From 1789alpine at gmail.com Sun Dec 11 13:39:23 2022 From: 1789alpine at gmail.com (Jim Stone) Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2022 15:39:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Electric driveway gates Message-ID: <2D248D97-6BE7-44D6-B54C-7B8D0345C328@gmail.com> I would like to put an electric gate on our driveway to make it easier for my wife. The yard is currently fenced in with stockade fence, which will be replaced with a combination of deer fence (lots of those around!) and 6? vertical deck boards along the road. The current opening is 12 feet, with two 6?x6' (roughly) gates, made using an off the shelf frame kit (https://smile.amazon.com/Adjust-Gate-Steel-Building-openings/dp/B000AMP96S/ref=sr_1_55?crid=1QMB822P1HGKW&keywords=driveway+gates&qid=1670789911&sprefix=driveway+gates%2Caps%2C73&sr=8-55 ), pressure treated lumber and stockade fence. They have worked just fine for about 5 years, but are stressing the hinges. So I will need something sturdier for the new gates, which will need to be 6" wider (for a 13? opening). They will also likely be heavier, as.my wife would like the gate to match the planned fence, so vertical 6? deck boards there, too. The gate posts are 6?x6" pressure treated lumber set in concrete, so they should be more than up to the task. The driveway hasn?t been paved yet, so getting current out to the openers shouldn't be a problem. But, before I get too deep into this project I wanted to poll the group and see if anyone has recommendations on openers and gate construction. Thanks, Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eric at megageek.com Mon Dec 12 08:15:50 2022 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:15:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Message-ID: I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jamesf at groupwbench.org Mon Dec 12 09:54:09 2022 From: jamesf at groupwbench.org (Jim Franklin) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:54:09 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can't see why it would harm anything. There is no oil pump that needs to turn, there is no load on the bearings so any mismatch in output shaft speed relative to input shaft speed should not affect them. I think you could go thousands of miles, given a long enough hill, as long as your foot wasn't on the clutch the whole time (which would wear out the throwout bearing if the engine was running). jim > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:15 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jamesf at groupwbench.org > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 10:06:16 2022 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:06:16 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It depends. 1. Will it get sufficient splash lubrication? 2. Will you burn out your brakes holding a coasting car back instead of letting the engine do the braking? I've always heard that at best, it really doesn't help much. -- Jeff On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 wrote: > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patintexas at icloud.com Mon Dec 12 10:28:10 2022 From: patintexas at icloud.com (Pat Horne) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 11:28:10 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> In general, I don?t see any problem. However I recall something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & seized. Can?t say for sure that really happened or not. Peace, Pat Pat Horne We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: ?I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Mon Dec 12 10:32:09 2022 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 09:32:09 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <22377150-73e6-5fac-3437-c69da730201c@milleredp.com> > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch > while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, > are you doing any damage? Ah, Mexican Overdrive as it used to be called. You said 'release the clutch' so that's assuming it's a manual transmission. You're pretty safe, most traditional manuals are splash-lubricated and will do fine. Maybe some DSG-type quasi-manuals maybe not so much. Automatics it's potentially a problem, it depends on which end of the transmission the hydraulic pump(s) that lubricate and cool things is/are driven from. The ZF 4HP18 was a notorious case, the hydraulics were driven off the output side. Perhaps what you need for this, but they routinely blew up a couple weeks after e.g. California smog tests where the engine was run at 2500RPM in neutral for a few minutes. John. From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Dec 12 10:46:50 2022 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:46:50 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric at megageek.com wrote: >I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > >If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long >hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > >I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Moose, As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm. Most manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub for the speed. The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the xmission. That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea. And I've been told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc. The reason being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile. I've done it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear. Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and took my foot off the gas. But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would have been in trouble. But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and release the clutch and coast into the light. One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. John >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: http://autox.team.net/morgan/ Bricklin: http://www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dirtbeard at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:16:12 2022 From: dirtbeard at gmail.com (old dirtbeard) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:16:12 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> Message-ID: I think it could depend upon the specific transmission. If the driven shaft is the lower shaft (in the oil bath) it should not be a problem. If the input shaft is the lower shaft (in the oil bath), then spinning the top shaft (the output shaft) for extended periods could cause things to run dry and seize. I believe a friend of mine was towing a 1972 Z28 after blowing an engine, and had the transmission seize-up as well. It was not a particularly good day for him, to say the least. best, doug On Mon, Dec 12, 2022 at 10:11 AM Pat Horne wrote: > In general, I don?t see any problem. However I recall something similar > decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that was > very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & > seized. Can?t say for sure that really happened or not. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > ?I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dirtbeard at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From arvidj999 at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:39:09 2022 From: arvidj999 at gmail.com (Arvid Jedlicka) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 12:39:09 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1791C546-48AA-4C13-A975-09537E5AEAF0@gmail.com> My thoughts ? The clutch is out. It was not stated but I will assume the engine is running. If the assumption is not correct then any thoughts that this whole process is a ?good thing? should not be entertained. Given that the clutch is out and the engine is running then the input shaft is turning. Given that the input shaft is turning then the counter-shaft is turning ? at least slowly. Given that the center-shaft is turning then the gears that float on the output shaft are turning and getting some lubrication picked up from the counter-shaft. Yes, they are turning at a different speed than the output shaft, but that is what those not engaged via the synchronizer\gear selector hub to the output shaft at any given time do for most of their lives anyway. Given that the output shaft is turning (the driveshaft has not been disconnected) then everything is turning, which is exactly whey they do when it is in gear and rolling. IMHO ? no harm to the transmission. By the same token, no anti-harm (i.e. no advantage\saving) to the transmission, but no harm. As mentioned, the brakes may want to file a (rational and reasonable) complaint, but the transmission would be fine with it ? but very likely be fine with it either way. > On Dec 12, 2022, at 11:28 AM, Pat Horne wrote: > > In general, I don?t see any problem. However I recall something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & seized. Can?t say for sure that really happened or not. > > Peace, > Pat > > Pat Horne > We support Habitat for Humanity > > > On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: > > ?I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose_______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/arvidj999 at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bjzwissler at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 11:40:23 2022 From: bjzwissler at gmail.com (Benjamin Zwissler) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 13:40:23 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years ago, that in Indiana "coasting" was illegal, as the car was considered out of control. I assumed that the reasoning was if your brakes failed you might not be able to get it back in gear and use engine braking. Seems a moot point these days as modern cars all have synchros and the brakes are much better than they used to be. I do know there's been some fatal hay-ride tractor accidents when the driver coasted, couldn't get the tractor back in gear and the tractor brakes were completely inadequate to stop the tractor and trailer. Ben On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 12:27 PM Jeff Scarbrough wrote: > It depends. > > 1. Will it get sufficient splash lubrication? > > 2. Will you burn out your brakes holding a coasting car back instead of > letting the engine do the braking? > > I've always heard that at best, it really doesn't help much. > > > -- Jeff > > On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 11:00 wrote: > >> I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real >> experts here. >> >> If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch >> while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you >> doing any damage? >> >> I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the >> clutch release. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Moose_______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk >> http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: >> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/bjzwissler at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Mon Dec 12 11:59:02 2022 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 10:59:02 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: <20221212185226.EF06DA0F58@autox.team.net> References: <20221212185226.EF06DA0F58@autox.team.net> Message-ID: On 12/12/2022 9:46 AM, John T. Blair wrote: > One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up > to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the > xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress > puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. That depends on the bearing and on the time involved. I've known people who put AUTOMATICS IN NEUTRAL at a stop. Never mind the time lag, never mind the shock-loading on the drivetrain getting back into gear... The modern start-stop crap...there's gonna be vast numbers of vehicles scrapped because ring gear wear. Not to mention they're just crap to drive that way. John. From dhlocker at protonmail.com Mon Dec 12 12:39:36 2022 From: dhlocker at protonmail.com (Donald H Locker) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 19:39:36 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: <20221212184527.9917BA113D@autox.team.net> References: <20221212184527.9917BA113D@autox.team.net> Message-ID: <899a5e7b-a572-1d4e-e5d1-fbd0dc06c933@protonmail.com> Holding in the clutch pedal while idling also puts unnecessary load on the thrust bearings. Donald. On 12/12/22 12:46, John T. Blair wrote: > At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric at megageek.com wrote: > >>I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. >> >>If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long >hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? >> >>I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. > > Moose, > > As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm. Most > manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub > for the speed. The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the > xmission. > > That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea. And I've been > told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc. The reason > being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile. I've done > it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear. > Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and > took my foot off the gas. But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would > have been in trouble. > > But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and > release the clutch and coast into the light. > > One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light > or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the > clutch. Keeping the clutch depress puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause > a premature failure. > > John > >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Shop-talk at autox.team.net >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Suggested annual donation $12.96 >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net > > https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=icon Virus-free. [www.avast.com](https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient&utm_term=link) #DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2 > > John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net > Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 > > 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) > 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III > 65 Rambler Classic > > Morgan: http://autox.team.net/morgan/ > Bricklin: [http://www.bricklin.org](http://www.bricklin.org/) > > If you can read this - Thank a teacher! > If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! > > From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: > e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." > In God We Trust > Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for > oneself; freedom from control or restriction -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Mon Dec 12 18:43:15 2022 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 20:43:15 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: <20221212185226.EF06DA0F58@autox.team.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 12, 2022, 17:20 John Miller wrote: > > > The modern start-stop crap...there's gonna be vast numbers of vehicles > scrapped because ring gear wear. > Auto start was developed in the 70s and 80s. If it led to premature scrapping, you'd think someone would have noticed by now. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jblair1948 at cox.net Mon Dec 12 19:29:40 2022 From: jblair1948 at cox.net (John T. Blair) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 21:29:40 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate Message-ID: At 10:15 AM 12/12/2022, eric at megageek.com wrote: >I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. > >If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long >hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? > >I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Moose, As long as you release the clutch, I can't see where you're doing any harm. Most manual Xmissions are splash lubericated so it's getting the proper amound of lub for the speed. The engine is getting it's required lub as it is NOT connected to the xmission. That said, especially going down hill, I don't think it's a good idea. And I've been told that in a lot of states it's illegal to coast in neutral to lights, etc. The reason being is you don't necessarily have "positive" control over the vechile. I've done it many times, and needed to set on the gas and forgot that it was out of gear. Luckily, as the rpms increased and the speed didn't I realized what was wrong and took my foot off the gas. But if I had really needed to stomp the gas, I would have been in trouble. But when I've slowed down conciderably, I do quite often put the car in neutral and release the clutch and coast into the light. One other point. Speaking of releasing the clutch, when you pull up to a traffic light or have to stop for any reason, you should put the xmission in neutral, let out the clutch. Keeping the clutch depress puts wear on the throwout bearing and cause a premature failure. John >_______________________________________________ > >Shop-talk at autox.team.net >Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >Suggested annual donation $12.96 >Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > >Unsubscribe/Manage: >http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jblair1948 at cox.net John T. Blair WA4OHZ email: jblair1948 at cox.net Va. Beach, Va Phone: (757) 495-8229 48 TR1800 48 #4 Midget 65 Morgan 4/4 Series V (B1106) 75 Bricklin SV1 (#0887) 77 Spitfire 71 Saab Sonett III 65 Rambler Classic Morgan: http://autox.team.net/morgan/ Bricklin: http://www.bricklin.org If you can read this - Thank a teacher! If you are reading it in English - Thank a Vet!! From Dennis Prager - The American Trilogy: e pluribus Unum, "from many, one." In God We Trust Liberty - the power of choosing, thinking, and acting for oneself; freedom from control or restriction -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JIBrooks at live.com Mon Dec 12 22:24:27 2022 From: JIBrooks at live.com (Jack Brooks) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 05:24:27 +0000 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check to see how it can be towed. My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat towed, as the tranny uses splash lubrication that does not work in neutral . I'm not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a problem, but I might consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, as this is a relatively short duration event. Jack From: Shop-talk On Behalf Of eric at megageek.com Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobkegel at comcast.net Mon Dec 12 23:24:00 2022 From: bobkegel at comcast.net (Bob Kegel) Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2022 22:24:00 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 4yhfp0iFvQGgR4yhopyFzp.1670912643.16f0a38a13334f452c28da84d85de216.MISSINGID@comcast.net Coasting is illegal here in WA, but only on a downgrade. RCW 46.61.630 Coasting prohibited. (1) The driver of any motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade shall not coast with the gears of such vehicle in neutral. (2) The driver of a commercial motor vehicle when traveling upon a down grade shall not coast with the clutch disengaged. [1965 ex.s. c 155 ? 74.] Now that the statute of limitations has run I can confess to coasting about 20 miles with the tranny in neutral and the gas gauge halfway between ?empty? and ?positively.? From: Benjamin Zwissler Sent: Monday, December 12, 2022 12:27 To: Jeff Scarbrough Cc: shop-talk at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I was taught in drivers ed, now 45 years ago, that in Indiana "coasting" was illegal, as the car was considered out of control.? I assumed that the reasoning was if your brakes failed you might not be able to get it back in gear and use engine braking.? ?Seems a moot point these days as modern cars all have synchros and the brakes are much better than they used to be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave1massey at cs.com Tue Dec 13 05:38:21 2022 From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 12:38:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <350592272.4881038.1670935101539@mail.yahoo.com> You didn't mention what the vehicle is but most manual transmissions have a layshaft that is down in the oil at the bottom transmission.? As long as that layshaft is turning it will be splashing oil and keeping everything lubricated.? That layshaft is driven by the input shaft.? As long as the engine is running (even at idle) the you will get sufficient lubrication regardless whether the driveshaft is turning or not. Flat towing is a whole other animal.? Typically, the engine is not running in which case the main shaft is turning, driven by the drive shaft, but the layshaft is not.? No splash oiling and the bushings can run dry causing damage.? But if the engine is idling and the clutch is engaged - no worries. I suspect that the laws regarding coasting in? neutral date back to the 30's when brakes were iffy at best.? In today's world brakes are much more effective and have a level or redundancy built in. My daily driver has a small engine and provides precious little compression braking.? If my brakes were to fail completely (including my hand brake) the engine braking would do very little to prevent a collision. Dave -----Original Message----- From: eric at megageek.com To: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 9:15 am Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate I'm putting this out to the group to getsome opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck inneutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming toa stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings,just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdinnis at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 07:22:26 2022 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 08:22:26 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Flat towing is a slightly different scenario because the engine is not running. If the engine is running and the clutch is NOT depressed, the input shaft will be turning. As long as the input shaft is turning, there is lubrication provided. When flat towing only the output shaft is turning, so no lubrication. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 1:21 AM Jack Brooks wrote: > Check to see how it can be towed. My 1980 Triumph TR8 cannot be flat > towed, as the tranny uses splash lubrication that does not work in neutral > . I?m not sure that coasting down a really big hill would be a problem, > but I might consider doing it in my TR8 even with the towing limitation, as > this is a relatively short duration event. > > > > Jack > > > > *From:* Shop-talk * On Behalf Of * > eric at megageek.com > *Sent:* Monday, December 12, 2022 7:16 AM > *To:* Shop-talk at autox.team.net > *Subject:* [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate > > > > I'm putting this out to the group to get some opinions from the real > experts here. > > If you put a manually car or truck in neutral and release the clutch while > going down long hills or coming to a stop at a intersection, are you doing > any damage? > > I'm not worried about fuel savings, just is coasting in neutral with the > clutch release. > > Any thoughts? > > Moose > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dmscheidt at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 10:57:13 2022 From: dmscheidt at gmail.com (David Scheidt) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 11:57:13 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> > On Dec 13, 2022, at 09:05, John Innis wrote: > > ? > Flat towing is a slightly different scenario because the engine is not running. If the engine is running and the clutch is NOT depressed, the input shaft will be turning. As long as the input shaft is turning, there is lubrication provided. When flat towing only the output shaft is turning, so no lubrication. The input will be turning at idle. The output will be turning at whatever road speed is. I would not trust the lubrication splash is enough for highway speed. Won?t be long enough for it matter for a stop light, but down a mountain? From eric at megageek.com Tue Dec 13 12:53:43 2022 From: eric at megageek.com (eric at megageek.com) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 14:53:43 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for everyone that gave me input. My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. Any ideas? Moose -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fishplate at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 14:13:39 2022 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 16:13:39 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: You probably wouldn't know until they had an accident and they admitted they were coasting. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 4:00 PM wrote: > > Thanks for everyone that gave me input. > > My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? > > I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. > > Any ideas? > > Moose _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > From jdinnis at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 16:34:52 2022 From: jdinnis at gmail.com (John Innis) Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2022 17:34:52 -0600 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the difference. Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise when going down hill in gear. There is a long gentle hill coming into town not far from where I live. It always seems the commercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM wrote: > Thanks for everyone that gave me input. > > My only question is, How would a cop know you are coasting? > > I mean, I was a cop and never thought about it. > > Any ideas? > > Moose _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com > > -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown = ================================= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave1massey at cs.com Wed Dec 14 05:46:41 2022 From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 12:46:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In-Reply-To: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> References: <5C5684CE-BFDB-4B82-B1E2-5BA1608D25AD@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1662683865.654926.1671022001806@mail.yahoo.com> I flat-towed a TR6 50 miles.? I replaced the transmission a year later.? The bushings on the main shaft failed.? But that is because there is no oiling taking place when the engine is NOT running and the main shaft is turning within the stationary gears.? If the engine is running the layshaft is turning distributing the oil and keeping everything lubricated.? Also, this was after a 50 mile tow. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Pat Horne To: eric at megageek.com Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Mon, Dec 12, 2022 11:28 am Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate In general, I don?t see any problem. However I recall something similar decades ago where a tow truck driver did a two wheel haul on a car that was very low on trans fluid. After a long tow the trans bearings heated up & seized. Can?t say for sure that really happened or not.? Peace,Pat Pat Horne?We support Habitat for Humanity On Dec 12, 2022, at 10:05 AM, eric at megageek.com wrote: ?I'm putting this out to the group to getsome opinions from the real experts here. If you put a manually car or truck inneutral and release the clutch while going down long hills or coming toa stop at a intersection, are you doing any damage? I'm not worried about fuel savings,just is coasting in neutral with the clutch release. Any thoughts? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation ?$12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/patintexas at icloud.com _______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave1massey at cs.com Wed Dec 14 06:07:25 2022 From: dave1massey at cs.com (DAVID MASSEY) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 13:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: <517271198.861076.1671023245517@mail.yahoo.com> Big trucks have a device called a Jake Brake that increases the normal compression braking. Here is s snip from this website:? https://www.truckingtruth.com/wiki/topic-91/jake-brake It is a separate component installed on diesel engines, that when engaged, releases stored, compressed air from the cylinder at the top of the piston's stroke, preventing it from from returning it's energy to the crankshaft and powering the down-stroke, and slowing the vehicle as the air is compressed. When engaged they produce an objectionable amount of noise which is why they are banned in some residential areas.? But they are effective in reducing the amount of brake use and an 18-wheeler has 10 sets of brakes so... Dave -----Original Message----- From: John Innis To: eric at megageek.com Cc: Shop-talk at autox.team.net Sent: Tue, Dec 13, 2022 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought Not sure if you tell with a car, but a big truck you can hear the difference.? Even without using a compression brake they do make some noise when going down hill in gear.? There is a long gentle hill coming into town not far from where I live.? It always seems the commercial vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) are staked out there around harvest time. On Tue, Dec 13, 2022 at 2:59 PM wrote: Thanks for everyonethat gave me input. My only questionis, How would a cop know you are coasting? I mean, I wasa cop and never thought about it. Any ideas? Moose_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/jdinnis at gmail.com -- ================================= = Never offend people with style when you?? = = can offend with substance --- Sam Brown? = =================================_______________________________________________ Shop-talk at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Suggested annual donation? $12.96 Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/dave1massey at cs.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jem at milleredp.com Wed Dec 14 10:52:12 2022 From: jem at milleredp.com (John Miller) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 09:52:12 -0800 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: > vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind. A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound different but won't make much engine braking. An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or out of gear will be significant. The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day when brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm. Wouldn't be surprised to find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use all that downhill for regen. The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully simple...as long as the electronics work. I think every Ford C-Max in the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50. Love to find one... John. From fishplate at gmail.com Wed Dec 14 13:20:04 2022 From: fishplate at gmail.com (Jeff Scarbrough) Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2022 15:20:04 -0500 Subject: [Shop-talk] Coast in Neutral -the next great debate- one final thought In-Reply-To: References: <67734658-0B27-4C88-8F80-827F468E3747@gmail.com> Message-ID: Many hybrid vehicles do use regenerative braking, but remember that using the electric motor as a generator puts a load on the drive system analogous to otto-cycle engine braking. So it's not the same as coasting in neutral. We had an early hybrid Ford Focus in our work fleet. The braking system had a built-in computer to decide the best (of three) methods of slowing the vehicle when it sensed pressure on the brake pedal. Here's an article about just how much goes on between your foot and the wheels:. https://www.underhoodservice.com/tech-feature-ford-hybrid-braking/ On Wed, Dec 14, 2022, 14:47 John Miller wrote: > > vehicle enforcement cars (aka Diesel cops) > > Now if the officers so positioned are lesbians...never mind. > > A diesel without a Jake or other compression assistance might sound > different but won't make much engine braking. > > An Otto might not sound much different but the braking difference in or > out of gear will be significant. > > The whole 'coasting in neutral' thing mattered maybe back in a day when > brakes were FAR poorer than the modern norm. Wouldn't be surprised to > find many modern hybrids effectively shut off the engine and just use > all that downhill for regen. > > The Aisin/Toyota/Ford FWD hybrid transaxle design is so beautifully > simple...as long as the electronics work. I think every Ford C-Max in > the country migrated to California as soon as gas hit $4.50. Love to > find one... > > John. > > _______________________________________________ > > Shop-talk at autox.team.net > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Suggested annual donation $12.96 > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/shop-talk > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe/Manage: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/shop-talk/fishplate at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: