From t.w.jones1 at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 08:05:44 2020
From: t.w.jones1 at gmail.com (Tom Jones)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 10:05:44 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>

There are a few things to consider.

If a bear is your adversary, then a large caliber handgun is needed to get
the penetration to stop their advancement. .357 magnum, 10 mm or 44 magnum,
or a .30 caliber rifle or 12ga shotgun with slugs.  Anything less just may
focus your adversary?s attention on you and really make them mad.

Where are you most likely to be located when a visitor would appear and
where would your firearm be?  Are you back to the door working at a bench
or machine tool, under a car lift or on the floor on a creeper? Will you be
able to reach your firearm and access it before your visitor reaches you?
You don?t want them to corner you where you have no means of escape. Access
will determine the type of secure storage you?ll need. Carrying is fine if
you use a good quality holster with retention and trigger protection. Not
sure how you would present the gun on a creeper under a car though.

What direction would you most likely be firing? Towards your house or your
neighbors house? No matter what you chose to use, what?s behind your
potential target is your 2nd, hitting your target is the first and biggest
headache.

Revolvers are fine and most can be had in stainless as well as shotguns
made for boating use. A lot of semi autos have stainless slides and
barrels. Yes, maintenance, cleaning and oiling will be necessary. Even
stainless firearms have carbon steel parts that need protected.

A can of bear spray may provide enough of a diversion for your visitor so
you can get out of harms way.

Hopefully you keep a cell phone or landline phone close, heaven forbid, you
have a run in and need help.

It may be safer to close the door and find another means of fresh air and
ventilation.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:54 PM Paul Parkanzky via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> I don't think a revolver is a poor choice but there's no way I'd store
> an expensive revolver like that in the garage.
>
> I agree with other commenters that say that if he doesn't have any
> intention of carrying the firearm that there's no reason to compromise
> with a handgun. I'd choose either a cheap AR-pattern rifle or an
> inexpensive shotgun in one of Hornady's rapidsafe wall mounts or a
> similar secured wall mount.
>
> -Paul
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:50 AM Thomas FitzGibbon via Shop-talk
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Eric,
> >
> > I second the stainless steel revolver recommendation, maybe a Colt
> Python in .357 magnum.  I'd be concerned that a semi-auto would be more
> sensitive to that kind of environment, but either way it should not be too
> challenging.  Desiccant packs are going to be critical, especially to
> protect the ammo as the gun itself should be OK with a light coat of oil.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On March 29, 2020 at 8:38 PM Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'd recommend a stainless double-action revolver, attached to your
> person in a holster designed to make it impossible for the cylinder to
> revolve until the weapon is removed from the holster.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 12:58 PM eric--- via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I know I've asked some weird questions before, but I think this one
> will take the cake.
> >
> > I live out in the country, and often work well into the night with a
> large shop door open.  With having bears, coyotes and other large animals
> in the area, I got to thinking, it might be a good idea to keep a pistol in
> the garage to scare off any would be 'late night snackers."
> > Actually, I had a run-in the other night that made me think about this.
> >
> > So my question is, if I have a pistol, in a rapid access safe in a shop
> environment, what factors should I consider?  I understand that humidity
> will play a huge role, as will dust (I have to see how 'sealed' the safe
> is.)
> >
> > Is there anything I'm missing that I should consider?  I understand that
> I will most likely have to clean the weapon often, but is there anything I
> need to think about?
> >
> > Also, I'm open to suggestions for a weapon type.  I thinking an XD-M
> elite polymer hand gun.  With mostly composite parts.  Similar to a Glock.
> (Note, I don't have anything against Glock, I just never owned one.  I do
> have and love my XD however, so Glock isn't out of consideration.)
> >
> > I don't want this to turn into a 2nd amendment thread.  Just a 'what to
> consider' for leaving a pistol in a shop.
> >
> > Note, in my shop I do just about everything, metal work, wood work, car
> and heavy equipment work, etc.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/t.w.jones1 at gmail.com
>
>
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From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Thu Apr  2 08:36:38 2020
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (Neil Sherry)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:36:38 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>

This all seems alien to me ? living in the UK we don?t such ready access to firearms ? and even then basically only shotguns ? and also because we generally don?t have such wildlife, so please excuse my naivety!

So, my thoughts are more along the lines of finding other ways to deal with the potential threat. Would a bear or coyote be really after a meal, rather than a fight? So could there be a solution involving food? Maybe it would create a bigger problem long term, but could a well-stocked bin or something at least be a diversion to buy time (to get out or get your weapon). Throw a bar of chocolate. Or a jar of honey!

Neil

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tom Jones via Shop-talk
Sent: 02 April 2020 15:06
Cc: Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.

 

There are a few things to consider.

If a bear is your adversary, then a large caliber handgun is needed to get the penetration to stop their advancement. .357 magnum, 10 mm or 44 magnum, or a .30 caliber rifle or 12ga shotgun with slugs.  Anything less just may focus your adversary?s attention on you and really make them mad.

Where are you most likely to be located when a visitor would appear and where would your firearm be?  Are you back to the door working at a bench or machine tool, under a car lift or on the floor on a creeper? Will you be able to reach your firearm and access it before your visitor reaches you? You don?t want them to corner you where you have no means of escape. Access will determine the type of secure storage you?ll need. Carrying is fine if you use a good quality holster with retention and trigger protection. Not sure how you would present the gun on a creeper under a car though.

What direction would you most likely be firing? Towards your house or your neighbors house? No matter what you chose to use, what?s behind your potential target is your 2nd, hitting your target is the first and biggest headache.

Revolvers are fine and most can be had in stainless as well as shotguns made for boating use. A lot of semi autos have stainless slides and barrels. Yes, maintenance, cleaning and oiling will be necessary. Even stainless firearms have carbon steel parts that need protected.

A can of bear spray may provide enough of a diversion for your visitor so you can get out of harms way.

Hopefully you keep a cell phone or landline phone close, heaven forbid, you have a run in and need help.

It may be safer to close the door and find another means of fresh air and ventilation.

 

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:54 PM Paul Parkanzky via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:

I don't think a revolver is a poor choice but there's no way I'd store
an expensive revolver like that in the garage.

I agree with other commenters that say that if he doesn't have any
intention of carrying the firearm that there's no reason to compromise
with a handgun. I'd choose either a cheap AR-pattern rifle or an
inexpensive shotgun in one of Hornady's rapidsafe wall mounts or a
similar secured wall mount.

-Paul

On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:50 AM Thomas FitzGibbon via Shop-talk
<shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:
>
> Eric,
>
> I second the stainless steel revolver recommendation, maybe a Colt Python in .357 magnum.  I'd be concerned that a semi-auto would be more sensitive to that kind of environment, but either way it should not be too challenging.  Desiccant packs are going to be critical, especially to protect the ammo as the gun itself should be OK with a light coat of oil.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Tom
>
> On March 29, 2020 at 8:38 PM Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:
>
> I'd recommend a stainless double-action revolver, attached to your person in a holster designed to make it impossible for the cylinder to revolve until the weapon is removed from the holster.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 12:58 PM eric--- via Shop-talk < shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:
>
> Ok, I know I've asked some weird questions before, but I think this one will take the cake.
>
> I live out in the country, and often work well into the night with a large shop door open.  With having bears, coyotes and other large animals in the area, I got to thinking, it might be a good idea to keep a pistol in the garage to scare off any would be 'late night snackers."
> Actually, I had a run-in the other night that made me think about this.
>
> So my question is, if I have a pistol, in a rapid access safe in a shop environment, what factors should I consider?  I understand that humidity will play a huge role, as will dust (I have to see how 'sealed' the safe is.)
>
> Is there anything I'm missing that I should consider?  I understand that I will most likely have to clean the weapon often, but is there anything I need to think about?
>
> Also, I'm open to suggestions for a weapon type.  I thinking an XD-M elite polymer hand gun.  With mostly composite parts.  Similar to a Glock.  (Note, I don't have anything against Glock, I just never owned one.  I do have and love my XD however, so Glock isn't out of consideration.)
>
> I don't want this to turn into a 2nd amendment thread.  Just a 'what to consider' for leaving a pistol in a shop.
>
> Note, in my shop I do just about everything, metal work, wood work, car and heavy equipment work, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  2 10:15:46 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 09:15:46 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <9c689ffd-7d77-ceea-b5f6-f990976aadeb@comcast.net>

Coyotes are not to be trifled with, and bears have an incredible sense 
of smell (they might smell the greasy hamburger you had for lunch, or 
its wrapper):

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Coyote-attack-girl-Dublin-park-hospital-injury-15172995.php 


Note Dublin is an upscale 'Silicon Valley' community; the little girl 
will (possibly) have to endure a rabies protocol treatment if they don't 
find the offending coyote.

I think they're mostly solitary, but if they ganged-up like wolves 
they'd be a real problem; they've largely prospered shadowing humans for 
garbage or whatever food-like stuff we leave hanging around. There are 
quite a few roaming the (mostly empty) streets of San Francisco.

Bob

On 4/2/2020 7:36 AM, Neil Sherry via Shop-talk wrote:
>
> This all seems alien to me ? living in the UK we don?t such ready 
> access to firearms ? and even then basically only shotguns ? and also 
> because we generally don?t have such wildlife, so please excuse my 
> naivety!
>
> So, my thoughts are more along the lines of finding other ways to deal 
> with the potential threat. Would a bear or coyote be really after a 
> meal, rather than a fight? So could there be a solution involving 
> food? Maybe it would create a bigger problem long term, but could a 
> well-stocked bin or something at least be a diversion to buy time (to 
> get out or get your weapon). Throw a bar of chocolate. Or a jar of honey!
>
> Neil
>
>

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From marka at maracing.com  Thu Apr  2 11:28:53 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 13:28:53 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGP06gK9H7Nm_w6gL9a1AuFD+8fu+pAkzYSZpgxW-2ExLw@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

This seems a lot more like the time I bought a nice cordless chain saw to
cut up the tree that fell down in my yard once.

I.e. I probably wasn't going to need the saw after I cleaned up the tree
and I could have just borrowed the neighbor's saw.  But I wanted one and
had a great excuse.

:)

I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough to be
dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by choice.  And even if said
thing occurred, as others have mentioned I dunno what the heck 'regular'
pistol calibers would do in terms of a bear.  The idea of a half dozen air
horns scattered around seems a hell of a lot more likely to actually help
you.

If you want a new pistol, just buy one.  :)

Mark

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 10:36 AM Neil Sherry via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> This all seems alien to me ? living in the UK we don?t such ready access
> to firearms ? and even then basically only shotguns ? and also because we
> generally don?t have such wildlife, so please excuse my naivety!
>
> So, my thoughts are more along the lines of finding other ways to deal
> with the potential threat. Would a bear or coyote be really after a meal,
> rather than a fight? So could there be a solution involving food? Maybe it
> would create a bigger problem long term, but could a well-stocked bin or
> something at least be a diversion to buy time (to get out or get your
> weapon). Throw a bar of chocolate. Or a jar of honey!
>
> Neil
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Tom
> Jones via Shop-talk
> *Sent:* 02 April 2020 15:06
> *Cc:* Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked
> here.
>
>
>
> There are a few things to consider.
>
> If a bear is your adversary, then a large caliber handgun is needed to get
> the penetration to stop their advancement. .357 magnum, 10 mm or 44 magnum,
> or a .30 caliber rifle or 12ga shotgun with slugs.  Anything less just may
> focus your adversary?s attention on you and really make them mad.
>
> Where are you most likely to be located when a visitor would appear and
> where would your firearm be?  Are you back to the door working at a bench
> or machine tool, under a car lift or on the floor on a creeper? Will you be
> able to reach your firearm and access it before your visitor reaches you?
> You don?t want them to corner you where you have no means of escape. Access
> will determine the type of secure storage you?ll need. Carrying is fine if
> you use a good quality holster with retention and trigger protection. Not
> sure how you would present the gun on a creeper under a car though.
>
> What direction would you most likely be firing? Towards your house or your
> neighbors house? No matter what you chose to use, what?s behind your
> potential target is your 2nd, hitting your target is the first and
> biggest headache.
>
> Revolvers are fine and most can be had in stainless as well as shotguns
> made for boating use. A lot of semi autos have stainless slides and
> barrels. Yes, maintenance, cleaning and oiling will be necessary. Even
> stainless firearms have carbon steel parts that need protected.
>
> A can of bear spray may provide enough of a diversion for your visitor so
> you can get out of harms way.
>
> Hopefully you keep a cell phone or landline phone close, heaven forbid,
> you have a run in and need help.
>
> It may be safer to close the door and find another means of fresh air and
> ventilation.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:54 PM Paul Parkanzky via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> I don't think a revolver is a poor choice but there's no way I'd store
> an expensive revolver like that in the garage.
>
> I agree with other commenters that say that if he doesn't have any
> intention of carrying the firearm that there's no reason to compromise
> with a handgun. I'd choose either a cheap AR-pattern rifle or an
> inexpensive shotgun in one of Hornady's rapidsafe wall mounts or a
> similar secured wall mount.
>
> -Paul
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:50 AM Thomas FitzGibbon via Shop-talk
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Eric,
> >
> > I second the stainless steel revolver recommendation, maybe a Colt
> Python in .357 magnum.  I'd be concerned that a semi-auto would be more
> sensitive to that kind of environment, but either way it should not be too
> challenging.  Desiccant packs are going to be critical, especially to
> protect the ammo as the gun itself should be OK with a light coat of oil.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On March 29, 2020 at 8:38 PM Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'd recommend a stainless double-action revolver, attached to your
> person in a holster designed to make it impossible for the cylinder to
> revolve until the weapon is removed from the holster.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 12:58 PM eric--- via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I know I've asked some weird questions before, but I think this one
> will take the cake.
> >
> > I live out in the country, and often work well into the night with a
> large shop door open.  With having bears, coyotes and other large animals
> in the area, I got to thinking, it might be a good idea to keep a pistol in
> the garage to scare off any would be 'late night snackers."
> > Actually, I had a run-in the other night that made me think about this.
> >
> > So my question is, if I have a pistol, in a rapid access safe in a shop
> environment, what factors should I consider?  I understand that humidity
> will play a huge role, as will dust (I have to see how 'sealed' the safe
> is.)
> >
> > Is there anything I'm missing that I should consider?  I understand that
> I will most likely have to clean the weapon often, but is there anything I
> need to think about?
> >
> > Also, I'm open to suggestions for a weapon type.  I thinking an XD-M
> elite polymer hand gun.  With mostly composite parts.  Similar to a Glock.
> (Note, I don't have anything against Glock, I just never owned one.  I do
> have and love my XD however, so Glock isn't out of consideration.)
> >
> > I don't want this to turn into a 2nd amendment thread.  Just a 'what to
> consider' for leaving a pistol in a shop.
> >
> > Note, in my shop I do just about everything, metal work, wood work, car
> and heavy equipment work, etc.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/t.w.jones1 at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  2 13:14:03 2020
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:14:03 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGP06gK9H7Nm_w6gL9a1AuFD+8fu+pAkzYSZpgxW-2ExLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
 <CAAoSWGP06gK9H7Nm_w6gL9a1AuFD+8fu+pAkzYSZpgxW-2ExLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E023129E51FB403192398EC347346062@RYPC>


> I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough 
> to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by 
> choice.  

Ever hear of rabies ?  Just like people, wild animals aren't always
rational.

-- Randall


From marka at maracing.com  Thu Apr  2 13:29:26 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:29:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <E023129E51FB403192398EC347346062@RYPC>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
 <CAAoSWGP06gK9H7Nm_w6gL9a1AuFD+8fu+pAkzYSZpgxW-2ExLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E023129E51FB403192398EC347346062@RYPC>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGOZn9Di07Bh-AY4BYPevbm8ZXBGUpjFyNpEa0ih0X5vsA@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

I've heard of people slipping and killing themselves in the bathtub too,
but I still don't spend a lot of time worrying about it when I take a
shower.

I think you're hell of a lot more likely to accidentally shoot yourself
carrying a gun working on cars than you are to need said gun to ward off
bears with rabies.

If you want to buy a cool gun, buy a cool gun.  Don't dress it up in a
bunch of BS.

Mark

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:21 PM Randall <TR3driver at ca.rr.com> wrote:

>
> > I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
> > to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by
> > choice.
>
> Ever hear of rabies ?  Just like people, wild animals aren't always
> rational.
>
> -- Randall
>
>
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From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  2 13:45:30 2020
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 12:45:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAAoSWGOZn9Di07Bh-AY4BYPevbm8ZXBGUpjFyNpEa0ih0X5vsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJCmR7JEtkX+jRPvw6oUg-_3BLeTXEbUDgHwTMNorYs5UYL0zw@mail.gmail.com>
 <00b701d608fc$1ec1da90$5c458fb0$@talktalk.net>
 <CAAoSWGP06gK9H7Nm_w6gL9a1AuFD+8fu+pAkzYSZpgxW-2ExLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E023129E51FB403192398EC347346062@RYPC>
 <CAAoSWGOZn9Di07Bh-AY4BYPevbm8ZXBGUpjFyNpEa0ih0X5vsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <425418DA22364B448B0618462B226FEA@RYPC>


> I've heard of people slipping and killing themselves in the 
> bathtub too, but I still don't spend a lot of time worrying 
> about it when I take a shower.

Your choice, for sure.

My great-aunt broke her hip that way; and oddly enough there are handrails
in my shower.  That's my choice.

These days, I even wear eye protection in the shop.  Still don't spend a lot
of time worrying about it, just do it.

-- Randall



From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Apr  2 14:47:51 2020
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 16:47:51 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
Message-ID: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I realize that this is not what this exchange is really about, but it 
got me wondering about rabies in bears.  Apparently it is possible, 
but very rare.  According to humanesociety.org:  People have little 
to fear in terms of catching diseases or parasites from bears. As 
warm-blooded animals, bears can get rabies, but it is very rare. 
There are no known cases of a person catching rabies from a bear.

-Steve T.

At 03:14 PM 4/2/2020, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:

> > I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
> > to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by
> > choice.
>
>Ever hear of rabies ?  Just like people, wild animals aren't always
>rational.
>
>-- Randall
>
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net


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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  2 15:26:39 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:26:39 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <b44c5c80-9838-8319-08dc-ec9e69413ce2@comcast.net>

re: "People have little to fear in terms of catching diseases or 
parasites from bears"

Maybe because scant few people survive encounters with bears long enough 
to show symptoms?


On 4/2/2020 1:47 PM, Steven Trovato via Shop-talk wrote:
> I realize that this is not what this exchange is really about, but it 
> got me wondering about rabies in bears.? Apparently it is possible, 
> but very rare.? According to humanesociety.org:? People have little to 
> fear in terms of catching diseases or parasites from bears. As 
> warm-blooded animals, bears can get rabies, but it is very rare. There 
> are no known cases of a person catching rabies from a bear.
>
> -Steve T.
>
> At 03:14 PM 4/2/2020, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
>
>> > I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
>> > to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by
>> > choice.
>>
>> Ever hear of rabies ?? Just like people, wild animals aren't always
>> rational.
>>
>> -- Randall
>>
>
>


From miq at bigllama.com  Thu Apr  2 15:38:06 2020
From: miq at bigllama.com (Miq Millman)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 14:38:06 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
Message-ID: <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>

That's probably because in order to catch rabies from a bear bite, you 'd
have to survive the bear attack.  Survival rate from a bear attack seems to
vary, but it's not very good.  Bear attacks are pretty rare in and of
themselves (chances are about 1 in 2ish million), plus there have been less
than half a dozen cases of rabies in bears in the last 20 years.

# OF DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES PER YEAR

Cause of death ??????? # dead
Cardiovascular disease ??.. 856,030
Transportation accidents ...?. 48,441
COVID-19...................................4520***
Drowning ?????????.. 3,582
Hypothermia ??????..??699
West Nile virus ?????..?.. 119
Hornet/bee/wasp stings ?......... 48.5
Snake bites ??????.?.?.. 5.2
Bear attacks ????.............?.. 2


***so far

Eric, maybe just stop eating bacon in the shop, that will save you from
heart disease and keep the bears away.

--
__
Miq Millman   miq at bigllama.com
Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions


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On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 1:47 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> I realize that this is not what this exchange is really about, but it
> got me wondering about rabies in bears.  Apparently it is possible,
> but very rare.  According to humanesociety.org:  People have little
> to fear in terms of catching diseases or parasites from bears. As
> warm-blooded animals, bears can get rabies, but it is very rare.
> There are no known cases of a person catching rabies from a bear.
>
> -Steve T.
>
> At 03:14 PM 4/2/2020, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
>
> > > I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
> > > to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by
> > > choice.
> >
> >Ever hear of rabies ?  Just like people, wild animals aren't always
> >rational.
> >
> >-- Randall
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >
> >Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> >Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
> >
> >Unsubscribe/Manage:
> >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net
>
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/miq at bigllama.com
>
>
>
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From strovato at optonline.net  Thu Apr  2 15:36:43 2020
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Thu, 02 Apr 2020 17:36:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <b44c5c80-9838-8319-08dc-ec9e69413ce2@comcast.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <b44c5c80-9838-8319-08dc-ec9e69413ce2@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <90.59.09282.DBB568E5@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Seems like most of the risk situations I read 
about were when people encountered dead bears and 
hunters, which is kind of the same thing.

-Steve T.

At 05:26 PM 4/2/2020, Bob Spidell via Shop-talk wrote:
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64re: "People 
>have little to fear in terms of catching diseases or
>parasites from bears"
>
>Maybe because scant few people survive 
>encounters with bears long enough to show symptoms?????
>?????N?
>?K?]?[????]??XH??@talk wrote:
>>I realize that this is not what this exchange 
>>is really about, but it got me wondering about 
>>rabies in bears.  Apparently it is possible, 
>>but very rare.  According to humanesociety.org:  People have little to
>?X\?[?\?\????]?[??\?X\?\???\?\?]\???om bears. As 
>?\?KX???Y[?[X[??X\???[??]?X?Y at s, but it is very rare. There
>>are no known cases of a person catching rabies from a bear.
>T?]?H????B03:14 PM 4/2/2020, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
>??am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
>?F?&RF?vW&?W2"v??B????6??W2??F????7?6?op by
>>> > choice.
>>??WfW"?V"?b&&?W2?*?W7B???e people, wild animals aren't always
>>?][??[??? ???- Randall
>>?????????????????????????????????????????????________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
>Unsubscribe/Manage: 
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net


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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  2 16:31:28 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 15:31:28 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7d3deb2-70e8-9c13-903b-3b646b5cb7a8@comcast.net>

There was a photo going around years ago showing (what was left) of a 
guy who was killed by a bear, but not before he emptied a .38 revolver 
into the bear.? It was pretty gruesome,? the bear ripped him open and 
ate all his organs (but, surprisingly, left his junk). Rangers killed 
the bear and verified it was the culprit from stomach contents.

So, if bears are a worry something more substantial than a .38 (dunno if 
it was a 'special') is called-for.


On 4/2/2020 2:38 PM, Miq Millman via Shop-talk wrote:
> That's probably because in order to catch rabies from a bear bite, you 
> 'd have to survive the bear attack. Survival rate from a bear attack 
> seems to vary, but it's not very good.? Bear attacks?are pretty rare 
> in and of themselves (chances are about 1 in 2ish million), plus there 
> have been less than half a dozen cases of rabies in bears in the last 
> 20 years.
>
> # OF DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES PER YEAR
>
> Cause of death ??????? # dead
> Cardiovascular disease ??.. 856,030
> Transportation accidents ...?. 48,441
> COVID-19...................................4520***
> Drowning ?????????.. 3,582
> Hypothermia ??????..??699
> West Nile virus ?????..?.. 119
> Hornet/bee/wasp stings ?......... 48.5
> Snake bites ??????.?.?.. 5.2
> Bear attacks ????.............?.. 2
>
>
> ***so far
>
> Eric, maybe just stop eating bacon in the shop, that will save you 
> from heart disease and keep the bears away.
>
> --
> __
> Miq Millman miq at bigllama.com <mailto:miq at bigllama.com>
> Tualatin, OR? Big Llama Productions
>

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From eric at megageek.com  Thu Apr  2 16:55:24 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 18:55:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirdest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFB2BBD95A.349DEEDA-ON8525853E.007DCD3E-8525853E.007DECF3@mail.megageek.com>

Miq writes-

>Eric, maybe just stop eating bacon in the shop, that will save you from 
heart disease and keep the bears away.

NOT A Chance of that.  8>)  In fact, I use bacon as a condiment!  8>)



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:03:47 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 18:03:47 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <e7d3deb2-70e8-9c13-903b-3b646b5cb7a8@comcast.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <e7d3deb2-70e8-9c13-903b-3b646b5cb7a8@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAK73_u4oiPyTbS1H_9MaEW518O=7Td_XXpJXqzH4+EaQv8jQdQ@mail.gmail.com>

Eric,

I don't know what the weather's like there, but I've never been able to
keep anything in my garage from rusting, long-term. Some of it just rusts
faster, some slower. If it was a handgun, and I was depending on it, I
don't think I'd leave it in the garage at all. Add to that the concern that
you might be on the other side of the garage when you needed it and I might
just be inclined to carry it while I was in there, then bring it inside
after.

Of course now, for me, I'm just going to close the garage door. I didn't
even think about it before your email but I've got a pack of what my
neighbors say are wolves behind my house--I can't tell the difference on
sight between a wolf and a coyote (and I don't think it'd matter anyway),
but there are definitely a pack of them and they like to howl at night and
you can see them in the distance sometimes before it gets too dark. I've
always assumed they want nothing to do with the house and I think they're
neat to look at but am not necessarily interested in getting better
acquainted.

I think now I'll be maintaining garage stuff with the door down. Thanks for
that.

Scott

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 5:31 PM Bob Spidell via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> There was a photo going around years ago showing (what was left) of a guy
> who was killed by a bear, but not before he emptied a .38 revolver into the
> bear.  It was pretty gruesome,  the bear ripped him open and ate all his
> organs (but, surprisingly, left his junk).  Rangers killed the bear and
> verified it was the culprit from stomach contents.
>
> So, if bears are a worry something more substantial than a .38 (dunno if
> it was a 'special') is called-for.
>
>
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Thu Apr  2 17:45:51 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 16:45:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u4oiPyTbS1H_9MaEW518O=7Td_XXpJXqzH4+EaQv8jQdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <e7d3deb2-70e8-9c13-903b-3b646b5cb7a8@comcast.net>
 <CAK73_u4oiPyTbS1H_9MaEW518O=7Td_XXpJXqzH4+EaQv8jQdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bb0128ee-0c04-e862-5576-edc54a546957@comcast.net>

re: "... I can't tell the difference on sight between a wolf and a 
coyote (and I don't think it'd matter anyway) ..."

It would.? Wolves are bigger, stronger and smarter than coyotes, and 
they hunt in packs.


On 4/2/2020 4:03 PM, Scott Hall via Shop-talk wrote:
> Eric,
>
> I don't know what the weather's like there, but I've never been able 
> to keep anything in my garage from rusting, long-term. Some of it just 
> rusts faster,?some slower. If it was a handgun, and I was depending on 
> it, I don't think I'd leave it in the garage at all. Add to that the 
> concern that you might?be on the other side of the garage when you 
> needed it and I might just be inclined to carry it while I was in 
> there, then bring it inside after.
>
> Of course now, for me, I'm just going to close the garage door. I 
> didn't even think about it before your email but I've got a pack of 
> what my neighbors say are wolves behind my house--I can't tell the 
> difference on sight between a wolf and a coyote (and I don't think 
> it'd matter anyway), but there are definitely a pack of them and they 
> like to howl at night and you can see them in the distance sometimes 
> before it gets too dark. I've always assumed they want nothing to do 
> with the house and I think they're neat to look at but am not 
> necessarily interested in getting better acquainted.
>
> I think now I'll be maintaining garage stuff with the door down. 
> Thanks for that.
>
> Scott
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 5:31 PM Bob Spidell via Shop-talk 
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
>     There was a photo going around years ago showing (what was left)
>     of a guy who was killed by a bear, but not before he emptied a .38
>     revolver into the bear.? It was pretty gruesome,? the bear ripped
>     him open and ate all his organs (but, surprisingly, left his
>     junk).? Rangers killed the bear and verified it was the culprit
>     from stomach contents.
>
>     So, if bears are a worry something more substantial than a .38
>     (dunno if it was a 'special') is called-for.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bspidell at comcast.net
>

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From szwedj at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 17:51:16 2020
From: szwedj at gmail.com (Joe Szwed)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 19:51:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] 1. Re: Maybe the weirest shop related question asked
 here.
Message-ID: <B7F69F99-4151-49A7-A465-9B8B77E9E37D@gmail.com>


While the chances of a bear attack are low, believe it or not New Jersey does have the densest population of both humans and black bears in the country. 

Joe Szwed
Flemington NJ


From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 21:45:14 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 22:45:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <bb0128ee-0c04-e862-5576-edc54a546957@comcast.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <e7d3deb2-70e8-9c13-903b-3b646b5cb7a8@comcast.net>
 <CAK73_u4oiPyTbS1H_9MaEW518O=7Td_XXpJXqzH4+EaQv8jQdQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <bb0128ee-0c04-e862-5576-edc54a546957@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <b1cb45a1-761f-457e-f0b6-de8240497e51@gmail.com>

No, that's exactly my point--I don't care if it's the dumber, smaller, 
solitary coyote and not a wolf--it still doesn't matter, I don't want to 
go make friends with them.

On 4/2/2020 6:45 PM, Bob Spidell via Shop-talk wrote:
> re: "... I can't tell the difference on sight between a wolf and a 
> coyote (and I don't think it'd matter anyway) ..."
>
> It would.? Wolves are bigger, stronger and smarter than coyotes, and 
> they hunt in packs.
>
>
> On 4/2/2020 4:03 PM, Scott Hall via Shop-talk wrote:
>> Eric,
>>
>> I don't know what the weather's like there, but I've never been able 
>> to keep anything in my garage from rusting, long-term. Some of it 
>> just rusts faster,?some slower. If it was a handgun, and I was 
>> depending on it, I don't think I'd leave it in the garage at all. Add 
>> to that the concern that you might?be on the other side of the garage 
>> when you needed it and I might just be inclined to carry it while I 
>> was in there, then bring it inside after.
>>
>> Of course now, for me, I'm just going to close the garage door. I 
>> didn't even think about it before your email but I've got a pack of 
>> what my neighbors say are wolves behind my house--I can't tell the 
>> difference on sight between a wolf and a coyote (and I don't think 
>> it'd matter anyway), but there are definitely a pack of them and they 
>> like to howl at night and you can see them in the distance sometimes 
>> before it gets too dark. I've always assumed they want nothing to do 
>> with the house and I think they're neat to look at but am not 
>> necessarily interested in getting better acquainted.
>>
>> I think now I'll be maintaining garage stuff with the door down. 
>> Thanks for that.
>>
>> Scott

From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Fri Apr  3 10:38:10 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:38:10 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
Message-ID: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my very old router.

I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.

So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to configure.

I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working from home.

Thanks
stay healthy
tim
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From mark at bradakis.com  Fri Apr  3 10:47:34 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 10:47:34 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <b4f8a11c-29cc-e956-ad70-77ca15dccb71@bradakis.com>

On 4/3/20 10:38 AM, Tim . via Shop-talk wrote:
> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace 
> my very old router.
>
> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my 
> computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.
>
> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to 
> configure.
>
> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want 
> to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both 
> working from home.
>

Does your ISP not provide the router?? What exactly is it they provide?? 
Just a bare cable hanging out of the wall?


mjb.



From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Fri Apr  3 11:01:55 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 13:01:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <8B53D981-A1A5-49F8-B0D5-AAB0998D3F17@groupwbench.org>

What kind of drop do you have (coax, fiber, etc)? Usually the provider will give you one. They don't often degrade, they just stop working. So it depends what immediat eproblem you're trying to solve...

jim

> On Apr 3, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Tim . via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my very old router. 
> 
> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date. 
> 
> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to configure. 
> 
> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working from home. 
> 
> Thanks
> stay healthy
> tim
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org>
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Fri Apr  3 11:03:08 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 12:03:08 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CFACE8EC-03A6-443B-B501-39586B78D80B@icloud.com>

I?ve been very happy with routers from MikroTik. Not well known here but have been around for many years. I?ve used them for about 15 years. They started as a supplier for ISPs. 

I use their RB951ui-2HnD router. High power WiFi (1000 mW) & 5 cat-5 10/100 ports. $70 on Amazon. I had trouble with them sending old stock that didn?t have a warranty but have great luck with ispsupplies.com. 

It comes configured but has lots of flexibility if you need something out of the ordinary. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 3, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Tim . via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?
This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my very old router. 

I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date. 

So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to configure. 

I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working from home. 

Thanks
stay healthy
tim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com

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From dhlocker at comcast.net  Fri Apr  3 14:06:58 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:06:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <53181466-b422-0c09-134e-4a8b36d1c13b@comcast.net>

I went to my ISP's website and chose a modem that they supported (Cisco
DPC3008) and a separate router (Linksys EA3500.) A short Ethernet (RJ45
on each end) cable connects them and the router gives the WiFi and a few
hardwired connections. Works a treat.

The modem needs to be compatible with your ISP and carrier's modulation
scheme; almost any modern router should be compatible, but look for NAT
(Network Address Translation) and Firewall features. Those give you
somewhat more security. Set a VERY strong password on your WiFi (I would
say 20 characters is a minimum and should include all those wonky
characters that are hard to type.) If yours has a guest WiFi, leave that
turned off unless you actually have a guest and change that password
with each new guest that comes/goes.

HTH,
Donald.
--
*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-04-03 12:38 p.m., Tim . via Shop-talk wrote:
> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace
> my very old router.?
> 
> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my
> computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.?
> 
> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to
> configure.?
> 
> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want
> to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both
> working from home.?
> 
> Thanks
> stay healthy
> tim
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dhlocker at comcast.net
> 

From dhlocker at comcast.net  Fri Apr  3 14:10:22 2020
From: dhlocker at comcast.net (Donald H Locker)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 16:10:22 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <53181466-b422-0c09-134e-4a8b36d1c13b@comcast.net>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <53181466-b422-0c09-134e-4a8b36d1c13b@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <fbe23f03-40f7-f427-e0eb-7f62fa23137b@comcast.net>

One other note - you can get a modem and/or router from your ISP, but it
will be a rental and you'll end up paying more for that than for a
purchased device. The positive side is that if it fails, it's there
equipment and they should support (repair/replace) it. You will be
responsible for the equipment if you purchase it. My experience has been
extremely good with purchasing; these boxes are very rugged and reliable.

Stay healthy!
Donald.

*Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
() no proprietary attachments; no html mail
/\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>

On 2020-04-03 4:06 p.m., Donald H Locker wrote:
> I went to my ISP's website and chose a modem that they supported (Cisco
> DPC3008) and a separate router (Linksys EA3500.) A short Ethernet (RJ45
> on each end) cable connects them and the router gives the WiFi and a few
> hardwired connections. Works a treat.
> 
> The modem needs to be compatible with your ISP and carrier's modulation
> scheme; almost any modern router should be compatible, but look for NAT
> (Network Address Translation) and Firewall features. Those give you
> somewhat more security. Set a VERY strong password on your WiFi (I would
> say 20 characters is a minimum and should include all those wonky
> characters that are hard to type.) If yours has a guest WiFi, leave that
> turned off unless you actually have a guest and change that password
> with each new guest that comes/goes.
> 
> HTH,
> Donald.
> --
> *Plain Text* email -- it's an accessibility issue
> () no proprietary attachments; no html mail
> /\ <https://www.georgedillon.com/web/html_email_is_evil.shtml>
> 
> On 2020-04-03 12:38 p.m., Tim . via Shop-talk wrote:
>> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace
>> my very old router.?
>>
>> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my
>> computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.?
>>
>> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to
>> configure.?
>>
>> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want
>> to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both
>> working from home.?
>>
>> Thanks
>> stay healthy
>> tim

From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 15:35:55 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 17:35:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router
Message-ID: <05f801d609ff$dc1fa460$945eed20$@gmail.com>

Hi Tim - what are your requirements? 

 

Wi-Fi? 5MHz in addition to 2.4? or Wired only? 

Battery backup?

How many ports does it need to support?

Guest network required?

VLANs required?

QoS required or desired?

Other?

 

Aside from all those basics, I would recommend a vendor that makes it easy
to change the default credentials, and other security processes. Something
that automatically updates itself would be great, too.

 

As noted by others, many ISPs offer to rent you a combination cable modem
and router. You have the right to purchase your own qualifying cable modem
[if cable is how you get your internet], and avoid paying the monthly fee.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 17:02:37 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 18:02:37 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Router
In-Reply-To: <05f801d609ff$dc1fa460$945eed20$@gmail.com>
References: <05f801d609ff$dc1fa460$945eed20$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6d4MXvyHE60GUDxQHbK3_5ftRWS0tyo4k9ehQWLh0PqzA@mail.gmail.com>

Like Al said, list your requirements, then I'd draw a floorplan, too. Don't
forget any smart TVs or other similar devices. There are some new wireless
router protocols that look really interesting, however, IMO a WiFi
connection is okay, but a poor substitute if a wired connection is at all
available. Once you've figured out what you need, where, I'd check out the
recommended wireless routers on both CNet.com and Tom's Hardware.

We're stuck with HughesNet satt-based for the time being. We also are stuck
using their wireless modem (at an additional $15/month-it's a racket!).
ViaSat isn't any better, IMO. Currently we're on month to month hoping the
Texas Rural Broadband Initiative with get off the ground sooner rather than
later.

The HughesNet modem has 4 gigabit ports on it in addition to providing 2G
and 5G wifi. I've got my main desktop Mac and PC plugged directly into the
modem, along with a NetGear R7000 and an 8 port gig switch. The NetGear has
been rock solid and comes pre setup with an easier to remember WiFi
password, which you can change if you want to.

Hope this helps,
RD

On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 4:36 PM Al Fuller via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Hi Tim ? what are your requirements?
>
>
>
> Wi-Fi? 5MHz in addition to 2.4? or Wired only?
>
> Battery backup?
>
> How many ports does it need to support?
>
> Guest network required?
>
> VLANs required?
>
> QoS required or desired?
>
> Other?
>
>
>
> Aside from all those basics, I would recommend a vendor that makes it easy
> to change the default credentials, and other security processes. Something
> that automatically updates itself would be great, too.
>
>
>
> As noted by others, many ISPs offer to rent you a combination cable modem
> and router. You have the right to purchase your own qualifying cable modem
> [if cable is how you get your internet], and avoid paying the monthly fee.
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/ronnie.day at gmail.com
>
>
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From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Fri Apr  3 18:38:07 2020
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2020 20:38:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP8xxSB4FrN-F_O8JQ19hwM4E=gqvpTgNo5pZw7hKDG3mg@mail.gmail.com>

Tim-

The big question for you is what kind of internet connection you have.
Based on the "old router" statement, I'd theorize you have a cable modem or
DSL bridge, and have a standard ethernet-based router with a Public/WAN
interface, and a group of ethernet ports bridged with your Access Point.

If so, you've received some good advice here. The Mikrotik gear is
commercial-grade, high quality, secure and will last a long while, but
hasn't been, in my experience, very end-user friendly, but only because it
is capable of so much.

If you 're looking to invest in a decent router that you can use for the
next several years, I'd look at mid-tier models from Netgear, TP-Link or
Asus. The important item is that you receive software support for a good
while, because that's what will go a long way towards keeping your home
network protected from malware infections, etc. The routers themselves are
computers, and there are wide swaths of infected home routers, due to
exploited vulnerabilities in both their firmware and the hardware itself.

Personally, I'm using a Ubiquiti UniFi USG, which is a commercial-grade
managed 3-port router. I use two UniFi AP-AC-Pros in the house. Its what I
deploy to my clients, so I better have it available to test updates before
I update my clients. It isn't too expensive, but its more complexity than
you likely are looking for in your domicile.

I'd specifically look at this TP-Link:
https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC1900-Smart-WiFi-Router/dp/B07NF3K74H. It
is a newer model, so it'll be supported for several years. I've had several
friends with the prior generation model (which has similarly good reviews
on Amazon), so I'd expect it'll perform well for years.

Happy to discuss further.

ObShopContent: The network rack is in a corner of the shop!

-Peter


On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 12:38 PM Tim . via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my
> very old router.
>
> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer
> knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.
>
> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to
> configure.
>
> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to
> try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working
> from home.
>
> Thanks
> stay healthy
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/peterwmurray at gmail.com
>
>
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From tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com  Sat Apr  4 07:22:30 2020
From: tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com (Tim .)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 13:22:30 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CH2PR04MB6505477F116DF20548B9A833B4C40@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

Thanks for the replies. Here is more information.

"Does your ISP not provide the router?  What exactly is it they provide? Just a bare cable hanging out of the wall?" Yes.  It's the coax that also feeds the TV. Their router costs too much every month. They already bleed me for the internet access.

 "What are your requirements?" Not sure on the MHz part. What would be recommended?

 We don't need guest access, two to three laptops, a couple smart phones. No smart TV yet. Once we need a new flat screen, it will be a smart TV. Everything wireless since the modem is in the basement.

 CNet.com and Tom's Hardware. I?ll check these two out for the units that you call can recommend. I'll be buying based on what you all suggest.

thanks again

tim



________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Tim . via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 11:38 AM
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router

This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my very old router.

I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.

So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to configure.

I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working from home.

Thanks
stay healthy
tim
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From lspector at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 07:32:54 2020
From: lspector at gmail.com (Larry Spector)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 09:32:54 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB6505477F116DF20548B9A833B4C40@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH2PR04MB6505477F116DF20548B9A833B4C40@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAFNB6W=d6yg74G2os6nO7xkd89TFUKMiwMoUxu3SMM6eEALUJg@mail.gmail.com>

Can you share the make/model of what you have now? I suspect it may be a
combination cable modem/router, which is a little different from a straight
up router.

-Larry

On Sat, Apr 4, 2020 at 9:28 AM Tim . via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
wrote:

> Thanks for the replies. Here is more information.
>
> "Does your ISP not provide the router?  What exactly is it they provide?
> Just a bare cable hanging out of the wall?" Yes.  It's the coax that also
> feeds the TV. Their router costs too much every month. They already bleed
> me for the internet access.
>
>  "What are your requirements?" Not sure on the MHz part. What would be
> recommended?
>
>  We don't need guest access, two to three laptops, a couple smart phones.
> No smart TV yet. Once we need a new flat screen, it will be a smart TV.
> Everything wireless since the modem is in the basement.
>
>  CNet.com and Tom's Hardware. I?ll check these two out for the units that
> you call can recommend. I'll be buying based on what you all suggest.
>
> thanks again
>
> tim
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Tim .
> via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 3, 2020 11:38 AM
> *To:* Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* [Shop-talk] need a new router
>
> This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my
> very old router.
>
> I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer
> knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date.
>
> So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to
> configure.
>
> I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to
> try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working
> from home.
>
> Thanks
> stay healthy
> tim
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lspector at gmail.com
>
>
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Sat Apr  4 08:39:59 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 10:39:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router
In-Reply-To: <CH2PR04MB6505477F116DF20548B9A833B4C40@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65054F5624A3E50FE7DDA725B4C70@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CH2PR04MB6505477F116DF20548B9A833B4C40@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <003f01d60a8e$eb6bc270$c2434750$@gmail.com>

Tim:

 

As regards Wi-Fi, current wireless routers broadcast on two frequencies (2.4
+ 5 MHz). 

 

There are a lot of factors, but the basics are that 5 Mhz give better speed
but lower wall penetration. 2.4 MHz gives lower speed, but better wall
penetration and hence wider coverage through the building, yard, shop, etc.

 

That said, as mentioned before - wired connections always perform better
than wireless, so any devices like desktops, laptops, TVs, etc that can be
hard wired will do better with an ethernet cable than with Wi-Fi.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Tim . via
Shop-talk
Sent: Saturday, April 4, 2020 9:23 AM
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>; Tim .
<tims_datsun_stuff at outlook.com>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] need a new router

 

Thanks for the replies. Here is more information. 

"Does your ISP not provide the router?  What exactly is it they provide?
Just a bare cable hanging out of the wall?" Yes.  It's the coax that also
feeds the TV. Their router costs too much every month. They already bleed me
for the internet access.

 "What are your requirements?" Not sure on the MHz part. What would be
recommended?

 We don't need guest access, two to three laptops, a couple smart phones. No
smart TV yet. Once we need a new flat screen, it will be a smart TV.
Everything wireless since the modem is in the basement.

 CNet.com and Tom's Hardware. I'll check these two out for the units that
you call can recommend. I'll be buying based on what you all suggest.

thanks again

tim

 

 

 

  _____  

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net
<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> > on behalf of Tim . via Shop-talk
<shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> >
Sent: Friday, April 3, 2020 11:38 AM
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> >
Subject: [Shop-talk] need a new router 

 

This working from home has proven to me that I finally need to replace my
very old router. 

 

I don't want to have to go shopping for it but also know that my computer
knowledge is dated and not even close to being up to date. 

 

So, I need recommendations for a good home router that will be easy to
configure. 

 

I am pretty sure that I can get up to 100MB speed from our ISP so want to
try to take advantage of that since both my wife and I are both working from
home. 

 

Thanks

stay healthy

tim

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From t.w.jones1 at gmail.com  Wed Apr  1 16:01:05 2020
From: t.w.jones1 at gmail.com (Tom Jones)
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2020 18:01:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFB9E9E154.DB93AABC-ON8525853A.006156AC-8525853A.0062BD38@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAE16_w0rnBEwPP8qkcWVt4vznNW_XS4mowKM6OkWTmGh2On5tQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1031304452.38386.1585582490874@connect.xfinity.com>
 <CAOErii==7i9xHA6WQgao=-G05aJqmPcOPs=O2=dhDgLmyp6+4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCmR7LR4Wp_4Uqw_JeKzRMqYycvTXW5WZiZsqS0qzMOp+JbEg@mail.gmail.com>

There are a few things to consider.

If a bear is your adversary, then a large caliber handgun is needed to get
the penetration to stop their advancement. .357 magnum, 10 mm or 44 magnum,
or a .30 caliber rifle or 12ga shotgun with slugs.  Anything less just may
focus your adversary?s attention on you and really make them mad.

Where are you most likely to be located when a visitor would appear and
where would your firearm be?  Are you back to the door working at a bench
or machine tool, under a car lift or on the floor on a creeper? Will you be
able to reach your firearm and access it before your visitor reaches you?
You don?t want them to corner you where you have no means of escape. Access
will determine the type of secure storage you?ll need. Carrying is fine if
you use a good quality holster with retention and trigger protection. Not
sure how you would present the gun on a creeper under a car though.

What direction would you most likely be firing? Towards your house or your
neighbors house? No matter what you chose to use, what?s behind your
potential target is your 2nd, hitting your target is the first and biggest
headache.

Revolvers are fine and most can be had in stainless as well as shotguns
made for boating use. A lot of semi autos have stainless slides and
barrels. Yes, maintenance, cleaning and oiling will be necessary. Even
stainless firearms have carbon steel parts that need protected.

A can of bear spray may provide enough of a diversion for your visitor so
you can get out of harms way.

Hopefully you keep a cell phone or landline phone close, heaven forbid, you
have a run in and need help.

It may be safer to close the door and find another means of fresh air and
ventilation.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 3:54 PM Paul Parkanzky via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> I don't think a revolver is a poor choice but there's no way I'd store
> an expensive revolver like that in the garage.
>
> I agree with other commenters that say that if he doesn't have any
> intention of carrying the firearm that there's no reason to compromise
> with a handgun. I'd choose either a cheap AR-pattern rifle or an
> inexpensive shotgun in one of Hornady's rapidsafe wall mounts or a
> similar secured wall mount.
>
> -Paul
>
> On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:50 AM Thomas FitzGibbon via Shop-talk
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Eric,
> >
> > I second the stainless steel revolver recommendation, maybe a Colt
> Python in .357 magnum.  I'd be concerned that a semi-auto would be more
> sensitive to that kind of environment, but either way it should not be too
> challenging.  Desiccant packs are going to be critical, especially to
> protect the ammo as the gun itself should be OK with a light coat of oil.
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > On March 29, 2020 at 8:38 PM Philip Ethier via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > I'd recommend a stainless double-action revolver, attached to your
> person in a holster designed to make it impossible for the cylinder to
> revolve until the weapon is removed from the holster.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 29, 2020 at 12:58 PM eric--- via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I know I've asked some weird questions before, but I think this one
> will take the cake.
> >
> > I live out in the country, and often work well into the night with a
> large shop door open.  With having bears, coyotes and other large animals
> in the area, I got to thinking, it might be a good idea to keep a pistol in
> the garage to scare off any would be 'late night snackers."
> > Actually, I had a run-in the other night that made me think about this.
> >
> > So my question is, if I have a pistol, in a rapid access safe in a shop
> environment, what factors should I consider?  I understand that humidity
> will play a huge role, as will dust (I have to see how 'sealed' the safe
> is.)
> >
> > Is there anything I'm missing that I should consider?  I understand that
> I will most likely have to clean the weapon often, but is there anything I
> need to think about?
> >
> > Also, I'm open to suggestions for a weapon type.  I thinking an XD-M
> elite polymer hand gun.  With mostly composite parts.  Similar to a Glock.
> (Note, I don't have anything against Glock, I just never owned one.  I do
> have and love my XD however, so Glock isn't out of consideration.)
> >
> > I don't want this to turn into a 2nd amendment thread.  Just a 'what to
> consider' for leaving a pistol in a shop.
> >
> > Note, in my shop I do just about everything, metal work, wood work, car
> and heavy equipment work, etc.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/t.w.jones1 at gmail.com
>
>
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From jhassall at gmail.com  Thu Apr  2 16:23:35 2020
From: jhassall at gmail.com (J.C. Hassall)
Date: Thu, 2 Apr 2020 18:23:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting statistics.  What are the death stats of being shot by some
woman's irate husband?

</humor attempt>

jim

On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 5:45 PM Miq Millman via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> That's probably because in order to catch rabies from a bear bite, you 'd
> have to survive the bear attack.  Survival rate from a bear attack seems to
> vary, but it's not very good.  Bear attacks are pretty rare in and of
> themselves (chances are about 1 in 2ish million), plus there have been less
> than half a dozen cases of rabies in bears in the last 20 years.
>
> # OF DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES PER YEAR
>
> Cause of death ??????? # dead
> Cardiovascular disease ??.. 856,030
> Transportation accidents ...?. 48,441
> COVID-19...................................4520***
> Drowning ?????????.. 3,582
> Hypothermia ??????..??699
> West Nile virus ?????..?.. 119
> Hornet/bee/wasp stings ?......... 48.5
> Snake bites ??????.?.?.. 5.2
> Bear attacks ????.............?.. 2
>
>
> ***so far
>
> Eric, maybe just stop eating bacon in the shop, that will save you from
> heart disease and keep the bears away.
>
> --
> __
> Miq Millman   miq at bigllama.com
> Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions
>
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#m_98942276440706882_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 1:47 PM Steven Trovato via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> I realize that this is not what this exchange is really about, but it
>> got me wondering about rabies in bears.  Apparently it is possible,
>> but very rare.  According to humanesociety.org:  People have little
>> to fear in terms of catching diseases or parasites from bears. As
>> warm-blooded animals, bears can get rabies, but it is very rare.
>> There are no known cases of a person catching rabies from a bear.
>>
>> -Steve T.
>>
>> At 03:14 PM 4/2/2020, Randall via Shop-talk wrote:
>>
>> > > I am struggling to picture the situation where a "big enough
>> > > to be dangerous" wild animal comes into a noisy shop by
>> > > choice.
>> >
>> >Ever hear of rabies ?  Just like people, wild animals aren't always
>> >rational.
>> >
>> >-- Randall
>> >
>> >_______________________________________________
>> >
>> >Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> >Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>> >
>> >Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/strovato at optonline.net
>>
>>
>> --
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/miq at bigllama.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jhassall at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
W4BEA

The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are
willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

I sometimes feel bad for the smart people - being simple-minded and easily
entertained is totally the way to go! ;-)
J. Stoll
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From bspidell at comcast.net  Sat Apr  4 10:28:55 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 09:28:55 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e2f2ad78-9e15-520a-aba8-a5d4c09f3231@comcast.net>

You forgot to add: 'Asking for a friend.'



On 4/2/2020 3:23 PM, J.C. Hassall via Shop-talk wrote:
> Interesting statistics.? What are the death stats of being shot by 
> some woman's irate husband?
>
> </humor attempt>
>
> jim
>
> On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 5:45 PM Miq Millman via Shop-talk 
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
>     That's probably because in order to catch rabies from a bear bite,
>     you 'd have to survive the bear attack.? Survival rate from a bear
>     attack seems to vary, but it's not very good.? Bear attacks?are
>     pretty rare in and of themselves (chances are about 1 in 2ish
>     million), plus there have been less than half a dozen cases of
>     rabies in bears in the last 20 years.
>
>     # OF DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES PER YEAR
>
>     Cause of death ??????? # dead
>     Cardiovascular disease ??.. 856,030
>     Transportation accidents ...?. 48,441
>     COVID-19...................................4520***
>     Drowning ?????????.. 3,582
>     Hypothermia ??????..??699
>     West Nile virus ?????..?.. 119
>     Hornet/bee/wasp stings ?......... 48.5
>     Snake bites ??????.?.?.. 5.2
>     Bear attacks ????.............?.. 2
>
>
>     ***so far
>
>     Eric, maybe just stop eating bacon in the shop, that will save you
>     from heart disease and keep the bears away.
>
>     --
>     __
>     Miq Millman miq at bigllama.com <mailto:miq at bigllama.com>
>     Tualatin, OR? Big Llama Productions
>
>

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From nogera at icloud.com  Sat Apr  4 19:57:15 2020
From: nogera at icloud.com (Robert Nogueirao)
Date: Sat, 4 Apr 2020 20:57:15 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar battery maintainer
Message-ID: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>

I?ve have an Isetta which is kept in its own small garage separate from my shop. There is no power to the small garage but I need to come up with a way to keep the battery of the Isetta charged.
 Any recommendations on a solar car battery maintainer?    It will need to be weather proof since it will be mounted on the roof of the little garage.
Thanks in advance for recommendations 
Bob 

From bobkegel at comcast.net  Sun Apr  5 15:10:10 2020
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 14:10:10 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <e2f2ad78-9e15-520a-aba8-a5d4c09f3231@comcast.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2f2ad78-9e15-520a-aba8-a5d4c09f3231@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.72.1586121012.2961.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

Buy a goat. 

Tether it outside the shop  where it can keep the weeds down. Any carnivores wandering by will find it more attractive than you and your shop. 

Bob K


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From jem at milleredp.com  Sun Apr  5 16:42:30 2020
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 15:42:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <20200405211033.EE889A1DB8@autox.team.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2f2ad78-9e15-520a-aba8-a5d4c09f3231@comcast.net>
 <20200405211033.EE889A1DB8@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <a8af90d5-40c8-9dc1-e72e-ce5dd1479e35@milleredp.com>

> Tether it outside the shop ?where it can keep the weeds down. Any 
> carnivores wandering by will find it more attractive than you and your 
> shop.

Effective, but cruel.

John.

From mark at bradakis.com  Sun Apr  5 21:19:26 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 21:19:26 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Maybe the weirest shop related question asked here.
In-Reply-To: <20200405211015.8FD26A1CFB@autox.team.net>
References: <52.E5.07714.E70568E5@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>
 <CALUbS3FV6T1B3ERTkEmxNTqrQWh-=oVtcV9c5JCRi+A-rz998g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO=iLWZtn_u-Km6f+PSFeeBqpTTeQk_fBVhHvni=fPimm=1HDg@mail.gmail.com>
 <e2f2ad78-9e15-520a-aba8-a5d4c09f3231@comcast.net>
 <20200405211015.8FD26A1CFB@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <025727b2-a078-ef06-9295-d90370636dce@bradakis.com>

On 4/5/20 3:10 PM, Bob Kegel via Shop-talk wrote:
>
> Buy a goat.
>
> Tether it outside the shop ?where it can keep the weeds down. Any 
> carnivores wandering by will find it more attractive than you and your 
> shop.
>

Jurassic Park

mjb.



From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Sun Apr  5 21:56:02 2020
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:56:02 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1586109602.1071.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.9.1586109602.1071.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>

First off, let me say how jealous I am.  I looked at getting one (actually a pair) of those years ago, didn't, and have regretted it.
There are solar battery maintainers out there, like: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B082X5M3BB/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_fCQIEb832F8K1.
But also consider: if this isn't driven often (just a guess, correct me if this is your commute car) it may be easier to just take the battery out and keep it in the main shop near a source of power.

<<<I've have an Isetta which is kept in its own small garage separate from my shop. There is no power to the small garage but I need to come up with a way to keep the battery of the Isetta charged.
  Any recommendations on a solar car battery maintainer?    It will need to be weather proof since it will be mounted on the roof of the little garage.
Thanks in advance for recommendations
Bob >>>

Regards,

Mark Miller   707-490-5834
markmiller at threeboysfarm.com



From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Sun Apr  5 22:53:12 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Sun, 5 Apr 2020 23:53:12 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>
References: <mailman.9.1586109602.1071.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>
Message-ID: <CAK73_u7H-GLOXXS-euyQmYF-349mdsMm7fHizmndxsbAvjcG=Q@mail.gmail.com>

I second removing the battery and charging it on a good charger in the shop.

I have two solar panel battery chargers like you're describing. They're
designed to either sit on the dashboard and plug into the cigarette lighter
or on top of the car and wire directly to the battery.

Perhaps they have bought me a few extra days from time to time, but each of
them has repeatedly left me with flat batteries. They will not keep a
battery charged over a season, or even a particularly long stint in the
driveway or at an airport.

Scott

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:57 PM Mark Miller via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> First off, let me say how jealous I am.  I looked at getting one (actually
> a pair) of those years ago, didn't, and have regretted it.
> There are solar battery maintainers out there, like:
> https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B082X5M3BB/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_fCQIEb832F8K1
> .
> But also consider: if this isn't driven often (just a guess, correct me if
> this is your commute car) it may be easier to just take the battery out and
> keep it in the main shop near a source of power.
>
> <<<I've have an Isetta which is kept in its own small garage separate from
> my shop. There is no power to the small garage but I need to come up with a
> way to keep the battery of the Isetta charged.
>   Any recommendations on a solar car battery maintainer?    It will need
> to be weather proof since it will be mounted on the roof of the little
> garage.
> Thanks in advance for recommendations
> Bob >>>
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark Miller   707-490-5834
> markmiller at threeboysfarm.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>
>
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From rwil at sbcglobal.net  Sun Apr  5 23:26:49 2020
From: rwil at sbcglobal.net (rwil at sbcglobal.net)
Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2020 22:26:49 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>
References: <mailman.9.1586109602.1071.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>
Message-ID: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>

Mark's example would probably do you fine.  There are some surprises
and exceptions that are worth considering.  5 watts would keep a
battery fully charged in most climates unless the Isetta has some
electrical load drawing down the battery.  If so and if you can't find
the source you can always disconnect the battery until you want to
drive the car.  a 5 watt panel, even if it is unregulated, probably
won't mess up your battery.  All that is needed is a diode to keep the
panel from discharging the battery when it's dark.  5 watts would take
forever to recharge a severely discharged battery.  A good setting for
the panel is the degrees above horizontal that matches your latitude
(32 or 33 degrees here in S. California).

30 watts could overcharge if the protective circuits don't work.  Most
12 volt PV panels actually deliver their full power at something like
13 volts.  If the battery allows it, the voltage will rise higher and
the PV panel's output will drop.  This is OK unless and until the
voltage gets to a level that is unhealthy for the battery, maybe 16
volts for most lead acid batteries.  Really good regulators can cope
with all of that but they tend to be expensive.  

A check of purchasers' ratings can sometimes give you an idea if a
particular panel tends to overcharge unless it is disconnected at the
right time.

If you took the battery into the garage you could use a battery
maintainer that would not only keep the battery charged but do some
neat stuff to keep the battery from sulphating or otherwise wearing
out too fast.  I don't know of a PV panel that will do all of that.

-Roland

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 20:56:02 -0700, Mark wrote:

>First off, let me say how jealous I am.  I looked at getting one (actually a pair) of those years ago, didn't, and have regretted it.
>There are solar battery maintainers out there, like: https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B082X5M3BB/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_fCQIEb832F8K1.
>But also consider: if this isn't driven often (just a guess, correct me if this is your commute car) it may be easier to just take the battery out and keep it in the main shop near a source of power.
>
><<<I've have an Isetta which is kept in its own small garage separate from my shop. There is no power to the small garage but I need to come up with a way to keep the battery of the Isetta charged.
>  Any recommendations on a solar car battery maintainer?    It will need to be weather proof since it will be mounted on the roof of the little garage.
>Thanks in advance for recommendations
>Bob >>>
>
>Regards,
>
>Mark Miller   707-490-5834
>markmiller at threeboysfarm.com

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From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Mon Apr  6 01:00:32 2020
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 00:00:32 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <CAK73_u7H-GLOXXS-euyQmYF-349mdsMm7fHizmndxsbAvjcG=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.9.1586109602.1071.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
 <fb12f195-a8ee-de67-9af2-c2c093d200b2@threeboysfarm.com>
 <CAK73_u7H-GLOXXS-euyQmYF-349mdsMm7fHizmndxsbAvjcG=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E031C44167EA4FC88422A44960B7BC6A@RYPC>

A 5 watt panel should have no trouble keeping a normal car battery up as
long as it gets full sun at least a few days per week.

If not, I suspect you've got either a leak, or a vampire load.  Lots of
stereos, alarms and even the computers on some modern cars draw a little bit
of power all the time.  Clocks are another suspect.

Leaks can be pretty subtle, too. Toughest one I've hunted down was a relay
that had a tiny bit of salt spray on the phenolic plate that carried the
terminals.  Evening dew would sometimes get the salt damp enough to conduct
and turn the relay on.  Found that one just by dumb luck, happened to walk
by the car one night and saw the indicator light on the dash.

Also had trouble with an old motorhome; turned out to be mud that had gotten
thrown up onto the solenoid that charged the camping batteries.

-- Randall 
56 TR3 TS13571L once and future daily driver
71 Stag LE1473 - awaiting engine rebuild
71-2-3 Stag - awaiting gearbox rebuild 

> Perhaps they have bought me a few extra days from time to 
> time, but each of them has repeatedly left me with flat 
> batteries. They will not keep a battery charged over a 
> season, or even a particularly long stint in the driveway or 
> at an airport.


From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Apr  6 12:23:18 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:23:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Decking material?
Message-ID: <09706892-7267-4FB4-A934-32A2FF4E6124@groupwbench.org>

I'm looking to expand/replace the 8 x 14 deck I have now into a 16x24. It's 5/4 PT wood. What else do people like? This is a medium-budget project i.e. I want something better than 1980s era PT pine or sagging plastic lumber but Ipe and the like are probably out of range. I put a Trex railing in my house and I liked the quality but 20 years ago Trex would burn your feet off and sagged. 

What's available today that has a good quality per dollar ratio?

thanks,
jim

From rrochlin at comcast.net  Mon Apr  6 13:30:39 2020
From: rrochlin at comcast.net (Rochlin Robert)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 15:30:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Decking material?
In-Reply-To: <09706892-7267-4FB4-A934-32A2FF4E6124@groupwbench.org>
References: <09706892-7267-4FB4-A934-32A2FF4E6124@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <8EF7EBC9-0A96-417D-AC5A-0F57081449CD@comcast.net>

Hi Jim,
I?m also trying to decide on a re-decking material. Consumer Reports is in the process of evaluating decking material, but since the tests are over a long span of time they have limited data.  I?m also concerned about the potential temperature of the decking material as I have a dog..  Consumer Reports judged the Azak decking as cooler, relatively speaking, than the other decking they have been testing.  Most decking  companies  will tell you that their lighter wood colors are cooler than darker wood colors.
	I?d also be interested in the experience of others.
	Best,
	Bob

> On Apr 6, 2020, at 2:23 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> I'm looking to expand/replace the 8 x 14 deck I have now into a 16x24. It's 5/4 PT wood. What else do people like? This is a medium-budget project i.e. I want something better than 1980s era PT pine or sagging plastic lumber but Ipe and the like are probably out of range. I put a Trex railing in my house and I liked the quality but 20 years ago Trex would burn your feet off and sagged. 
> 
> What's available today that has a good quality per dollar ratio?
> 
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/rrochlin at comcast.net
> 


From patintexas at icloud.com  Mon Apr  6 13:34:36 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:34:36 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Decking material?
In-Reply-To: <09706892-7267-4FB4-A934-32A2FF4E6124@groupwbench.org>
References: <09706892-7267-4FB4-A934-32A2FF4E6124@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <8689BD05-9A04-466F-994F-18C70AFFB93D@icloud.com>

I did a deck about 15 years ago with Massaranduba. It?s close to the Ipe range but it held up great. I?m getting ready to add another 10x20 & will use the same. 

I?ve also used a plastic compound decking (Choicedeck) that works well but it will be hot if not under cover & needs extra support. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 6, 2020, at 1:23 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?I'm looking to expand/replace the 8 x 14 deck I have now into a 16x24. It's 5/4 PT wood. What else do people like? This is a medium-budget project i.e. I want something better than 1980s era PT pine or sagging plastic lumber but Ipe and the like are probably out of range. I put a Trex railing in my house and I liked the quality but 20 years ago Trex would burn your feet off and sagged. 

What's available today that has a good quality per dollar ratio?

thanks,
jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From nogera at icloud.com  Mon Apr  6 13:37:44 2020
From: nogera at icloud.com (Robert Nogueirao)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 14:37:44 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>
References: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>

Thanks guys, for the good advise and insight.  Removing the battery is out as it is factory mounted under the seat, which requires removing the seat to access, and removing the seat requires removing the the interior panels ( what that about German engineering? ).
My basic problem is the the battery is a small Lawn mower size battery needed  to fit in the hole for the battery, while the starter is a Dynastart which means no gear reduction between the started motor and engine, so it take a big draw to get it to turn the engine. if the battery is fully charged no problem, but if it is down just a bit you get one shot at starting then just solenoid clicks.  This is compounded by the fact that after starting the starter motor switch to being a generator alas a poor one at maybe 10 amps. So the solar charger-maintainer looks to be  my only practical option.
Again that?s for the insights and advise.
Bob   ( not quite as odd as his cars)

> On Apr 6, 2020, at 12:27 AM, rwil--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> expensive.  
> 
> A check of purchasers' ratings can sometimes give you an idea if a
> particular panel tends to overcharge unless it is disconnected at the
> right time.

From neiljsherry at talktalk.net  Mon Apr  6 15:17:43 2020
From: neiljsherry at talktalk.net (neiljsherry at talktalk.net)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 22:17:43 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
References: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>
 <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <F2E95708-81B5-4F42-9588-12D6379DD165@talktalk.net>

Could you have an external battery for jump starting and use the quick connector as used on race cars, suitably concealed?

On 6 April 2020 20:37:44 BST, Robert Nogueirao via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>Thanks guys, for the good advise and insight.  Removing the battery is
>out as it is factory mounted under the seat, which requires removing
>the seat to access, and removing the seat requires removing the the
>interior panels ( what that about German engineering? ).
>My basic problem is the the battery is a small Lawn mower size battery
>needed  to fit in the hole for the battery, while the starter is a
>Dynastart which means no gear reduction between the started motor and
>engine, so it take a big draw to get it to turn the engine. if the
>battery is fully charged no problem, but if it is down just a bit you
>get one shot at starting then just solenoid clicks.  This is compounded
>by the fact that after starting the starter motor switch to being a
>generator alas a poor one at maybe 10 amps. So the solar
>charger-maintainer looks to be  my only practical option.
>Again that?s for the insights and advise.
>Bob   ( not quite as odd as his cars)
>
>> On Apr 6, 2020, at 12:27 AM, rwil--- via Shop-talk
><shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
>> expensive.  
>> 
>> A check of purchasers' ratings can sometimes give you an idea if a
>> particular panel tends to overcharge unless it is disconnected at the
>> right time.
>_______________________________________________
>
>Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>http://autox.team.net/archive
>
>Unsubscribe/Manage:
>http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/neiljsherry at talktalk.net

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From dmscheidt at gmail.com  Mon Apr  6 15:29:14 2020
From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt)
Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2020 16:29:14 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
References: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>
 <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <41C32FF2-CD88-46D2-84A8-78337385249A@gmail.com>



> On Apr 6, 2020, at 14:37, Robert Nogueirao via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Thanks guys, for the good advise and insight.  Removing the battery is out as it is factory mounted under the seat, which requires removing the seat to access, and removing the seat requires removing the the interior panels ( what that about German engineering? ).
> My basic problem is the the battery is a small Lawn mower size battery needed  to fit in the hole for the battery, while the starter is a Dynastart which means no gear reduction between the started motor and engine, so it take a big draw to get it to turn the engine. if the battery is fully charged no problem, but if it is down just a bit you get one shot at starting then just solenoid clicks.  This is compounded by the fact that after starting the starter motor switch to being a generator alas a poor one at maybe 10 amps. So the solar charger-maintainer looks to be  my only practical option.
> Again that?s for the insights and advise.
> Bob   ( not quite as odd as his cars)

Can you get power to the building? A 120v 20a feeder can buried 12? deep if it has gfci protection. That would let you use a regular maintainer. 

From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Apr  6 18:00:10 2020
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 2020 20:00:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
References: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <52.BA.14838.CB2CB8E5@mta4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

Battery tender is one of the well known name brands in battery 
maintainers.  They make a solar version.  I have no personal 
experience with it, but they have a good reputation.
<https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q820TQ>https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004Q820TQ

-Steve T.

At 09:57 PM 4/4/2020, Robert Nogueirao via Shop-talk wrote:
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64I've have an Isetta which is kept 
>in its own small garage separate from my shop. There is no power to 
>the small garage but I need to come up with a way to keep the 
>battery of the Isetta charged.
>  Any recommendations on a solar car battery maintainer


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From mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org  Tue Apr  7 08:34:04 2020
From: mayfield+shoptalk at sackheads.org (Jimmie Mayfield)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:34:04 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
References: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>

The recent discussion about solar-powered float chargers has reminded me 
of an issue that I've yet to understand or resolve...

I have a Battery Minder 12248 (12V 2/4/8A) charger/de-sulfator with 
temperature compensation sensor.? While I've never been able to 
appreciably restore a dead UPS battery using the de-sulfation mode, it 
seems to work fine as a slow charger.? It has several modes -- gel-cell, 
AGM or flooded -- which, near as I can tell, adjusts the threshold 
voltage at which the charger switches from bulk-charge mode to 
float-charge/de-sulfation mode.

Every 12V battery that I've ever connected to the charger, even the old 
AGM batteries taken out of my UPS units, eventually reached the 
threshold voltage and switched over to float mode (usually within 30-45 
minutes for a nearly-fully-charged battery).? Except one.

About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco (size 
27F, 890CA, 710CCA) in my truck.? It's a flooded battery and if I 
understand Interstate's spec correctly, its capacity works out to around 
100Ah.? The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6V so it doesn't appear 
to have any shorted cells and has no trouble starting my truck.? So it 
seems to be a normally healthy battery, right?

Thing is...I've never seen my charger go into float mode when connected 
to this battery even when it was nearly new.? With the recent pandemic 
stay-at-home orders, yesterday I decided to connect my truck to the 
charger to stave off parasitic drain (measured to be 20-30mA) that may 
have accumulated over the past week of inactivity.? I'm currently at 16 
hours (@4A) and it still seems to be in bulk-charging mode.? I have 
difficulty believing that the battery needed 50+ Ah.

So what's going on here?? This is the only battery that I've come across 
that behaves like this.



From bspidell at comcast.net  Tue Apr  7 08:49:53 2020
From: bspidell at comcast.net (Bob Spidell)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 07:49:53 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
References: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
 <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <92ca9c19-d74c-9562-28ca-4b2bc4e2ddd6@comcast.net>

FWIW, I put two Interstate batteries in my '08 Mustang--almost daily 
driven over 70 miles on the freeway--and they both failed at 2 years (no 
warning, just wouldn't start my car at work).? Interstate used to be a 
'go to' brand, but I believe they're now made in Mexico like most 
'American' brands.? An experienced starter/generator rebuilder told me 
Mexican-made batteries are crap (and he's Hispanic).? Deka is now my go 
to brand; they're made in Pennsylvania, and competitively priced.

My guess is your Interstate is getting ready to fail.

Bob


On 4/7/2020 7:34 AM, Jimmie Mayfield via Shop-talk wrote:
> The recent discussion about solar-powered float chargers has reminded 
> me of an issue that I've yet to understand or resolve...
>
> I have a Battery Minder 12248 (12V 2/4/8A) charger/de-sulfator with 
> temperature compensation sensor.? While I've never been able to 
> appreciably restore a dead UPS battery using the de-sulfation mode, it 
> seems to work fine as a slow charger.? It has several modes -- 
> gel-cell, AGM or flooded -- which, near as I can tell, adjusts the 
> threshold voltage at which the charger switches from bulk-charge mode 
> to float-charge/de-sulfation mode.
>
> Every 12V battery that I've ever connected to the charger, even the 
> old AGM batteries taken out of my UPS units, eventually reached the 
> threshold voltage and switched over to float mode (usually within 
> 30-45 minutes for a nearly-fully-charged battery).? Except one.
>
> About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco (size 
> 27F, 890CA, 710CCA) in my truck.? It's a flooded battery and if I 
> understand Interstate's spec correctly, its capacity works out to 
> around 100Ah.? The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6V so it 
> doesn't appear to have any shorted cells and has no trouble starting 
> my truck.? So it seems to be a normally healthy battery, right?
>
> Thing is...I've never seen my charger go into float mode when 
> connected to this battery even when it was nearly new.? With the 
> recent pandemic stay-at-home orders, yesterday I decided to connect my 
> truck to the charger to stave off parasitic drain (measured to be 
> 20-30mA) that may have accumulated over the past week of inactivity.? 
> I'm currently at 16 hours (@4A) and it still seems to be in 
> bulk-charging mode.? I have difficulty believing that the battery 
> needed 50+ Ah.
>
> So what's going on here?? This is the only battery that I've come 
> across that behaves like this.
>
>
>
>


From patintexas at icloud.com  Tue Apr  7 09:23:22 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 10:23:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
References: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <60645300-16FA-48CF-8EA0-69DAF5B35C8F@icloud.com>

Sounds like a question for interstate. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 7, 2020, at 9:34 AM, Jimmie Mayfield via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?The recent discussion about solar-powered float chargers has reminded me of an issue that I've yet to understand or resolve...

I have a Battery Minder 12248 (12V 2/4/8A) charger/de-sulfator with temperature compensation sensor.  While I've never been able to appreciably restore a dead UPS battery using the de-sulfation mode, it seems to work fine as a slow charger.  It has several modes -- gel-cell, AGM or flooded -- which, near as I can tell, adjusts the threshold voltage at which the charger switches from bulk-charge mode to float-charge/de-sulfation mode.

Every 12V battery that I've ever connected to the charger, even the old AGM batteries taken out of my UPS units, eventually reached the threshold voltage and switched over to float mode (usually within 30-45 minutes for a nearly-fully-charged battery).  Except one.

About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco (size 27F, 890CA, 710CCA) in my truck.  It's a flooded battery and if I understand Interstate's spec correctly, its capacity works out to around 100Ah.  The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6V so it doesn't appear to have any shorted cells and has no trouble starting my truck.  So it seems to be a normally healthy battery, right?

Thing is...I've never seen my charger go into float mode when connected to this battery even when it was nearly new.  With the recent pandemic stay-at-home orders, yesterday I decided to connect my truck to the charger to stave off parasitic drain (measured to be 20-30mA) that may have accumulated over the past week of inactivity.  I'm currently at 16 hours (@4A) and it still seems to be in bulk-charging mode.  I have difficulty believing that the battery needed 50+ Ah.

So what's going on here?  This is the only battery that I've come across that behaves like this.


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Tue Apr  7 09:50:47 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2020 11:50:47 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
References: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
 <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CMgdnuM6-KvdxX_4=BjmKTUP1fJLL6FOJq7A_-AqWMtyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like it may have partial bridging of the plates, causing a drain
internally.  In the olden days, there were simple ways to check...I don't
know what you do now - take it to the FLAPS and let them put it on
the machine?

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:34 AM Jimmie Mayfield via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> The recent discussion about solar-powered float chargers has reminded me
> of an issue that I've yet to understand or resolve...
>
> I have a Battery Minder 12248 (12V 2/4/8A) charger/de-sulfator with
> temperature compensation sensor.  While I've never been able to
> appreciably restore a dead UPS battery using the de-sulfation mode, it
> seems to work fine as a slow charger.  It has several modes -- gel-cell,
> AGM or flooded -- which, near as I can tell, adjusts the threshold
> voltage at which the charger switches from bulk-charge mode to
> float-charge/de-sulfation mode.
>
> Every 12V battery that I've ever connected to the charger, even the old
> AGM batteries taken out of my UPS units, eventually reached the
> threshold voltage and switched over to float mode (usually within 30-45
> minutes for a nearly-fully-charged battery).  Except one.
>
> About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco (size
> 27F, 890CA, 710CCA) in my truck.  It's a flooded battery and if I
> understand Interstate's spec correctly, its capacity works out to around
> 100Ah.  The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6V so it doesn't appear
> to have any shorted cells and has no trouble starting my truck.  So it
> seems to be a normally healthy battery, right?
>
> Thing is...I've never seen my charger go into float mode when connected
> to this battery even when it was nearly new.  With the recent pandemic
> stay-at-home orders, yesterday I decided to connect my truck to the
> charger to stave off parasitic drain (measured to be 20-30mA) that may
> have accumulated over the past week of inactivity.  I'm currently at 16
> hours (@4A) and it still seems to be in bulk-charging mode.  I have
> difficulty believing that the battery needed 50+ Ah.
>
> So what's going on here?  This is the only battery that I've come across
> that behaves like this.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From JIBrooks at live.com  Tue Apr  7 18:37:57 2020
From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 00:37:57 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer
In-Reply-To: <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
References: <2ldl8f18dt339ap9spsb688pugc9egmlu2@4ax.com>
 <89E595D8-8A5D-4F63-BAA4-BBF8CA81CB99@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MWHPR06MB3151C74297422F679276CDA8A8C00@MWHPR06MB3151.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>

Bob,

How about a battery disconnect switch?  The battery will hold a charge for most of the winter without a load.  Before you start it up, get a charger out there and top it off.  My Triumphs are in the garage all winter where I have power, but this is what I do.  They are always above 12v after 3-4 months of sitting with a cable disconnected. 

Jack

-----Original Message-----
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Robert Nogueirao via Shop-talk
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:38 PM
To: rwil at sbcglobal.net
Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] solar battery maintainer

Thanks guys, for the good advise and insight.  Removing the battery is out as it is factory mounted under the seat, which requires removing the seat to access, and removing the seat requires removing the the interior panels ( what that about German engineering? ).
My basic problem is the the battery is a small Lawn mower size battery needed  to fit in the hole for the battery, while the starter is a Dynastart which means no gear reduction between the started motor and engine, so it take a big draw to get it to turn the engine. if the battery is fully charged no problem, but if it is down just a bit you get one shot at starting then just solenoid clicks.  This is compounded by the fact that after starting the starter motor switch to being a generator alas a poor one at maybe 10 amps. So the solar charger-maintainer looks to be  my only practical option.
Again that?s for the insights and advise.
Bob   ( not quite as odd as his cars)

> On Apr 6, 2020, at 12:27 AM, rwil--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> expensive.  
> 
> A check of purchasers' ratings can sometimes give you an idea if a 
> particular panel tends to overcharge unless it is disconnected at the 
> right time.
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From bk13 at earthlink.net  Wed Apr  8 23:07:26 2020
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 22:07:26 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
Message-ID: <1702970555.97.1586408847046@wamui-kristoff.atl.sa.earthlink.net>


It is Costco.  Take it back and ask them to test it.  I believe they still have a 36 Month Limited Warranty Replacement.  I'd call your local Costco and see if they test the batteries.

Brian

-----Original Message-----
>From: Jimmie Mayfield via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>Sent: Apr 7, 2020 7:34 AM
>To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
>Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
>
>
>About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco

From TR3driver at ca.rr.com  Thu Apr  9 00:52:34 2020
From: TR3driver at ca.rr.com (Randall)
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2020 23:52:34 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <1702970555.97.1586408847046@wamui-kristoff.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <1702970555.97.1586408847046@wamui-kristoff.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AE36D3EFEA274F4BB363C6CF437BAA6B@RYPC>

I'm not sure if it's still their policy or not; but used to be you could
return batteries to customer service (rather than the battery department)
and get a full refund.  Not a warranty on the battery, just part of their
general customer satisfaction guarantee.  No testing, no questions asked.  I
did that a couple years ago with a 4 year old battery that wouldn't hold a
charge any more, and walked out with a new one for $5 (only because the core
charge went up).

-- Randall 

> It is Costco.  Take it back and ask them to test it.  I 
> believe they still have a 36 Month Limited Warranty 
> Replacement.  I'd call your local Costco and see if they test 
> the batteries.


From dave1massey at cs.com  Thu Apr  9 06:32:12 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:32:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers
In-Reply-To: <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
References: <67220A95-102D-4845-957C-5A2BC4C79786@icloud.com>
 <6e96465e-90bf-1fd6-b9f6-28be9abeedb4@sackheads.org>
Message-ID: <1614537074.1982472.1586435532476@mail.yahoo.com>

 The way these multi-phase chargers work is they charge at constant-current (Bulk Mode) until a voltage threshold (~14.25V) is reached at which point it switches to constant voltage (Absorption Mode) until the current drops below a threshold where it switches to Float Mode.? The data sheet doesn't talk much about this (or at all) but it is possible that this charger is calibrated for a 40 A-H battery more typical of what is found in private vehicles.? It is possible that the absorption current on a much larger battery (100 A-H) never gets below this threshold so the charger never switches to Float.? 

But this is just speculation.
OTOH, I had a 5-year old Optima in my TR6 that displayed the same symptom.? But on my car I can connect the charger in such a manner that I can monitor the charge current on the in-dash ammeter which never dropped below a few amps.? In fact I first noticed the problem while driving as the ammeter was centered indicating zero amps early in the drive but when approaching the house the current was definitely in showing a few amps of charge which is not at all typical.? 

I took it to the shop specializing in batteries and they rolled out their tester and pronounced it "good."? In my estimation, their test is not comprehensive and only checked for open and/or shorted cells and for current capacity.? They were more than happy to take my money when I insisted that the battery was not going to last and I was happy with replacing the battery since it was at least five years old and had been abused (completely discharged at least once).

So, I guess the short answer is what is the current into the battery when the charger hangs in the Absorption Mode?
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jimmie Mayfield via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
To: shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Tue, Apr 7, 2020 9:34 am
Subject: [Shop-talk] Float chargers

The recent discussion about solar-powered float chargers has reminded me 
of an issue that I've yet to understand or resolve...

I have a Battery Minder 12248 (12V 2/4/8A) charger/de-sulfator with 
temperature compensation sensor.? While I've never been able to 
appreciably restore a dead UPS battery using the de-sulfation mode, it 
seems to work fine as a slow charger.? It has several modes -- gel-cell, 
AGM or flooded -- which, near as I can tell, adjusts the threshold 
voltage at which the charger switches from bulk-charge mode to 
float-charge/de-sulfation mode.

Every 12V battery that I've ever connected to the charger, even the old 
AGM batteries taken out of my UPS units, eventually reached the 
threshold voltage and switched over to float mode (usually within 30-45 
minutes for a nearly-fully-charged battery).? Except one.

About 2 years ago I installed an Interstate battery from Costco (size 
27F, 890CA, 710CCA) in my truck.? It's a flooded battery and if I 
understand Interstate's spec correctly, its capacity works out to around 
100Ah.? The battery has a resting voltage of 12.6V so it doesn't appear 
to have any shorted cells and has no trouble starting my truck.? So it 
seems to be a normally healthy battery, right?

Thing is...I've never seen my charger go into float mode when connected 
to this battery even when it was nearly new.? With the recent pandemic 
stay-at-home orders, yesterday I decided to connect my truck to the 
charger to stave off parasitic drain (measured to be 20-30mA) that may 
have accumulated over the past week of inactivity.? I'm currently at 16 
hours (@4A) and it still seems to be in bulk-charging mode.? I have 
difficulty believing that the battery needed 50+ Ah.

So what's going on here?? This is the only battery that I've come across 
that behaves like this.


_______________________________________________


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From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 13:25:20 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:25:20 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure if this is the place for this...but I have a professional shop
question...

Beginning in November, I will be responsible for stocking tools for a new
maintenance crew for 200,000 square feet of new laboratory and office
buildings. We have  a little bit of everything you'd expect to find in a
large commercial building:  chillers, boilers, pumps, water loops, miles
and miles of conduit, acres of LED lighting, ducts, plumbing of all
sorts...  I have a sort of list I'm putting together, but I've been
trying to find where someone has already done the work for me.  We are more
or less starting from scratch.

Anyone know of a good resource for a list like that?

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 13:57:33 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 15:57:33 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>

Jeff: 

 

Most of my clients use some kind of CMMS ? computerized maintenance management system ? to help manage the actual work, work orders and labor. I your employer uses one, it likely has a tool inventory module included or optional. That would facilitate documenting what tools are available, location, calibration due dates, assigned owner/user, etc.

 

If not, I would look for some kind of tool inventory database to use. I don?t happen to know of one, though.

 

P.S.: I, like most of us on this list SHOULD have an inventory of my tools so if I ever need to make an insurance claim, there is a record of what was there before the loss?.. In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit! 

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 3:25 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question

 

Not sure if this is the place for this...but I have a professional shop question...

 

Beginning in November, I will be responsible for stocking tools for a new maintenance crew for 200,000 square feet of new laboratory and office buildings. We have  a little bit of everything you'd expect to find in a large commercial building:  chillers, boilers, pumps, water loops, miles and miles of conduit, acres of LED lighting, ducts, plumbing of all sorts...  I have a sort of list I'm putting together, but I've been trying to find where someone has already done the work for me.  We are more or less starting from scratch.

 

Anyone know of a good resource for a list like that?

 

Jeff Scarbrough

Corrosion Acres, Ga.

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From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 10 15:19:10 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 17:19:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>

Al writes,

> In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an 
open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit! 

OK, I'll be happy to make one for free for anyone to use.  If you 
remember, a while back, I offered to make a 'car maintenance log' for 
anyone here that wanted it.  While no one bit, I did make it, I called it 
"BOLTRAK"
You put in your cars, part numbers for oil filters, oil weight and 
capacities, etc.  Then you add a record each time you work on that 
vehicle.  It can record time and money spent, vehicle miles the work was 
performed at, etc.
I'm sure it can use some polish. It's not perfect, since I'm the only one 
using it, but I like it.
NOTE- Like me, none of my software is pretty.  It's 'brutish' at best, 
but, also like me, it gets the job done.

If there really is an interest, I'll be happy to make a web based tool 
inventory application.  A big advantage would be that it would be 100% off 
site (your site) so if the unthinkable happened, the data is safe. (of 
course, I can email you an excel spreadsheet anytime you want.)
So, just email me the features you think are important, and I'll put it 
together if there is enough interest.

What I think a record would need...
-Tool
-Brand
-Date purchased
-Amount
-Where purchased (is that worth having?)
-Photo?
-Copy of receipt?
-Where stored?

I could also do an import if you have a spreadsheet already, just send it 
to me and I can import it into your tool vault.

I could also build in an 'wife total.'  Meaning that you would click on a 
total money spent button, but it would only show you a predefined 
percentage of the actual value that you set.  IE, you set a 50% value. 
Anytime you hit the 'total spent' button, it would only show you 50% of 
the value. This would be to prevent domestic violences of course!  8>)

Any other ideas?

Again, it would be web based (not platform dependant) and 100% free all 
the time.



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Apr 10 18:35:59 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2020 20:35:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNXF-CF_qKo3WmCssz+w5cFNtZBVkEpAO5rbFU6WOnS+Q@mail.gmail.com>

> -Where purchased (is that worth having?)

Very helpful, if you want to buy another one.



On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 5:19 PM eric--- via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Al writes,
>
> > In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an
> open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit!
>
> OK, I'll be happy to make one for free for anyone to use.  If you
> remember, a while back, I offered to make a 'car maintenance log' for
> anyone here that wanted it.  While no one bit, I did make it, I called it
> "BOLTRAK"
> You put in your cars, part numbers for oil filters, oil weight and
> capacities, etc.  Then you add a record each time you work on that
> vehicle.  It can record time and money spent, vehicle miles the work was
> performed at, etc.
> I'm sure it can use some polish. It's not perfect, since I'm the only one
> using it, but I like it.
> NOTE- Like me, none of my software is pretty.  It's 'brutish' at best,
> but, also like me, it gets the job done.
>
> If there really is an interest, I'll be happy to make a web based tool
> inventory application.  A big advantage would be that it would be 100% off
> site (your site) so if the unthinkable happened, the data is safe. (of
> course, I can email you an excel spreadsheet anytime you want.)
> So, just email me the features you think are important, and I'll put it
> together if there is enough interest.
>
> What I think a record would need...
> -Tool
> -Brand
> -Date purchased
> -Amount
> -Where purchased (is that worth having?)
> -Photo?
> -Copy of receipt?
> -Where stored?
>
> I could also do an import if you have a spreadsheet already, just send it
> to me and I can import it into your tool vault.
>
> I could also build in an 'wife total.'  Meaning that you would click on a
> total money spent button, but it would only show you a predefined
> percentage of the actual value that you set.  IE, you set a 50% value.
> Anytime you hit the 'total spent' button, it would only show you 50% of the
> value. This would be to prevent domestic violences of course!  8>)
>
> Any other ideas?
>
> Again, it would be web based (not platform dependant) and 100% free all
> the time.
>
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt? _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From mark at bradakis.com  Sat Apr 11 07:04:11 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 07:04:11 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Birthday
Message-ID: <23f61762-e022-ba50-c392-515c5af3de90@bradakis.com>

April 11th.? As many of you know, the domain team.net was officially 
registered on April 11, 1991, by the late Bill Caloccia.? I have been 
managing the mailing lists on autox.team.net since then, actually for a 
while before that.? I took over? from Jim Muller, who took over from 
Dale Cook, and I wish I had archives of those first few years.? Actually 
I may have some in my office, on 1/4 inch tape cassettes.? Every now and 
then I consider trying to revive some of the old HP-UX boxes I have to 
see if I can still read any of those tapes.? Maybe someday.

Anyway, in the beginning I was routing everything through the servers at 
the University of Utah Computer Science Department, where I was 
employed.? When my fellow sys admins started noticing just how much 
network traffic there was on a certain box, my boss strongly suggested I 
make other arrangements.? So I went about getting a network connection 
at home.? Back then, it was not that easy, or cheap.? And as I recall, 
the first dedicated Team Net server was an HP box with one of the first 
100+ megahertz CPUs, and even with a deal through HP, who worked closely 
with the U in those days the system set me back about $2,500.? Hardware 
has improved since then.? And that money didn't all come out of my 
pocket, I initiated a fund drive among the list members and got a great 
response.? Back then it was all checks in the mail, and I mailed a thank 
you postcard to every contributor, or at least most of them, no doubt I 
missed a few.? And for some time there was an annual fund drive to cover 
the rather high cost of having sufficient bandwidth from my house.

So here it is 29 and just everybody has fast network available to 
them.?? I dropped the fund drives some years back, though folks do 
continue to contribute to the cause.? Now a few clicks in Paypal can 
take care of it, though some still prefer to send checks. Yep, things 
are different now.? And with the Covid-19 pandemic, a LOT different.? 
But the Team Net mailing lists are still chugging along, providing those 
spending more time at home a bit of distraction, entertainment or 
education as we keep our beloved vehicles rolling along the roads.

I plan to keep it going as long as I can, who knows how many years I 
have left.? April 11th is also my birthday, 66 this year, and I 
certainly won't live forever.? And I fear that when I die, Team Net will 
die.? Sigh.

But for now, enjoy and stay healthy.

mjb.


From eric at megageek.com  Sat Apr 11 07:13:58 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 09:13:58 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <23f61762-e022-ba50-c392-515c5af3de90@bradakis.com>
References: <23f61762-e022-ba50-c392-515c5af3de90@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <OFEAE32423.ECEFCE5C-ON85258547.004837D0-85258547.0048B1C1@mail.megageek.com>

Mjb,

HAPPY B'DAY!

Don't fear, 66 is the new 46!  You still got lots of life in you.  And I'm 
sure you'll need to find more projects to work on as you get more free 
time.

But if that doesn't cheer you up, at least you share a b'day with Steven 
Seagal (but he is younger.)  8>)

Have a great one!

Eric P


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From patintexas at icloud.com  Sat Apr 11 07:23:29 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 08:23:29 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <23f61762-e022-ba50-c392-515c5af3de90@bradakis.com>
References: <23f61762-e022-ba50-c392-515c5af3de90@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <9608C248-84B5-4A56-BB63-5ED8A8F37641@icloud.com>

Happy birthday!

Thanks for the history lesson on our beloved team net. I?ve been on since mid to late 90?s and don?t know where I?d be without it. Thanks for all your work. 

Don?t give 66 a second thought, it?s just a number. I?m coming up on 73 in July and am rebuilding my shop after a fire. I could have just bulldozed it but then what would I do with my time?

Thanks for everything. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 11, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Mark J Bradakis via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?April 11th.  As many of you know, the domain team.net was officially registered on April 11, 1991, by the late Bill Caloccia.  I have been managing the mailing lists on autox.team.net since then, actually for a while before that.  I took over  from Jim Muller, who took over from Dale Cook, and I wish I had archives of those first few years.  Actually I may have some in my office, on 1/4 inch tape cassettes.  Every now and then I consider trying to revive some of the old HP-UX boxes I have to see if I can still read any of those tapes.  Maybe someday.

Anyway, in the beginning I was routing everything through the servers at the University of Utah Computer Science Department, where I was employed.  When my fellow sys admins started noticing just how much network traffic there was on a certain box, my boss strongly suggested I make other arrangements.  So I went about getting a network connection at home.  Back then, it was not that easy, or cheap.  And as I recall, the first dedicated Team Net server was an HP box with one of the first 100+ megahertz CPUs, and even with a deal through HP, who worked closely with the U in those days the system set me back about $2,500.  Hardware has improved since then.  And that money didn't all come out of my pocket, I initiated a fund drive among the list members and got a great response.  Back then it was all checks in the mail, and I mailed a thank you postcard to every contributor, or at least most of them, no doubt I missed a few.  And for some time there was an annual fund drive to cover the rather high cost of having sufficient bandwidth from my house.

So here it is 29 and just everybody has fast network available to them.   I dropped the fund drives some years back, though folks do continue to contribute to the cause.  Now a few clicks in Paypal can take care of it, though some still prefer to send checks. Yep, things are different now.  And with the Covid-19 pandemic, a LOT different.  But the Team Net mailing lists are still chugging along, providing those spending more time at home a bit of distraction, entertainment or education as we keep our beloved vehicles rolling along the roads.

I plan to keep it going as long as I can, who knows how many years I have left.  April 11th is also my birthday, 66 this year, and I certainly won't live forever.  And I fear that when I die, Team Net will die.  Sigh.

But for now, enjoy and stay healthy.

mjb.

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From kennedybc at comcast.net  Sat Apr 11 11:01:22 2020
From: kennedybc at comcast.net (brianlpro)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 10:01:22 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question
In-Reply-To: <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DABDE62A-BA6A-4BC1-B12F-9D76106AFD40@comcast.net>

Many years ago our insurance agent asked us to take photos of our stuff. Fairly easy to do if it?s acceptable and motivation for those of us who don?t always have them stored in an orderly fashion.
Brian Kennedy
My wife thinks we have too many old cars, except of her Model A




> On Apr 10, 2020, at 12:57 PM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Jeff: 
>  
> Most of my clients use some kind of CMMS ? computerized maintenance management system ? to help manage the actual work, work orders and labor. I your employer uses one, it likely has a tool inventory module included or optional. That would facilitate documenting what tools are available, location, calibration due dates, assigned owner/user, etc.
>  
> If not, I would look for some kind of tool inventory database to use. I don?t happen to know of one, though.
>  
> P.S.: I, like most of us on this list SHOULD have an inventory of my tools so if I ever need to make an insurance claim, there is a record of what was there before the loss?.. In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit! 
>  
> ----------------
> All the best,
>  
> Al Fuller
>  
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 3:25 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question
>  
> Not sure if this is the place for this...but I have a professional shop question...
>  
> Beginning in November, I will be responsible for stocking tools for a new maintenance crew for 200,000 square feet of new laboratory and office buildings. We have  a little bit of everything you'd expect to find in a large commercial building:  chillers, boilers, pumps, water loops, miles and miles of conduit, acres of LED lighting, ducts, plumbing of all sorts...  I have a sort of list I'm putting together, but I've been trying to find where someone has already done the work for me.  We are more or less starting from scratch.
>  
> Anyone know of a good resource for a list like that?
>  
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
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From eric at megageek.com  Sat Apr 11 12:14:16 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:14:16 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question
In-Reply-To: <DABDE62A-BA6A-4BC1-B12F-9D76106AFD40@comcast.net>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <DABDE62A-BA6A-4BC1-B12F-9D76106AFD40@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <OFDBA76DBA.594445F0-ON85258547.00641E20-85258547.00642FD3@mail.megageek.com>

Brian writes...
>Many years ago our insurance agent asked us to take photos of our stuff.


That is what I currently do with a database as well.  But I'll build it 
out for others if they would want it.


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Mon Apr 13 15:49:27 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:49:27 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>

Eric - thanks for the offer, and the effort.

 

Is there any way a person would be able to self-host this?

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: eric at megageek.com <eric at megageek.com> 
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:19 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Cc: alfuller194 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one

 

Al writes, 

> In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an
open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit! 

OK, I'll be happy to make one for free for anyone to use.  If you remember,
a while back, I offered to make a 'car maintenance log' for anyone here that
wanted it.  While no one bit, I did make it, I called it "BOLTRAK" 
You put in your cars, part numbers for oil filters, oil weight and
capacities, etc.  Then you add a record each time you work on that vehicle.
It can record time and money spent, vehicle miles the work was performed at,
etc. 
I'm sure it can use some polish. It's not perfect, since I'm the only one
using it, but I like it. 
NOTE- Like me, none of my software is pretty.  It's 'brutish' at best, but,
also like me, it gets the job done. 

If there really is an interest, I'll be happy to make a web based tool
inventory application.  A big advantage would be that it would be 100% off
site (your site) so if the unthinkable happened, the data is safe. (of
course, I can email you an excel spreadsheet anytime you want.) 
So, just email me the features you think are important, and I'll put it
together if there is enough interest. 

What I think a record would need... 
-Tool 
-Brand 
-Date purchased 
-Amount 
-Where purchased (is that worth having?) 
-Photo? 
-Copy of receipt? 
-Where stored? 

I could also do an import if you have a spreadsheet already, just send it to
me and I can import it into your tool vault. 

I could also build in an 'wife total.'  Meaning that you would click on a
total money spent button, but it would only show you a predefined percentage
of the actual value that you set.  IE, you set a 50% value.  Anytime you hit
the 'total spent' button, it would only show you 50% of the value. This
would be to prevent domestic violences of course!  8>) 

Any other ideas? 

Again, it would be web based (not platform dependant) and 100% free all the
time. 



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo
Emerson 
-Who is John Galt? 

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From eric at megageek.com  Mon Apr 13 15:55:46 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 17:55:46 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
 <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF05F504DD.E70A133B-ON85258549.00782485-85258549.007876AB@mail.megageek.com>

Al writes
>Is there any way a person would be able to self-host this?

I totally understand the desire to self host.  I'd be happy to hand over 
this code, but I run a domino server and I doubt that anyone else in the 
world still does.

As it wouldn't be much help for you.  Now, if you have a domino server, 
I'll be happy to give you the template (if I make it, but there doesn't 
seem to be any real intrest in it here.)

Geeze, what's a guy got to do to give away a free web based database for 
tools to a bunch of shop hounds?  8>)



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From lists at dinospider.com  Mon Apr 13 16:45:42 2020
From: lists at dinospider.com (Mike Rambour)
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2020 15:45:42 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
 <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA35CB2F-9856-4184-9880-7E7EE799A5A3@dinospider.com>


 I made a few edits on your fields :)

Inserted in you suggestions, see below.

	mike
>  
> From: eric at megageek.com <mailto:eric at megageek.com> <eric at megageek.com <mailto:eric at megageek.com>> 
> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 5:19 PM
> To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Cc: alfuller194 at gmail.com <mailto:alfuller194 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
>  
> Al writes, 
> 
> > In other words, I you or someone else on the list comes up with an open-source or cheap solution, we can all benefit! 
> 
> OK, I'll be happy to make one for free for anyone to use.  If you remember, a while back, I offered to make a 'car maintenance log' for anyone here that wanted it.  While no one bit, I did make it, I called it "BOLTRAK" 
> You put in your cars, part numbers for oil filters, oil weight and capacities, etc.  Then you add a record each time you work on that vehicle.  It can record time and money spent, vehicle miles the work was performed at, etc. 
> I'm sure it can use some polish. It's not perfect, since I'm the only one using it, but I like it. 
> NOTE- Like me, none of my software is pretty.  It's 'brutish' at best, but, also like me, it gets the job done. 
> 
> If there really is an interest, I'll be happy to make a web based tool inventory application.  A big advantage would be that it would be 100% off site (your site) so if the unthinkable happened, the data is safe. (of course, I can email you an excel spreadsheet anytime you want.) 
> So, just email me the features you think are important, and I'll put it together if there is enough interest. 
> 
> What I think a record would need... 
> -Tool 
> -Brand 
> -Date purchased 
> -Amount 
?Amount I told the wife?. This one is nice as we get older and forget what we told her, I can guarantee she wont forget.
?Serial number? not all tools have them, but the big ones do.
> -Where purchased (is that worth having?)  
 I think it is worth having.
 And I would ?Warranty Expires? some big tools to have warranties.
> -Photo? 
> -Copy of receipt? 
> -Where stored? 
> 
> I could also do an import if you have a spreadsheet already, just send it to me and I can import it into your tool vault. 
> 
> I could also build in an 'wife total.'  Meaning that you would click on a total money spent button, but it would only show you a predefined percentage of the actual value that you set.  IE, you set a 50% value.  Anytime you hit the 'total spent' button, it would only show you 50% of the value. This would be to prevent domestic violences of course!  8>) 
> 
> Any other ideas? 
> 
> Again, it would be web based (not platform dependant) and 100% free all the time. 
> 
> 
> 
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
> -Who is John Galt?
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/lists at dinospider.com>
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Tue Apr 14 17:05:26 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2020 19:05:26 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one
In-Reply-To: <OF05F504DD.E70A133B-ON85258549.00782485-85258549.007876AB@mail.megageek.com>
References: <CAO8Q7CM7rvr-GmbS-60G2Q8x-e9XZtNyXQmp5ZV83UD2WM7b5w@mail.gmail.com>
 <023401d60f72$47193110$d54b9330$@gmail.com>
 <OFD089075B.6AF455EB-ON85258546.00739D30-85258546.00751E0B@mail.megageek.com>
 <000001d611dd$682be4c0$3883ae40$@gmail.com>
 <OF05F504DD.E70A133B-ON85258549.00782485-85258549.007876AB@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <004201d612b1$2fed23b0$8fc76b10$@gmail.com>

Eric - thanks for the offer.

 

You're right - a Domino based software wont help on the self-hosting front.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: eric at megageek.com <eric at megageek.com> 
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 5:56 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Cc: alfuller194 at gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Professional Shop Question- I'll make one

 

Al writes 
>Is there any way a person would be able to self-host this? 

I totally understand the desire to self host.  I'd be happy to hand over
this code, but I run a domino server and I doubt that anyone else in the
world still does. 

As it wouldn't be much help for you.  Now, if you have a domino server, I'll
be happy to give you the template (if I make it, but there doesn't seem to
be any real intrest in it here.) 

Geeze, what's a guy got to do to give away a free web based database for
tools to a bunch of shop hounds?  8>) 



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo
Emerson 
-Who is John Galt? 

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Apr 16 12:13:18 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 14:13:18 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
Message-ID: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>

Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:

1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
3. Helical piles 

I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 

I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.

thanks,
jim

From patintexas at icloud.com  Thu Apr 16 17:14:46 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 18:14:46 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>
References: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <AD6C4CAF-64E0-441D-BBB5-E3CEF40F7F1C@icloud.com>

24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:

1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
3. Helical piles 

I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 

I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.

thanks,
jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com


From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Thu Apr 16 20:15:42 2020
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 02:15:42 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <AD6C4CAF-64E0-441D-BBB5-E3CEF40F7F1C@icloud.com>
References: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>,
 <AD6C4CAF-64E0-441D-BBB5-E3CEF40F7F1C@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <MN2PR11MB4318EE60A534BA2C4CDC12E69AD90@MN2PR11MB4318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck.

In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle.

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks

24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them.

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>

?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:

1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
3. Helical piles

I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard.

I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.

thanks,
jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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From pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com  Fri Apr 17 06:02:13 2020
From: pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com (PJ McGarvey)
Date: Fri, 17 Apr 2020 12:02:13 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <DCE1E0DE-23BD-4175-A791-BA101BECD4DF@groupwbench.org>
References: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>
 <AD6C4CAF-64E0-441D-BBB5-E3CEF40F7F1C@icloud.com>
 <MN2PR11MB4318EE60A534BA2C4CDC12E69AD90@MN2PR11MB4318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>,
 <DCE1E0DE-23BD-4175-A791-BA101BECD4DF@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <MN2PR11MB43187D25A24CCE423CE9AE759AD90@MN2PR11MB4318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

The site-mix truck that delivered mine fit down my 8' driveway. When I scheduled the delivery they requested something crazy like 15 feet of space. Might depend on your driver, but he was cooperative enough to let me prop up my fiber optic line while he slowly moved the truck under it. I'm not sure how much chute he could have given me but I just wheelbarrowed it about 20 feet to where my holes were. Might be worth a call to see how accommodating they are.
________________________________
From: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 10:44 PM
To: PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>
Cc: Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com>; Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks

Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22".

Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...

On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com<mailto:pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>> wrote:

I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck.

In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle.

________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org<mailto:jamesf at groupwbench.org>>
Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks

24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them.

Peace,
Pat

Pat Horne
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>

?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:

1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
3. Helical piles

I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard.

I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.

thanks,
jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net<mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 09:27:26 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 10:27:26 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for a "remote switch" that turns on a shop vac when I hit the
trigger on a saw, router, etc. I'm certain that I've seen something like
this but I can't seem to find anything after spending a couple of hours
on-line.

There are remote switches that use a RF remote, but I want one that senses
the current flow when the saw's turns on which then switches on the plug
the vacuum is plugged into.

Should be able to build it, but buying off the shelf would be simpler.

TIA,
Ron
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From eric at megageek.com  Sat Apr 18 09:47:39 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:47:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OF37E6B561.FBF771E6-ON8525854E.0056A59C-8525854E.0056C345@mail.megageek.com>

Ron asks about remote switches.

Is this what you want?

https://www.rockler.com/ivac-dust-collector-switch-box , 

It states that it turns on automaticly with the unit.  They also have 
remote control switches, but I think this is what you were asking for,



"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From tim at chenhoerning.com  Sat Apr 18 10:27:08 2020
From: tim at chenhoerning.com (Tim Hoerning)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 12:27:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
In-Reply-To: <OF37E6B561.FBF771E6-ON8525854E.0056A59C-8525854E.0056C345@mail.megageek.com>
References: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <OF37E6B561.FBF771E6-ON8525854E.0056A59C-8525854E.0056C345@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <736A7025-8870-426D-BD80-FB7C818C0348@chenhoerning.com>

How much power are you talking about?   Found these at the local dollar store and it seems like it would work if the draw isn?t too much 

https://www.amazon.com/Sunbeam-Advance-Outlet-Strips-Protector/dp/B07K3ZLMP7

Tim

> On Apr 18, 2020, at 11:47 AM, eric--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Ron asks about remote switches. 
> 
> Is this what you want? 
> 
> https://www.rockler.com/ivac-dust-collector-switch-box <https://www.rockler.com/ivac-dust-collector-switch-box> , 
> 
> It states that it turns on automaticly with the unit.  They also have remote control switches, but I think this is what you were asking for, 
> 
> 
> 
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/tim at chenhoerning.com
> 

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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 10:31:22 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 11:31:22 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
In-Reply-To: <OF37E6B561.FBF771E6-ON8525854E.0056A59C-8525854E.0056C345@mail.megageek.com>
References: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <OF37E6B561.FBF771E6-ON8525854E.0056A59C-8525854E.0056C345@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6cxzoE7SxiHSTdwswO3fmZRh+_Djdd_3jsNHCRXOHbNKA@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Eric. I also found the I Socket. Looked at the iVac and found they
offer a "Pro" version that's rated for 20 amps AND has a 1.5 sec start
delay and selectable accessory power off. I particularly like the start
offset to minimize current surge, even though our shop is all 20 amp
circuits.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 10:47 AM <eric at megageek.com> wrote:

> Ron asks about remote switches.
>
> Is this what you want?
>
> *https://www.rockler.com/ivac-dust-collector-switch-box*
> <https://www.rockler.com/ivac-dust-collector-switch-box> ,
>
> It states that it turns on automaticly with the unit.  They also have
> remote control switches, but I think this is what you were asking for,
>
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 13:18:55 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 15:18:55 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
In-Reply-To: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CNkuQtfh_kDm_x5fHGepC-xFVjKsoiW7hH9X-rj4QZnRw@mail.gmail.com>

A bit more fiddly, but look at how a central vacuum system works.  Every
place you have to plug in a hose, there are  a pair of metal pins.  Push
the hose in, and the metal sleeve connects the pins and energizes a relay
that starts the vacuum.

A relay or motor starter for the vacuum and a handy switch near each tool
would let you turn it on as you turn on each tool.  Yes, you have to flip a
switch, but you don't have to leave the tool to do it.  And I bet it's a
whole lot cheaper than a lot of these other systems.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.


On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 11:28 AM Ronnie Day via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Looking for a "remote switch" that turns on a shop vac when I hit the
> trigger on a saw, router, etc. I'm certain that I've seen something like
> this but I can't seem to find anything after spending a couple of hours
> on-line.
>
> There are remote switches that use a RF remote, but I want one that senses
> the current flow when the saw's turns on which then switches on the plug
> the vacuum is plugged into.
>
> Should be able to build it, but buying off the shelf would be simpler.
>
> TIA,
> Ron
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From ronnie.day at gmail.com  Sat Apr 18 17:36:53 2020
From: ronnie.day at gmail.com (Ronnie Day)
Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2020 18:36:53 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Remote power switch
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CNkuQtfh_kDm_x5fHGepC-xFVjKsoiW7hH9X-rj4QZnRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMHhs6emJBi=yZ-qu1s+J9kPr-UAc+6MKeGd4nOdURf=NvsnaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CNkuQtfh_kDm_x5fHGepC-xFVjKsoiW7hH9X-rj4QZnRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHhs6fd7DuNVWW+TUgmBBAo5HmvDFgs3n_LB1Z8QhhZT-J23g@mail.gmail.com>

Good idea, except we?re not doing a central system, and may not. But for
now we don?t want sawdust all over the place, regardless. A switch  like
this is the easiest solution, IMO.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 2:19 PM Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> A bit more fiddly, but look at how a central vacuum system works.  Every
> place you have to plug in a hose, there are  a pair of metal pins.  Push
> the hose in, and the metal sleeve connects the pins and energizes a relay
> that starts the vacuum.
>
> A relay or motor starter for the vacuum and a handy switch near each tool
> would let you turn it on as you turn on each tool.  Yes, you have to flip a
> switch, but you don't have to leave the tool to do it.  And I bet it's a
> whole lot cheaper than a lot of these other systems.
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 18, 2020 at 11:28 AM Ronnie Day via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> Looking for a "remote switch" that turns on a shop vac when I hit the
>> trigger on a saw, router, etc. I'm certain that I've seen something like
>> this but I can't seem to find anything after spending a couple of hours
>> on-line.
>>
>> There are remote switches that use a RF remote, but I want one that
>> senses the current flow when the saw's turns on which then switches on the
>> plug the vacuum is plugged into.
>>
>> Should be able to build it, but buying off the shelf would be simpler.
>>
>> TIA,
>> Ron
>>
> _______________________________________________
>>
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
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>
>
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Thu Apr 16 20:44:48 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2020 22:44:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <MN2PR11MB4318EE60A534BA2C4CDC12E69AD90@MN2PR11MB4318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <C16C1930-BA85-4FEB-8A72-96602A9E51DE@groupwbench.org>
 <AD6C4CAF-64E0-441D-BBB5-E3CEF40F7F1C@icloud.com>
 <MN2PR11MB4318EE60A534BA2C4CDC12E69AD90@MN2PR11MB4318.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <DCE1E0DE-23BD-4175-A791-BA101BECD4DF@groupwbench.org>

Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22". 

Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...

> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck. 
> 
> In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle. 
> 
> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
> To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
> Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
>  
> 24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> > 
> 
> ?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:
> 
> 1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
> 2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
> 3. Helical piles 
> 
> I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 
> 
> I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.
> 
> thanks,
> jim
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
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> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>
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From bk13 at earthlink.net  Tue Apr 21 22:13:39 2020
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2020 21:13:39 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
Message-ID: <307355996.13111.1587528820860@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Apr 22 13:36:39 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:36:39 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <307355996.13111.1587528820860@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <307355996.13111.1587528820860@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <82E99FF9-3BF0-4C4E-9D4B-9A49AB25142D@groupwbench.org>

I found a "loophole" in the code. If the deck is freestanding and under 30" high, it doesn't need to be at the frost line. I found these anchored surface footings that might do quite well:

https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php <https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php>

The only issue is that the new deck with be 4 steps down from the one anchored to the house, so the connection between the two needs to be fluid, which means one end of the stairs needs to float. I'm trying to come up with a design where the risers adjust as the lower deck rises and falls with frost, and the riser heights stay equidistant from each other, but I'm not getting there. Maybe I build a ramp instead...

jim



> On Apr 22, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Try a search for "concrete trailer" or call some local concrete companies.  If you can drive a pickup or SUV near the footings, one of these might be the way to go.  An explanation is at https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php <https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php> 
> 
> Brian
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Jim Franklin via Shop-talk 
> Sent: Apr 16, 2020 7:44 PM 
> To: PJ McGarvey 
> Cc: Shop-talk 
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks 
> 
> Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22". 
> 
> Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...
> 
>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com <mailto:pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck. 
>> 
>> In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle. 
>> 
>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
>> To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org <mailto:jamesf at groupwbench.org>>
>> Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
>>  
>> 24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 
>> 
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>> 
>> Pat Horne 
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> 
>> 
>> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>> > 
>> 
>> ?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:
>> 
>> 1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
>> 2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
>> 3. Helical piles 
>> 
>> I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 
>> 
>> I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Apr 22 14:16:07 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 16:16:07 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <46E097C4-F22E-460A-AE01-6CFB157E9F77@icloud.com>
References: <82E99FF9-3BF0-4C4E-9D4B-9A49AB25142D@groupwbench.org>
 <46E097C4-F22E-460A-AE01-6CFB157E9F77@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <059A30D2-0318-489C-B66A-07A30716657F@groupwbench.org>

The image came through but I couldn't get enough from it to understand how they work. I'd be interested in the design from an intellectual standpoint but having done a bit of reading on this now, it seems the amount of rise from frost would cause minimal change in angle of the treads (code allows for 1/4" per foot) and that using a regular wood stringer, attached by a hinge at the top, would be well within that threshold.

thanks,
jim

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Jim, I haves design that will work for your steps. I have a set of stairs that came from a local airport. They are the stairs that go from the jet way, right at the plane to the tarmac. They have to allow for different height planes while keeping the stair treads level. I?ll draw up a rough drawing for you if you like. I?ll also attach a photo to this email but I think it will be stripped. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> <image0.jpeg>
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
> 
> ?I found a "loophole" in the code. If the deck is freestanding and under 30" high, it doesn't need to be at the frost line. I found these anchored surface footings that might do quite well:
> 
> https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php <https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php>
> 
> The only issue is that the new deck with be 4 steps down from the one anchored to the house, so the connection between the two needs to be fluid, which means one end of the stairs needs to float. I'm trying to come up with a design where the risers adjust as the lower deck rises and falls with frost, and the riser heights stay equidistant from each other, but I'm not getting there. Maybe I build a ramp instead...
> 
> jim
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net <mailto:bk13 at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Try a search for "concrete trailer" or call some local concrete companies.  If you can drive a pickup or SUV near the footings, one of these might be the way to go.  An explanation is at https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php <https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php> 
>> 
>> Brian
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Jim Franklin via Shop-talk 
>> Sent: Apr 16, 2020 7:44 PM 
>> To: PJ McGarvey 
>> Cc: Shop-talk 
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks 
>> 
>> Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22". 
>> 
>> Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...
>> 
>>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com <mailto:pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck. 
>>> 
>>> In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle. 
>>> 
>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net>> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
>>> To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org <mailto:jamesf at groupwbench.org>>
>>> Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>>
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
>>>  
>>> 24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 
>>> 
>>> Peace,
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> Pat Horne 
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> 
>>> ?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:
>>> 
>>> 1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
>>> 2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
>>> 3. Helical piles 
>>> 
>>> I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 
>>> 
>>> I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> jim
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com>
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html <http://www.team.net/donate.html>
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk <http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk> http://autox.team.net/archive <http://autox.team.net/archive>
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com <http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com>
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Apr 22 14:26:17 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:26:17 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <059A30D2-0318-489C-B66A-07A30716657F@groupwbench.org>
References: <059A30D2-0318-489C-B66A-07A30716657F@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <745DB2A2-2CF2-44DF-AA56-C66621570FFC@icloud.com>

I?ll do a drawing. Basically, instead of fixed stringers on the sides of the stairs, there is a piece on angle iron connecting the front edge of all the stair treads & another piece of angle connecting all the rear edges of the treads. These connections are not solid, but allow the treads to rotate. The upper ends of the angles are likewise connected to a fixed landing extension of the upper deck. They are attached @ the same distance as the depth of the treads. In my case there are wheels that allow the bottom of the stairs to move around. 

Picture to follow. 

Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 22, 2020, at 3:16 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?The image came through but I couldn't get enough from it to understand how they work. I'd be interested in the design from an intellectual standpoint but having done a bit of reading on this now, it seems the amount of rise from frost would cause minimal change in angle of the treads (code allows for 1/4" per foot) and that using a regular wood stringer, attached by a hinge at the top, would be well within that threshold.

thanks,
jim

> On Apr 22, 2020, at 4:03 PM, Pat Horne <patintexas at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> Jim, I haves design that will work for your steps. I have a set of stairs that came from a local airport. They are the stairs that go from the jet way, right at the plane to the tarmac. They have to allow for different height planes while keeping the stair treads level. I?ll draw up a rough drawing for you if you like. I?ll also attach a photo to this email but I think it will be stripped. 
> 
> Peace,
> Pat
> 
> <image0.jpeg>
> 
> Pat Horne 
> We support Habitat for Humanity
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> 
> 
> ?I found a "loophole" in the code. If the deck is freestanding and under 30" high, it doesn't need to be at the frost line. I found these anchored surface footings that might do quite well:
> 
> https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php
> 
> The only issue is that the new deck with be 4 steps down from the one anchored to the house, so the connection between the two needs to be fluid, which means one end of the stairs needs to float. I'm trying to come up with a design where the risers adjust as the lower deck rises and falls with frost, and the riser heights stay equidistant from each other, but I'm not getting there. Maybe I build a ramp instead...
> 
> jim
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 22, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Try a search for "concrete trailer" or call some local concrete companies.  If you can drive a pickup or SUV near the footings, one of these might be the way to go.  An explanation is at https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php 
>> 
>> Brian
>> -----Original Message----- 
>> From: Jim Franklin via Shop-talk 
>> Sent: Apr 16, 2020 7:44 PM 
>> To: PJ McGarvey 
>> Cc: Shop-talk 
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks 
>> 
>> Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22". 
>> 
>> Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...
>> 
>>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck. 
>>> 
>>> In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle. 
>>> 
>>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
>>> To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
>>> Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
>>>  
>>> 24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 
>>> 
>>> Peace,
>>> Pat
>>> 
>>> Pat Horne 
>>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>>> 
>>> 
>>> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>>> > 
>>> 
>>> ?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:
>>> 
>>> 1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
>>> 2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
>>> 3. Helical piles 
>>> 
>>> I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 
>>> 
>>> I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.
>>> 
>>> thanks,
>>> jim
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> 
>>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>>> 
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
> 

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From patintexas at icloud.com  Wed Apr 22 14:03:20 2020
From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne)
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 15:03:20 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
In-Reply-To: <82E99FF9-3BF0-4C4E-9D4B-9A49AB25142D@groupwbench.org>
References: <82E99FF9-3BF0-4C4E-9D4B-9A49AB25142D@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <46E097C4-F22E-460A-AE01-6CFB157E9F77@icloud.com>

Jim, I haves design that will work for your steps. I have a set of stairs that came from a local airport. They are the stairs that go from the jet way, right at the plane to the tarmac. They have to allow for different height planes while keeping the stair treads level. I?ll draw up a rough drawing for you if you like. I?ll also attach a photo to this email but I think it will be stripped. 

Peace,
Pat



Pat Horne 
We support Habitat for Humanity


> On Apr 22, 2020, at 2:46 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 

?I found a "loophole" in the code. If the deck is freestanding and under 30" high, it doesn't need to be at the frost line. I found these anchored surface footings that might do quite well:

https://shop.titanbuildingproducts.com/deck-foot.php

The only issue is that the new deck with be 4 steps down from the one anchored to the house, so the connection between the two needs to be fluid, which means one end of the stairs needs to float. I'm trying to come up with a design where the risers adjust as the lower deck rises and falls with frost, and the riser heights stay equidistant from each other, but I'm not getting there. Maybe I build a ramp instead...

jim



> On Apr 22, 2020, at 12:13 AM, Brian Kemp <bk13 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> Try a search for "concrete trailer" or call some local concrete companies.  If you can drive a pickup or SUV near the footings, one of these might be the way to go.  An explanation is at https://www.sepulveda.com/product_families/concrete_to_go/concrete_to_go.php 
> 
> Brian
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Jim Franklin via Shop-talk 
> Sent: Apr 16, 2020 7:44 PM 
> To: PJ McGarvey 
> Cc: Shop-talk 
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks 
> 
> Yep, 18" is spot on per the beam and joist spacing, but the pre-cast footer only comes in 22". 
> 
> Getting the concrete to the location will be difficult. The house is up a 100' inclined driveway that won't support a full sized truck, and the then another 100' around back to the site. Even a pumper would need a lot of hose. Are there smaller/lighter site-mix trucks now? I suppose they could pump it to the top of the driveway and wheelbarrow it around back...
> 
>> On Apr 16, 2020, at 10:15 PM, PJ McGarvey <pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I doubt you'll need more than 18" diameter footings for a deck. 
>> 
>> In any case, I would pay a bit more for concrete delivery. I did this in November for a 16'x16' screened porch I'm almost finished with. For that diameter and depth, that's alot of concrete to mix correctly. In an hour you can have it delivered, poured, and save alot of hassle. 
>> 
>> From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of Pat Horne via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 7:14 PM
>> To: Jim Franklin <jamesf at groupwbench.org>
>> Cc: Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Footings and piers for decks
>>  
>> 24? diameter hole is pretty large. I had 24? piers drilled by a company. They brought a large drill truck. I had 3 piers drilled 25? deep, including bell bottoms. Cost was $800. Only reason I brought this up is it might not be that much over the cost of the skid steer to have someone else drill them. 
>> 
>> Peace,
>> Pat
>> 
>> Pat Horne 
>> We support Habitat for Humanity
>> 
>> 
>> > On Apr 16, 2020, at 1:13 PM, Jim Franklin via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>> > 
>> 
>> ?Having decided it's better to build a nice ornate deck out of PT than a small simple deck of of fancy materials, I'm looking at the foundation. Frost line here is 48" and I need 18" footings. I have found 3 options and I'm wondering if I missed anything:
>> 
>> 1. Traditional concrete with forms and sonotubes
>> 2. Pre-cast footings (22", 100 lbs)  and stackable piers (EZ-Tube)
>> 3. Helical piles 
>> 
>> I haven't heard back from the town on that last one and they're the priciest at $275 per. The pre-cast are $150 per. Concrete will require hauling about 45,000 bags into the backyard. 
>> 
>> I'm leaning towards #2 . I don't own any yard equipment but I can rent a skid steer with auger, though not a 24" auger I don't think.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/pj_mcgarvey at hotmail.com

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From eric at megageek.com  Fri Apr 24 05:46:02 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 07:46:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
Message-ID: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>

Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?

Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on 
my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in 
there has been there a few years.

My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full 
throttle, it seems to sputter a little.

Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or 
is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to 
do?

Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 
tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the 
bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?

Thanks!


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From bjzwissler at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 06:16:10 2020
From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 08:16:10 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAMHq6ZzKAN9m+3wMGqDnptOnRvucnU1DEcjLnKf70v0s98NuSw@mail.gmail.com>

Diesel fuel goes bad over time.  Just like gasoline the fuel is not
stable.  There are ways to test it but to my knowledge it means sending a
sample to a lab.  Besides sludge and solids accumulating there's some green
mold/fungus that grows in it.  They make fuel conditioner with biocide to
make it last longer but a "few years" is longer than any of them would say
they would protect fuel. Your symptom sounds like a plugged fuel filter.
If you don't have a water separator and fuel filter on your tank I'd add
those and change the filter on your tractor.  Get good filters rated for
the lowest particle size you can.  Injector tolerances and tiny and even
very small particles will cause them to fail.  Ag equipment isn't designed
to as tight a tolerance as on-highway because they didn't have to meet the
strict emissions standards as early, but skimping on filter costs will
result in much higher costs in repairs.  On of my favorite lines from some
Triumph shop manuals starts "It is false economy to reuse (some part I
don't remember)"   So paraphrasing... "It is false economy to use cheap
fuel filters on a diesel engine."

Regarding using the old fuel it all depends on how much you want to spend
on filters and repairs versus disposing of the $150 worth of diesel you've
got in the tank.  The rule of thumb is to not have more than six months
supply on hand.   Older engines will be more tolerant of it than later
(last 10-15 years) engines.  That's why the guys that were cooking their
own biodiesel from french fry oil wanted engines from before the 90s.


Ben Zwissler
bjzwissler at gmail.com
812-343-5533
Columbus, IN


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?
>
> Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on
> my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in
> there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full
> throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or
> is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to
> do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250
> tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the
> bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com
>
>
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From nick at landform.co.uk  Fri Apr 24 06:44:46 2020
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:44:46 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <9ec123e6-d2d3-b2be-c1fb-b022686bf281@landform.co.uk>

Hi Eric,

First thing check the tractor fuel filter. If it has a grey mush coating 
it that's a pointer for poor fuel, or an old filter. If so change the 
filter as a first step then keep an eye on it regularly. You could fill 
a transparent jug or jar then let it stand for a few days, see if any 
water settles out.

I use about 500 gallons a year of gas oil (ag diesel) and always put an 
additive in it:

https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-store-plus/

Modern diesel often has proportion of biodiesel in it leading to 
problems down the line. Using that additive I've never had a problem. 
Regarding reviving the fuel the same company also supply a "Fuel 
Reviver". Never used it but here it is:

https://fastexocet.co.uk/product/fuel-reviver/

Like me the company is based in the UK but I'm sure a phone call would 
answer any questions. Looking at the website you can see they can supply 
an additive for just about any situation you can think of. They may well 
sell in the US and I'm sure US made products are available. Ask your 
diesel supplier.

Nick Brearley


On 24/04/2020 12:46, eric--- via Shop-talk wrote:
> Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?
>
> Here is my situation. ?I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors 
> on my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.) ?The 
> fuel in there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny. ?At 
> full throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. 
> Or is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another 
> test to do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 
> 250 tank. ?Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out 
> all the bad first? ?What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the 
> bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a 
> rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your 
> territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nick at landform.co.uk
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 07:14:59 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 09:14:59 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>

We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go
through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the fact
that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, there is
still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bothers
me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug of biocide in
one year with the fresh fuel.

Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check
fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to
make sure they will run when we need them.

Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from the
tank, and let us know what you find.

There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or
tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored
diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.

Jeff Scarbrough
Corrosion Acres, Ga.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?
>
> Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on
> my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in
> there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full
> throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or
> is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to
> do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250
> tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the
> bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 08:30:13 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 10:30:13 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>

Jeff [and all]:

 

As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. 

 

The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn?t support the load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but unable to power the building!

 

As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be tested ahead of time ? in the same way you would use it.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

 

 

We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the fact that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug of biocide in one year with the fresh fuel.

 

Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to make sure they will run when we need them.  

 

Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from the tank, and let us know what you find.

 

There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.

 

Jeff Scarbrough

Corrosion Acres, Ga.

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:

Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad? 

Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in there has been there a few years. 

My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full throttle, it seems to sputter a little. 

Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to do? 

Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel? 

Thanks! 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com

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From fishplate at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 09:21:24 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:21:24 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CO=002A3i4SwzMVTBsQdaiFrxxVsTX9KMeBdUAYtq0XCA@mail.gmail.com>

Al,

You are correct - it is the engines that get exercised, not the
generator, and that's an important distinction.  Do you do validation or
commissioning, or both?

Our generators  have been reliable so far in real emergencies, but live
load testing with our current facility involves some challenges that have
consequences we don't care to risk if we can help it.

Our new facility, currently under construction (coming online at the end of
this year, pandemic notwithstanding), has two  2MW generators (3800 gallons
each) with load bank for testing.  So we will exercise the generator along
with the diesel engine.  We will probably include live load testing of the
entire system including transfer switch, tie breaker for redundant power
systems, and redundant power supply for one building, at least
semi-annually.  As this place won't be a patchwork of 50 years of
continuous improvement with all that implies, I'm planning on the whole
thing being seamless and trouble-free.

A boy can dream, right?

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Jeff [and all]:
>
>
>
> As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30
> minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say
> the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators].
>
>
>
> The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch,
> wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel
> weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was
> down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It turned
> out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when the
> generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn?t support the
> load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but
> unable to power the building!
>
>
>
> As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be
> tested ahead of time ? in the same way you would use it.
>
>
>
> ----------------
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Al Fuller
>
>
>
> *From:* Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> *On Behalf Of *Jeff
> Scarbrough via Shop-talk
> *Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
> *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
>
>
>
>
>
> We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go
> through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the fact
> that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, there is
> still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bothers
> me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug of biocide in
> one year with the fresh fuel.
>
>
>
> Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check
> fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to
> make sure they will run when we need them.
>
>
>
> Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from the
> tank, and let us know what you find.
>
>
>
> There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or
> tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored
> diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.
>
>
>
> Jeff Scarbrough
>
> Corrosion Acres, Ga.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad?
>
> Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on
> my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in
> there has been there a few years.
>
> My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full
> throttle, it seems to sputter a little.
>
> Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or
> is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to
> do?
>
> Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250
> tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the
> bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel?
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com
>
>
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From ejrussell at mebtel.net  Fri Apr 24 09:27:08 2020
From: ejrussell at mebtel.net (Eric Russell)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:27:08 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d766531c-1850-e8fe-a4cb-145651441709@mebtel.net>

Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have too much 
free time now), here's my story about emergency generators. At the time 
I was working (RN) night shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about 
6am the hospital would test their emergency generator. It was supposed 
to be a quick blink from regular power to emergency power. Except in our 
ICU (and only the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun 
when you have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. 
It got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and 
manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning.

I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the power 
would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally convinced the 
chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the 
power went off for a full 5 minutes and the color drained from his face. 
Whatever was the problem finally got fixed.

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC

On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk wrote:
> As regards the comment you made below that the generators get 
> exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like 
> you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the 
> generators].
>
> The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, 
> wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel 
> weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility 
> was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. 
> It turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than 
> when the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn?t 
> support the load.? It was very frustrating to have a working diesel 
> generator, but unable to power the building!
>
>

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From markmiller at threeboysfarm.com  Fri Apr 24 13:21:04 2020
From: markmiller at threeboysfarm.com (Mark Miller)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:21:04 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Backup problems (was: diesel fuel question,
 then backup generator issues)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.9.1587751202.25680.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
References: <mailman.9.1587751202.25680.shop-talk@autox.team.net>
Message-ID: <f49923c9-90f0-3878-492d-5017e0b4452f@threeboysfarm.com>

I would guess you were not on the emergency power system at all; it came 
back on after 5 minutes because the test was complete and you went back 
to mains power feed.

Even more off topic here.

Not life threatening as your situation was but I once worked at a 
mini-computer manufacturer where we got fancy: hired someone to run our 
system backups so we engineers didn't have to take turns babysitting it 
nightly. Eventually we had a problem as we had more data than would fit 
on a single tape (1/2" 9 track). Note that this was still under 200Mb 
(Mb, not Gb), now a $2 thumb drive. So the code was updated to flow onto 
another tape and a message to the backup operator when the tape reached 
the end popped up "mount other tape".? Fast forward until someone went 
to use the backup after a disk crash and it was unusable:? our data had 
grown so that we now needed 2+ tapes but with the message that came up 
the operator put the first tape back? in for the second change, 
overwriting the first tape in the backup. Oops.

Regards,

Mark Miller   707-490-5834
markmiller at threeboysfarm.com


> From: Eric Russell <ejrussell at mebtel.net>
> To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
> Message-ID: <d766531c-1850-e8fe-a4cb-145651441709 at mebtel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have too much
> free time now), here's my story about emergency generators. At the time
> I was working (RN) night shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about
> 6am the hospital would test their emergency generator. It was supposed
> to be a quick blink from regular power to emergency power. Except in our
> ICU (and only the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun
> when you have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up.
> It got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and
> manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning.
>
> I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the power
> would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally convinced the
> chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the
> power went off for a full 5 minutes and the color drained from his face.
> Whatever was the problem finally got fixed.
>
> Eric Russell
> Mebane, NC
>
> On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk wrote:
>

From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 17:59:23 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 19:59:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CO=002A3i4SwzMVTBsQdaiFrxxVsTX9KMeBdUAYtq0XCA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
 <CAO8Q7CO=002A3i4SwzMVTBsQdaiFrxxVsTX9KMeBdUAYtq0XCA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00e001d61a94$614da9d0$23e8fd70$@gmail.com>

Hi Jeff:

 

We do commissioning and validation. Lately it is mostly for FDA-regulated facilities [pharmaceutical, biotech, medical device, etc.] ? but also financial services and others.  And, Yup ? a boy CAN dream!! ?

 

It turns out that I am the ?jinx? when it comes to power failures: 

*	Supplier in Las Vegas had a battery backup system. It turns out when the power failed they had never serviced the batteries?
*	Client in Memphis had the wind storm and the transfer switch failed, no power to the building
*	Client in Minnesota lost electricity after a ~18 inch snow storm. Four (4) buildings on the campus each had individual natural-gas fired generators. One was less than 6 months old and HAD been tested as part of standing up the building. When I drove up in my Land Cruiser, the whole campus was dark! Although I had not personally been involved with validation of the building or generator, I was able to diagnose the campus-wide lack of power to a validation issue in about three minutes. I had then up and running within 10 minutes and headed back to my hotel, as the offices were closed.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:21 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

 

Al,

 

You are correct - it is the engines that get exercised, not the generator, and that's an important distinction.  Do you do validation or commissioning, or both?  

 

Our generators  have been reliable so far in real emergencies, but live load testing with our current facility involves some challenges that have consequences we don't care to risk if we can help it.  

Our new facility, currently under construction (coming online at the end of this year, pandemic notwithstanding), has two  2MW generators (3800 gallons each) with load bank for testing.  So we will exercise the generator along with the diesel engine.  We will probably include live load testing of the entire system including transfer switch, tie breaker for redundant power systems, and redundant power supply for one building, at least semi-annually.  As this place won't be a patchwork of 50 years of continuous improvement with all that implies, I'm planning on the whole thing being seamless and trouble-free.

A boy can dream, right?

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:31 AM Al Fuller via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:

Jeff [and all]:

 

As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. 

 

The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn?t support the load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but unable to power the building!

 

As a validation person, our motto is if it needs to work, it needs to be tested ahead of time ? in the same way you would use it.

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> > On Behalf Of Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 9:15 AM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

 

 

We have two 500kW generators at work.  Each has a 1400 gallon tank; we go through about 500-800 gallons per year.  I expect that, despite the fact that these generators are having their 21st birthday this year, there is still some portion of fuel in the tank that is 21 years old.  This bothers me a little bit, but it keeps working.  We did throw a jug of biocide in one year with the fresh fuel.

 

Having said that, we have a service guy come in twice a year to check fluids and change filters, and they get exercised 30 minutes a week just to make sure they will run when we need them.  

 

Do like the others have said:  check filters, check a fuel sample from the tank, and let us know what you find.

 

There exist people who do fuel polishing - they come to your large ship or tank farm and run an extra fuel cleaning and refreshing for your stored diesel fuel.  Might be a bit of overkill on the farm.

 

Jeff Scarbrough

Corrosion Acres, Ga.

 

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 7:46 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net> > wrote:

Does anyone know of a way to tell if diesel fuel has gone bad? 

Here is my situation.  I have a large diesel fuel tank for my tractors on my property (so I don't have to buy 'over the road' diesel.)  The fuel in there has been there a few years. 

My newest tractor (a small 25hp subcompact) started acting funny.  At full throttle, it seems to sputter a little. 

Could be a fuel problem, but I would love to test the diesel somehow. Or is there a way of looking at the filter on the tractor? Or another test to do? 

Related follow up, if the fuel is bad, and I have about 50 gals in a 250 tank.  Can I just add fresh fuel to it, or do I need to drain out all the bad first?  What would be a good bad/good ratio to dilute the bad fuel? 

Thanks! 


"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net> 
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From alfuller194 at gmail.com  Fri Apr 24 18:03:23 2020
From: alfuller194 at gmail.com (alfuller194 at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 20:03:23 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question
In-Reply-To: <d766531c-1850-e8fe-a4cb-145651441709@mebtel.net>
References: <OFF7446595.89F64735-ON85258554.00402A2E-85258554.0040A447@mail.megageek.com>
 <CAO8Q7CPgzoQnK9WGYLn4z+miWd-P7YE7frJnhMOW=h0N0UiCig@mail.gmail.com>
 <09ce01d61a44$deb43a60$9c1caf20$@gmail.com>
 <d766531c-1850-e8fe-a4cb-145651441709@mebtel.net>
Message-ID: <00ea01d61a94$f03140d0$d093c270$@gmail.com>

Eric ? it sounds like the system ?worked? [albeit in a perverse way?]. The testing should illuminate any weaknesses in the system and allow for fixing that before it?s really needed. Luckily you were able to persist!

 

----------------

All the best,

 

Al Fuller

 

From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Eric Russell via Shop-talk
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:27 AM
To: shop-talk at autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] diesel fuel question

 

Since we've drifted a little bit off-topic (and we likely have too much free time now), here's my story about emergency generators. At the time I was working (RN) night shift in a hospital ICU. Every Tuesday about 6am the hospital would test their emergency generator. It was supposed to be a quick blink from regular power to emergency power. Except in our ICU (and only the ICU) the power would be off for 3-5 minutes! Not fun when you have patients on ventilators that did not have battery back-up. It got so bad I would remind my staff to stand by with flashlights and manual Ambu bags every Tuesday morning. 

I complained to the engineering department but they insisted the power would only be off for a few seconds at most. I finally convinced the chief engineer to come sit in our unit on a Tuesday morning. He did, the power went off for a full 5 minutes and the color drained from his face. Whatever was the problem finally got fixed. 

Eric Russell
Mebane, NC 

 

On 4/24/2020 10:30 AM, Al Fuller via Shop-talk wrote:

As regards the comment you made below that the generators get exercised 30 minutes a week: Please keep in mind that its sounds like you meant to say the diesel engines get exercised [as opposed to the generators]. 

 

The difference is the generator set also includes the transfer switch, wiring and other components. I had one client that fired up the diesel weekly, but when a wind storm blew down the power lines, the facility was down for a week while they tried to locate a new transfer switch. It turned out the building housed a lot more people and equipment than when the generator set was first specified and the switch set couldn?t support the load.  It was very frustrating to have a working diesel generator, but unable to power the building!





 

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From eric at megageek.com  Mon Apr 27 12:12:01 2020
From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:12:01 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
Message-ID: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>

Hello all,

My next question is about bulk'ish plastic storage bins.

I'm looking for plastic storage bins, around the size of 24"X15"X18". 
Note, actual size is not important, just around those dimensions 
approximately.

However, once you start looking into these, the prices seem counter to 
buying a bunch.  I was thinking of buying maybe 20 or 40 of these, but 
most would mean hundreds (or thousands) of dollars. In fact, Uline starts 
ONE of these containers (a little bit bigger than I need) for over $400 A 
PIECE! 

https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers 

Many of Amazon seem to be over $30 a piece.  I didn't want to spend that 
much on these.

Does anyone know of a good reasonable alternative?  Is there maybe a place 
that sells them as surplus or something?

Thanks.

I can't use cardboard, I am trying to keep out mice and moisture (but it 
doesn't need to be airtight if the price is right).  I would prefer 
something stackable, but if not, I can make shelves. Again, exact size 
isn't important, but big enough to hold at least 5 binders would be a good 
start.

This is for storage of shop items and such.

Thanks.

Mule

"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational 
being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph 
Waldo Emerson 
-Who is John Galt?
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From maynerdfamily at msn.com  Mon Apr 27 12:36:51 2020
From: maynerdfamily at msn.com (Brian and Wendy Warrick)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 18:36:51 +0000
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <MW2PR07MB3978356FB249124CC950611ABBAF0@MW2PR07MB3978.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>

Eric,

I think the ones you linked to are made for trucking stuff around the country. Probably super heavy duty, more than you are looking for.

Try this section instead.

https://www.uline.com/Grp_289/Totes-Plastic-Storage-Boxes

Totes / Plastic Storage Boxes - Uline<https://www.uline.com/Grp_289/Totes-Plastic-Storage-Boxes>
Uline stocks a wide selection of plastic storage bins, storage containers and storage totes. Order by 6 pm for same day shipping. Huge Catalog! Over 37,500 products in stock. 11 locations across USA, Canada and Mexico for fast delivery of storage bins.
www.uline.com

Brian Warrick
Nampa, ID
________________________________
From: Shop-talk <shop-talk-bounces at autox.team.net> on behalf of eric--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2020 12:12 PM
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins

Hello all,

My next question is about bulk'ish plastic storage bins.

I'm looking for plastic storage bins, around the size of 24"X15"X18".  Note, actual size is not important, just around those dimensions approximately.

However, once you start looking into these, the prices seem counter to buying a bunch.  I was thinking of buying maybe 20 or 40 of these, but most would mean hundreds (or thousands) of dollars. In fact, Uline starts ONE of these containers (a little bit bigger than I need) for over $400 A PIECE!

https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers

Many of Amazon seem to be over $30 a piece.  I didn't want to spend that much on these.

Does anyone know of a good reasonable alternative?  Is there maybe a place that sells them as surplus or something?

Thanks.

I can't use cardboard, I am trying to keep out mice and moisture (but it doesn't need to be airtight if the price is right).  I would prefer something stackable, but if not, I can make shelves. Again, exact size isn't important, but big enough to hold at least 5 binders would be a good start.

This is for storage of shop items and such.

Thanks.

Mule

"Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph Waldo Emerson
-Who is John Galt?
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From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 12:55:52 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 13:55:52 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YBzjdRmCjGc22SHP-TU_dw9m8Y7cv_pewUicYqX+OPBjg@mail.gmail.com>

I have been buying Akro Mils totes.  Normally they run about $18 each, but
you can occasionally find them on sale for as low as $13 each.  I have only
broken 1 (dropped on a concrete floor with almost 90lbs of tools in it),
but other than that they have been great.  They come in a variety of sizes
and colors if that is important to you.  I usually just buy whatever color
is cheapest.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000189CSC/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_sNYPEb26KYSX6

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 1:50 PM eric--- via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> My next question is about bulk'ish plastic storage bins.
>
> I'm looking for plastic storage bins, around the size of 24"X15"X18".
> Note, actual size is not important, just around those dimensions
> approximately.
>
> However, once you start looking into these, the prices seem counter to
> buying a bunch.  I was thinking of buying maybe 20 or 40 of these, but most
> would mean hundreds (or thousands) of dollars. In fact, Uline starts ONE of
> these containers (a little bit bigger than I need) for over $400 A PIECE!
>
> *https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers*
> <https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers>
>
> Many of Amazon seem to be over $30 a piece.  I didn't want to spend that
> much on these.
>
> Does anyone know of a good reasonable alternative?  Is there maybe a place
> that sells them as surplus or something?
>
> Thanks.
>
> I can't use cardboard, I am trying to keep out mice and moisture (but it
> doesn't need to be airtight if the price is right).  I would prefer
> something stackable, but if not, I can make shelves. Again, exact size
> isn't important, but big enough to hold at least 5 binders would be a good
> start.
>
> This is for storage of shop items and such.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mule
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
>

-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
=================================
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Mon Apr 27 13:09:02 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:09:02 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <860242C2-5875-4DA0-8C1C-76AB6B3BB62C@groupwbench.org>



> On Apr 27, 2020, at 2:12 PM, eric--- via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> Hello all, 
> 
> 
> I can't use cardboard, I am trying to keep out mice and moisture (but it doesn't need to be airtight if the price is right).  I would prefer something stackable, but if not, I can make shelves. Again, exact size isn't important, but big enough to hold at least 5 binders would be a good start. 
> 
> This is for storage of shop items and such. 
> 

I have a garage full, and a work storage rack full, of Sterlite bins. A million sizes and available everywhere -Target, Amazon, big box, Staples...

jim

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From miq at bigllama.com  Mon Apr 27 13:26:30 2020
From: miq at bigllama.com (Miq Millman)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:26:30 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
Message-ID: <CALUbS3ERK7gXC1TEexRCxQTx4SvWB0gSY2nedtbtihGXxr4tPQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have 16 feet wide X 10 feet tall shelves in the garage built to hold
these:
https://www.target.com/p/sterilite-18-gal-storage-tote-brown/-/A-14757115

$6 each at Target.

The shelves are made from 2x4 bolted to the wall studs horizontally (4"
side to the wall) , then a ladder of 2x4's for the front (2" side to the
front, vertical post every 5 feet), and 4x8 sheets of plywood (ripped full
length in thirds to 16" deep).  Been in use for almost 20 years, with me
climbing on them to get to the top shelves.  Probably have 3000 lbs of
"precious stuff" on the wall (mostly car parts, but also house holiday
decorations, camping etc.)

The bins stick out about 10 inches when put in longitudinally, so I only do
that orientation for light stuff.  The distance between shelves is such
that the lids rest against the rear 2x4.


--
__
Miq Millman   miq at bigllama.com
Tualatin, OR  Big Llama Productions


On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 11:12 AM eric--- via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> My next question is about bulk'ish plastic storage bins.
>
> I'm looking for plastic storage bins, around the size of 24"X15"X18".
> Note, actual size is not important, just around those dimensions
> approximately.
>
> However, once you start looking into these, the prices seem counter to
> buying a bunch.  I was thinking of buying maybe 20 or 40 of these, but most
> would mean hundreds (or thousands) of dollars. In fact, Uline starts ONE of
> these containers (a little bit bigger than I need) for over $400 A PIECE!
>
> *https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers*
> <https://www.uline.com/BL_8213/Plastic-Bulk-Containers>
>
> Many of Amazon seem to be over $30 a piece.  I didn't want to spend that
> much on these.
>
> Does anyone know of a good reasonable alternative?  Is there maybe a place
> that sells them as surplus or something?
>
> Thanks.
>
> I can't use cardboard, I am trying to keep out mice and moisture (but it
> doesn't need to be airtight if the price is right).  I would prefer
> something stackable, but if not, I can make shelves. Again, exact size
> isn't important, but big enough to hold at least 5 binders would be a good
> start.
>
> This is for storage of shop items and such.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mule
>
> "Be as beneficent as the sun or the sea, but if your rights as a rational
> being are trenched on, die on the first inch of your territory." Ralph
> Waldo Emerson
> -Who is John Galt?_______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/miq at bigllama.com
>
>
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From jem at milleredp.com  Mon Apr 27 13:40:51 2020
From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 12:40:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <860242C2-5875-4DA0-8C1C-76AB6B3BB62C@groupwbench.org>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
 <860242C2-5875-4DA0-8C1C-76AB6B3BB62C@groupwbench.org>
Message-ID: <280ed03d-f014-566f-1818-bd8dccc2b85c@milleredp.com>

> I have a garage full, and a work storage rack full, of Sterlite bins. A 
> million sizes and available everywhere -Target, Amazon, big box, Staples...

True, but they're not that durable, and if you leave one out in the sun 
for a couple weeks it fractures like thousand-year-old pottery.

I have a bunch of them too, but have to turn them over about as quickly 
as the mulch in the front yard.

John.

From jdinnis at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 13:45:18 2020
From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 14:45:18 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <280ed03d-f014-566f-1818-bd8dccc2b85c@milleredp.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
 <860242C2-5875-4DA0-8C1C-76AB6B3BB62C@groupwbench.org>
 <280ed03d-f014-566f-1818-bd8dccc2b85c@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CANuE7YBjZB=t0Y37kxNpn7AXN+5q_90i_uTa41oXzRvJX6-8Bw@mail.gmail.com>

This is my experience with sterlite bins as well.  I wish I could still get
the smaller rubberized bins, I have a bunch of these that are more than 20
years old and holding up great.  The Sterlite ones I bought about 5 years
ago are all starting to crack.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 2:41 PM John Miller via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> > I have a garage full, and a work storage rack full, of Sterlite bins. A
> > million sizes and available everywhere -Target, Amazon, big box,
> Staples...
>
> True, but they're not that durable, and if you leave one out in the sun
> for a couple weeks it fractures like thousand-year-old pottery.
>
> I have a bunch of them too, but have to turn them over about as quickly
> as the mulch in the front yard.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com
>
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=================================
= Never offend people with style when you   =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown  =
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From strovato at optonline.net  Mon Apr 27 13:55:06 2020
From: strovato at optonline.net (Steven Trovato)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:55:06 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YBzjdRmCjGc22SHP-TU_dw9m8Y7cv_pewUicYqX+OPBjg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
 <CANuE7YBzjdRmCjGc22SHP-TU_dw9m8Y7cv_pewUicYqX+OPBjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B3.47.13587.3A837AE5@mta1.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>

I have a bunch of these Akro Mils totes:

<https://www.walmart.com/ip/seort/22936496>https://www.walmart.com/ip/seort/22936496 


I used to get them with clear lids, but lately I 
don't see them offered that way.  I really don't 
care that much about the lid color.  The clear 
box is nice so I can see what is inside.  The 
gray one that John posted looks a bit heavier duty, though.

-Steve T.

At 02:55 PM 4/27/2020, John Innis via Shop-talk wrote:
>I have been buying Akro Mils totes.?  Normally 
>they run about $18 each, but you can 
>occasionally find them on sale for as low as $13 
>each.?  I have only broken 1 (dropped on a 
>concrete floor with almost 90lbs of tools in 
>it), but other than that they have been 
>great.?  They come in a variety of sizes and 
>colors if that is important to you.?  I usually 
>just buy whatever color is cheapest.


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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From scott.hall.personal at gmail.com  Mon Apr 27 14:28:42 2020
From: scott.hall.personal at gmail.com (Scott Hall)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 15:28:42 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <280ed03d-f014-566f-1818-bd8dccc2b85c@milleredp.com>
References: <OF69B6E8EF.0006BD92-ON85258557.0062E61A-85258557.0063FA6E@mail.megageek.com>
 <860242C2-5875-4DA0-8C1C-76AB6B3BB62C@groupwbench.org>
 <280ed03d-f014-566f-1818-bd8dccc2b85c@milleredp.com>
Message-ID: <CAK73_u715zLhmfeotF9BPsc17S3+mvLTE0zwqNOUYvEWn2QQmQ@mail.gmail.com>

I'm glad someone else noticed this. I left one out in the sun on the deck.
There was a hail storm. My car was outside, my truck, some plastic plant
pots and that Sterlite container. The car and truck were fine--not a ding.
The Sterlite container and one of the pots just...*exploded*. I'm still
finding particles of the Sterlite under the deck. Dangest thing I've ever
seen.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 2:41 PM John Miller via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> > I have a garage full, and a work storage rack full, of Sterlite bins. A
> > million sizes and available everywhere -Target, Amazon, big box,
> Staples...
>
> True, but they're not that durable, and if you leave one out in the sun
> for a couple weeks it fractures like thousand-year-old pottery.
>
> I have a bunch of them too, but have to turn them over about as quickly
> as the mulch in the front yard.
>
> John.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/scott.hall.personal at gmail.com
>
>
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From battmain at yahoo.com  Mon Apr 27 16:31:29 2020
From: battmain at yahoo.com (Battmain)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 22:31:29 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] OT flash drives
In-Reply-To: <CANuE7YB24wxMdhW9jNtBAdwXz+B=kLr3O5LpBv=nmRH=5eQWuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CH2PR04MB65051F40CA881A612B227AA3B4FD0@CH2PR04MB6505.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAOtbU9UHuwa5JmLsq5Q0ee6xPC7P5FLP+Lz95LL6+=AgbaNp8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANuE7YB24wxMdhW9jNtBAdwXz+B=kLr3O5LpBv=nmRH=5eQWuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1323529535.1230494.1588026689628@mail.yahoo.com>

 I am also using a NAS. I got hit some time ago by a botnet when I was playing with the ftp port forwarding to use with the security cams. Somehow they found the port and I was getting hit with 6 logins attempts per second. It was pretty interesting to watch while I let it go, but I got alerted pretty much immediately and the IPs were blocked almost immediately too. IPs were from all over the world per the lookup tool.? ?I have added some more routers and adding some enterprise level firewalls now. I also understand I am not as smart as some of the people out there, but it sure keeps the brain actively learning and I am loving my NAS.??
As for the drives, I usually google review on the brand/size first and determine if the losses are worth the risk.? ?Just like physical drives, I have found over the years that true? capacity is occasionally overstated. As someone mentioned, the cheaper drives don't seem to last as long.? ? I also make it spend a few hours/days doing a real format instead of a quick format.? ?Check out the NAS route and see if it might work for you. Many of them use? hot swappable ports and you can do any RAID combination you wish.? Also automated backups and file syncing is well worth the setup and reading time.??
    On Monday, March 16, 2020, 11:13:36 PM EST, John Innis via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:  
 
 I have had mixed results with these.? Actually pretty much the same results I see with flash-based drives.? The cheap ones seem to fail often, where the good ones seem to last forever.? Forever meaning at least a few years.? I have had a number of mechanical drives fail while sitting on the shelf for years at a time.? Flash seems less susceptible to the bit rot issue.? Generally speaking, you want your backups running on drives that are hooked up and updating.? Preferably in a RAID arrangement that provides some level of redundancy.? If you don't want to go the RAID route, rotate drives so your backups are redundant.? 
A note on cloud based services.? They are generally very good at what they do, but there are different risk when using the cloud.? For example this week an un-patched bug was announced in windows 10 that could have security implications for some cloud based services.? There is a risk that hackers could get in and steal your data or ransom it.? Cloud is great for off site backup in the event of fire or other local disaster, and for getting data to other locations, but I would not trust is as my only source of backups.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:00 PM Doug Braun via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

A USB portable hard drive (the real, spinning kind) should be much more reliable than a run-of-the-mill USB flash drive, as long as you don't handle it roughly.
Doug
On Thu, Mar 12, 2020, 8:26 AM Tim . via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

Sending this inquiry to you all since I know there are more than a few IT guys in this group.....
I bought three 512GB flash drives for archiving here at work. One locked up in each of our offices and one for me to add to files as necessary as files are amended. They have approximately 450GB on them.
One of the three failed as soon as I finished filling it. I bought a different brand and made a replacement copy for the safe in our Madison office. A second, the same brand as the first one that failed is locked up in our MKE office and will also be replaced now because the third one (the one that has amended archived files) is also failing. I am having a hard time retrieving the amended files before this drive takes a final crap on me. It took over 15 hours to pull one 87MB file from the dying drive. I can't even attempt to pull more than one file at a time. Not that this should matter, but the files are mixed word, pdf, saved outlook emails and miscellaneous audio or video files and possibly other items.?
What I am wondering/hoping is that someone might know of a solution to this nearly impossible retrieval process. Or am I just screwed here??
Next year we will be storing everything in the cloud so I won't have to deal with this PITA process.?
Thankstim_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/doug at dougbraun.com


_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com




-- 
=================================
= Never offend people with style when you?? =
= can offend with substance --- Sam Brown? =
=================================_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From bk13 at earthlink.net  Mon Apr 27 20:55:04 2020
From: bk13 at earthlink.net (Brian Kemp)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 19:55:04 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
Message-ID: <349359594.13616.1588042504634@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobkegel at comcast.net  Mon Apr 27 21:08:51 2020
From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 20:08:51 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Reasonably priced storage bins
In-Reply-To: <349359594.13616.1588042504634@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <349359594.13616.1588042504634@wamui-cheeto.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.95.1588043334.2961.shop-talk@autox.team.net>

?If you are a Costco member??

If you?re not,  Home Depot has them for $8.98.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/HDX-27-Gal-Tough-Storage-Bin-in-Black-HDX27GONLINE-5/205978361

Bob K

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From mark at bradakis.com  Mon Apr 27 22:57:15 2020
From: mark at bradakis.com (Mark J Bradakis)
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2020 22:57:15 -0600
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick note on list archives
Message-ID: <f14e2918-59e5-5586-3cfe-5a73a0b09113@bradakis.com>

For a while now the search function in the mharc archives has been 
broken.? It has been ignoring any emails added in the last few years.? 
I'm working on that, have it mostly fixed, getting ancient perl scripts 
and such to work with current versions of software can be troublesome. 
 ?? Back in my sys admin days when I was doing perl on a daily basis, 
stuff like this:

$uri =~ s/%%/\34/g;
$uri =~ s/%{?([a-z]+)}?/$param{$1}/g;
$uri =~ s/\34/%/g;

was easy to read, like See Spot.? See Spot run.? Run, Spot, run! 
Nowadays, not so much.

Anyway, when using http://autox.team.net/archive the search function 
should now return more recent results.

mjb.


From dave1massey at cs.com  Tue Apr 28 05:22:24 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2020 11:22:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick note on list archives
In-Reply-To: <f14e2918-59e5-5586-3cfe-5a73a0b09113@bradakis.com>
References: <f14e2918-59e5-5586-3cfe-5a73a0b09113@bradakis.com>
Message-ID: <1663890758.969456.1588072944883@mail.yahoo.com>

 Good luck with that.? That looks more like what one would find on the wall in the pyramid.
What's wrong with:
while (car == in_garage){??? fix car;}
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark J Bradakis via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
Sent: Mon, Apr 27, 2020 11:57 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Quick note on list archives

For a while now the search function in the mharc archives has been 
broken.? It has been ignoring any emails added in the last few years.? 
I'm working on that, have it mostly fixed, getting ancient perl scripts 
and such to work with current versions of software can be troublesome. 
 ?? Back in my sys admin days when I was doing perl on a daily basis, 
stuff like this:

$uri =~ s/%%/\34/g;
$uri =~ s/%{?([a-z]+)}?/$param{$1}/g;
$uri =~ s/\34/%/g;

was easy to read, like See Spot.? See Spot run.? Run, Spot, run! 
Nowadays, not so much.

Anyway, when using http://autox.team.net/archive the search function 
should now return more recent results.

mjb.

_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From peterwmurray at gmail.com  Wed Apr 29 15:02:17 2020
From: peterwmurray at gmail.com (Peter Murray)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:02:17 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
Message-ID: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>

This struck me as a cool way to document projects, as well as share ideas
and methodology. How many of you produce videos from projects you do in
YOUR shop?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDMbhmna2iI

I do have video from various projects - I suppose I should fire up iMovie
and make them watchable.

But really - I'm mostly jealous of that really nice shop he has, though it
is clearly too small (though much larger than what I have now).

-Peter
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From jamesf at groupwbench.org  Wed Apr 29 15:54:05 2020
From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin)
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2020 17:54:05 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C09B1607-5ED5-4B76-82BF-B7AC3549EE83@groupwbench.org>



> On Apr 29, 2020, at 5:02 PM, Peter Murray via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> This struck me as a cool way to document projects, as well as share ideas and methodology.

I really enjoyed that. Thanks!

jim


From nick at landform.co.uk  Thu Apr 30 01:46:43 2020
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:46:43 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
In-Reply-To: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27e478d8-1b70-f950-ef5e-86acf34845ce@landform.co.uk>

Thanks,

That is 19 minutes well spent. What makes it particularly relevant for 
me is that I've got a tank of similar dimensions that has been kicking 
round the field since the 90's and I've just started clearing ground to 
install it to catch rainwater from a tractor shed. Not that we 
particularly need water in the UK, but it's been in the way for so long 
that it had better start earning its keep.

So many nice points in there, the use of the ladder as a lever was 
brilliant. The only difference I'll make is to put it on a concrete slab 
rather than plywood. The thought of trying to replace the plywood when 
the tank is full is not appealing...

2.7m views. Quite a tribute to the quality of the presentation.

Nick Brearley


On 29/04/2020 22:02, Peter Murray via Shop-talk wrote:
> This struck me as a cool way to document projects, as well as share 
> ideas and methodology. How many of you produce videos from projects 
> you do in YOUR shop?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDMbhmna2iI
>
> I do have video from various projects - I suppose I should fire up 
> iMovie and make them watchable.
>
> But really - I'm mostly jealous of that really nice shop he has, 
> though it is clearly too small (though much larger than what I have now).
>
> -Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nick at landform.co.uk
>
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From fishplate at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 05:49:56 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 07:49:56 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
In-Reply-To: <27e478d8-1b70-f950-ef5e-86acf34845ce@landform.co.uk>
References: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27e478d8-1b70-f950-ef5e-86acf34845ce@landform.co.uk>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7CPvESRT_uFEkoEvbP6udRimfZzbb1xfPQcu1mUycy=WeA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 AM nick brearley via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

> That is 19 minutes well spent.
>

Pfft.  19 minutes is only the beginning.  If Lawn Chair 2 isn't the equal
of any Hollywood blockbuster, I'll eat this computer.
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From marka at maracing.com  Thu Apr 30 07:55:12 2020
From: marka at maracing.com (Mark Andy)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 09:55:12 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPvESRT_uFEkoEvbP6udRimfZzbb1xfPQcu1mUycy=WeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27e478d8-1b70-f950-ef5e-86acf34845ce@landform.co.uk>
 <CAO8Q7CPvESRT_uFEkoEvbP6udRimfZzbb1xfPQcu1mUycy=WeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAoSWGOKEdP7sDCSi2JeqtYe1hMjVPHyhNB+UCLHQdB8ysBbvQ@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

Man, that guy does NOT lack for cool tools... :)

Mark

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 7:50 AM Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 AM nick brearley via Shop-talk <
> shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
>
>> That is 19 minutes well spent.
>>
>
> Pfft.  19 minutes is only the beginning.  If Lawn Chair 2 isn't the equal
> of any Hollywood blockbuster, I'll eat this computer.
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk
> http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:
> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/marka at maracing.com
>
>
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From nick at landform.co.uk  Thu Apr 30 10:03:58 2020
From: nick at landform.co.uk (nick brearley)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:03:58 +0100
Subject: [Shop-talk] Rainwater storage/runoff mitigation - shop video
In-Reply-To: <CAO8Q7CPvESRT_uFEkoEvbP6udRimfZzbb1xfPQcu1mUycy=WeA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJ8HLP-Q9gqONV_69_DrG0wHTAH4u11Mb06+bqV1hzQOdj+QoA@mail.gmail.com>
 <27e478d8-1b70-f950-ef5e-86acf34845ce@landform.co.uk>
 <CAO8Q7CPvESRT_uFEkoEvbP6udRimfZzbb1xfPQcu1mUycy=WeA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <544533fd-6e68-493f-cd84-4c6c66e3c4cf@landform.co.uk>

Hmm, now was that the kindest suggestion to make? Here I was, all 
prepared for an afternoon winching down trees, and then Lawn Chair 2 
comes into view. And then I see there's The making of Lawn Chair 2...

Thanks all the same.


On 30/04/2020 12:49, Jeff Scarbrough via Shop-talk wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 3:48 AM nick brearley via Shop-talk 
> <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>
>     That is 19 minutes well spent.
>
>
> Pfft.? 19 minutes is only the beginning.? If Lawn Chair 2 isn't the 
> equal of any Hollywood blockbuster, I'll eat this computer.
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk  http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/nick at landform.co.uk
>
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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 14:28:43 2020
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 16:28:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
Message-ID: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>

I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.  There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.  Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.  My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) and a pair of latching relays.  The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.  So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.  Up or down a second time to turn off either light.  Hopefully, that makes sense.

Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?

Thanks,
Jim

From darrellw360 at mac.com  Thu Apr 30 15:01:41 2020
From: darrellw360 at mac.com (Darrell Walker)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 14:01:41 -0700
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9912A8ED-D9EA-4F9F-899D-0A5AEFA6E5A0@mac.com>


This looks like it might be what you want:

https://www.ebay.com/i/282960969172?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=282960969172&targetid=883510870202&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9061081&poi=&campaignid=9250237609&mkgroupid=93913847756&rlsatarget=pla-883510870202&abcId=1145977&merchantid=101712989&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuMrQz4WR6QIVjh6tBh0C2gLvEAQYAyABEgIP1_D_BwE <https://www.ebay.com/i/282960969172?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=282960969172&targetid=883510870202&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9061081&poi=&campaignid=9250237609&mkgroupid=93913847756&rlsatarget=pla-883510870202&abcId=1145977&merchantid=101712989&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuMrQz4WR6QIVjh6tBh0C2gLvEAQYAyABEgIP1_D_BwE>

-Darrell

> On Apr 30, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jim Stone via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:
> 
> I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.  There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.  Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.  My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) and a pair of latching relays.  The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.  So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.  Up or down a second time to turn off either light.  Hopefully, that makes sense.
> 
> Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?
> 
> Thanks,
> Jim
> _______________________________________________
> 
> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
> 
> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
> 

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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 15:19:48 2020
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 17:19:48 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <9912A8ED-D9EA-4F9F-899D-0A5AEFA6E5A0@mac.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
 <9912A8ED-D9EA-4F9F-899D-0A5AEFA6E5A0@mac.com>
Message-ID: <82107B54-2313-4E1C-B422-CB58B58E8E27@gmail.com>

It sure does!  I figured such a thing had to exist somewhere, but never knew what to call it.  Now I know I need a "Flip-Flop Bistable Self-locking Trigger Switch Board?.  Thanks!

But, I don?t know; $2.75 delivered from China seems like an awful lot of money!  :)

> On Apr 30, 2020, at 5:01 PM, Darrell Walker <darrellw360 at mac.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> This looks like it might be what you want:
> 
> https://www.ebay.com/i/282960969172?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=282960969172&targetid=883510870202&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9061081&poi=&campaignid=9250237609&mkgroupid=93913847756&rlsatarget=pla-883510870202&abcId=1145977&merchantid=101712989&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuMrQz4WR6QIVjh6tBh0C2gLvEAQYAyABEgIP1_D_BwE <https://www.ebay.com/i/282960969172?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=282960969172&targetid=883510870202&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9061081&poi=&campaignid=9250237609&mkgroupid=93913847756&rlsatarget=pla-883510870202&abcId=1145977&merchantid=101712989&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIuMrQz4WR6QIVjh6tBh0C2gLvEAQYAyABEgIP1_D_BwE>
> 
> -Darrell
> 
>> On Apr 30, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Jim Stone via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:shop-talk at autox.team.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.  There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.  Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.  My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8 <https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8>) and a pair of latching relays.  The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.  So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.  Up or down a second time to turn off either light.  Hopefully, that makes sense.
>> 
>> Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net <mailto:Shop-talk at autox.team.net>
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/darrellw360 at mac.com
>> 
> 

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From jniolon at att.net  Thu Apr 30 15:39:02 2020
From: jniolon at att.net (john niolon)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 16:39:02 -0500
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E9D09C9902064A4C88BFAC5CFC9F1C7A@Johnsdesktop>

Hi Jim   I did something similar with a electrically operated hood on my 
truck project...  double pole double throw switch...   power feeds on center 
contacts.  Up relay is fed from upper  two contacts when switch is moved up 
and the  down is fed from lower two contacts when the switch is down. 
Center position of switch is off on both.   The upper and lower contacts 
would feed standard auto relays   BUT you can't have both on at the same 
time with this setup.,,.,.

these guys can set you up with pretty stuff and even label them the way you 
want... I used them in my truck for doors/windows/hood actuators 
https://rockerswitchpros.com/

john

-----Original Message----- 
From: Jim Stone via Shop-talk
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2020 3:28 PM
To: Shop Talk
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights

I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and 
have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.  There was a 
period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and 
I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more 
attractive solution.  Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle 
switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.  My hope is to put 
in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can 
find something more attractive: 
https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) 
and a pair of latching relays.  The tricky part is that I?d need the relays 
to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.  So, up once 
to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.  Up or 
down a second time to turn off either light.  Hopefully, that makes sense.

Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple circuit 
that would make a standard relay work as described?

Thanks,
Jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation  $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk 
http://autox.team.net/archive

Unsubscribe/Manage: 
http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jniolon at att.net


From dave1massey at cs.com  Thu Apr 30 15:55:30 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 21:55:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1580372666.72777.1588283730731@mail.yahoo.com>

 What you need is what is called an alternate action relay.? This is a bi-stable relay that will change from OFF to ON or ON to OFF each time the coil is energized.? Like a pull chain light switch.? I remember seeing such a device with an indexing cam that maintained the relay in the state which ever was activated.? A quick look on the internet turned up nothing like that but there are a couple similar-acting relays that use electronics instead.
Here are a couple that work on 12 volts:
https://czh-labs.com/panel-mount-momentary-switch-pulse-signal-control-latching-spdt-relay-module12v-p1068.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6LW6iY-R6QIVUtbACh3tsgrTEAQYDyABEgLjSPD_BwEor https://tinyurl.com/yd3ylfoj
And 
http://innovativecontrolsinc.com/documents.htmlClick on 3050510 Alternate Action Relay module
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Stone via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thu, Apr 30, 2020 3:28 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights

I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.? There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.? Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.? My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) and a pair of latching relays.? The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.? So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.? Up or down a second time to turn off either light.? Hopefully, that makes sense.

Does anyone know if such a relay exists?? If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?

Thanks,
Jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From dave1massey at cs.com  Thu Apr 30 15:55:30 2020
From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 21:55:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1580372666.72777.1588283730731@mail.yahoo.com>

 What you need is what is called an alternate action relay.? This is a bi-stable relay that will change from OFF to ON or ON to OFF each time the coil is energized.? Like a pull chain light switch.? I remember seeing such a device with an indexing cam that maintained the relay in the state which ever was activated.? A quick look on the internet turned up nothing like that but there are a couple similar-acting relays that use electronics instead.
Here are a couple that work on 12 volts:
https://czh-labs.com/panel-mount-momentary-switch-pulse-signal-control-latching-spdt-relay-module12v-p1068.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6LW6iY-R6QIVUtbACh3tsgrTEAQYDyABEgLjSPD_BwEor https://tinyurl.com/yd3ylfoj
And 
http://innovativecontrolsinc.com/documents.htmlClick on 3050510 Alternate Action Relay module
 
Dave 

 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Stone via Shop-talk <shop-talk at autox.team.net>
To: Shop Talk <shop-talk at Autox.Team.Net>
Sent: Thu, Apr 30, 2020 3:28 pm
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights

I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.? There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.? Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.? My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) and a pair of latching relays.? The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.? So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.? Up or down a second time to turn off either light.? Hopefully, that makes sense.

Does anyone know if such a relay exists?? If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?

Thanks,
Jim
_______________________________________________

Shop-talk at autox.team.net
Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation? $12.96
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive

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From 1789alpine at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 17:12:35 2020
From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 19:12:35 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <c95c2b1f-4bda-451b-1040-ee8ac90766b0@snet.net>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
 <c95c2b1f-4bda-451b-1040-ee8ac90766b0@snet.net>
Message-ID: <2F700DE2-F39B-4223-8A64-4244F729ABB6@gmail.com>

Thanks guys. That is exactly the information I needed. I always assumed that what I wanted existed, but never knew the terminology to look for it!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 30, 2020, at 6:43 PM, John Mitchell <jmitch at snet.net> wrote:
> 
> Can you post a picture of the ugly period correct switch, just for giggles?   Thanks
> 
>> On 4/30/2020 4:28 PM, Jim Stone via Shop-talk wrote:
>> I have long wanted to install 1 fog and 1 driving light on my Alpine, and have them wired so that I can light either one or both of them.  There was a period 4-position rotary switch for doing this (off - on1 - on2 - on1&2) and I have one, but it is ugly as sin and I?d like to come up with a more attractive solution.  Ideally, I would like to convert an unnecessary toggle switch space on the dash to a fog/driving light switch.  My hope is to put in a DPDT momentary switch (something like this one, but hopefully I can find something more attractive: https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Handle-Momentary-Toggle-Switch/dp/B000LFVFA8) and a pair of latching relays.  The tricky part is that I?d need the relays to latch on with the first pulse and turn off with the second.  So, up once to turn on the fog light, down once to turn on the driving light.  Up or down a second time to turn off either light.  Hopefully, that makes sense.
>> 
>> Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Jim
>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>> Shop-talk at autox.team.net
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation  $12.96
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive
>> 
>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jmitch at snet.net
>> 
> 

From fishplate at gmail.com  Thu Apr 30 18:55:43 2020
From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 20:55:43 -0400
Subject: [Shop-talk] Fog and Driving Lights
In-Reply-To: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
References: <0DB802A9-83F6-4F66-835F-C256F88F5637@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO8Q7COiPNZBbLhiWtWbW_z36qQttrk4-aEZWuJGyv+HDe0D4A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 5:47 PM Jim Stone via Shop-talk <
shop-talk at autox.team.net> wrote:

>
> Does anyone know if such a relay exists?  If not, is there a simple
> circuit that would make a standard relay work as described?
>

 If I recall correctly, a pair of old VW headlight dimming relays would be
a period-correct solution.  Grounding the relay by pulling on the turn
signal lever would flip-flop the relay between high beam and low beam.  Or,
in your case, on or off.  The old relays had to have the headlights on to
power them, you would need to figure out how to remind yourself to turn the
lights off or use a relay on the ignition wire to control the power.

Or, use one of them high-falutin' electronic gadgets...
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