From aballard at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 1 14:10:48 2020 From: aballard at ix.netcom.com (Allan Ballard) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 16:10:48 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Dipstick Message-ID: <811A5839-5270-4197-9362-7CADF84EDC07@ix.netcom.com> Here?s a couple of pictures of the handle and parts tag of an unused dipstick. The dipstick is about 12 years old. I believe I bought it at NAPA. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0278.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 982742 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: IMG_0279.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 3371370 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Sent from my iPhone From rfraser at bluefrog.com Sun Mar 1 20:12:44 2020 From: rfraser at bluefrog.com (Ron Fraser) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2020 22:12:44 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Dipstick In-Reply-To: <811A5839-5270-4197-9362-7CADF84EDC07@ix.netcom.com> References: <811A5839-5270-4197-9362-7CADF84EDC07@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <000c01d5f040$7288aa70$5799ff50$@bluefrog.com> Allan Excellent! C3OZ-6750-B - this is the part # listed with the Scott Drake made dipstick. The biggest problem I see in the Mustang catalogs is that they mostly do not indicate the length of the dipstick or tube. The dipstick and tube are matched pairs. The Tube ? C2OZ-6754-A is listed by Ford at 15.83? long The dipstick is 24.44" shield to end. Order carefully if you need both. Look for 260 with generator. Ron Fraser -----Original Message----- From: Tigers On Behalf Of Allan Ballard via Tigers Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2020 4:11 PM To: Tiger List List Subject: [Tigers] Dipstick Here?s a couple of pictures of the handle and parts tag of an unused dipstick. The dipstick is about 12 years old. I believe I bought it at NAPA. From jmartiniii at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 11:06:29 2020 From: jmartiniii at yahoo.com (Joel Martin) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2020 18:06:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 12, Issue 36 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <364828737.2246077.1583172389263@mail.yahoo.com> Rick at Sunbeam Specialties sells a dip stick for around $20. It has the short curved handle. Part # TM50. This worked with the generator out of the box but had to bend the tube slightly when changed over to alternator with the old CAT alternator bracket. On Sunday, March 1, 2020, 10:44:07 AM EST, wrote: Send Tigers mailing list submissions to ??? tigers at autox.team.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? tigers-request at autox.team.net You can reach the person managing the list at ??? tigers-owner at autox.team.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Tigers digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: dipstick tube 260CID engine (Buck Trippel) ? 2. Re: dipstick tube 260CID engine (Ron Fraser) There are two part numbers in the Parts Manual for dipsticks. ? I found a drawing of the earlier version (1224808) but was unsuccessful on the latter (6100734). ? The drawing I found referenced Ford part number C20E-6750-A, but I doubt they differed very much. ? Buck ? ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of D or G at sbc via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 5:23 PM To: 'Ron Fraser' ; rick at atmospherebuilders.com Cc: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? Scott Drake has them but you can't purchase them directly from him, you have to go through one of his dealers (they are all over the US). ? I find it strange that Rootes shows the Ford part number for the dip stick tube which has to be bent to work in a Tiger, but they don't show a Ford number for the long finger pull dip stick which is a regular Ford stick with the end bent to about 85 degrees, way easier to do than the tube. ? David Franchi ? On Thursday, February 27, 2020, 4:58:02 PM PST, Ron Fraser via Tigers < > wrote: ? ? Darn I forgot to include Most of the Mustang and Falcon catalogs should carry these parts. I believe Scott Drake is making them. ? Ron Fraser ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ron Fraser via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 7:51 PM To: rick at atmospherebuilders.com Cc: tigers at Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? Here is some additional info ? Tube ? C2OZ-6754-A is listed by Ford at 15.83? long, for 260 and 289 engines with generator I measured my tube at very near this length with about 14 ?? above the timing cover to its end. ? Dipstick - C30Z-6750-B This is the Ford part number listed for 1964, 260 and 289 engines with generators. 22.48" shield to FULL 23.32" shield to ADD 24.44" shield to end This is extremely close to the measurements I took on my dipstick. Additionally:???? Width = .295???? Thickness = .060? ? Ron Fraser ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Richard Hyatt via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 5:27 PM To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? When I got my engine back from a high performance machine shop, they happily pointed out the new chrome dipstick and dipstick tube they had obtained and installed in the process. Unfortunately this will not fit correctly as you can imagine. Mysteriously although they had returned some other parts, the dipstick was missing and the old tube battered to the point of no use. I am hoping to find a solution??.not sure if anyone has ever made a pattern of the original tube or has any ideas. Thanks. Rick _______________________________________________ tigers at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/orr4sale at sbcglobal.net Buck ??????????????? I have 1 catalog that shows a C3OZ-6750-B dipstick which has almost exact measure as C2OZ-6750-B. I?m not sure why there is a suffix letter change from C2OZ-6750-A ? the measurements look the same. There is no illustration of these parts to indicate differences. ? C2OZ-6750-B before 8/20/64 C3OZ-6750-B after 8/20/64 ? Ron Fraser ? From: Buck Trippel Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 9:37 PM To: 'D or G at sbc' ; 'Ron Fraser' ; rick at atmospherebuilders.com Cc: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: RE: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? There are two part numbers in the Parts Manual for dipsticks. ? I found a drawing of the earlier version (1224808) but was unsuccessful on the latter (6100734). ? The drawing I found referenced Ford part number C20E-6750-A, but I doubt they differed very much. ? Buck ? ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of D or G at sbc via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 5:23 PM To: 'Ron Fraser' ; rick at atmospherebuilders.com Cc: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? Scott Drake has them but you can't purchase them directly from him, you have to go through one of his dealers (they are all over the US). ? I find it strange that Rootes shows the Ford part number for the dip stick tube which has to be bent to work in a Tiger, but they don't show a Ford number for the long finger pull dip stick which is a regular Ford stick with the end bent to about 85 degrees, way easier to do than the tube. ? David Franchi ? On Thursday, February 27, 2020, 4:58:02 PM PST, Ron Fraser via Tigers < > wrote: ? ? Darn I forgot to include Most of the Mustang and Falcon catalogs should carry these parts. I believe Scott Drake is making them. ? Ron Fraser ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ron Fraser via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 7:51 PM To: rick at atmospherebuilders.com Cc: tigers at Autox.Team.Net Subject: Re: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? Here is some additional info ? Tube ? C2OZ-6754-A is listed by Ford at 15.83? long, for 260 and 289 engines with generator I measured my tube at very near this length with about 14 ?? above the timing cover to its end. ? Dipstick - C30Z-6750-B This is the Ford part number listed for 1964, 260 and 289 engines with generators. 22.48" shield to FULL 23.32" shield to ADD 24.44" shield to end This is extremely close to the measurements I took on my dipstick. Additionally:???? Width = .295???? Thickness = .060? ? Ron Fraser ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Richard Hyatt via Tigers Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 5:27 PM To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] dipstick tube 260CID engine ? When I got my engine back from a high performance machine shop, they happily pointed out the new chrome dipstick and dipstick tube they had obtained and installed in the process. Unfortunately this will not fit correctly as you can imagine. Mysteriously although they had returned some other parts, the dipstick was missing and the old tube battered to the point of no use. I am hoping to find a solution??.not sure if anyone has ever made a pattern of the original tube or has any ideas. Thanks. Rick _______________________________________________ tigers at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/orr4sale at sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ Tigers mailing list Tigers at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwittsend at verizon.net Tue Mar 3 20:59:36 2020 From: atwittsend at verizon.net (Tom Witt) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2020 19:59:36 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Taking another "swing" at an urban legend References: <45dfade0-ca85-c5f7-6d5f-21a6112793a5.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <45dfade0-ca85-c5f7-6d5f-21a6112793a5@verizon.net> Straight from those in the homeland: They don't say "firewall," rather they convey,hammering the inner wing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.s.king at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 21:11:38 2020 From: michael.s.king at gmail.com (michael king) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2020 15:11:38 +1100 Subject: [Tigers] Taking another "swing" at an urban legend In-Reply-To: <45dfade0-ca85-c5f7-6d5f-21a6112793a5@verizon.net> References: <45dfade0-ca85-c5f7-6d5f-21a6112793a5.ref@verizon.net> <45dfade0-ca85-c5f7-6d5f-21a6112793a5@verizon.net> Message-ID: I can't work out whuch is worse... Saying they made them with a hammer... Or the utter stupidity saying Chrysler sent over a bunch of V8s and the reason they stopped producing the Tiger is that with the chysler v8 there wasnt enough room to swing the hammer ... Implying A. The Chrysler fits with its rear distributor.... B. That when making the tiger they put the engine in and then used a hammer to create clearance. C. That they didnt have enough room to swing a hammer in the engine bay with the Chrysler v8 fitted... How do these people get these jobs....... On Wed., 4 Mar. 2020, 14:59 Tom Witt via Tigers, wrote: > Straight from those in the homeland: > > They don't say "firewall," rather they convey, hammering the inner wing > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/michael.s.king at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.s.king at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 23:13:06 2020 From: michael.s.king at gmail.com (michael king) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 17:13:06 +1100 Subject: [Tigers] mailing list removal error? Message-ID: Is anyone else getting several messages from the mailing list saying they are requesting to be removed from the Tigers list? I received 3 confimations messages to be removed from the list within 2 mins, not sure why. -- Regards Michael King -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfraser at bluefrog.com Thu Mar 5 06:14:15 2020 From: rfraser at bluefrog.com (Ron Fraser) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2020 08:14:15 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] mailing list removal error? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000501d5f2ef$fd2ae510$f780af30$@bluefrog.com> Yes I have but not lately. They looked suspicious to me and I just deleted them. You can always contact the List administrator if you are really concerned. I got 1 that I somehow was able to trace the email address back to an address in southern Florida. I recently got some from what looked like they were from my internet provider. The email content and address looked suspicious and the address also looked like it was from another country. Reported them and deleted them. Never open any links in them. Ron Fraser From: Tigers On Behalf Of michael king via Tigers Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 1:13 AM To: Tiger Talk List Tiger Subject: [Tigers] mailing list removal error? Is anyone else getting several messages from the mailing list saying they are requesting to be removed from the Tigers list? I received 3 confimations messages to be removed from the list within 2 mins, not sure why. -- Regards Michael King -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sabre2tgr at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 12:45:35 2020 From: sabre2tgr at gmail.com (Stu) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:45:35 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Oil Pressure Gauge Removal Message-ID: I did this once before, so I know I'm going to feel stupid when someone tells me the trick.... I'm trying to get the gauge out to upgrade the hose. I can get one of the knurled nuts on the U-bracket free, but not the one on the top. I have the speedometer out, and am reaching in through that hole, able to get a finger or a finger and a half on the nut. But not enough to turn it, It didn't look like removing the tach would provide any better access. Does anyone out there know a trick? Stu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cbowland at msn.com Sat Mar 7 12:48:16 2020 From: cbowland at msn.com (Curt Bowland) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 19:48:16 +0000 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend Message-ID: While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to expensive a change to tool for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jd.sencindiver at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 15:56:57 2020 From: jd.sencindiver at gmail.com (Jim Sencindiver) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:56:57 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another part of the problem was where to relocate the heater core and re-route the air vent hoses and coolant hoses. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jd.sencindiver at gmail.com > > > -- Jim Sencindiver B382100451/TAC 448 http://www.tigersunited.com/car_show/sencindiver_j/default.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sabre2tgr at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 16:47:02 2020 From: sabre2tgr at gmail.com (Stu) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:47:02 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, but they were also much wider. The budget to do a major redesign of the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it bumper?) requirements was not there, So Tigers ended in '67. Stu On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From garywinblad at comcast.net Sat Mar 7 17:06:15 2020 From: garywinblad at comcast.net (Gary) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:06:15 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30016137-be12-350a-e97d-1506b89fba6c@comcast.net> Stu is the winna... Urban myth is just that, a myth when it comes? to Sunbeam Tiger distributors and engines causing it to be discontinued. One good description from: https://autouniversum.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/1968-u-s-lawmakers-introduce-automotive-safety-standards/ The first set of rules took effect exactly fifty years ago, January 1968; less than fifteen months after the agency was established. Most of the new regulations simply codified best practice; requiring all vehicles to have padded instrument panels, recessed inside door handles, non-rigid armrests, breakaway inside mirrors, labeled controls, twin-circuit brakes, two-speed wipers covering a minimum percentage of the windscreen area, a left-hand outside mirror, reversing lamps and four-way hazard flashers. Other regulations required new features: energy-absorbing steering columns, a warning lamp for brake circuit depressurization, minimal post-collision fuel spillage, front and rear side marker lights or reflectors, and windscreens with thicker-interlayer safety glass and improved retention. Finally, all vehicles had to survive a 30 mph (48 kph) crash into a concrete barrier demonstrating survivability of standardized test dummies in the front seats. etc... Gary On 3/7/2020 3:47 PM, Stu via Tigers wrote: > IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, > but they were also much wider.? The budget to do a major redesign of > the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it > bumper?) requirements was not there,? So Tigers ended in '67. > > Stu > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers > > wrote: > > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was > aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the > rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of > the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic > firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb > installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a > possibility.? Probably would have been to expensive a change to > tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad at comcast.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbsyv at yahoo.com Sat Mar 7 17:09:05 2020 From: jbsyv at yahoo.com (Jim B) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:09:05 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I took a quick look at engine dimensions on the web and it looks like the Mopar 273 was the same dimension as the small block ford except it was an inch taller. With the distributor issue, I wonder how much time they actually spent on discussing an engine replacement. One of the things about Tigers is: The stories are endless. And fun! Lol > On Mar 7, 2020, at 3:47 PM, Stu via Tigers wrote: > > IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, but they were also much wider. The budget to do a major redesign of the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it bumper?) requirements was not there, So Tigers ended in '67. > > Stu > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers > wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jbsyv at yahoo.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbsyv at yahoo.com Sat Mar 7 17:12:16 2020 From: jbsyv at yahoo.com (Jim B) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:12:16 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <30016137-be12-350a-e97d-1506b89fba6c@comcast.net> References: <30016137-be12-350a-e97d-1506b89fba6c@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3197B371-326A-43F8-9C6A-5926D07FB626@yahoo.com> I think Gary is spot on. Question, does that mean we are all test dummies? J/k > On Mar 7, 2020, at 4:06 PM, Gary via Tigers wrote: > > Stu is the winna... > Urban myth is just that, a myth when it comes to Sunbeam Tiger distributors and engines causing it to be discontinued. > > One good description from: https://autouniversum.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/1968-u-s-lawmakers-introduce-automotive-safety-standards/ > > The first set of rules took effect exactly fifty years ago, January 1968; less than fifteen months after the agency was established. > Most of the new regulations simply codified best practice; requiring all vehicles to have padded instrument panels, recessed inside door handles, non-rigid armrests, breakaway inside mirrors, labeled controls, twin-circuit brakes, two-speed wipers covering a minimum percentage of the windscreen area, a left-hand outside mirror, reversing lamps and four-way hazard flashers. > > Other regulations required new features: energy-absorbing steering columns, a warning lamp for brake circuit depressurization, minimal post-collision fuel spillage, front and rear side marker lights or reflectors, and windscreens with thicker-interlayer safety glass and improved retention. Finally, all vehicles had to survive a 30 mph (48 kph) crash into a concrete barrier demonstrating survivability of standardized test dummies in the front seats. > > etc... > > Gary > > > > On 3/7/2020 3:47 PM, Stu via Tigers wrote: >> IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, but they were also much wider. The budget to do a major redesign of the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it bumper?) requirements was not there, So Tigers ended in '67. >> >> Stu >> >> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers > wrote: >> While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. >> >> I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to expensive a change to tool for. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> tigers at autox.team.net >> >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> tigers at autox.team.net >> >> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad at comcast.net >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jbsyv at yahoo.com > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rfraser at bluefrog.com Sat Mar 7 18:01:02 2020 From: rfraser at bluefrog.com (Ron Fraser) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 20:01:02 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <3197B371-326A-43F8-9C6A-5926D07FB626@yahoo.com> References: <30016137-be12-350a-e97d-1506b89fba6c@comcast.net> <3197B371-326A-43F8-9C6A-5926D07FB626@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <001b01d5f4e5$0b9ec3e0$22dc4ba0$@bluefrog.com> Jim Yes, we are all test dummies no matter what vehicle we drive. We just have a silly little smile on our face when we drive our Tigers. ? Ron Fraser -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjtwgoodman at aol.com Sat Mar 7 18:12:33 2020 From: wjtwgoodman at aol.com (Warren Goodman) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:12:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Tigers Digest, Vol 12, Issue 41 References: <1658953062.1956638.1583629953442.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1658953062.1956638.1583629953442@mail.yahoo.com> Don't forget to add NHTSA? regulations.? Google 1967 NHTSA regulations for an eye opener.? Dual circuit brakes, crush zones ... Beating a Chrysler motor to fit would have been easier. On Saturday, March 7, 2020 tigers-request wrote: Send Tigers mailing list submissions to ??? tigers at autox.team.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? tigers-request at autox.team.net You can reach the person managing the list at ??? tigers-owner at autox.team.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Tigers digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Oil Pressure Gauge Removal (Stu) ? 2. Urban legend (Curt Bowland) ? 3. Re: Urban legend (Jim Sencindiver) ? 4. Re: Urban legend (Stu) ? 5. Re: Urban legend (Gary) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 14:45:35 -0500 From: Stu To: Tiger Net Subject: [Tigers] Oil Pressure Gauge Removal Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I did this once before, so I know I'm going to feel stupid when someone tells me the trick.... I'm trying to get the gauge out to upgrade the hose.? I can get one of the knurled nuts on the U-bracket free, but not the one on the top. I have the speedometer out, and am reaching in through that hole, able to get a finger or a finger and a half on the nut.? But not enough to turn it, It didn't look like removing the tach would provide any better access. Does anyone out there know a trick? Stu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 19:48:16 +0000 From: Curt Bowland To: tigers Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend Message-ID: ??? ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a possibility.? Probably would have been to expensive a change to tool for. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 17:56:57 -0500 From: Jim Sencindiver To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Another part of the problem was where to relocate the heater core and re-route the air vent hoses and coolant hoses. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility.? Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jd.sencindiver at gmail.com > > > -- Jim Sencindiver B382100451/TAC 448 http://www.tigersunited.com/car_show/sencindiver_j/default.asp -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 18:47:02 -0500 From: Stu To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend Message-ID: ??? Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, but they were also much wider.? The budget to do a major redesign of the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it bumper?) requirements was not there,? So Tigers ended in '67. Stu On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility.? Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 16:06:15 -0800 From: Gary To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend Message-ID: <30016137-be12-350a-e97d-1506b89fba6c at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" Stu is the winna... Urban myth is just that, a myth when it comes? to Sunbeam Tiger distributors and engines causing it to be discontinued. One good description from: https://autouniversum.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/1968-u-s-lawmakers-introduce-automotive-safety-standards/ The first set of rules took effect exactly fifty years ago, January 1968; less than fifteen months after the agency was established. Most of the new regulations simply codified best practice; requiring all vehicles to have padded instrument panels, recessed inside door handles, non-rigid armrests, breakaway inside mirrors, labeled controls, twin-circuit brakes, two-speed wipers covering a minimum percentage of the windscreen area, a left-hand outside mirror, reversing lamps and four-way hazard flashers. Other regulations required new features: energy-absorbing steering columns, a warning lamp for brake circuit depressurization, minimal post-collision fuel spillage, front and rear side marker lights or reflectors, and windscreens with thicker-interlayer safety glass and improved retention. Finally, all vehicles had to survive a 30 mph (48 kph) crash into a concrete barrier demonstrating survivability of standardized test dummies in the front seats. etc... Gary On 3/7/2020 3:47 PM, Stu via Tigers wrote: > IIRC Chrysler V-8's of the era not only had the distributor problem, > but they were also much wider.? The budget to do a major redesign of > the engine compartment, as well as meet the new '68 safety (or was it > bumper?) requirements was not there,? So Tigers ended in '67. > > Stu > > On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:48 PM Curt Bowland via Tigers > > wrote: > >? ? While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was >? ? aware that the inability of clearance available to accommodate the >? ? rear position of the distributor was THE issue for the demise of >? ? the Tiger. > >? ? I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic >? ? firewall notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb >? ? installation. Just wondering if that might have worked/been a >? ? possibility.? Probably would have been to expensive a change to >? ? tool for. >? ? _______________________________________________ > >? ? tigers at autox.team.net > >? ? Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html >? ? Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers >? ? http://autox.team.net/archive > >? ? Unsubscribe: >? ? http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/sabre2tgr at gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/garywinblad at comcast.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: ------------------------------ Subject: Digest Footer _______________________________________________ Tigers mailing list Tigers at autox.team.net http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/tigers Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive ------------------------------ End of Tigers Digest, Vol 12, Issue 41 ************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Tigers at embarqmail.com Sat Mar 7 21:01:02 2020 From: Tigers at embarqmail.com (Will Seay) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2020 23:01:02 -0500 Subject: [Tigers] Oil Pressure Gauge Removal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Stu, I have never been able to remove/work on the oil pressure gauge without removing both spedo and tach to get access. With both spedo and tach out you can get both hands on the gauge. If there's a trick, I don't know it Will - 382001570 Tigers at embarqmail.com On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 2:45 PM Stu via Tigers wrote: > I did this once before, so I know I'm going to feel stupid when someone > tells me the trick.... > > I'm trying to get the gauge out to upgrade the hose. I can get one of the > knurled nuts on the U-bracket free, but not the one on the top. I have the > speedometer out, and am reaching in through that hole, able to get a finger > or a finger and a half on the nut. But not enough to turn it, > > It didn't look like removing the tach would provide any better access. > > Does anyone out there know a trick? > > Stu > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/tigers at embarqmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 8 03:56:33 2020 From: ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net (Ross Hulse) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:56:33 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:48 AM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 8 03:56:33 2020 From: ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net (Ross Hulse) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:56:33 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:48 AM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 8 03:56:33 2020 From: ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net (Ross Hulse) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 01:56:33 -0800 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 11:48 AM Curt Bowland via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > While I have no idea about the Chrysler engine fit thread I was aware that > the inability of clearance available to accommodate the rear position of > the distributor was THE issue for the demise of the Tiger. > > I have seen several Tigers with what looks like fairly dramatic firewall > notching, mostly all to accommodate Weber Carb installation. Just wondering > if that might have worked/been a possibility. Probably would have been to > expensive a change to tool for. > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ross_hulse at sbcglobal.net > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bucktrippel at verizon.net Sun Mar 8 12:30:12 2020 From: bucktrippel at verizon.net (Buck Trippel) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 11:30:12 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement sportscar. The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger production. Buck Trippel From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ross Hulse via Tigers Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bucktrippel at verizon.net Sun Mar 8 12:30:12 2020 From: bucktrippel at verizon.net (Buck Trippel) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 11:30:12 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement sportscar. The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger production. Buck Trippel From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ross Hulse via Tigers Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ktisdale at ix.netcom.com Sun Mar 8 14:39:35 2020 From: ktisdale at ix.netcom.com (Ken) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 14:39:35 -0600 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <94673577-c165-1424-ffa4-98e2aff2c025@ix.netcom.com> Thank you Buck for settling this matter. Wish that I could spend time going through the archives! Ken Tisdale On 3/8/2020 12:30 PM, Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: > > The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was > discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers > housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. > > Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to > a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the > heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated > thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days > reading them and want to go back. > > Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger > represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a > blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board > meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the > discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not > the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded > 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used > on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial > sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth > also outlines other contributing issues. > > Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a > Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been > built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of > those alternatives worked out. > > After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. > Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar > that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed > and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the > initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? > attempt at a replacement sportscar. > > The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased > for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards > were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger > platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would > have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. > > The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was > needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and > therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of > upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be > built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire > Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point > Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never > happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. > > Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger > production. > > Buck Trippel > > *From:* Tigers *On Behalf Of *Ross > Hulse via Tigers > *Sent:* Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM > *To:* Curt Bowland > *Cc:* tigers > *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Urban legend > > The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well.? > The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to > the car.? So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars > that were in the line and send them to Canada.? Everything about not > fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ktisdale at ix.netcom.com > > -- Ken Tisdale 303-807-5488 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwittsend at verizon.net Sun Mar 8 16:28:33 2020 From: atwittsend at verizon.net (Tom Witt) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 15:28:33 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <94673577-c165-1424-ffa4-98e2aff2c025@ix.netcom.com> References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> <94673577-c165-1424-ffa4-98e2aff2c025@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: I'd be curious to know if the successor Alpine (the Baby Barracuda) had any "Tiger-izing" considerations? While not a sports car it would have been an interesting concept given that the USA was in the pony car phase at that time. The later Alpine likely met regulations for importation at the time as a number of them were sold here. Then again I doubt it would have been Ford Small block powered. And what would have been the Chrysler 273/318 at the time is a rather wide small block engine. Mike Taylor's "The Making OF A Sports Car" states that the Humber Super Snipe had?? number of prototype's built with the Chrysler V8. Hence my curiosity regarding the possibility of a later Alpine with a Chrysler V8. ?? In a sense we probably need to be grateful that we got three full years of Tigers. If I recall correctly the imports were given a 2 year delay in meeting standards that I believe were mandated for '65 or '66 for USA cars. On 3/8/2020 1:39 PM, Ken via Tigers wrote: > > Thank you Buck for settling this matter. Wish that I could spend time > going through the archives! > > Ken Tisdale > > On 3/8/2020 12:30 PM, Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: >> >> The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was >> discontinued that I???ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers >> housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. >> >> Mr Papworth was a very high level ???planner??? for Rootes. He reported >> to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were >> the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated >> thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I???ve spent several days >> reading them and want to go back. >> >> Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger >> represented only 2% of Rootes??? sales and was consequentially just a >> blip on management???s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board >> meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the >> discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not >> the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded >> 5-bolt 14??? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used >> on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial >> sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel???s back. But >> Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. >> >> Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a >> Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been >> built a new ???Tiger??? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none >> of those alternatives worked out. >> >> After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. >> Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar >> that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ???Apex???, had been designed >> and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the >> initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes??? >> attempt at a replacement sportscar. >> >> The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it >> purchased for government use ??? the GSA standards. These existing GSA >> standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The >> Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling >> for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low >> production volume. >> >> The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was >> needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and >> therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of >> upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger >> be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire >> Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point >> Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move >> never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build >> the cars. >> >> Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger >> production. >> >> Buck Trippel >> >> *From:* Tigers *On Behalf Of *Ross >> Hulse via Tigers >> *Sent:* Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM >> *To:* Curt Bowland >> *Cc:* tigers >> *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Urban legend >> >> The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very >> well.?? The USA import regs for cars would require expensive >> modifications to the car.?? So in February 1967 the decision was made >> to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada.?? >> Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> tigers at autox.team.net >> >> Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html >> Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive >> >> Unsubscribe:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ktisdale at ix.netcom.com >> >> > -- > Ken Tisdale > 303-807-5488 > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/atwittsend at verizon.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.s.king at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 00:31:56 2020 From: michael.s.king at gmail.com (michael king) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2020 17:31:56 +1100 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> <94673577-c165-1424-ffa4-98e2aff2c025@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Tom, There were 2 v8 engined fastbacks they were known as a Sunbeam Allegro. On Mon., 9 Mar. 2020, 09:28 Tom Witt via Tigers, wrote: > I'd be curious to know if the successor Alpine (the Baby Barracuda) had > any "Tiger-izing" considerations? While not a sports car it would have been > an interesting concept given that the USA was in the pony car phase at that > time. The later Alpine likely met regulations for importation at the time > as a number of them were sold here. Then again I doubt it would have been > Ford Small block powered. And what would have been the Chrysler 273/318 at > the time is a rather wide small block engine. Mike Taylor's "The Making OF > A Sports Car" states that the Humber Super Snipe had?? number of > prototype's built with the Chrysler V8. Hence my curiosity regarding the > possibility of a later Alpine with a Chrysler V8. > > ?? In a sense we probably need to be grateful that we got three full years > of Tigers. If I recall correctly the imports were given a 2 year delay in > meeting standards that I believe were mandated for '65 or '66 for USA cars. > On 3/8/2020 1:39 PM, Ken via Tigers wrote: > > Thank you Buck for settling this matter. Wish that I could spend time > going through the archives! > > Ken Tisdale > On 3/8/2020 12:30 PM, Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: > > The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was > discontinued that I???ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers > housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. > > ?? > > Mr Papworth was a very high level ???planner??? for Rootes. He reported to > a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart > of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages > of notes and memos. I???ve spent several days reading them and want to go > back. > > ?? > > Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger > represented only 2% of Rootes??? sales and was consequentially just a blip > on management???s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings > as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The > Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the > engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14??? wheels to fit > 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street > Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that > broke the camel???s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing > issues. > > ?? > > Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. > They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new > ???Tiger??? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those > alternatives worked out. > > ?? > > After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie > wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was > similar to a Spitfire. That car, ???Apex???, had been designed and was very > close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate > for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes??? attempt at a replacement > sportscar. > > ?? > > The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for > government use ??? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were > eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform > would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been > costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. > > ?? > > The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed > by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher > priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with > GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at > alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from > Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase > Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an > alternate contractor to build the cars. > > ?? > > Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger > production. > > ?? > > Buck Trippel > > ?? > > *From:* Tigers > *On Behalf Of *Ross Hulse via Tigers > *Sent:* Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM > *To:* Curt Bowland > *Cc:* tigers > *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Urban legend > > ?? > > The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well.?? > The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the > car.?? So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that > were in the line and send them to Canada.?? Everything about not fitting a > Chrysler engine is just a??rumor.?? > > ?? > > _______________________________________________ > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ktisdale at ix.netcom.com > > -- > Ken Tisdale > 303-807-5488 > > > _______________________________________________ > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/atwittsend at verizon.net > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/michael.s.king at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jay.laifman at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 13:36:05 2020 From: jay.laifman at gmail.com (Jay Laifman) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 12:36:05 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: Wow. Thanks Buck. I've never heard of the Apex (at least that I can remember). Just did a search and came up with these great pictures and info. Love the hardtop! http://tardis.dl.ac.uk/Mercia/killeen_book/node13.html On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:30 AM Buck Trippel via Tigers < tigers at autox.team.net> wrote: > The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was > discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers > housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. > > > > Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a > very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of > the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of > notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. > > > > Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger > represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on > management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as > the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & > 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers > had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel > discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) > and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke > the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. > > > > Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. > They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new > ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those > alternatives worked out. > > > > After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie > wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was > similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very > close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate > for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement > sportscar. > > > > The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for > government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were > eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform > would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been > costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. > > > > The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed > by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher > priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with > GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at > alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from > Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase > Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an > alternate contractor to build the cars. > > > > Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger > production. > > > > Buck Trippel > > > > *From:* Tigers *On Behalf Of *Ross Hulse > via Tigers > *Sent:* Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM > *To:* Curt Bowland > *Cc:* tigers > *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Urban legend > > > > The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The > USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. > So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in > the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler > engine is just a rumor. > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jay.laifman at gmail.com > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tym2 at comcast.net Sun Mar 8 13:53:24 2020 From: tym2 at comcast.net (Dr. T. Y. McDowell) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 15:53:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1852942359.304667.1583697205035@connect.xfinity.com> Buck, Excellent historical data! Thanks! Tym McDowell > On March 8, 2020 at 2:30 PM Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: > > > The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. > > > > Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. > > > > Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. > > > > Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. > > > > After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement sportscar. > > > > The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. > > > > The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. > > > > Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger production. > > > > Buck Trippel > > > > > > From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ross Hulse via Tigers > Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM > To: Curt Bowland > Cc: tigers > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend > > > > The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well. The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car. So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada. Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a rumor. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/tym2 at comcast.net > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From coolvt at aol.com Sun Mar 8 14:25:14 2020 From: coolvt at aol.com (coolvt at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2020 20:25:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1723810247.1121772.1583699114438@mail.yahoo.com> Thank you. Best and most thorough explanation that I've seen.Mark L In a message dated 3/8/2020 2:30:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, tigers at autox.team.net writes: The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. ? Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. ? Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. ? Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. ? After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement sportscar. ? The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. ? The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. ? Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger production. ? Buck Trippel ? ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ross Hulse via Tigers Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend ? The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well.? The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car.? So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada.? Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a?rumor. _______________________________________________ tigers at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/coolvt at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rollright at aol.com Tue Mar 10 09:25:48 2020 From: rollright at aol.com (James Armstrong) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 15:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <809880212.1764179.1583853948345@mail.yahoo.com> Hello all, ? ??Sometime in the past, I stopped at a between-lanes restaurant and rest stop in central England, and spotted a delightful small sporty-looking fastback. This was a production car not a special.? ? Took a few pictures and ascertained that it was a Sunbeam Stiletto; an Imp-based fastback of sweet lines. I've never seen one in the U.S. but there are lots of pictures on the internet. ? ? Does anyone have one here in the U.S. ? Jim ArmstrongMk 1A382002083 LRXFECode 86TAC #.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rollright at aol.com Tue Mar 10 10:09:32 2020 From: rollright at aol.com (James Armstrong) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 16:09:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto In-Reply-To: <000e01d5f6f1$d71e3510$855a9f30$@mayfco.com> References: <809880212.1764179.1583853948345@mail.yahoo.com> <000e01d5f6f1$d71e3510$855a9f30$@mayfco.com> Message-ID: <1227733014.1798314.1583856572939@mail.yahoo.com> Mayf and all, Where to look for a 30 year old emulsion photo........ But try this link:? https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=A0geKeqaumdegtcAXUBpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?q=sunbeam+stiletto&v_t=loki-keyword#id=5&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Falexkcarblog.files.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F04%2Fsunbeam_stiletto.jpg&action=click Jim AIn a message dated 3/10/2020 11:37:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, drmayf at mayfco.com writes: Jim, post a photo or two for the rest of us if you can find yours? ? Mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump, NV ? From: Tigers [mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of James Armstrong via Tigers Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 8:26 AM To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto ? Hello all, ? ??Sometime in the past, I stopped at a between-lanes restaurant and rest stop in central England, and spotted a delightful small sporty-looking fastback. This was a production car not a special. ? ? Took a few pictures and ascertained that it was a Sunbeam Stiletto; an Imp-based fastback of sweet lines. I've never seen one in the U.S. but there are lots of pictures on the internet. ? ? Does anyone have one here in the U.S. ? Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE Code 86 TAC #.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From drmayf at mayfco.com Tue Mar 10 11:21:34 2020 From: drmayf at mayfco.com (Larry Mayfield) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:21:34 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto In-Reply-To: <1227733014.1798314.1583856572939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <809880212.1764179.1583853948345@mail.yahoo.com> <000e01d5f6f1$d71e3510$855a9f30$@mayfco.com> <1227733014.1798314.1583856572939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000001d5f700$5ba04b30$12e0e190$@mayfco.com> What gorgeous little critters! Any make it to our shores? LH drive? Looks like most are very well cared for by the owners. Thanks for sharing? mayf From: James Armstrong [mailto:rollright at aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:10 AM To: drmayf at mayfco.com; tigers at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto Mayf and all, Where to look for a 30 year old emulsion photo........ But try this link: https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=A0geKeqaumdegtcAXUBpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?q=sunbeam+stiletto &v_t=loki-keyword#id=5&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Falexkcarblog.files.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F04%2Fsunbeam_stiletto.jpg&action=click Jim A In a message dated 3/10/2020 11:37:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, drmayf at mayfco.com writes: Jim, post a photo or two for the rest of us if you can find yours? Mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump, NV From: Tigers [mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of James Armstrong via Tigers Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 8:26 AM To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto Hello all, Sometime in the past, I stopped at a between-lanes restaurant and rest stop in central England, and spotted a delightful small sporty-looking fastback. This was a production car not a special. Took a few pictures and ascertained that it was a Sunbeam Stiletto; an Imp-based fastback of sweet lines. I've never seen one in the U.S. but there are lots of pictures on the internet. Does anyone have one here in the U.S. ? Jim Armstrong Mk 1A 382002083 LRXFE Code 86 TAC #.... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From twojohnsons at cox.net Tue Mar 10 11:26:47 2020 From: twojohnsons at cox.net (Al) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 13:26:47 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto In-Reply-To: <000001d5f700$5ba04b30$12e0e190$@mayfco.com> References: <000001d5f700$5ba04b30$12e0e190$@mayfco.com> Message-ID: Ugh! Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2020, at 1:22 PM, Larry Mayfield via Tigers wrote: > > ? > What gorgeous little critters! Any make it to our shores? LH drive? Looks like most are very well cared for by the owners. > > Thanks for sharing? > > mayf > > From: James Armstrong [mailto:rollright at aol.com] > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 9:10 AM > To: drmayf at mayfco.com; tigers at autox.team.net > Subject: Re: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto > > Mayf and all, > > Where to look for a 30 year old emulsion photo........ > > But try this link: https://search.aol.com/aol/image;_ylt=A0geKeqaumdegtcAXUBpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByMDgyYjJiBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzYw--?q=sunbeam+stiletto&v_t=loki-keyword#id=5&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Falexkcarblog.files.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F04%2Fsunbeam_stiletto.jpg&action=click > > Jim A > In a message dated 3/10/2020 11:37:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, drmayf at mayfco.com writes: > > Jim, post a photo or two for the rest of us if you can find yours? > > > > Mayf, way off and far out in Pahrump, NV > > > > From: Tigers [mailto:tigers-bounces at autox.team.net] On Behalf Of James Armstrong via Tigers > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2020 8:26 AM > To: tigers at autox.team.net > Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto > > > > Hello all, > > > > Sometime in the past, I stopped at a between-lanes restaurant and rest stop in central England, and spotted a delightful small sporty-looking fastback. This was a production car not a special. > > Took a few pictures and ascertained that it was a Sunbeam Stiletto; an Imp-based fastback of sweet lines. I've never seen one in the U.S. but there are lots of pictures on the internet. > > Does anyone have one here in the U.S. ? > > > > Jim Armstrong > > Mk 1A > > 382002083 LRXFE > > Code 86 > > TAC #.... > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/twojohnsons at cox.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From atwittsend at verizon.net Tue Mar 10 11:38:59 2020 From: atwittsend at verizon.net (Tom Witt) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 10:38:59 -0700 Subject: [Tigers] Apex & Stilleto In-Reply-To: <809880212.1764179.1583853948345@mail.yahoo.com> References: <809880212.1764179.1583853948345@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1390dd19-edee-5994-6d10-ea240c25705f@verizon.net> I believe I have seen one of these at the "Queen's English" event in Van Nuys, Ca. But, it might have just been a regular Imp. Many Sunbeam-ers attend the event and maybe it can be kept in mind to look at the next event in a few months. To me the look of the Imp is similar to a 1st Gen. Corvair. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, - but I like them. On 3/10/2020 8:25 AM, James Armstrong via Tigers wrote: > Hello all, > > ? ??Sometime in the past, I stopped at a between-lanes restaurant and > rest stop in central England, and spotted a delightful small > sporty-looking fastback. This was a production car not a special. > ? ? Took a few pictures and ascertained that it was a Sunbeam > Stiletto; an Imp-based fastback of sweet lines. I've never seen one in > the U.S. but there are lots of pictures on the internet. > ? ? Does anyone have one here in the U.S. ? > > Jim Armstrong > Mk 1A > 382002083 LRXFE > Code 86 > TAC #.... > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/atwittsend at verizon.net > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ktisdale at ix.netcom.com Tue Mar 10 14:37:07 2020 From: ktisdale at ix.netcom.com (Ken) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 14:37:07 -0600 Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2d11fc2a-c78b-e4d3-9f39-85136989b943@ix.netcom.com> Very Lotus like! Ken On 3/8/2020 1:36 PM, Jay Laifman via Tigers wrote: > Wow.? Thanks Buck.? I've never heard of the Apex (at least that I can > remember).? Just did a search and came up with these great pictures > and info.? Love the hardtop! > > http://tardis.dl.ac.uk/Mercia/killeen_book/node13.html > > > > On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:30 AM Buck Trippel via Tigers > > wrote: > > The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was > discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth > papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert > Museum in Coventry. > > Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He > reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family > members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his > retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. > I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. > > Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger > represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just > a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in > board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated > the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built > was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with > upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck > calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the > resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke > the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing > issues. > > Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a > Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have > been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. > Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. > > After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed > control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller > sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had > been designed and was very close to production when a > sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its > fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement > sportscar. > > The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it > purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing > GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. > The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. > Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due > to low production volume. > > The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers > was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and > therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost > of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the > Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including > moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to > Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. > Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an > alternate contractor to build the cars. > > Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger > production. > > Buck Trippel > > *From:* Tigers > *On Behalf Of *Ross Hulse > via Tigers > *Sent:* Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM > *To:* Curt Bowland > > *Cc:* tigers > > *Subject:* Re: [Tigers] Urban legend > > The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very > well.? The USA import regs for cars would require expensive > modifications to the car.? So in February 1967 the decision was > made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to > Canada.? Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a > rumor. > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers > > http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: > http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jay.laifman at gmail.com > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > tigers at autox.team.net > > Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html > Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive > > Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/ktisdale at ix.netcom.com > > -- Ken Tisdale 303-807-5488 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maliburevue at yahoo.com Tue Mar 10 16:14:19 2020 From: maliburevue at yahoo.com (Gary) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2020 22:14:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Tigers] Urban legend In-Reply-To: References: <006201d5f577$9bac2080$d3046180$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <405023373.7488388.1583878459676@mail.yahoo.com> Not sure about the aerodynamics of that front end on the Apex. Looks like lots of lift at speed. Gary On Tuesday, March 10, 2020, 12:54:14 AM MDT, Jay Laifman via Tigers wrote: Wow.? Thanks Buck.? I've never heard of the Apex (at least that I can remember).? Just did a search and came up with these great pictures and info.? Love the hardtop! http://tardis.dl.ac.uk/Mercia/killeen_book/node13.html?? On Sun, Mar 8, 2020 at 11:30 AM Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: The best and most authoritative answers to the why the Tiger was discontinued that I?ve found are in the collection of Papworth papers housed in the Culture Coventry Archive at the Herbert Museum in Coventry. ? Mr Papworth was a very high level ?planner? for Rootes. He reported to a very select group, comprised mainly of family members who were the heart of the Rootes board. After his retirement he donated thousands(?) of pages of notes and memos. I?ve spent several days reading them and want to go back. ? Mr. Papworth lays out a very comprehensive Tiger story. The Tiger represented only 2% of Rootes? sales and was consequentially just a blip on management?s attention. Tigers were barely mentioned in board meetings as the high production Imps and Hillmans dominated the discussions. The Mk1s & 1As sold well. The Mk2 that was built was not the Mk2 that the engineers had designed and tested (with upgraded 5-bolt 14? wheels to fit 4-wheel discs, the same 3-puck calipers used on Aston Martins and street Cobras) and the resulting lack of initial sales seemed to be the straw that broke the camel?s back. But Papworth also outlines other contributing issues. ? Rootes engineers determined that Chrysler V8s would not fit in a Tiger. They explored alternatives including one that would have been built a new ?Tiger? with fiberglass body in the USA. Obviously none of those alternatives worked out. ? After Lord Rootes passed away his brother, Reggie, assumed control. Reggie wanted to replace the Alpine/Tiger with a smaller sportscar that was similar to a Spitfire. That car, ?Apex?, had been designed and was very close to production when a sub-contractor tripled the initial cost estimate for its fiberglass body. That ended Rootes? attempt at a replacement sportscar. ? The US government had long imposed standards for the cars it purchased for government use ? the GSA standards. These existing GSA standards were eventually adopted for all cars sold in the US. The Alpine/Tiger platform would have needed upgrades to comply. Tooling for these would have been costly on a per unit basis due to low production volume. ? The space used at Pressed Steel to build the Alpines and Tigers was needed by another Rootes vehicle which was high production and therefore a higher priority. Assuming Rootes would accept the cost of upgrades to comply with GSA standards, where could the Alpine/Tiger be built? Rootes looked at alternatives including moving the entire Alpine/Tiger production from Pressed Steel to Jensen. At one point Rootes even offered to purchase Jensen. Jensen refused. The move never happened. Rootes never found an alternate contractor to build the cars. ? Papworth cites all of these factors in the decision to end Tiger production. ? Buck Trippel ? From: Tigers On Behalf Of Ross Hulse via Tigers Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2020 1:57 AM To: Curt Bowland Cc: tigers Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend ? The demise of the Sunbeam Tiger was that they did not sell very well.? The USA import regs for cars would require expensive modifications to the car.? So in February 1967 the decision was made to finish the cars that were in the line and send them to Canada.? Everything about not fitting a Chrysler engine is just a?rumor.? ? _______________________________________________ tigers at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/jay.laifman at gmail.com _______________________________________________ tigers at autox.team.net Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive Unsubscribe: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/tigers/maliburevue at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jimdamelio at verizon.net Wed Mar 11 17:15:13 2020 From: jimdamelio at verizon.net (jimdamelio) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2020 19:15:13 -0400 Subject: [Tigers] LAT 15 Tiger Flags In-Reply-To: <94673577-c165-1424-ffa4-98e2aff2c025@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Finally got around to framing and hanging my LAT flags in the garage. Thought I would share a picture of them with the group.? I was lucky to get these years ago when Yahoo had auctions.? They are used and not perfect. Wonder how many others survived.Jim DSent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone. -------- Original message --------From: Ken via Tigers Date: 3/8/20 4:39 PM (GMT-05:00) To: tigers at autox.team.net Subject: Re: [Tigers] Urban legend Thank you Buck for settling this matter. Wish that I could spend time going through the archives! Ken Tisdale On 3/8/2020 12:30 PM, Buck Trippel via Tigers wrote: