Subject: [DMVR] Re: $ vs. skill

From: "Bell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:09:30 -0500

From what I read on other boards - always subject to hearsay problems - the 
Carrera GT driver was quite experienced.  This was a Ferrari club event, not 
using corner workers, and with a configuration at Calif Speedway that has a 
very short, rather blind, pit-out blend area rather than the usual long one 
on the oval.  The driver swerved to avoid a car entering from pit-out, and 
lost it at about 150 mph.  The entering car reportedly messed up the timing 
somewhat in its entrance to the track - some confusion between a course 
marshal and someone in the car as to whether to go ahead or hold up.

Sounds like the problems were with the event organizers on track 
configuration and staffing, more than anything else, and somewhat with the 
entering car.  That and driving a street car, however fancy and fast, at 
race car speeds without race car protection.
Fred
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Today's Topics:

   1. More Money Than Skill (Karl Thacker)

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Message: 1
Reply-To: <[email-masked]>
From: "Karl Thacker" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:48:56 -0500
Subject: [DMVR] More Money Than Skill

http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html#

Karl T

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name of winmail.dat]

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From: Karl T <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 12:28:42 -0700 (PDT)

True - heard the same.  

Guess what I should have said was '$$ vs. Brains'.  

I had heard he was doing 100mph, but either way, 100 or 150 in a street
car with no cage, on a track, is just asking for problems.

Karl

---

From: Bill Hart <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 14:56:36 -0500

I think Fred's point was that things can happen no matter how much  
money, skill, or brains you have.  It doesn't matter that the driver  
was experienced if the pit marshall screws up.

There are lots of stories floating around about what "really  
happened" based on various view points and people who knew them.

What it boils down to was that this guy had a fast car on a race  
track (seems like a pretty smart move so far) and something happened  
that caused him to lose control.  In the end he died doing what he  
loved.

This whole money/brains versus skill is such a moot point, accidents  
happen, humans err, they're just facts of life and we take our  
chances whether behind the wheel on the track, on the street, or just  
walking out the front door.  Heck sleeping in your bed can be  
dangerous depending on where your bed happens to be in relation to  
falling trees and things, I don't think anyone would say you were  
lacking in skill money or brains if a tree fell on you in your sleep ...

I would hope that if some such fate were to await me that the cost of  
the car I was driving would have very little bearing on how people  
viewed the incident.  I would hope that people would realize I was  
doing something I love to do and cinch their belts an extra time  
before heading out to do something they love.

Bill

"Bang a drum for tomorrow, bang a drum for the past.
Bang a drum for the heroes who walk on by"
   -- Chris LeDoux  1948-2005

On Jun 6, 2005, at 2:28 PM, Karl T wrote:

>> From what I read on other boards - always subject to hearsay  
>> problems -
>> the
>> Carrera GT driver was quite experienced.  This was a Ferrari club  
>> event,
>> not
>> very short, rather blind, pit-out blend area rather than the usual  
>> long
>> one
>> on the oval.  The driver swerved to avoid a car entering from pit- 
>> out,
>> and
>> configuration and staffing, more than anything else, and somewhat  
>> with
>> the

---

From: "Jeff Trier" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 20:22:20 -0500

I have to disagree with the statement. According to other websites I have been
reading, the driver of the car was an experienced OTC driver that had some
nice toys. I believe there are more at fault in this accident than the driver.
Apparently the track entry point was in the middle/end of the straight and a
pit marshal allowed another car to enter the track in front of the Porsche.
Haven't been able to read anywhere exactly what happened, as everyone has
there own opinion/idea. I am by no means an expert driver, and any one who has
seen me autocross knows that as I really suck, but I just hate it when people
jump to conclusions about someone wrecking a high dollar exotic or anything
for that matter. I know quite a few people who think the same about Corvette
drivers.

Sad situation regardless of fault.

My source of info on this crash can be seen at corner-carvers.com. I'm sure
there are more auto/ racing related sites that are discussing this same topic
with varying degrees of intelligence.  Interesting reading.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/generaldiscussion<http://corner-carvers.com/
forums/generaldiscussion>  (apologize if link doesn't work-but should be easy
to find in the general discussion forum.)

(also apologize if I offend anyone as it was not my intention)

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  Message: 1
  Reply-To: <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
  From: "Karl Thacker" <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
  To: <[email-masked]<mailto:[email-masked]>>
  Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 21:48:56 -0500
  Subject: [DMVR] More Money Than Skill

  http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html<http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562
/detail.html>#

  Karl T

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From: "Karl Thacker" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2005 22:03:28 -0500

I am not going to get into any additional discussions to justify my opinion.

Be it a $5,000 car, or a $275,000 car, the simple fact is the guy took a
street car onto a race track and drove it at race speeds without race-level
safety equipment.  The question isn't 'Could he take a corner at XXX mph',
it is 'Could the car take a guardrail at XXX mph'.  I think commons sense
would have said beforehand that it couldn't.  That being said, the powers
that be apparently decided to let the cars run at will.  The legal system
will most likely be called-upon to decide if this should have been allowed.

There are reasons the SCCA & local regions restrict the speeds and
activities of cars at events such as an HPCCC.  To reduce the chance of an
outcome such as this is one of the reasons why.  This doesn't have think to
do with his level of ability or experience.  It has to do with the car's
level of survivability.

I guess 'amusing' is not the word I'd use, but I certainly feel no apathy
for him.  For his family and his passenger?  Sure.

Karl T

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Jeff Trier
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 8:22 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: [DMVR] Re: more money than skill

I have to disagree with the statement. According to other websites I have
been
reading, the driver of the car was an experienced OTC driver that had some
nice toys. I believe there are more at fault in this accident than the
driver.
Apparently the track entry point was in the middle/end of the straight and a
pit marshal allowed another car to enter the track in front of the Porsche.
Haven't been able to read anywhere exactly what happened, as everyone has
there own opinion/idea. I am by no means an expert driver, and any one who
has
seen me autocross knows that as I really suck, but I just hate it when
people
jump to conclusions about someone wrecking a high dollar exotic or anything
for that matter. I know quite a few people who think the same about Corvette
drivers.

My source of info on this crash can be seen at corner-carvers.com. I'm sure
there are more auto/ racing related sites that are discussing this same
topic
with varying degrees of intelligence.  Interesting reading.

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/generaldiscussion<http://corner-carvers.com
/
forums/generaldiscussion>  (apologize if link doesn't work-but should be
easy
to find in the general discussion forum.)

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  Sent: Monday, June 06, 2005 1:00 PM
  Subject: DMVR digest, Vol 1 #206 - 1 msg

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  http://www.nbc4.tv/news/4562562/detail.html<http://www.nbc4.tv/news/456256
2
/detail.html>#

  Karl T

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From: "Eric Linnhoff" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 08:00:51 -0400

----- Original Message -----
> activities of cars at events such as an HPCCC.
==================================
Well, actually, that may have changed.  According to "insider sources",
under the new SCCA Time Trials program there are no longer any required
speed limits even at the "lowest" level of these Time Trial on-track events.

Eric