[JONAT] Fees and splitting them up.

[Mark Stephenson]

Tony and Barry,

I wouldn't get too concerned. It's just something that you always have to take into account when in the U.S. and probably elsewhere. For example, if I had in my route book that there's a long stretch of road that you can haul a** on and that road ended up abruptly terminating blindly at the rim of the Grand Canyon and someone went airborne then bounced several thousand feet toward the bottom of the Canyon, there would be some liability there. Certainly they would come after me civilly for gross negligence and  perhaps even criminally for manslaughter. JONAT would also be a target.

By the same token, if JONAT promised something, like roadside assistance (which I know we aren't), and someone ended up stranded along the side of the road in Death Valley for hours, they might have a case against JONAT. It would be doubtful that they would have a case against the individual SC.

I like Gregory's suggestion that we just define it as a group of individuals deciding to take the same roads at the same time. There might be a few more things we could add to further define our lack of liability, but that pretty much sets the ground rules.

However, I do think we should be incorporated as a non-profit. It's not that complicated and it actually simplifies things regarding taxes, accounting, and liability. 

First and foremost, although the chances of someone taking legal action against JONAT or its SC's is negligible, there's always the chance that some sue-happy idiot will join us. An individual can name JONAT and all the SCs in a suit, which they generally do. However, with the corporate shield, it's an easy and relatively inexpensive matter to show your actions were taken as a member of the corporation not as an individual. That lets you off the hook (unless, as I said earlier, you do something so stupid that there is no way it would have been sanctioned by the corporation). Then the only entity left to sue is JONAT, which wouldn't have sufficient assets to pay for a lawyer much less pay damages. JONAT would declare bankruptcy. Considering that the chances of anyone recovering anything from any legal action are nil, that's an almost foolproof (and I use that term literally) deterrent. Unincorporated, it's our assets (house, car, bank accounts, retirement savings, etc.) on the line. That group that runs the two-day $50 event in Arizona that averaged 160 cars the last two years is incorporated.

Second, no one can really contract with JONAT if it's not a legal entity. A release of liability for participants with JONAT would be meaningless if there's no official JONAT.

Third is the tax aspect. If someone starts taking in a bunch of registration fees and running them through their personal account and they are audited, in the immortal words of Ricky Ricardo, "You are goin' to have a lot of 'splainin' to do." You'll probably resolve it, but you want to talk about complexity, you're going to have to find every JONAT receipt and justify it as a JONAT expense.

Fourth, with the corp, you'll be able to open a JONAT checking account, which will make accounting a whole lot easier. You'll know that all the JONAT checks were for JONAT expenses rather than having to figure out which ones from your own checkbook were JONAT. If you want to give a couple other high ranking people signing rights to the account, you wouldn't have accounting scattered across a bunch of personal accounts, and with checks they could buy necessities without having to spend their own money and be reimbursed. 

Setting up the corporation should be relatively painless. I'm not sure who would be considered the head honcho, but whoever it is, should be able to get a copy, or perhaps even a computer file, of their local JCNA club's incorporation papers. It should be a non-profit, which is what we would want. Your state usually has instructions on how to incorporate, the requirements for officers and meetings, and the fees which are usually only a couple hundred dollars. The club papers should make an excellent boilerplate, just requiring that you change the club references to "Jaguar Owners North America Tour" hereinafter known as "JONAT" and the names to the names of our principals. There may be come complexities about electing officers which we could simplify or change so that the SCs vote for officers, but beyond that, it should be almost cut and paste. 

Just some suggestions,

Mark - AZ

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jonat-admin@autox.team.net 
> [mailto:jonat-admin@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Anthony W. 
> (Tony) Parran
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2003 2:31 AM
> To: jonat@autox.team.net
> Subject: RE: [JONAT] Fees and splitting them up.
> 
> I'm not a smoker, but does anyone have a cigarette?  This is 
> getting scary.
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jonat-admin@autox.team.net [mailto:jonat-admin@autox.team.net]On
> Behalf Of Barry La Pointe
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 4:59 PM
> To: jonat@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [JONAT] Fees and splitting them up.
> 
> Greg & Mark, I must be a man of simple needs, (as long as one 
> of them is a
> V12 E Type). Hasn't anyone heard of "User Pay"? I will be 
> keeping my sector
> as simple as possible and applying the policy of "User Pay". 
> This way you
> can do what you want, eat what and where you want and stay 
> where you can
> afford. In addition to laying out the main route and an 
> alternate thru my
> sector I will also be supplying names and rates of the local 
> Hotels that
> respond, with one of them being the departure point as well 
> as restaurants
> in the area. I will also be setting up pre-arranged "Wine 
> Tasting" at a
> couple of the cottage wineries on the trip from Penticton to 
> Vernon as that
> is a short 100 KM trip. The tasting is free but you will pay for any
> purchases while there.I would hope that everyone insures both 
> themselves and
> their vehicles for any and all possible "illnesses". I intend 
> to have myself
> covered while in the USA. I know that we would like to cover 
> any and all
> possibilities but this talk of liability and suing is 
> starting to rattle and
> unnerve me.
> ----- Original Message ----- Barry La Pointe
> Okanagan Sector Coordinator
> Jaguar North American Tour
> 1972 "E Type" V12
> www.jonat.org
> From: "Dr Gregory Andrachuk" <v12-vdp@shaw.ca>
> To: <jonat@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 10:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [JONAT] Fees and splitting them up.
> 
> 
> > Mark:
> >     You clever guy! The complications of this formula 
> underline exactlly
> why
> > there should be no fee, and why this tour should not be 
> over-organised.
> The
> > thought of dealing with this has me ready to run for the 
> hills (in my
> > fastest Jaguar).
> >                                             Gregory
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Stephenson" <marks@jonat.org>
> > To: <jonat@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:26 PM
> > Subject: [JONAT] Fees and splitting them up.
> >
> >
> > : While I vote against a JONAT fee, preferring instead the 
> funds be raised
> > : through memorabilia sales and sponsorships, if we decide 
> to have one, I
> > : don't think the second sector should cost the registrant 
> who is doing
> only
> > : two, more than the first one. I think it should be $25 and $49.
> > :
> > : Here's another aspect of the JONAT fee I'm not sure was 
> considered. I
> can
> > : see some SCs coming up with extravagant plans while other 
> SCs keep it
> > : simple. If I'm one of the simple ones, I don't want to 
> see all the money
> I
> > : raised going to a sector on a spending spree. It would be 
> fair to me or
> > the
> > : people participating in my sector. Therefore, if we are 
> going to collect
> a
> > : JONAT fee, there should be a limit to what each sector 
> can spend. I
> think
> > : that a very large percentage, in the vicinity of 75%, should be
> earmarked
> > : for the sectors each entrant has signed up for. For 
> example, if I had 25
> > : people sign up for my sector, and five of them signed up 
> for my sector
> > : alone, ten of them signed up for two sectors, five signed 
> up for four
> > : sectors, and five signed up for the whole route, my 
> sector would have
> been
> > : responsible for generating 25($s paid)x5(# paid) + 49($s 
> paid)/2(split
> > among
> > : the # of sectors)x10(# paid) + 49/4x5 + 49/29(total # of 
> sectors)x5 =
> > : $439.70 of revenue. If I received 75% of that, it would 
> be $329.78.
> > : Sponsorships generated by me from within my area should 
> likewise be
> split
> > : 75/25 between the sector and JONAT Central. Sponsorships 
> obtained from
> > : outside the my area should be split 37.5/37.5/25 between 
> my sector, the
> > : sector closest to the sponsor, and HQ. That would be the 
> budget within
> > which
> > : I'd have to work.
> > :
> > : Another aspect for this to be as even-handed as possible, 
> sectors should
> > be
> > : about the same length of time. A five-day sector has a lot more to
> spread
> > : out over than than a two-day one. If anyone is taking 
> more than one
> sector
> > : and two or more are very short, we should consider 
> combining them or
> > : adjusting the calculations based on the time of the sector. A
> spreadsheet
> > : listing the entrants and sponsors for each sector could 
> have all these
> > : calculations embedded.
> > :
> > : If an event was scheduled at the hand-off point it would 
> have to be with
> > the
> > : mutual agreement of both SCs and the costs would be split 
> evenly unless
> > : otherwise agreed to by the two SCs.
> > :
> > : Money earmarked for each SC could be used to print the 
> route guide,
> create
> > : mementos, subsidize the cost of a dinner, pay some or all of the
> entrance
> > : fees into a place of interest, etc. A full accounting of 
> funds expended
> > : would have to be made to JONAT Central and any unused 
> funds or profits
> > : earned from the the sale of items bought with JONAT funds 
> would have to
> be
> > : returned. If the SC goes over budget, it comes out of the 
> SC's pocket.
> > :
> > : That's my suggestion on how things should be divided up 
> and run, if we
> > have
> > : a fee, which I oppose.
> > :
> > : Mark - AZ
> > :
> > : > -----Original Message-----
> > : > From: jonat-admin@autox.team.net
> > : > [mailto:jonat-admin@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Jamie - JONAT
> > : > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 11:14 AM
> > : > To: jonat@autox.team.net
> > : > Subject: Fees; was -: [JONAT] RE: FYI
> > : >
> > : > Okay, on the fee thing ...
> > : >
> > : > I put forward for a vote at this point the following fees:
> > : >
> > : > $25.00    -    Single Sector
> > : > $55.00    -    Two of more Sectors
> > : >
> > : <snip>
> > :
> > :
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> > : www.jonat.org
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