Subject: Re: [DMVR] Drifting?

From: "Rhett Farnum" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:19:57 -0600

I was also thinking about that Chanda, and I do agree that we could possibly 
pull in a few too many yahoo's who think they know what they are doing but 
really only know how to throw a car around.

Ric, if we were to have fun runs I personally would be more than happy to 
stay and help out the chairs pack everything up.

Peace Out,
Rhett
Rocco_crossing
'83 Rocco (DEAD!!) :-(  Now what to do???

>From: Chanda Hufford <[email-masked]>
>To: Rhett Farnum <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: [DMVR] Drifting?
>Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 07:58:41 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>--- Rhett Farnum <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > I was kind of wondering if DMVR was going
> > to start a drifting
> > section or if we could just maybe after an autocross
> > event if we could
> > "drift" the autoX course or something.
>
>I personally think it's silly and dangerous and I'd be
>perfectly happy if the DMVR didn't pursue this. I just
>think it's going to attract too many hot shots that
>aren't going to have enough knowledge to do it safely.
>Just my $.02 worth.
>
>Chanda
>
>
>=====
>~*1996 Plymouth ACR Sedan*~
>"Wahoo" / 93,000 Miles / #44 in STSL
>-->2003 Buell Blast<--
>"The Purple Cricket" / Just over 100 miles :)
>
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---

From: "Eric Linnhoff" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:36:05 -0500

That reminds me.  As the KCRegion Solo Chair we (KCR) need to come up with
some sort of policy regarding "drifting behavior" at Solo2 events.  I might
suggest that other regions do so as well.

Eric Linnhoff in KC
'98 Mini-Viper  #69 STS

---

From: Sam & Greg Scharnberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:47:43 -0600

It is unsafe behavior and we have seen it before.  Red flag and told to stop

If the unsafe behavior is repeated then the person is told to leave.

Greg

---

From: Bill Hart <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:27:14 -0600

> If the unsafe behavior is repeated then the person is told to leave.

This sort of brings up a sore point that I've discussed with a few 
people.

I'm in no way condoning drifting, unless it involves large masses of 
solid water, BUT:

Isn't driving at the limits (yours or the cars) whether it's a 
controlled environment or not inherently dangerous ?

Yes, the risks can be minimized, but there's still an element of danger 
to everyone and everything around.

Going to a driving event is  a place where you can push the car and 
yourself to the limits and explore behavior when you are at these 
limits without endangering the general public.

I have attended fewer and fewer DMVR events over the last few years 
because of statements like the above that make you wonder when you are 
going to be called because you tried something different and it didn't 
work.  No, I've never been "talked to" about my driving style or 
anything, but there's always the raised eyebrows and the feeling of 
"doing something wrong" when you botch a corner and end up with a 
smokey exit through the gates .

When the general feeling of the driver's meeting is "If you want to 
screw around, go out to the street," I just can't get on board with 
that.  There are varying degrees of course, but to a certain degree 
isn't that what we're all there for ?

Just my $.02
Bill

---

From: Sam & Greg Scharnberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2004 11:53:11 -0600

Bill:

You are correct about the danger to the vehicle, driver and workers.  We 
try to minimize this but it can not be eliminated.  3,000 lbs or more in 
motion has the potential to cause damage.  We have seen curbs hit, fences 
hit, and cars rolled and totalled.  In all of the cases I am aware of, the 
driver made a costly mistake but was not ostracized for "bad behavior".

The one thing that is not acceptable is danger to Spectators!

Most of the time when someone was "talked to", it involved leaving the 
course and entering an area containing other cars and spectators at what 
was considered an unsafe speed.  In a few cases, someone made a mistake on 
the course and then proceeded to "drift in circles" with lots of smoke 
endangering workers.

Of course all of this is just my opinion.

Greg Scharnberg
(Been sideways at 80 mph)

At 11:27 AM 2/4/2004 -0600, Bill Hart wrote:
>This sort of brings up a sore point that I've discussed with a few people.
>
>I'm in no way condoning drifting, unless it involves large masses of solid 
>water, BUT:
>
>Isn't driving at the limits (yours or the cars) whether it's a controlled 
>environment or not inherently dangerous ?
>
>Yes, the risks can be minimized, but there's still an element of danger to 
>everyone and everything around.
>
>yourself to the limits and explore behavior when you are at these limits 
>without endangering the general public.
>
>work.  No, I've never been "talked to" about my driving style or anything, 
>but there's always the raised eyebrows and the feeling of "doing something 
>wrong" when you botch a corner and end up with a smokey exit through the 
>gates .
>
>When the general feeling of the driver's meeting is "If you want to screw 
>around, go out to the street," I just can't get on board with that.  There 
>are varying degrees of course, but to a certain degree isn't that what 
>we're all there for ?
>
>Just my $.02
>Bill

---

From: Ric Johnson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:05:18 -0600

>everyone and everything around.

I for one am certainly surprised by your comments, and feel that there is a 
certain lack of communication evident. Yes there are dangers, and as a 
licensed Solo Safety Steward and an autocrosser with 34 years of experience 
I've seen quite a spectrum of driving behavior. As Rick Talbot notes we 
have an obligation to make things as safe as possible for everyone involved 
in our events whether on the course or just watching. We know there will be 
instances where people will exceed their personal or their car's limits but 
it's our job to minimize the dangers to them and others or we will no 
longer have a sport. We've all done something stupid at one time or another 
(just ask Rick where his nickname "Flip" came from) and we recognize that 
as being part of the sport we've chosen. It's certainly subjective but I 
think most anyone who has been around for a while can differentiate between 
someone who makes an honest mistake from someone who is driving recklessly 
and stupidly to the point of being a danger to themselves and others. It's 
rare that someone needs or receives a "talking to", but when it happens 
it's for everyone's benefit. In all my years I can only recall one instance 
of someone being told to pack up and leave, an idiot in a supercharged Nova 
at an event in Oskaloosa who chose to ignore any semblance of following the 
course and instead chose to use his time on course to perform a series of 
high speed burnouts and lurid slides (gee, sort of like drifting when you 
think about it). In most cases where someone is driving in an unsafe manner 
its usually only necessary to point out that not only are they putting 
themselves and others at risk, but that all that wheel spinning and sliding 
is NOT going to result in a quick time.

>wrong" when you botch a corner and end up with a smokey exit through the 

I think there is an inherent contradiction in what you are saying here. You 
admit you've screwed up, but no one called you on it. Do you think that 
could be because those officiating recognized your faux pas for what it 
was, a momentary mistake in an otherwise sane run which wasn't likely to be 
repeated? Perhaps that feeling of "doing something wrong" was because you 
obviously did, recognized it, and learned from it thus obviating the 
"talking to"? There's a big difference in my eye between an instance like 
that versus an inexperienced driver who is all right foot and has not yet 
learned the concept of "knowing when to say when". Believe me, none of us 
are eager to have that conversation with someone who is way over their 
head, but when it does happen I think you'd find in the majority of cases 
it's not so much  the "verbal spanking" that you seem to fear, but is 
generally more in the line of a friendly offer of some constructive 
criticism aimed at helping the person develop a more effective and safe 
style. I know that's how I've always approached it. Most of the time that's 
all that's needed and most of those folks go on to be much better drivers 
once they quit trying "movie chase scene" mode and settle down to something 
that actually works in the real world. I'm sorry you perceive us as a bunch 
of safety Nazis, because I don't think any of us would regularly 
participate in a sport like this if we were. The thrill of this sport is in 
exploring the limit (yes, even in an ancient MGB <G>) and it's something I 
enjoy greatly, yet take very seriously. I don't want that monthly "fix" 
taken from me by the actions of someone who is only there to "screw around" 
and show off  without regard to the risk to themselves, spectators, or the 
property we've been allowed to use. Those are the drivers that jeopardize 
our sport and are likely to be encouraged to change their attitude and/or 
style. And it's only the most obtuse of those who would be encouraged to 
find some other kids to play with.

I've seen you drive many times, and I think you're safe from being 
perceived as one of those.

Ric Johnson
Webmaster www.dmvrscca.org

---

From: Ric Johnson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2004 01:39:02 -0600

Oops, sent the last reply without responding to the last paragraph...

>are varying degrees of course, but to a certain degree isn't that what 

As I said in the previous message I take this sport pretty seriously, as I 
think most of the regular drivers do, but we're also there to have fun. The 
tone of the safety portion of the driver's meeting is an attempt to remind 
people of the serious side of what we're doing and hopefully forestall some 
of the potentially dangerous or just silly driving before it happens. 
Usually that's all that's needed. I'm sorry that you find it so onerous, 
but I think it's necessary and saves a number of potential individual 
conferences, thus making the event more fun for everyone.

Ric