[Shotimes] FW: Still no Start ????

Wed, 9 Jul 2003 23:56:37 -0500

Hello,

I was reading up on the article about the sho's not starting on the
Shotimes website, and was wondering what you all thought.  I know my
battery is shot; I have to jump it every time I try starting it because
the battery doesn't like to hold a charge.  Also the person whom I
bought it from had the battery out of the car and placed it back in
before I picked it up.  I just noticed today that that small wire coming
off of the positive terminal was not connected.  I didn't know what it
was for.  Also the battery connections are only half way on, yet they
seem somewhat tight.  I tried reconnecting that small wire and noticed
that the engine seemed as if it wanted to fire now, better than it was
before, but still would not run.  Any thoughs?  

Shaun Livermore
91 SHO+  127000 miles
Sussex, WI 

The PCM fires the injectors. Take the PCM fire wall connection off and
clean and put back together. Does you check engine like come on when the
key is on? Light looks good and strong? . .

> OK,
>
> The car's back together but will not run.  I pressed on the fuel 
> pressure valve and fuel indeed did squirt out.  It will still fire 
> with starting fluid but only for a few seconds.  ??????  Help!!!!
>
> Thanks,
> Shaun
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: van Oss [mailto:vanOss@centurytel.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 3:02 PM
> To: Shaun & Meggen Livermore
> Subject: Re: [Shotimes] No start!! Help
>
> Okay.  Put that baby back together and then get back to us.  We'll be 
> very happy to talk you through the tests and checks that will pin this

> down.
>
> Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun & Meggen Livermore [mailto:smlivermore@wi.rr.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 2:12 PM
To: shotimes@autox.team.net
Subject: Still no Start ????

OK,

The car's back together but will not run.  I pressed on the fuel
pressure valve and fuel indeed did squirt out.  It will still fire with
starting fluid but only for a few seconds.  ??????  Help!!!!

Thanks,
Shaun 

-----Original Message-----
From: van Oss [mailto:vanOss@centurytel.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 3:02 PM
To: Shaun & Meggen Livermore
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

Okay.  Put that baby back together and then get back to us.  We'll be
very happy to talk you through the tests and checks that will pin this
down.

Joseph

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun & Meggen Livermore" <smlivermore@wi.rr.com>
To: "'van Oss'" <vanOss@centurytel.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:26 AM
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

I think the car is wired correctly now, except for that one wire to the
fuel pump.  When I got it the lights didn't work and the keyless entry
didn't work, etc.  but now everything appears to be working, except for
the engine not running.

-----Original Message-----
From: van Oss [mailto:vanOss@centurytel.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 11:19 AM
To: Shaun & Meggen Livermore
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

My previous message was only trying to answer your question about the
wire to the pump.  I did not mean it as a response to the overall
no-start problem.

Before we can do more about no-start, we're going to need the car
reassembled.  Before you put the intake back on, I would pull each plug
wire off the plug and check for any oil or water in each plug well.  If
the plug wells are clean, go ahead and put the intake back on the
engine.  There are some tests we'll need you to run, and those tests
require an assembled car.

How confident are you that the wiring has been put right?

Joseph

----- Original Message -----
Even if I did that why won't the thing run.  By bypassing the CCRM would
the car not run, and if so why did it run before?

-----Original Message-----
From: van Oss [mailto:vanOss@centurytel.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:43 AM
To: Shaun & Meggen Livermore; shotimes@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

There is another explanation (besides the alarm) why someone installed a
direct line for power to the fuel pump.  In a stock SHO, there is a
black box on the radiator wall, a bit left of center, called the
Constant Control Relay Module.  Inside this box is a relay that, under
the direction of the engine computer, sends power to the fuel pump.
When this relay fails, replacing the whole CCRM is very pricey.  So a
previous owner might have worked around a bad CCRM by wiring in his own
line.  If my guess is right, he wired it in such a way that the supply
of power is no longer under the control of the engine computer, and is
merely either off or constantly on. There are a couple of ways you could
resolve this:

--- You could keep the separate power line to the pump, but change it on
the front end so that it's wired properly, with a relay.  This would
restore the engine computer's control over power to the pump.

--- You could remove the added line to the pump, swap in an another CCRM
(to make sure that's the issue), and restore your SHO to stock wiring.

Joseph van Oss

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun & Meggen Livermore" <smlivermore@wi.rr.com>
To: <shotimes@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 10:04 AM
Subject: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

Well there's more to the problem.  I'll give you the long story....

The car has been sitting on and off for the past 2 years.  I've been
looking at it for the past three months, and started it, and even drove
it about a month ago.  Then on the day that I was supposed to pick it up
it wouldn't start.  The owner, a friends, friend, came out to look at it
that day to try to get it started.  He replaced the fuel filter and said
that the fuel pump was fairly new.  He tried the starting fluid and it
would run just as I tried.  The car also had an alarm in it and he
thought maybe that was the problem so he ripped it out. In doing so he
didn't take the time to reconnect all the wires.  Either way he couldn't
get it running.  The following day I had it towed over to my house so I
could work on it.  I was thinking maybe the gas had gone bad so I
drained all of it out of the tank, running it through the fuel filter,
and refilled it with some new gas, but that didn't do the trick.  I then
was worried about the unconnected wires so I spent all day and night
trying to reconnect all the wires that appeared to be spiced.  Then when
I took off the back seat I became really confused.  There had been a
wire, he must have put in there, connecting the fuel pump directly to a
30 amp fuse in the main fuse panel upfront.  I wasn't sure if this was
for the alarm or what, so I asked him, and he said he didn't put it
there.  I tried undoing the spiced wire and reconnecting the factory
wires, but when I do so the fuel pump does NOT run at all.  When that
spiced wire IS connected the pump runs but all the time.  I then thought
maybe it was the injectors so I took them out and they appear to be
fine.  Even though the splicing with the fuel pump is odd I don't
understand how it can run one day and a month later it wouldn't.  It sat
since I test drove it and nobody touched it since.  I don't know what to
do.  The intake is still all apart and I haven't put the injectors back
in yet.  It's a disaster.  Help!!

Thanks again,
Shaun Livermore

Shaun,

Is the intake back on the car now?

You're right, when you turn the key to the RUN position, the fuel pump
is supposed to come on for just a couple of seconds to build pressure in
the system.  Can you find the schraeder valve nestled among the intake
runners? (Looks like a valve stem like you'd put air in a tire.)  With
key in RUN, wrap a rag around this stem and press it lightly.  If a
little fuel sprays out, you have fuel pressure.

The engine computer decides when to fire the injectors.  That is a ways
down on the list of probable causes.

Tell us more about the history of this car, if you know it.  It has
never been able to stay running, since you bought it?  Is that why it
was sold? What parts, especially engine sensors, have been replaced
recently? What about the fuel filter?

Joseph van Oss
La Crosse, WI

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun & Meggen Livermore" <smlivermore@wi.rr.com>
To: <shotimes@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 8:51 AM
Subject: [Shotimes] No start!! Help

Hello everyone,

I hope one of you can help me with this problem.  I have a 91' + with
127k miles that I just bought.  The only thing is that it will not run.
If you spray starting fluid in the throttle body it will run for a few
seconds, so I thought maybe it was fuel related.  I took off the intake
and can hear gas running through the fuel rails and inspected the
injectors which appear to be clean.  It seems as if there might be
something electronically wrong which is not turning the injectors on.
Also when you turn the key to "On" the fuel pump run continuously, and
I'm not sure if it is supposed to do that.  I thought it was just
supposed to prime the fuel injection.  Anyway I was wondering if there
is some type of fuel relay of fuse that could be blown stopping my
injectors to fire?  A wiring diagram would be excellent if any one has
one!  Please any suggestions would be of great help, as I haven't been
able to drive it since I bought it, and I'm getting really anxious.

Thanks again,

Shaun Livermore

1991 SHO Plus
Sussex, WI 53089
262-844-1123
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