:54 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:19:18 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Heater Motor Replacement Does anyone recall whether it was the MGB or the MG Midget that the "stubby" heater motor came out of (and maybe year specific too)? I bought one years ago, and had it installed in the blower case waiting for the day when... (the Tiger is done). I'm working on my Turbo Pinto and the heater motor hits the exhaust manifold. On a hunch I pulled the MG motor, put it in the Pinto and it does the trick because of its shorter length. I want to let these guys know about this little trick (they scrounge up A/C heaters because the motor is in the interior) . Thanks, Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1505 - Release Date: 6/16/2008 7:20 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Tue Jun 17 23:29:39 2008 From: Drmoonstone@aol.com To: jxnichols@sbcglobal.net, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 01:29:37 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Doane's Horses In a message dated 6/16/08 5:54:56 PM, jxnichols@sbcglobal.net writes: > "So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it!" > Yes, got it on the dyno! Feel free to call me a liar anytime. No lie, but I did bait everyone a little. Motor has a large arm, is bigger than 260, runs very high compression and has custom made alu heads from Ford's F1 and Indy motor program, full roller valve train. Mr. Begosian was a chief developer on the J and K code motors. There really is nothing 260 about it anymore. The big gamble is can I cool it. Joe wants to put a spray bar in front of the radiator. Also drivability issues are still a concern! So why do you feel so threatened by this? A similar combination of components used on a 302 has produced 475hp and is currently in a really fast Mustang running in the Central Valley. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 01:27:49 2008 From: "Mike Michels" To: , Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:28:13 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] DKW I think you are referring to DAF, which was a Dutch carmaker, more recent than DKW (which stood for Die Kleine Wunder or The Small Wonder) . DAF was the original user of the Van Doorne belt-type Continuously Variable Transmission. DAF also built some vehicles as a subcontractor for Volvo. I had one when I lived in Germany and it was, to be kind, not very good. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [Tigers] DKW > Jere writes: > > My dad had a DKW (pre-Audi)in the late 50's/early 60's. I believe it was > a 3 > cylinder two >> stroke, but am unsure. > >> >> I may be mistaken, but I think that DKW had the first automotive >> application >> of a "infinately variable" gearbox, or whatever it was called. Two >> opposing >> splined cones, one driven, one for the output. Ironically, I just >> purchased >> a scooter that gets 95 mpg and has a very similar transmission. >> >> Jim Leach Pacific Tiger Club Seattle > > > > > ************** > Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for > fuel-efficient used cars. > (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as mmichels@socal.rr.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 03:18:34 2008 From: Jeffrey Nichols To: Drmoonstone@aol.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Doane's Horses The quote "So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it!" is from your email of 6/16. That is your statement, not mine. Your statement says you cast doubt on getting 381 HP from a 260. My response was speculation on Doane Spencer achieving 400 HP from a Ford 260 using modern engine parts because Doane was said to get 349 HP in 1965. Believe me, I don't feel threatened by anything you say. Jeff Drmoonstone@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 6/16/08 5:54:56 PM, jxnichols@sbcglobal.net writes: "So are you getting 381 HP from your 260? I doubt it!" Yes, got it on the dyno! Feel free to call me a liar anytime. No lie, but I did bait everyone a little. Motor has a large arm, is bigger than 260, runs very high compression and has custom made alu heads from Ford's F1 and Indy motor program, full roller valve train. Mr. Begosian was a chief developer on the J and K code motors. There really is nothing 260 about it anymore. The big gamble is can I cool it. Joe wants to put a spray bar in front of the radiator. Also drivability issues are still a concern! So why do you feel so threatened by this? A similar combination of components used on a 302 has produced 475hp and is currently in a really fast Mustang running in the Central Valley. Moonstone ************** Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 04:59:26 2008 From: "Eric Frenken" To: "'tigers_United_forum'" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:59:33 +0200 Subject: [Tigers] Tiger dynamo Can anyone tell me the type of dynamo a '65 Tiger had been installed? Thank you. Eric _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 06:17:55 2008 From: tym2@comcast.net To: tigers@autox.team.net (Tiger's List) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:18:00 +0000 Subject: [Tigers] Help! Tigers, I have had an ongoing problem with my MK1A. Some time ago, I did the car over an added a 5 speed and "built" 302. The engine has Trick-Flow heads (I didn't paint them!), headers, Mallory ignition, and a not too hairy cam. I'm using an Edelbrock 289 Performer manifold with a Carter Competition 650cfm carb. Here's the problem: I live in new England, and after the winter (especially) the car doesn't run even - sometimes it won't idle at low rpm. I have a friend who is much better at the mechanical stuff than I am. Yesterday, he removed the bleeder screws from the base of the carb and blew them out with a little compressed air while opening and closing the throttle. It worked! Evidently there is moisture somewhere and he thinks the throttle plates are freezing. Are there different manifold gaskets I can get to allow a little heat to pass up there, - do I need some kind of base plate under the carb - or what? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance -- Tym McDowell _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 08:14:11 2008 From: " Ron Fraser" To: , "'tigers_United_forum'" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:12:43 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Tiger dynamo Eric The Dynamo is Ford part # C1TZ-10002-A See page WF3 of the parts list below http://www.tigersunited.com/resources/parts_rs260/Parts_List/17-WF-Electical Equipment.pdf Ron Fraser -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Eric Frenken Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 7:00 AM To: 'tigers_United_forum' Subject: [Tigers] Tiger dynamo Can anyone tell me the type of dynamo a '65 Tiger had been installed? Thank you. Eric You are subscribed as rfraser@bluefrog.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1506 - Release Date: 6/17/2008 4:30 PM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 09:05:19 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:01:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars For an interesting reference on a modern nano car in the real world, Car and Drivel a couple issues back took delivery of a Smartcar Twofour in Phoenix and actual drove it on the interstates and in the mountains. They got low-30's in mileage, mostly because the car was nearly WFO on the interstates. Little cars, at least under-powered little cars, are not the total answer. I owned a BMW Isetta 300 for a few years, it was powered by a 300 cc version of the R26 single-cylinder motorcycle engine. It was a joke to drive anywhere, 13 hp pushing 1100 lbs. is not entertaining in the least bit (0 to 30 in about 25 seconds). I'll take a Hillman Imp or Morris any day! Bugz -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of drmayf Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:25 PM To: CoolVT@aol.com Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] (no subject) Downsizing may be forth coming for sure. But I dare you, no double dare you to jump into the Messerschmitt, BMW Isetta, Tata Nano and driv eit from here to Abile Texas in under 18 hours. mayf, hot outside today around 106 or more... -------------------- CoolVT@aol.com wrote: >I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of >cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course >there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 09:14:05 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:10:27 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars one of the projects i'm planning is a fiat 500 with a 900cc kawasaki engine. power upgrade from 18hp to about 130. now that is fun! its one of the few cars light enough to work ok with the low torque of a motorbike engine. On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 4:01 PM, Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd) wrote: > For an interesting reference on a modern nano car in the real world, Car > and Drivel a couple issues back took delivery of a Smartcar Twofour in > Phoenix and actual drove it on the interstates and in the mountains. > They got low-30's in mileage, mostly because the car was nearly WFO on > the interstates. Little cars, at least under-powered little cars, are > not the total answer. > > I owned a BMW Isetta 300 for a few years, it was powered by a 300 cc > version of the R26 single-cylinder motorcycle engine. It was a joke to > drive anywhere, 13 hp pushing 1100 lbs. is not entertaining in the least > bit (0 to 30 in about 25 seconds). I'll take a Hillman Imp or Morris any > day! > > Bugz > > -----Original Message----- > From: tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net > [mailto:tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > drmayf > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:25 PM > To: CoolVT@aol.com > Cc: tigers@autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Tigers] (no subject) > > Downsizing may be forth coming for sure. But I dare you, no double dare > you to jump into the Messerschmitt, BMW Isetta, Tata Nano and driv eit > from here to Abile Texas in under 18 hours. > > mayf, hot outside today around 106 or more... > -------------------- > > CoolVT@aol.com wrote: > >>I still believe that the immediate solution is the downsizing of >>cars....Tata Nano....Worked in Europe after the war. And of course >>there is the Heinkel, Messerschmitt, Reliant... > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 09:30:59 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: "Rense, Mark \(GE Indust, ConsInd\)" , Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:25:56 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars The last tank on my Echo got me over 750 km or 460 miles (on about 41 litres, call it 11 US gallons). My normal commute speed is 60 to 70 mph with some 8 percent grades thrown in for fun, and there is lots of room left under my throttle foot. When the Tiger is back in running shape I'm going to do a mileage project with the Echo. I picked up an IHI turbo from a Subaru about 6 months ago... Not sure if it will be small enough for what I think is needed. With the Echo having variable intake valve timing, I figure I can run high static compression, let the intake cam retard to lower the piston compression ratio, and use the exhaust energy to drive the turbo and provide higher manifold pressure to get back to normal-range cylinder pressures. This way each compression stage is performed by the mechanism most suited to the task. Getting it all controlled the right way will be the challenge. I considered a Smart car when I was looking for a commuter vehicle. The Echo has twice the seats, it can carry ten foot long things with the trunk closed, and it cost me about half of what a Smart car would have. Theo _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 09:59:18 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: Theo.Smit@dynastream.com, mark.rense@ge.com, drmayf@mayfco.com Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:59:15 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Theo, That Echo definitely sounds like one of the answers. M **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 10:08:19 2008 From: "un-cole-a@juno.com" To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:07:17 GMT Subject: [Tigers] Crossmember Someone ask the question if the Alpine crossmember and the Tiger crossmember were the same unit. The answer was no, they were different units. To continue this discussion...... Is the Tiger crossmember a totally different stamping then the Alpine or is the crossmember the same unit but modified for the Tiger?? If the answer is a different unit, then the Tiger crossmember will sooner or later become an endangered animal. My understanding is, the Alpine crossmember was used but modified to be used on the Tiger. Tim 9470149 ____________________________________________________________ Beauty Advice Just Got a Makeover Read reviews about the beauty products you have always wanted to try http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7VSDPCMA5VwAUrDgk49xlXhVTW yeijBWDnNmwR4eTQfbJT8/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 10:12:04 2008 From: "un-cole-a@juno.com" To: atwittsend@verizon.net Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:11:42 GMT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Heater Motor Replacement TURBO PINTO??????? I thought all the Pintos were put out to pasture. Any pixs?? ____________________________________________________________ Smart Girls Secret Weapon Read Unbiased Beauty Product Reviews, Get Helpful Tips, Tricks and Sam http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/JKFkuJi7VaJFtAAaY0U4hh86xjg5BVDcu xYb0cdrfEOvGbgfwdyOKu/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 10:42:22 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:40:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars ".....I owned a BMW Isetta 300 for a few years, it was powered by a 300 cc version of the R26 single-cylinder motorcycle engine. It was a joke to drive anywhere, 13 hp pushing 1100 lbs. is not entertaining in the least bit (0 to 30 in about 25 seconds)......" Mark, interesting you brought up this car....I have a couple bmw issetta 600's, and was thinking I could get some serious mpg with one....but it sounds like you have already tried that and it didn't work out? I was going to pursue a late model bike motor like a efi R12....1200cc opposed twin which as I understand it will actually boltup to the transaxle....with some minor tweeking...it seems that most 11 and 1200cc bikes are around 120 horse..I was hoping that would work good in that micro car...that is as long as I don't get plowed by a semi-truck...or even a pickup....or a kid on a bike. Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 12:15:33 2008 From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:15:20 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines Not to rain on any parade, or to suggested shoehorn implants shouldn't be done - not at all. But, I did recently read an article that indicated that motorcycle engines are far dirtier than car engines. So, as usual, you don't get power for nothing! Of course, whether or not someone cares about that aspect, expecially in a 60's performance sports car forum, that's up to them. ====================================================================== Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in and transmitted with this communication is strictly confidential, is intended only for the use of the intended recipient, and is the property of Countrywide Financial Corporation or its affiliates and subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of the information contained in or transmitted with the communication or dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately return this communication to the sender and delete the original message and any copy of it in your possession. ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 12:29:16 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: "Cullen McCann" , Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:29:15 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Cullen, Where do I start? The Isetta's top speed was about 55 mph, so it was not suitable for American highways, plus I think the car would be a handful at any speed above that. It was dog slow off the line, so getting run over by an Escalade when the light turns green is a real possibility. The car was only attractive when parked, I eventually dreaded having to go somewhere in it, as I had to plan out a surface street route and then be on constant watch for errant SUVs. I sold it without hesitation when offered a reasonable sum. There are conversions to use a modern Honda engine out of a 250 scooter, that doubles the hp but that IMHO is still a long way off being practical. A company called Tri-Tech used to make kits and conversions for different motorcycle engines. I saw a link to a Suzuki Hayabusa-powered Isetta on YouTube, I cannot imaging 185 hp in such an unstable platform. You mentioned converting to an Oilhead Type 259 boxer engine, I do not think the old 4-speed from an R56 will "bolt on", you would be better served to buy a complete R1100 drive train and adapt that to the Isetta's rear end. Go for a motor out of a R or GS model, they are lower hp but better midrange power and torque. Also, I think you will also need to apply for a pilot's license before it's all over. Good luck with that! Bugz -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+mark.rense=ge.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Cullen McCann Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:41 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars ".....I owned a BMW Isetta 300 for a few years, it was powered by a 300 cc version of the R26 single-cylinder motorcycle engine. It was a joke to drive anywhere, 13 hp pushing 1100 lbs. is not entertaining in the least bit (0 to 30 in about 25 seconds)......" Mark, interesting you brought up this car....I have a couple bmw issetta 600's, and was thinking I could get some serious mpg with one....but it sounds like you have already tried that and it didn't work out? I was going to pursue a late model bike motor like a efi R12....1200cc opposed twin which as I understand it will actually boltup to the transaxle....with some minor tweeking...it seems that most 11 and 1200cc bikes are around 120 horse..I was hoping that would work good in that micro car...that is as long as I don't get plowed by a semi-truck...or even a pickup....or a kid on a bike. Cullen You are subscribed as mark.rense@ge.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 13:18:21 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com" , Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:16:11 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines "......Not to rain on any parade, or to suggested shoehorn implants shouldn't be done - not at all....." I think Bugz set me strait on the complications with this swap...have to say its not very reassuring, but I'm not clear on whey they shouldn't be done at all... Ive seen several motorcycle engine swaps into cars like lotus super 7's and caterhams, vw projects, etc...some seem to work fine for the intent behind the vehicle...like the Hyabusa engine as a popular donor motor for such projects....why not? Just asking, not really looking for a debate, I just honestly don't really know why its such a globally bad idea. Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 14:05:53 2008 From: "A. C. Tynes" To: Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:05:27 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines Cullen, I don't think it is a globally bad idea. There are, however, some additional difficulties and considerations in putting a modern bike engine in a car. Most bike engines and transmissions (Harleys and some of the other cruisers excepted) are designed for use as a unit, which means you either do without reverse or create a system of your own. Honda Goldwings, for example, use the starter motor to supply power to some sort of reverse gear arrangement. I don't think the lack of a reverse would necessarily be a bad thing in a race car, such as the Legends cars with motorcycle engines, but it could be a problem for an everyday car. Motorcycle engines (again with cruisers excepted) are also generally designed as high revving, low torque engines, especially the inline fours. Think 15-18,000 rpm for a street engine with max torque numbers less than half of max horsepower numbers. Again, it might not be bad for race cars, but lots of clutch slipping, shifting and thrashing for an everyday car. Most bike engines also have a throttle body or carb for each cylinder which complicates the tuning process a bit. Overall, I think a Honda VTEC 1600cc engine, for example, is a better swap than a 1300cc Hayabusa engine for a small car, but I would never discourage anyone from making any kind of swap. Don't get me wrong, I love motorcycles and ride about 10,000 miles a year. But, if I were to build a small car, I would be more likely to put a lightly stressed small block Ford in an old Geo Tracker that happens to be sitting around my house. Oh, wait - that is what I'm working on! A. C. Tynes New Orleans > > Just asking, not really looking for a debate, I just honestly don't really > know why its such a globally bad idea. > > Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 14:13:10 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "A. C. Tynes" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:12:45 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines its never going to be practical but you have to admit its fun: http://youtube.com/watch?v=6-_Hmjgjn7c i discovered a few people have done what i'm planning.... On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 9:05 PM, A. C. Tynes wrote: > Cullen, > > I don't think it is a globally bad idea. There are, however, some additional > difficulties and considerations in putting a modern bike engine in a car. > > Most bike engines and transmissions (Harleys and some of the other cruisers > excepted) are designed for use as a unit, which means you either do without > reverse or create a system of your own. Honda Goldwings, for example, use > the starter motor to supply power to some sort of reverse gear arrangement. > > I don't think the lack of a reverse would necessarily be a bad thing in a > race car, such as the Legends cars with motorcycle engines, but it could be > a problem for an everyday car. > > Motorcycle engines (again with cruisers excepted) are also generally > designed as high revving, low torque engines, especially the inline fours. > Think 15-18,000 rpm for a street engine with max torque numbers less than > half of max horsepower numbers. Again, it might not be bad for race cars, > but lots of clutch slipping, shifting and thrashing for an everyday car. > > Most bike engines also have a throttle body or carb for each cylinder which > complicates the tuning process a bit. > > Overall, I think a Honda VTEC 1600cc engine, for example, is a better swap > than a 1300cc Hayabusa engine for a small car, but I would never discourage > anyone from making any kind of swap. > > Don't get me wrong, I love motorcycles and ride about 10,000 miles a year. > But, if I were to build a small car, I would be more likely to put a lightly > stressed small block Ford in an old Geo Tracker that happens to be sitting > around my house. Oh, wait - that is what I'm working on! > > > A. C. Tynes > New Orleans > >> >> Just asking, not really looking for a debate, I just honestly don't really >> know why its such a globally bad idea. >> >> Cullen > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 14:24:14 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "owain.lloyd@gmail.com" , "A. C. Tynes" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:21:40 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines Thanks Owain and A.C.....very insightful....I hadn't thought-out the reverse gear issue.... Oh well, guess I'll stick to small block v8's in small roadsters...always a winner... ;) its never going to be practical but you have to admit its fun... _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 16:05:51 2008 From: Randy Smith To: Tiger List Serve Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:05:01 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Edelbrock Water Pump Does anyone have a part number for the Edelbrock water pump that fits the 260 engine? Thanks- Randy -- Randy Smith INNER QUEST, Inc. 34752 Charles Town Pike Purcellville, VA 20132 703-478-1078 540-668-6699 540-668-6253 fax InnerQuestOnline.com RSSmithIQ@cs.com Tiger- B382000189 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 16:30:17 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Cullen McCann" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:29:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines there quite a few motorbike conversions done here in the UK and the usual solution is a mechanically engaged starter motor for reverse gear. there's actually a company you can buy a kit from for mini's. their mini does 0-60 in about 2.6s. can't remember the name of them though.... On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 11:21 PM, Cullen McCann wrote: > Thanks Owain and A.C.....very insightful....I hadn't thought-out the reverse gear issue.... > > Oh well, guess I'll stick to small block v8's in small roadsters...always a winner... ;) > > > > > > > its never going to be practical but you have to admit its fun... _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Wed Jun 18 17:21:59 2008 From: "michael king" To: "'Spridgets'" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:19:52 +1000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Well keeping the Tigers theme.. I've always thought the KR500 (TIGER) messerschmitt would be a sweet ride with a 996 ducatti motor... oh and the sound! - Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 06:53:50 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:51:16 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Anything sounds good with a ducati 996 motor!!! That would sound good on a wheel barrow! Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Well keeping the Tigers theme.. I've always thought the KR500 (TIGER) messerschmitt would be a sweet ride with a 996 ducatti motor... oh and the sound! _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 06:55:36 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Cullen McCann" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:55:16 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars it'd be pretty fast on an unpainted, polished aluminum wheel barrow too. On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:51 PM, Cullen McCann wrote: > Anything sounds good with a ducati 996 motor!!! That would sound good on a > wheel barrow! > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars > > Well keeping the Tigers theme.. I've always thought the KR500 > (TIGER) messerschmitt would be a sweet ride with a 996 ducatti motor... oh > and the sound! > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 08:13:24 2008 From: " Ron Fraser" To: "'Randy Smith'" , "'Tiger List Serve'" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:13:27 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Edelbrock Water Pump Randy Here is an email that Eric Coiner sent out; If the front cover on your 260 is the original design, the proper part is : Edelbrock 8842 http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=EDL%2D8842&vi ew=1&N=700+0 You will need to use a hydraulic press to push the hub back to the correct depth to match your current pump. You will need to make a sleeve 5/8 id and 1 inch od to keep your pulleys concentric with the shaft. As an alternative, you can find a pulley from a Ford fairmont I believe. It has the same offset has a tiger pulley with a 5/8 hole. There was a guy on Ebay selling them regularly about 3 years ago. There are two flavors of 60's vintage Ford SB water pumps. With backing plate and without. Without is the earlier design and was replaced some time in the 65 model year. Pull your water pump off the car, if you can see the impeller you have no backing plate. Edelbrock p/n's 8841 Backing Plate 8842 No Backing Plate ------------------------------------------------- Ron Fraser -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+rfraser=bluefrog.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randy Smith Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 6:05 PM To: Tiger List Serve Subject: [Tigers] Edelbrock Water Pump Does anyone have a part number for the Edelbrock water pump that fits the 260 engine? Thanks- Randy -- Randy Smith INNER QUEST, Inc. 34752 Charles Town Pike Purcellville, VA 20132 703-478-1078 540-668-6699 540-668-6253 fax InnerQuestOnline.com RSSmithIQ@cs.com Tiger- B382000189 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as rfraser@bluefrog.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1507 - Release Date: 6/18/2008 7:09 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 08:40:53 2008 From: "Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:40:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines Jay, both the EU and USA EPA measure emissions based on grams per mile (or kilometer), small motorcycle engines will put out so little per mile they can pass without much control, so technically they are dirtier. Most larger bikes have stringent emission controls, European bikes have had catalytic converters for years. Now that our EPA has adopted the EU Tier II emissions standards, all bikes will be much cleaner. Even Harley passes these new requirements with flying colors. Of course, the first thing one does after acquiring a new product from The Motor Company is to add a louder exhaust, a free-flowing intake, and rejet the carb or re-program the computer module all in the name of added performance, i.e., noise. This of course negates much of the factory's emission control hard work. With the new 2010 laws restricting emission tampering, that too will be curtailed. The EPA started to regulate motorcycles in 1980, that first step basically outlawed 2-stroke engines over 50 cc, only the Yamaha RZ350 survived, it needed cat-cons to pass. Those laws were never changed on a national level until last year. However, the California regs have always been much tighter than the Feds and bike manufacturers have generally met those requirements nation-wide, so bikes have been much cleaner than they needed to be by law in the other 49. Of course, none of MY bikes have ever been tampered with, they're all completely stock...that's my story and I'm stickin' to it! Bugz -----Original Message----- From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:15 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines Not to rain on any parade, or to suggested shoehorn implants shouldn't be done - not at all. But, I did recently read an article that indicated that motorcycle engines are far dirtier than car engines. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 10:10:13 2008 From: John Crawley To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:10:21 +0000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate Hi All: One thing that would help communications for some of us with slower connections (and those who subscribe to the Digest version of the List) is for everyone to delete all the previous communications that are added when you Click Reply. It takes only three keystrokes: Control, A, Delete . . . then begin typing your message. The subject line and the order that the e-mails arrive are quite enough to keep track of the thread. Jc _________________________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 10:36:52 2008 From: "Steven L. Finberg" To: John Crawley Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:34:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate >The subject line and the order that the e-mails >arrive are quite enough to keep track of the thread. >Jc No... A thousand times No. Edit what you are responding to. But make sure we know WHAT and WHO you are responding to. It is much too easy to lose the thread if you remove eveything. Subjects often are incomlete and emails can show up days late and frequently out of order. Steve F ******************************************************************************* Steve Finberg W1GSL w1gsl@mit.edu PO Box 397082 MIT Br Cambridge MA 02139-7082 617 258 3754 ******************************************************************************* _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 10:43:42 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:41:53 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] A better way to communicate What do you guys think about it when someone leaves a line of the previous conversation like this: ".....Edit what you are responding to. But make sure we know WHAT and WHO you are responding to....." Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 12:14:16 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:14:09 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars I'm a little confused about the mileage regarding Nano cars and even the Prius. The "real world" best mileage they get seems to be about mid - 50 MPG. I have a 1991 Mazda 323, 5 speed with 150,000 miles on it. If I drive 55-60 MPH (I try and stay at 55) I have gotten 45 MPG on a number of trips. I'm not grasping all the "technological advancements" (and weight reduction with the Nano cars) in the 17 year gap between the time these cars were built. For my money (and in this case the Mazda was free) a decent, older car, driven in a practical way makes more economical sense. After all, though "mileage" may be the (sub) topic, in the end it's what it cost that matters. It kind of reminds me of that old comment that you were, "better off buying 4 year old Toyota than a new Yugo." It might be your better of buying an older car with good mileage and driving it properly than buying a Nano or a Preius. Well..., at least if your a penny pinching tight wad like myself. :-) Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 12:29:24 2008 From: Howard gentry To: Thomas Witt Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars hi, It seems that there is another thinking person on the planet that is not standing in line at the "do it our way" counter. I lived in England in the early 1970s'. I owned several cars..one of which was a 1957 Ford Anglia and another was a 1963 Ford Cortina. The Anglia got 52 MPG on an imperial gallon..the Cortina got 40 on the same gallon..The Anglia was a 1175 cc engine, 4 door..the Cortina was a 1500cc 4 door..both ran like the wind, did not ever break down and were easy to insure. I knew friends who had Simcas and the like that got better milage than my Fords..The point is..I think we are getting the s..t shoveled right in our face by Oil..that may control Auto Manufacturers and all else. The "green cars" are not going to solve anything long term except pile cash into the makers of these rediculous "bandaids". If England could do economical cars in the past, Why the hell can't the worlds' auto makers do it now?? Just a question I have been chewing on. Howard The Blues is the only music Original to the United States of America. --- On Thu, 6/19/08, Thomas Witt wrote: From: Thomas Witt Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 2:14 PM I'm a little confused about the mileage regarding Nano cars and even the Prius. The "real world" best mileage they get seems to be about mid - 50 MPG. I have a 1991 Mazda 323, 5 speed with 150,000 miles on it. If I drive 55-60 MPH (I try and stay at 55) I have gotten 45 MPG on a number of trips. I'm not grasping all the "technological advancements" (and weight reduction with the Nano cars) in the 17 year gap between the time these cars were built. For my money (and in this case the Mazda was free) a decent, older car, driven in a practical way makes more economical sense. After all, though "mileage" may be the (sub) topic, in the end it's what it cost that matters. It kind of reminds me of that old comment that you were, "better off buying 4 year old Toyota than a new Yugo." It might be your better of buying an older car with good mileage and driving it properly than buying a Nano or a Preius. Well..., at least if your a penny pinching tight wad like myself. :-) Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM You are subscribed as zymmer4@yahoo.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 13:18:37 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: , "Thomas Witt" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:18:34 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars I'm going to guess that none of the three cars under discussion had: -Power steering -Power door locks -Power windows -Air conditioning -air bags -plastic covering every piece of interior metal -an inch of sound deadener over every piece of the interior On the other hand, they had small-ish brakes and wheels/tires, and a driveline that was appropriately sized for the power levels used in the car. And they each weighed well under a ton. Most likely, they were not driven at much over 60 MPH very often either, so the inertia would have played a large factor in the mileage achieved. The problem is that the target buyer for the big automakers these days expects all of the comfort features, and the automakers know where their bread is buttered. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Howard gentry Sent: June 19, 2008 12:29 PM To: Thomas Witt Cc: tiger list Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars hi, If England could do economical cars in the past, Why the hell can't the worlds' auto makers do it now?? Just a question I have been chewing on. Howard _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 13:40:08 2008 From: tym2@comcast.net To: tigers@autox.team.net (Tiger's List) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:40:19 +0000 Subject: [Tigers] Electric Water Pump Is anyone out there in Tiger land using an electric water pump? Thanks in advance Tym McDowell _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 13:58:10 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: Tiger's List Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:56:24 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Electric Water Pump Tym, I don't have one on my Tiger, but I have had one on a couple of small block chevy's and 1 late model mustang 5.0. I expect the opinions to be across the board, but every experience I have had with one has been a good one. I know some people that think they are absurd... I have a custom, sort of pro-touring Chevy nova...67 model...another car widely known for cooling issues. I went to a giant aluminum radiator to try to get the car to cool...and then an auxillary hi flow electric fan....and only until the electric water pump was on, did the car really improve. It used to run 225 now it stops at water ever thermostat I'm running...if I run a 180 it runs 180 degrees, and 160...regardless. Plus...now with elec fan, and elec water, I theoretically freed up some horses. Plus you can now run the pump and fans with the motor off and cool the car down faster without it running if need be. The mustang ran normal and cool before hand, I installed the pump because I thought it was cool and it might free up a few horsepower. I cant however offer much as it relates to a Tiger. Cullen '1452 -------------------------------- Is anyone out there in Tiger land using an electric water pump? Thanks in advance Tym McDowell _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 16:19:26 2008 From: "Teepen, Jere" To: Thomas Witt , "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:19:11 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars My 1992 Dodge Colt (may it rest in peace...) got approximately 47 mpg on the freeway at 70 mph, with what may have been the last 4 speed manual transmission installed in a passenger car! Jere -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Thomas Witt Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:14 AM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars I'm a little confused about the mileage regarding Nano cars and even the Prius. The "real world" best mileage they get seems to be about mid - 50 MPG. I have a 1991 Mazda 323, 5 speed with 150,000 miles on it. If I drive 55-60 MPH (I try and stay at 55) I have gotten 45 MPG on a number of trips. I'm not grasping all the "technological advancements" (and weight reduction with the Nano cars) in the 17 year gap between the time these cars were built. For my money (and in this case the Mazda was free) a decent, older car, driven in a practical way makes more economical sense. After all, though "mileage" may be the (sub) topic, in the end it's what it cost that matters. It kind of reminds me of that old comment that you were, "better off buying 4 year old Toyota than a new Yugo." It might be your better of buying an older car with good mileage and driving it properly than buying a Nano or a Preius. Well..., at least if your a penny pinching tight Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.0/1509 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 8:00 AM ___ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 16:33:02 2008 From: Steve Sage To: "Teepen, Jere" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:33:12 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars / Gas Mileage Hey, I have a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger and when I'm cruising at a slow 90 MPH in 5th with the A/C on I get around 17 miles to the gallon. Plus, I get about 11-13 miles per gallon in city driving when I don't lift the front end off the ground. Is that good? Steve Sage Teepen, Jere wrote: > My 1992 Dodge Colt (may it rest in peace...) got approximately 47 mpg on the > freeway at 70 mph, with what may have been the last 4 speed manual > transmission installed in a passenger car! > > Jere > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Thomas Witt > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars > > I'm a little confused about the mileage regarding Nano cars and even the > Prius. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10070e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 16:46:09 2008 From: "Jerry" To: "'Steve Sage'" , "'Teepen, Jere'" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:46:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars / Gas Mileage Now we're getting back to reality!!! Jerry Christopherson -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Steve Sage Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:33 PM To: Teepen, Jere Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars / Gas Mileage Hey, I have a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger and when I'm cruising at a slow 90 MPH in 5th with the A/C on I get around 17 miles to the gallon. Plus, I get about 11-13 miles per gallon in city driving when I don't lift the front end off the ground. Is that good? Steve Sage Teepen, Jere wrote: > My 1992 Dodge Colt (may it rest in peace...) got approximately 47 mpg on the > freeway at 70 mph, with what may have been the last 4 speed manual > transmission installed in a passenger car! > > Jere > > -----Original Message----- > From: > Thomas Witt > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars > > I'm a little confused about the mileage regarding Nano cars and even the > Prius. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10070e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 17:03:25 2008 From: Howard gentry To: "Smit, Theo" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:03:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars hehe.. the target is fuel economy..it won't matter what kind of power accessories it has if all you can afford to run is a bicycle. If the industry wanted to build cars with good fuel milage, they would build the..Crash ratings?? Hehe..don't run ito things. Howard The Blues is the only music Original to the United States of America. --- On Thu, 6/19/08, Smit, Theo wrote: From: Smit, Theo Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars To: zymmer4@yahoo.com, "Thomas Witt" Cc: "tiger list" Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 3:18 PM I'm going to guess that none of the three cars under discussion had: -Power steering -Power door locks -Power windows -Air conditioning -air bags -plastic covering every piece of interior metal -an inch of sound deadener over every piece of the interior On the other hand, they had small-ish brakes and wheels/tires, and a driveline that was appropriately sized for the power levels used in the car. And they each weighed well under a ton. Most likely, they were not driven at much over 60 MPH very often either, so the inertia would have played a large factor in the mileage achieved. The problem is that the target buyer for the big automakers these days expects all of the comfort features, and the automakers know where their bread is buttered. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Howard gentry Sent: June 19, 2008 12:29 PM To: Thomas Witt Cc: tiger list Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars hi, If England could do economical cars in the past, Why the hell can't the worlds' auto makers do it now?? Just a question I have been chewing on. Howard You are subscribed as zymmer4@yahoo.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 17:12:33 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: Cullen McCann , Tiger's List Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Electric Water Pump Go up to the www.gt40s.com site. A few guys are runing them, and many long threads on various brands. I think Davies Craig (sp) has come up as an nice inline pump that works well and has external controls etc. Don't know much about the hot rod style front mounts but I think a few on the list have used them with good results. Sandy ----- Original Message ---- From: Cullen McCann To: Tiger's List Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:56:24 PM Subject: Re: [Tigers] Electric Water Pump Tym, I don't have one on my Tiger, but I have had one on a couple of small block chevy's and 1 late model mustang 5.0. I expect the opinions to be across the board, but every experience I have had with one has been a good one. I know some people that think they are absurd... I have a custom, sort of pro-touring Chevy nova...67 model...another car widely known for cooling issues. I went to a giant aluminum radiator to try to get the car to cool...and then an auxillary hi flow electric fan....and only until the electric water pump was on, did the car really improve. It used to run 225 now it stops at water ever thermostat I'm running...if I run a 180 it runs 180 degrees, and 160...regardless. Plus....now with elec fan, and elec water, I theoretically freed up some horses.. Plus you can now run the pump and fans with the motor off and cool the car down faster without it running if need be. The mustang ran normal and cool before hand, I installed the pump because I thought it was cool and it might free up a few horsepower. I cant however offer much as it relates to a Tiger. Cullen '1452 -------------------------------- Is anyone out there in Tiger land using an electric water pump? Thanks in advance Tym McDowell _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as sganz@pacbell.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 17:51:01 2008 From: "Wally Menke" To: "'Rense, Mark \(GE Indust, ConsInd\)'" , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:50:56 +1000 Subject: [Tigers] Nano Cars Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI Wally Menke _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 18:30:22 2008 From: Randy Smith To: Tiger List Serve Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:30:05 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley Ok, at the risk of scorn for not searching the archives first, a quick question about the infamous Fairmont water pump pulley. Does anyone remember the exact year(s) and model(s) for the water pump pulley that folks have been using? Or even better, the Ford part number? I'd love to track one down without dragging myself through all the local junk yards. I think it was a Fairmont, though someone said Fairlane to me also. I have another question too. I believe that some folks have used "MG" (I think) steering arms to help correct the Ackerman angle. Is that part of a more complex fix or can I just switch these and get some (mild form of) benefit? If so, which arms am I looking for? Thanks- Randy -- Randy Smith INNER QUEST, Inc. 34752 Charles Town Pike Purcellville, VA 20132 703-478-1078 540-668-6699 540-668-6253 fax InnerQuestOnline.com RSSmithIQ@cs.com Tiger- B382000189 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 18:32:59 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Wally Menke Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:33:09 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] You Tube & Top Gear Wally, Nice link. Funny car. But watch the FORD Top Gear offering of the Ford GT. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=dXF_oNFw2fM&feature=related Hope you have SOUND. Steve Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Wally Menke wrote: > Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night > which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the > link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into > this thing! > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI > > > Wally Menke _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 18:38:04 2008 From: "michael king" To: "Steve Laifman" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:38:14 +1000 Subject: Re: [Tigers] You Tube & Top Gear There are some great episodes on Top Gear, when in Dubai i was stuck in a hotel with crap pay tv.. so i sat on u-tube watching TG vids. The vid you link to is from clarksons "the good the bad and the ugly" a rather avg video about his visit to the USA.. this was the highlight of it. If you go to my youtube profile i have some nice TG episodes in my favourites.. Morgan GTN, Lambo Muria and some others you will like: http://www.youtube.com/profile_favorites?user=sunbeam6366 -- Regards Michael King _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 18:44:15 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: walmenke@bigpond.net.au, mark.rense@ge.com, drmayf@mayfco.com Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:43:20 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars In a message dated 6/19/2008 7:51:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, walmenke@bigpond.net.au writes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI That is funny. Did you see the camber on that thing....and lifts the wheel in a corner:-) **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 18:49:49 2008 From: "Teepen, Jere" To: Randy Smith , Tiger List Serve Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:49:49 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley Randy: The Ford Fairmont 6 cylinder was the car with the pulley that matches the Tiger depth. The only thing with the Fairmont pulley is it has either two or three grooves depending on what state it comes from. California definitely has three as the third was to drive a smog device most (or all) other states did not. I have a couple of them sitting around if you would like one. The MG steering arms are from the MGB. These have to be modified to match the mounting points on a Tiger, but that can be accomplished by any machine shop. I have several sets of these sitting around also. Jere -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jteepen=usatoday.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Randy Smith Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 5:30 PM To: Tiger List Serve Subject: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley Ok, at the risk of scorn for not searching the archives first, a quick question about the infamous Fairmont water pump pulley. Does anyone remember the exact year(s) and model(s) for the water pump pulley that folks have been using? Or even better, the Ford part number? I'd love to track one down without dragging myself through all the local junk yards. I think it was a Fairmont, though someone said Fairlane to me also. I have another question too. I believe that some folks have used "MG" (I think) steering arms to help correct the Ackerman angle. Is that part of a more complex fix or can I just switch these and get some (mild form of) benefit? If so, which arms am I looking for? Thanks- Randy -- Randy Smith INNER QUEST, Inc. 34752 Charles Town Pike Purcellville, VA 20132 703-478-1078 540-668-6699 540-668-6253 fax InnerQuestOnline.com RSSmithIQ@cs.com Tiger- B382000189 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 19:38:15 2008 From: Theo Smit To: "Teepen, Jere" Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:37:10 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley I'm using a D5ZE-8509-AC pulley. This is a single-sheave pulley originally from a 6 cylinder (79-83 or so) Mustang. On my old pump I didn't have to press anything to get perfect alignment, while on the replacement pump I ended up having to move it just a smidge. On the new pump I did have to make clearance (by trimming the ribs) for the inside of the pulley bell. The part number decodes to originally being from a (1975) Mustang application, but those didn't have the inline six that I think I got the pulley from... Theo Teepen, Jere wrote: > Randy: > > The Ford Fairmont 6 cylinder was the car with the pulley that matches the > Tiger depth. The only thing with the Fairmont pulley is it has either two or > three grooves depending on what state it comes from. California definitely > has three as the third was to drive a smog device most (or all) other states > did not. I have a couple of them sitting around if you would like one. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 19:42:09 2008 From: "Stu Brennan" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:42:24 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] More Nano Cars I'm surprised nobody has pointed at this one. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=1K1qV0zQ83A If the link doesn't work, just search for "Top Gear Peel P50" on Youtube. Stu -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wally Menke Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:51 PM To: 'Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)'; drmayf@mayfco.com Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Nano Cars Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI Wally Menke Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 20:29:35 2008 From: Gary Crandall To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:29:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] More Nano Cars I can top that one. --- On Thu, 6/19/08, Stu Brennan wrote: From: Stu Brennan Subject: [Tigers] More Nano Cars To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Thursday, June 19, 2008, 6:42 PM I'm surprised nobody has pointed at this one. http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=1K1qV0zQ83A If the link doesn't work, just search for "Top Gear Peel P50" on Youtube. Stu -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wally Menke Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 7:51 PM To: 'Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)'; drmayf@mayfco.com Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Nano Cars Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI Wally Menke Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as maliburevue@yahoo.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 20:34:07 2008 From: "A. C. Tynes" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Motorcycle engined cars Grassroots Motorsports magazine is building a Berkley with a modern motorcycle engine. The August issue says there will be a future article about building "A custom differential/transfer case featuring a reverse gear and a Torsen". Knowing GRM, I expect it to be a neat solution created without spending cubic dollars or using vast amounts of unobtainiam. Maybe Tim would like to give us a sneak preview? A.C. Tynes New Orleans _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 20:48:46 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:47:47 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Nano cars What about emission control. When the cars changed in about 1973 , mainly because of no more leaded fuel, the mileage went down considerably. This was probably due mostly to low compression necessary because of low octane fuels available at that time. Now gasoline has alcohol to improve octane but alcohol has much less energy per quantity so all of these things together and there goes fuel mileage. I remember many people asking in the 70's what good it was to improve the emissions 5% if the mileage was cut in half.-- Bill -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+mrlau=charter.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+mrlau=charter.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Smit, Theo Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 2:19 PM To: zymmer4@yahoo.com; Thomas Witt Cc: tiger list Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars I'm going to guess that none of the three cars under discussion had: -Power steering -Power door locks -Power windows -Air conditioning -air bags -plastic covering every piece of interior metal -an inch of sound deadener over every piece of the interior On the other hand, they had small-ish brakes and wheels/tires, and a driveline that was appropriately sized for the power levels used in the car. And they each weighed well under a ton. Most likely, they were not driven at much over 60 MPH very often either, so the inertia would have played a large factor in the mileage achieved. The problem is that the target buyer for the big automakers these days expects all of the comfort features, and the automakers know where their bread is buttered. Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Howard gentry Sent: June 19, 2008 12:29 PM To: Thomas Witt Cc: tiger list Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars hi, If England could do economical cars in the past, Why the hell can't the worlds' auto makers do it now?? Just a question I have been chewing on. Howard You are subscribed as mrlau@charter.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 20:53:10 2008 From: "William Lau" To: Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:52:15 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Nano cars / Gas Mileage No it is not good if you don't lift the front end off the ground. It is your responsibility to use all of your horsepower lest someone claim it is not necessary to have. -- Bill -- Hey, I have a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger and when I'm cruising at a slow 90 MPH in 5th with the A/C on I get around 17 miles to the gallon. Plus, I get about 11-13 miles per gallon in city driving when I don't lift the front end off the ground. Is that good? Steve Sage _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Thu Jun 19 23:49:51 2008 From: Steve Sage To: William Lau Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:49:51 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars / Gas Mileage Bill: Of course you are right, and I have been aptly chastened (That's a big word I learned when I read a book once). Use it or lose it, so it's wheelie time for me! Steve Sage William Lau wrote: > No it is not good if you don't lift the front end off the ground. It is > your responsibility to use all of your horsepower lest someone claim it is > not necessary to have. -- Bill -- > > > > Hey, I have a 1966 Sunbeam Tiger and when I'm cruising at a slow 90 MPH > in 5th with the A/C on I get around 17 miles to the gallon. Plus, I get > about 11-13 miles per gallon in city driving when I don't lift the front > end off the ground. Is that good? > > Steve Sage > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10080e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 03:44:32 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: "Randy Smith" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:44:32 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley the MGB steering arms are used together with an MG midget rack and some adapters that dale a. sells. the whole job is relatively simple. i have made this change and notice: - no tire scrub - easier and more precise adjustment of toe (straight track rods) - quicker ratio steering much happier with it. if you have larger rotors you may run into problems with the steering arms hitting the rotors. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 1:30 AM, Randy Smith wrote: > Ok, at the risk of scorn for not searching the archives first, a quick > question about the infamous Fairmont water pump pulley. Does anyone > remember the exact year(s) and model(s) for the water pump pulley that > folks have been using? Or even better, the Ford part number? I'd love > to track one down without dragging myself through all the local junk > yards. I think it was a Fairmont, though someone said Fairlane to me also. > > I have another question too. I believe that some folks have used "MG" > (I think) steering arms to help correct the Ackerman angle. Is that > part of a more complex fix or can I just switch these and get some (mild > form of) benefit? If so, which arms am I looking for? > > Thanks- Randy > -- > > Randy Smith > INNER QUEST, Inc. > 34752 Charles Town Pike > Purcellville, VA 20132 > 703-478-1078 > 540-668-6699 > 540-668-6253 fax > > InnerQuestOnline.com > RSSmithIQ@cs.com > Tiger- B382000189 > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 07:43:18 2008 From: Rollright@aol.com To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:43:24 EDT Subject: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Hello, Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a Tiger. He says he is using Redline Oil's Water Wetter.........for better heat transfer. Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or is it wishful thinking.................................. Best regards, Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 08:16:37 2008 From: Stephen Waybright To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net, Rollright@aol.com Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 07:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I use it in my SM racecar based on widespread use by other racers. No testing on my part.. but no problems either. If you run antifreeze, I don't think I'd bother. --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Rollright@aol.com wrote: > From: Rollright@aol.com > > Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a > Tiger. > > He says he is using Redline Oil's Water > Wetter.........for better heat > transfer. > > Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or > is it wishful > thinking.................................. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 08:49:07 2008 From: "Owain Lloyd" To: gswaybright@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:48:48 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not what kind of water is best to use with antifreeze/coolant? plain tap water or filtered water? the water is pretty hard where i live. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Waybright wrote: > I use it in my SM racecar based on widespread use by other racers. No testing on my part.. but no problems either. > > If you run antifreeze, I don't think I'd bother. > > > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Rollright@aol.com wrote: > >> From: Rollright@aol.com >> >> Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a >> Tiger. >> >> He says he is using Redline Oil's Water >> Wetter.........for better heat >> transfer. >> >> Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or >> is it wishful >> thinking.................................. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 08:54:58 2008 From: To: owain.lloyd@gmail.com, gswaybright@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:55:08 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I use ONLY distilled water in my racing Alpine. We are not allowed to run anti-freeze so I just put in some Prestone anti-rust additive to keep the cooling system from rusting up on me. In fact, I only use distilled water in all of my cars. As for Water-Wetter, I ran it in the Alpine at first but stopped running it after I rebuilt the motor. I've seen no difference with or without it. The fellow from whom I bought my Tiger years ago ran it in the Tiger but, when I changed the anti-freeze the first time, I didn't put it back in. Again, I saw no difference. Personally, I wouldn't waste my money on it. Andy Walker B382001600LRXFE B9006857LRX ---- Owain Lloyd wrote: > what kind of water is best to use with antifreeze/coolant? plain tap > water or filtered water? the water is pretty hard where i live. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 08:58:30 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:58:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not "............ Personally, I wouldn't waste my money on it." I agree with Andy regarding the water wetter...back to my cooling on my chevy...I used it several years ago per manufacturers recommendations and saw no difference whatsoever. Cullen _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 09:05:55 2008 From: "Stu Brennan" To: , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:06:13 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I use distilled water, available at local pharmacies in gallon jugs for cheap money. This is NOT the same as "deionized" water. I have noticed less of that crusty crud that collects in the cooling system since switching to this in all my cars. That Water Wetter stuff, didn't we discuss this a few years back, with a conclusion that it doesn't hurt anything, but there was little evidence that if made a significant difference? Stu -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+stubrennan=comcast.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Owain Lloyd Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 10:49 AM To: gswaybright@yahoo.com Cc: Rollright@aol.com; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not what kind of water is best to use with antifreeze/coolant? plain tap water or filtered water? the water is pretty hard where i live. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Waybright wrote: > I use it in my SM racecar based on widespread use by other racers. No testing on my part.. but no problems either. > > If you run antifreeze, I don't think I'd bother. > > > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Rollright@aol.com wrote: > >> From: Rollright@aol.com >> >> Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a >> Tiger. >> >> He says he is using Redline Oil's Water >> Wetter.........for better heat >> transfer. >> >> Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or >> is it wishful >> thinking.................................. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 09:06:08 2008 From: Sandy Ganz To: Rollright@aol.com, tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I have used it with good results, but not all can be attributed to the water wetter. I used to run anti-freeze in the race car and due to the smallish radiator in the summer was always up in temp around the 230 mark on the track. I got a bottle of it and drained the cooling system of antifreeze and filled it with distilled water and redline water wetter and in similar conditions lost about 10 degrees (not scientific, just where it seems to run). I was using standard prestone type antifreeze, but water is a better heat conductor and as I don't have an Iron engine in the car so was less worried about the rust inhibitors etc. The watter wetter bottle mentions it is less effective with antifreeze so might help but not as much. It also seems just like some type of soapish substance, slick to touch, and I guess the magic is it reduces surface tension. Sean - Can I use water wetter and get away with polish head? Just kidding of course! P.S. Most tracks will be pissed off if you are running anti-freeze and have a problem, the track workers I was talking with said that they would rather clean an oil slick then antifreeze as the oil is much easier to get up. ----- Original Message ---- From: "Rollright@aol.com" To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 6:43:24 AM Subject: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Hello, Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a Tiger. He says he is using Redline Oil's Water Wetter..........for better heat transfer. Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or is it wishful thinking................................... Best regards, Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html You are subscribed as sganz@pacbell.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team..net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 09:30:32 2008 From: "Thomas Witt" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:30:20 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Fairmont Pulley (Steering arms) I would add that one doesn't necessarily have to machine the arms. The issues is that there is a slight displacement on the bolt holes on the spindle and those on the arm. A small amount of time with a round file takes care of the matter. I can't remember which way the displacement was. But, if the spacing is too long file the front hole. If it is too short file the back hole. What that will do is make the arms ever so slightly forward, which while minor, is still a move in the right direction. Tom Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1511 - Release Date: 6/20/2008 11:52 AM _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 09:38:08 2008 From: "Duke Samouce" To: "'Stu Brennan'" , , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:35:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not If you think that you need a product like Water-wetter, then you need to take a look at your cooling system. Water-wetter, if it did work, is just a band aide for a bigger problem. I also use only distilled water and minimal anti-freeze. Pure distilled water cools the best. Anti-freeze actually reduces the cooling capacity of the fluid, the less the better. My tiger runs at 180 regardless of driving conditions. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 10:08:42 2008 From: jhef101@aol.com To: Rollright@aol.com, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:08:26 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Years ago when I ran my Tiger in Arizona I tried Water Wetter, I saw no difference in coolant temps when doing so. I ended up installing a Ron Davis aluminum radiator which solved most of the cooling issues. Jeff Hefner B9470028 -----Original Message----- From: Rollright@aol.com To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Sent: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 9:43 am Subject: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Hello, Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a Tiger. He says he is using Redline Oil's Water Wetter.........for better heat transfer. Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or is it wishful thinking.................................. Best regards, Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) You are subscribed as jhef101@aol.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 10:13:01 2008 From: Jay_Laifman@countrywide.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:07:29 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano cars with motorcycle engines I didn't see this come through. So, I'm sending it again: Here is the article I read: http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-throttle11-2008jun11,0,3268856.story It says that motorcycles account for 3.6% of registered vehicles, 1% of miles travelled, but 10% of the smog causing emissions. Note that it's not just carbon monoxide, but oxides of nitrogen creating this problem. More to the point, it concludes with the following shocker: "Motorcycles, even small ones, are more polluting than Hummers, but it's the best that can be done for now." Jay ====================================================================== Confidentiality Notice: The information contained in and transmitted with this communication is strictly confidential, is intended only for the use of the intended recipient, and is the property of Countrywide Financial Corporation or its affiliates and subsidiaries. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use of the information contained in or transmitted with the communication or dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited by law. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately return this communication to the sender and delete the original message and any copy of it in your possession. ====================================================================== _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 10:42:11 2008 From: "Jerry" To: "'Wally Menke'" , "'Rense, Mark \(GE Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars EIGHT LUG NUTS?? What were they thinking? Jerry Christopherosn -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Wally Menke Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:51 PM To: 'Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)'; drmayf@mayfco.com Cc: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Nano Cars Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into this thing! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI Wally Menke You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 10:42:30 2008 From: "CSX2282" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:42:10 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not >Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:43:24 EDT >From: Rollright@aol.com >Hello, >Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a Tiger. >He says he is using Redline Oil's Water Wetter.........for better heat >transfer. >Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or is it wishful >thinking.................................. >Best regards, >Jim Armstrong >Mk 1A 382002083 >LRXFE Jim, I posted the following to another list about 5 years ago. Rather than doing a re-write I'm doing a copy and paste. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------- There isn't universal agreement on the effectiveness of WaterWetter and like products. A number of years ago I was visiting a shop that was doing some machine work for a motor rebuild. There was a guy ahead of me being waited on by the shop's owner. This guy had a set of 351W Ford heads he was dropping off for some work. He was showing the shop owner some serpentine shaped etch marks around the water jacket passage holes and asked what might have caused them. The shop owner asked him if he used WaterWetter, and the guy replied that, yes he did. The shop owner commented that he had seen similar marks around the water passage holes of other engines he had worked on that had used WaterWetter in the coolant. Since I had also been using WaterWetter, after this guy had left, I asked the owner if he thought it was a bad idea to use it. He said he didn't know if it caused any great harm, but he did comment that he had talked to a another shop owner that made custom radiators for him. One of the companies this shop bought products from had run tests on all of the radiator additives then on the market and that none of them provided any additional cooling benefits. I admit that I didn't see this data, so this is literarily third hand information, but I did see the etch marks I mentioned. Based on this alone, I stopped using WaterWetter. One other comment about WaterWetter. At the time I was using it, was sold in two forms- crystals and liquid. Supposedly the crystalline form had corrosion inhibitors and lubricants for water pump bushings. The liquid form was meant as a supplement to a water/antifreeze mix and did not have lubricants. This was quite a few years ago, so maybe the liquid formulation has changed since then. At the time I was running just water and had trouble finding the crystalline form so I used the liquid and added a lubricant to the mix. If you are running just water and WaterWetter, you might want to check into this. Currently I use about a 50/50 mix of antifreeze and distilled water in a mildly tuned engine and am not experiencing any overheating problems. Roland _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 10:59:55 2008 From: "Jeffrey Nichols" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:00:16 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not - Snake Oil Yes! Put my vote in the "don't waste your money" column. I tried it several years ago and stopped using it and there was no noticeable difference in engine cooling. One of the street rod or performance mags came to the same conclusion several years ago and said so in a article. Follow the recommendations listed in the Tigers Alpines East web site for cooling tips. Jeff _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 11:05:46 2008 From: "Jerry" To: , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:01:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I used it on mine, can't say it had any effect at all that I could see. Jerry Christopherson -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Rollright@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 8:43 AM To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Subject: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Hello, Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a Tiger. He says he is using Redline Oil's Water Wetter.........for better heat transfer. Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or is it wishful thinking.................................. Best regards, Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 11:15:51 2008 From: "Jerry" To: , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:11:06 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Owain, As everyone is saying distilled is best, however checking the pH is also important if you have aluminum in the cooling system (heads, radiator,waterpump), if I'm not mistaken pH should be around 7.0 to keep corrosion to a minimum. Jerry Christopherson -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Owain Lloyd Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:49 AM To: gswaybright@yahoo.com Cc: Rollright@aol.com; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not what kind of water is best to use with antifreeze/coolant? plain tap water or filtered water? the water is pretty hard where i live. On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:16 PM, Stephen Waybright wrote: > I use it in my SM racecar based on widespread use by other racers. No testing on my part.. but no problems either. > > If you run antifreeze, I don't think I'd bother. > > > --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Rollright@aol.com wrote: > >> From: Rollright@aol.com >> >> Just looked at the Classic Motorsports restoration of a >> Tiger. >> >> He says he is using Redline Oil's Water >> Wetter.........for better heat >> transfer. >> >> Anybody tried it? Anybody see the Temp gauge go down? Or >> is it wishful >> thinking.................................. > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as owain.lloyd@gmail.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 11:29:24 2008 From: Cullen McCann To: "tigers@autox.team.net" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:29:38 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Jerry, If the ph level is not at 7.0, what can you do to correct it? Is there an additive or a solution to maintain that ph level? Cullen '1452 _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:07:28 2008 From: "Jerry" To: "'Cullen McCann'" , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:56:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not List, Well after talking to a friend of mine who researched all this. First of all it isn't 7.0 as I said, its .7 and distilled water is around .5. And it's the old acid base thing, to raise the number (more base) things like antifreeze, Royal Purple water wetter, will raise the number. Apparently it doesn't take much to raise the number; my friend said he used only about 1/2 a bottle of Royal Purple to get his up to the .7 mark. A kit for measuring pH is available at Wal-Mart or other pool stores as a pool pH kit very cheep. If per chance your water is very acid then baking soda is the way to get it down. Hope this helps. Jerry Christopherson -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Cullen McCann Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 12:30 PM To: tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Jerry, If the ph level is not at 7.0, what can you do to correct it? Is there an additive or a solution to maintain that ph level? Cullen '1452 You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:09:23 2008 From: drmoonstone@aol.com To: tym2@comcast.net, tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:09:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Electric Water Pump I'm thinking about it but have not gone very far with it yet. Moonstone Is anyone out there in Tiger land using an electric water pump? Thanks in advance Tym McDowell _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:32:12 2008 From: drmoonstone@aol.com To: sganz@pacbell.net, Rollright@aol.com, tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:31:31 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Sure, it's good for not leaving spots when you wash those pretty polished heads. Remember don't do it in the sun, it's so efficent that you might vaporize from the reflected heat! LOL Sean Sean - Can I use water wetter and get away with polish head? Just kidding of course! P.S. Most tracks will be pissed off if you are running anti-freeze and have a problem, the track workers I was talking with said that they would rather clean an oil slick then antifreeze as the oil is much easier to get up. _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:34:00 2008 From: "Smit, Theo" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:31:44 -0600 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Hi all, pH of a water solution ranges from 0 to 14. 7.0 is neutral and less than 7 is acidic; higher is basic. Why would distilled water be acidic? The water bottlers may add ozone to sterilize the water, but it seems to me that they'd have to really work at it to bring the pH down to 5. Wikipedia says it's dissolved CO2 that causes distilled water to go slightly below 7.0, but not by how much: http://waterontheweb.org/under/waterquality/ph.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distilled_water I've always run 50:50 antifreeze and water, even when I was racing. You never know when it's going to get cold outside and freeze things. The main benefit that you want to get (other than freezing protection) from any cooling system additive is corrosion inhibiting, which means that maybe the best thing you can add to your coolant is a chunk of magnesium or zinc... And then flush and refill once a year or so. Cheers, Theo -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+theo.smit=dynastream.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: June 20, 2008 11:57 AM To: 'Cullen McCann'; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not List, Well after talking to a friend of mine who researched all this. First of all it isn't 7.0 as I said, its .7 and distilled water is around .5. Jerry Christopherson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:36:34 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Jerry Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:36:14 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Guys (and gals), /Note. Isn't it strange that the current crop of young people seem to use the word "guys" to apply to any group of contemporaries, male and/or female. "Guy" was a common reference, in England, for male "serfs". Some male serfs even had surnames of "Guy"./ Anyway, a few comments on additives. * Most oil additives are redundant to the original oil manufacturers additives. * Antifreeze (good) has properties that raise the boiling point, as well as lowering the freezing point, and can be beneficial year round. * I used to use a milky white additive to remove deposited rust from the water passages. Can' remember the name, but it really seemed to work. * Besides, some snakes object to being milked, and it is a hazardous profession extracting it. My $0.02 cents worth - although 2" doesn't go very far. Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Jerry wrote: > I used it on mine, can't say it had any effect at all that I could see. > > Jerry Christopherson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:54:25 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Cullen McCann Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:53:58 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Cullen, OM, Distilled (not "spring" or "deionized" water)" Stu Brennan said: /"I use distilled water, available at local pharmacies in gallon jugs for cheap money. This is NOT the same as "deionized" water. I have noticed less of that crusty crud that collects in the cooling system since switching to this in all my cars." / I have found it in larger "supermarkets", hidden amongst other large bottled waters. I would not recommend "titration" with acids or bases and Ph testers (orangeish paper test strips at Swimming Pool retailers). But is a good way of knowing where you are. 7.0 is the target (neutral). Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Cullen McCann wrote: > Jerry, > > If the ph level is not at 7.0, what can you do to correct it? Is there an > additive or a solution to maintain that ph level? > > Cullen > '1452 > ______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 12:58:41 2008 From: Steve Laifman To: Jerry Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:58:21 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Jerry, Sorry, but 7.0 is correct for neutral (acid vs base) Ph. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Jerry wrote: > List, > > Well after talking to a friend of mine who researched all this. > > First of all it isn't 7.0 as I said, its .7 and distilled water is around > .5. > > Jerry Christopherson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 13:53:45 2008 From: "Jerry" To: "'Steve Laifman'" Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:47:59 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Yup, you're right. See what happens when you talk to your "friends". Ha. Shuda stayed with my first thought. Jerry -----Original Message----- From: Steve Laifman [mailto:SLaifman@SoCal.rr.com] Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 1:58 PM To: Jerry Cc: 'Cullen McCann'; tigers@autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not Jerry, Sorry, but 7.0 is correct for neutral (acid vs base) Ph. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PH Steve ___ Steve Laifman Editor - TigersUnited.com Jerry wrote: > List, > > Well after talking to a friend of mine who researched all this. > > First of all it isn't 7.0 as I said, its .7 and distilled water is around > .5. > > Jerry Christopherson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 13:59:01 2008 From: Jeff Howarth To: Jerry Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:28:55 +0100 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Nano Cars Jerry, thats obvious. 10 lug nuts is down to the lawn mower they came off. if you take a look at this film of them : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07ub5rBdrE4&feature=related you will see the registration on one ends in a C - that means it s a 65 car and the same year as TIGERS hit the road - one extreme to the other ! the flying saucer top ones are cool ! regards Jeff In message <000001c8d2f3$e86d1d10$fbcac24a@jerry>, Jerry writes >EIGHT LUG NUTS?? What were they thinking? > >Jerry Christopherosn > >-----Original Message----- >From: tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net >[mailto:tigers-bounces+jcmc2006=suddenlink.net@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of >Wally Menke >Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 6:51 PM >To: 'Rense, Mark (GE Indust, ConsInd)'; drmayf@mayfco.com >Cc: tigers@autox.team.net >Subject: [Tigers] Nano Cars > >Talking about Nano cars, we had an episode of Top Gear hear on Monday night >which had a brilliant segment on a Peel P50 microcar. You can see it on the >link below and see how 6'5" Jeremy Clarkson folds himself up to fit into >this thing! > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqf1yKxb9hI > > >Wally Menke >You are subscribed as jcmc2006@suddenlink.net > >Tigers@autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > >http://www.team.net/archive >_______________________________________________ >Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > >You are subscribed as jeff@v8tiger.demon.co.uk > >Tigers@autox.team.net >http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > >http://www.team.net/archive > -- Jeff Howarth _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 19:24:13 2008 From: "Jerry" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:22:31 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) List, Well, just saw the movie Get Smart. If you set aside all reality and understand that it's (and always was) a spoof on all kinds of spy, espionage, intelligence-type movies. then you might enjoy the movie. I enjoyed it. And Ann Hathaway isn't that hard to look at either. But that's just my opinion. The Tiger scene is a bit short, but I think he had the old SU fuel pump problem. The shots of the Ghia, and Opel were a bit longer, but all were too short. It would be nice if this raises the value of our Tigers, but I'm afraid the exposure was too short to have much effect. Jerry Christopherson _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 19:38:31 2008 From: "Duke Samouce" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:35:41 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo I just saw it too. Funny movie. Big disappointment on the Tiger (Alpine) exposure. The car no sooner starts (sounding like a 4 banger) than it breaks down and a Ghia is its replacement. Will do nothing for our cars image. Duke -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jerry Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:23 PM To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) List, Well, just saw the movie Get Smart. If you set aside all reality and understand that it's (and always was) a spoof on all kinds of spy, espionage, intelligence-type movies. then you might enjoy the movie. I enjoyed it. And Ann Hathaway isn't that hard to look at either. But that's just my opinion. The Tiger scene is a bit short, but I think he had the old SU fuel pump problem. The shots of the Ghia, and Opel were a bit longer, but all were too short. It would be nice if this raises the value of our Tigers, but I'm afraid the exposure was too short to have much effect. Jerry Christopherson You are subscribed as wsamouce@kc.rr.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 19:44:21 2008 From: Sjhcobra1@cs.com To: tigers@Autox.Team.Net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:44:25 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not I typically run about a50/50 mix of distiller water and antifreeze satisfactorily. Steve Halbrook _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 20:20:21 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: JCMC2006@suddenlink.net, TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:20:32 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] (no subject) It would be nice if this raises the value of our Tigers, but I'm afraid the exposure was too short to have much effect. Probably the Subway campaign will have more effect:-) M **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 20:24:43 2008 From: DJoh797014@aol.com To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:24:46 EDT Subject: [Tigers] More Snake oil I posted this eons agao but its still true. BEWARE OF 'GREEN GOO' I worked for the largest specialty chemical company in the country whose business has involved boiler and water treatment for decades. Here is what our chemists have found: If you heat antifreeze that contains silicon (such as Prestone) above 210 deg rees, when it cools down, the silicon precipitates with the minerals in the water. After a period of time, all the silicon will have precipitated and only the glycol is left in solution. This protects the car from freezing, but the precipitates form on the water jackets preventing efficient heat transfer, may harm the water pump, and clog the radiator. Also the silicon is not longer present to prevent corrosion between the dissimilar metals in the engine. Look under your radiator cap. See that funny looking green stuff? We call it the 'GREEN GOO'. Say 'THANK YOU' to Mr. Prestone. By topping up with more antifreeze, you are just adding more silicon to the system to precipitate out. By flushing your radiator and refilling with fresh antifreeze only adds to the precipitate problem by giving it more silicon and tap water to make precipitate from. The precipitates are not water soluble and flushing will not remove them. Eventually your cooling system will fall victim to the 'GREEN GOO'. Therefore whenever you change your antifreeze, you must use a good chemical flush to purge your cooling system of the precipitates. A 'quick' flush or power flush will not do it since they are mechanical flushes. One product 'COOL PREP' is especially good for cleaning a cooling system. You add it to your coolant and drive with it for a week and then flush the cooling system. This product will dissolve all precipitates so they can flushed. It may be too good. Any small leaks that were plugged by corrosion will be free to leak again. This includes heater cores, etc. Refill with fresh antifreeze and clean water, leaving room for another product called 'COOL TECH 2'. This product originally was developed for nuclear steam plants and prevents the silicon from precipitating. By staying in solution, silicon provides the dissimilar metal protection, lubricates the water pump, maintains good heat transfer in the engine water jackets, AND avoids the dreaded 'GREEN GOO'. It costs less than a dollar. In theory since the silicon remains in solution, and ethylene gycol never wears out, the antifreeze should be good forever. In line coolant filters provide extra protection. Also remember your coolant does not raise the boiling point. That's is what the radiator cap does. 3 degrees per lb. Boiling point with a 13 lb cap is 212 + 39 = 241. **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 21:26:50 2008 From: Peter MacDonald To: tigers@autox.team.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:26:56 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Sunbeam but not Tiger related Fellow listers: In the process of cleaning out my parents' basement, I came across a Sunbeam toaster(60's?) and a Sunbeam Mixmaster(early!). For those of you that have to have everything Sunbeam in your world, these may interest you. If so, please let me know soon. If not, they will be off to Canadian Diabetes, Big Brothers or someone similar. Please contact me off list. Thanks. Peter MacDonald _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 21:30:52 2008 From: DJoh797014@aol.com To: tigerlat70@comcast.net Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:31:03 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] More Snake oil The chemists recommend a 50-50 mix of mineral free water and antifreeze. Mineral free does not mean distilled. They also said that commercial distilled water tends to be slight acidic. The antifreeze is needed to lubricate the water pump and prevent freezing. Don't forget the needed CoolTec2 to prevent the silicates from participating. Cooltec2 has silver azide in it which keeps the silicates in a soluble form. It comes in a 12 oz bottle and treats up to 12 gallons. One bottle will do 2 Tigers. Actually they said that the best cooling solution is all water. All water has the greatest heat transfer. But that has some disadvantages, No water pump lubricant. No freezing protection. But all water is the best for cooling. So if freezing is not a problem, all water with a can of water pump lubricant. Also annually use a cleaner to remove the scale. I believe that some of the listers that were racing, said they used 100% water. But they didn't race in the winter. The in-line coolant filters are also a good idea. Green Goo is nasty stuff. It participates out into insoluble silicates which can act as abrasives on the pump and seals. Radiator shops can show you radiators that are so plugged that no amount of flushing removes the stuff. Of course the silicates are insoluble. Customers say 'But I flush every year'. Yep they sure do. Adding a fresh batch of silicon to make more silicates. In theory, the eythylene glycohol in antifreeze never wears out. It's the lubricants that do And the slicone particates out. Most shops flush and fill with used antifreeze. They filter the old, add lubricant, and silicone and it back in your car. Not in my car. In a message dated 6/20/2008 9:43:05 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tigerlat70@comcast.net writes: What do you recommend from this to us Tiger group? Good info Steve **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.4.1/1510 - Release Date: 6/19/2008 3:21 PM **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 21:34:04 2008 From: "Andy Walker" To: "Duke Samouce" , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:34:09 -0500 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo Yep...my wife and I just got back from seeing "Get Smart," too. Let me echo the other three posters when I say that, for those of you who were hoping for a big boost in the image and value of the Tiger like the '67 Shelbys experienced after "Gone in 60 Seconds," you're in for a big disappointment. The Tiger only shows up in two scenes, none of which is particularly flattering, and both of which were too short and totally inconsequential. Being a fan of the original series, I was a little (just slightly) disappointed in the movie; it just didn't have the laughs that the original series had. It was entertaining, nonetheless. Driving my Tiger and "loving it," Andy Walker Edmond, OK B381001600LRXFE B9006857LRX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duke Samouce" To: Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 7:35 PM Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo >I just saw it too. > > Funny movie. Big disappointment on the Tiger (Alpine) exposure. The car > no > sooner starts (sounding like a 4 banger) than it breaks down and a Ghia is > its replacement. Will do nothing for our cars image. > > Duke > > -----Original Message----- > From: tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net > [mailto:tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of > Jerry > Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:23 PM > To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET > Subject: [Tigers] (no subject) > > List, > > > > Well, just saw the movie Get Smart. If you set aside all reality and > understand that it's (and always was) a spoof on all kinds of spy, > espionage, intelligence-type movies. > > then you might enjoy the movie. I enjoyed it. And Ann Hathaway isn't that > hard to look at either. But that's just my opinion. > > > > The Tiger scene is a bit short, but I think he had the old SU fuel pump > problem. The shots of the Ghia, and Opel were a bit longer, but all were > too short. It would be nice if this raises the value of our Tigers, but > I'm > afraid the exposure was too short to have much effect. > > > > Jerry Christopherson > You are subscribed as wsamouce@kc.rr.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as awtiger@cox.net > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 21:42:58 2008 From: Chris Thompson To: Andy Walker Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 23:42:55 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo Get Smart may well be one of the reasons our cars get no respect. It would have been different if James Bond had driven a Tiger. The Tiger was (mistakenly) used as the "spoof" of a sports car in the *spoof* of the James Bond genre that was Get Smart. But I always liked Get Smart better than James Bond anyway, so I'm cool with that ;-) Regards, Chris Andy Walker wrote: > Yep...my wife and I just got back from seeing "Get Smart," too. Let me echo > the other three posters when I say that, for those of you who were hoping > for a big boost in the image and value of the Tiger like the '67 Shelbys > experienced after "Gone in 60 Seconds," you're in for a big disappointment. > The Tiger only shows up in two scenes, none of which is particularly > flattering, and both of which were too short and totally inconsequential. > Being a fan of the original series, I was a little (just slightly) > disappointed in the movie; it just didn't have the laughs that the original > series had. It was entertaining, nonetheless. > > Driving my Tiger and "loving it," > Andy Walker > Edmond, OK > B381001600LRXFE > B9006857LRX _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 22:07:34 2008 From: "CSX2282" To: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:07:38 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Snake Oil or not As mentioned in a previous response, I use a mixture of 50/50% distilled water and antifreeze. One response I saw recommend the use of distilled rather than deioniozed water. I have yet to see a description of the difference between the two or why one is preferable. I'd be very interested in knowing what the difference is. Also, keep in mind that the instance you pour ion free water, of whatever type, into your cooling system, it will instantly become ionized. These ions come from the various metals in your cooling system- copper (brass), aluminum and iron, etc. Roland _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 22:47:59 2008 From: Steve Sage To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:47:33 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Holley Gasket Sealing Hello Sunbeamers: The Tiger is just about ready for the trip to Tiger's United next week. I am thinking of re-installing my Adjust A Jet plate on my Holley carb. For anyone who doesn't know, you take out the jets and add the Adjust A Jet plate between the fuel bowl and the metering plate. The kit gives you longer bolts and a longer accelerator pump lever to cover the added distance. The idea is that now you can adjust your jet size with the engine running by just turning the Adjust A Jet valve with a screw driver. When you're at high altitude and need to, just lean it out a bit. When you get back down to lower altitude, just turn the valve back the other way. No more taking the carb apart to change jets. Last time I messed up the Adjust A Jet install by tightening the longer fuel bowl bolts too much (since I couldn't get the gasket to seal) which distorted the gaskets and forced material into the accelerator pump vacuum passage, which really messed things up. I reverted back to the stock Holley set up but I had to take the carb apart, clean it out, and install new gaskets. It's running great again but I would like to try the Adjust A Jet again. What's the best way to get those Holley fuel bowls to seal properly, and know you haven't tightened things too much? With the Adjust A Jet there are two gaskets to seal; the original, and the second, unique gasket between the Adjust A Jet and the metering block. Steve Sage E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10090e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 23:32:48 2008 From: Tony Somebody To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET, Steve Sage Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [Tigers] Holley Gasket Sealing Dont over torque when tightening AND I would buy an extra set of gaskets to take with- that way you wont need them BUT go witout a spare set and see if you are lucky enough someone else has some. TTT --- On Fri, 6/20/08, Steve Sage wrote: > From: Steve Sage > Subject: [Tigers] Holley Gasket Sealing > To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET > Date: Friday, June 20, 2008, 11:47 PM > Hello Sunbeamers: > The Tiger is just about ready for the trip to Tiger's > United next week. > > I am thinking of re-installing my Adjust A Jet plate on my > Holley carb. > For anyone who doesn't know, you take out the jets and > add the Adjust A > Jet plate between the fuel bowl and the metering plate. The > kit gives > you longer bolts and a longer accelerator pump lever to > cover the added > distance. The idea is that now you can adjust your jet size > with the > engine running by just turning the Adjust A Jet valve with > a screw > driver. When you're at high altitude and need to, just > lean it out a > bit. When you get back down to lower altitude, just turn > the valve back > the other way. No more taking the carb apart to change > jets. > > Last time I messed up the Adjust A Jet install by > tightening the longer > fuel bowl bolts too much (since I couldn't get the > gasket to seal) which > distorted the gaskets and forced material into the > accelerator pump > vacuum passage, which really messed things up. I reverted > back to the > stock Holley set up but I had to take the carb apart, clean > it out, and > install new gaskets. It's running great again but I > would like to try > the Adjust A Jet again. > > What's the best way to get those Holley fuel bowls to > seal properly, and > know you haven't tightened things too much? With the > Adjust A Jet there > are two gaskets to seal; the original, and the second, > unique gasket > between the Adjust A Jet and the metering block. > > Steve Sage > > > > > E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) > Database version: 5.10090e > http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ > _______________________________________________ > Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html > > You are subscribed as achd73@yahoo.com > > Tigers@autox.team.net > http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers > > http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Fri Jun 20 23:57:21 2008 From: "Buck Trippel" To: "Steve Sage" , Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:57:19 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Holley Gasket Sealing Steve, I had the bright idea of running the Holley Adjust A Jets in our SCF race Tiger. It worked fine on the dyno. However, on the track the Adjust A Jet plates caused the engine to stall under hard braking (i.e. every turn). As driver John Morton told me, "You took something that didn't need fixing & fixed it & now it really needs fixing." So, while everyone else went to a dinner party, I was back at the track late Saturday night swapping carbs & rejetting. That was the last time I messed with those plates. Which brings me to this question: Have you used these before in an Autocross? Buck Trippel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Sage" To: Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:47 PM Subject: [Tigers] Holley Gasket Sealing > Hello Sunbeamers: > The Tiger is just about ready for the trip to Tiger's United next week. > > I am thinking of re-installing my Adjust A Jet plate on my Holley carb. > For anyone who doesn't know, you take out the jets and add the Adjust A > Jet plate between the fuel bowl and the metering plate. The kit gives > you longer bolts and a longer accelerator pump lever to cover the added > distance. The idea is that now you can adjust your jet size with the > engine running by just turning the Adjust A Jet valve with a screw > driver. When you're at high altitude and need to, just lean it out a > bit. When you get back down to lower altitude, just turn the valve back > the other way. No more taking the carb apart to change jets. > > Last time I messed up the Adjust A Jet install by tightening the longer > fuel bowl bolts too much (since I couldn't get the gasket to seal) which > distorted the gaskets and forced material into the accelerator pump > vacuum passage, which really messed things up. I reverted back to the > stock Holley set up but I had to take the carb apart, clean it out, and > install new gaskets. It's running great again but I would like to try > the Adjust A Jet again. > > What's the best way to get those Holley fuel bowls to seal properly, and > know you haven't tightened things too much? With the Adjust A Jet there > are two gaskets to seal; the original, and the second, unique gasket > between the Adjust A Jet and the metering block. > > Steve Sage _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 21 05:48:11 2008 From: "Duke Samouce" To: Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:45:04 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI Morning all, I have seen a few post about guys getting their Tiger ready for TU next week. I am wondering who is driving some distance and where you are starting from. I am driving my Tiger from Kansas City which will be 1567 mile to the show. I will be departing Kansas City at 0600 on the 25th and stopping at Grand Junction, CO for some sleep. Up around 0430 on the 26th for the final drive into Big Bear hopping to arrive around 1200. I will be on I70 then I15. Anyone else planning on a long drive? Duke _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 21 05:54:51 2008 From: CoolVT@aol.com To: wsamouce@kc.rr.com, TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:54:54 EDT Subject: Re: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI If you do 1,500 miles in two days in a Tiger you deserve a reward. Mark L **************Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars. (http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007) _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 21 05:56:53 2008 From: "Duke Samouce" To: "'Duke Samouce'" , Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:53:22 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI That's "hoping" ;>) -----Original Message----- From: tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net [mailto:tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Duke Samouce Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 6:45 AM To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Subject: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI Morning all, I have seen a few post about guys getting their Tiger ready for TU next week. I am wondering who is driving some distance and where you are starting from. I am driving my Tiger from Kansas City which will be 1567 mile to the show. I will be departing Kansas City at 0600 on the 25th and stopping at Grand Junction, CO for some sleep. Up around 0430 on the 26th for the final drive into Big Bear hopping to arrive around 1200. I will be on I70 then I15. Anyone else planning on a long drive? Duke You are subscribed as wsamouce@kc.rr.com Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 21 05:59:39 2008 From: "Duke Samouce" To: , Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:56:59 -0400 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI Or to be committed. I just finished the cruise control install yesterday and that should help. I also made a "ice cooler" A/C unit that will be on the passenger floor. Should be fun. Duke From: CoolVT@aol.com [mailto:CoolVT@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, June 21, 2008 7:55 AM To: wsamouce@kc.rr.com; TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET Subject: Re: [Tigers] Driving to TU XXXI If you do 1,500 miles in two days in a Tiger you deserve a reward. Mark L _____ Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars . _______________________________________________ Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html Tigers@autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers http://www.team.net/archive From tigers-bounces+mharc=autox.team.net@autox.team.net Sat Jun 21 11:27:07 2008 From: sunbeam john To: Duke Samouce , Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:27:15 -0700 Subject: Re: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo I agree not enough Tiger but pretty good movie. John> From: wsamouce@kc.rr.com> To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET> Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:35:41 -0400> Subject: [Tigers] Get Smart Tiger cameo> > I just saw it too.> > Funny movie. Big disappointment on the Tiger (Alpine) exposure. The car no> sooner starts (sounding like a 4 banger) than it breaks down and a Ghia is> its replacement. Will do nothing for our cars image.> > Duke> > -----Original Message-----> From: tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net> [mailto:tigers-bounces+wsamouce=kc.rr.com@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jerry> Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 9:23 PM> To: TIGERS@AUTOX.TEAM.NET> Subject: [Tigers] (no subject)> > List,> > > > Well, just saw the movie Get Smart. If you set aside all reality and> understand that it's (and always was) a spoof on all kinds of spy,> espionage, intelligence-type movies.> > then you might enjoy the movie. I enjoyed it. And Ann Hathaway isn't that> hard to look at either. But that's just my opinion.> > > > The Tiger scene is a bit short, but I think he had the old SU fuel pump> problem. The shots of the Ghia, and Opel were a bit longer, but all were> too short. It would be nice if this raises the value of our Tigers, but I'm> afraid the exposure was too short to have much effect.> > > > Jerry Christopherson > You are subscribed as wsamouce@kc.rr.com> > Tigers@autox.team.net> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers> > http://www.team.net/archive> _______________________________________________> Support Team.Net http://www.