[TR] Travel and tuning question

Thu Dec 8 12:26:38 MST 2022

That is great stuff, thanks John.  The Sprite/Spitfire competition must
have been pretty fierce, there were possibilities for improving the Sprite
too, like using the Cooper S version of the 1275 A series.  But that would
have made the Sprite as quick or quicker than a Spitfire but also as fast
or faster than an MGB, and of course the car would have been more
expensive.  They always built the cars to a price didn't they? Fun to think
of what might have been, and also fun to cobble up our own modern versions
of the factory hot rods.

Greg Lemon

On Thu, Dec 8, 2022, 12:20 PM <johnbmacartney at gmx.com> wrote:

> Hi, Dave,
>
>
>
> Very few, if any of the Experimental Engineers made it into the public and
> enthusiast’s eye except for one or two – and they were mainly known only in
> the UK. Sadly, all but one of them are now fixing Heralds in heaven. One of
> them was the late Ray Henderson from the Experimental Department. A lovely,
> unassuming man who was a brilliant engineer of the old school and who could
> turn his hand to fixing the impossible miles from anywhere, told me many
> stories of his experiences. Ray undertook quite a number of trips in
> development cars to far flung destinations and the one about which he was
> the most critical was being one of the crew that drove two or three Heralds
> (pre-launch versions) from Cape Town in South Africa to London. The book of
> that trip was called “Turn Left at Tangier” though I don’t think Ray
> provided much of the input to it being written. If he had, it’s likely he’d
> have either lost his job or been seriously disciplined on his return. He
> was scathing in the extreme about the whole venture and highly critical of
> the Company for even suggesting the exercise in the first place. In Ray’s
> view – which I think was shared by all those who went with him on the trip,
> was that the cars were totally unsuited to the journey they made and it’s a
> tribute to Ray and his colleagues that they actually managed to get the
> cars back, so badly were they damaged by the appalling so-called roads and
> no roads at all in crossing the Sahara desert. Apart from the unsuitability
> of the chosen route, none of those who took part were given any kind of
> training or pre-run preparation in terms of the types of terrain, culture,
> language, don’t-do’s etc that they would encounter, the very real dangers
> that faced them in going through certain countries where the white man
> definitely was not wanted, through training in basic medicine and first
> aid, treating colleagues for scorpion attacks or snake bite and damn all in
> terms of carrying appropriate medical kits on all the vehicles. As I
> recall, there were three Heralds, one Vanguard estate car and a Standard
> Atlas van with about one and a half tons of parts, tools, fuel, water and
> camping kit – and just one 948cc engine to drive it!!!!! Ray told me that
> each Herald required at least three rear suspension rebuilds en-route,
> several clutch changes and two or three major gearbox failures! I can’t
> recall the details now, but there were so many driveshaft, rear wheel
> carriers and other vital parts failures, that several more were
> air-freighted out to Nigeria in the hope of getting the cars home. I do
> know all the cars were re-fitted in Lagos, Nigeria with locally made
> radiators that didn’t break or crack as a result of vibration. Having spent
> a lot of time in Africa myself, I know what their roads can do and I have a
> lot of respect for local tradespeople on street corners who can do truly
> amazing things in repairing something that looks smashed beyond repair.
> Anyway, when they finally got to Coventry, all the men who had taken part
> in the event, were publicly castigated by Harry Webster, the Director of
> Engineering for submitting trip reports that were critical of a number of
> Webster-inspired features on the Herald in particular. Ray summarised that
> event as “the journey through hell” and he was very critical of Alick Dick
> (Standard-Triumph’s CEO) and Frank Higham (Sales Director) for abdicating
> the company’s duty of care to employees in sending that team of men on what
> they felt was a dangerous and ill thought-out expedition in cars that were
> totally unsuited to that sort of travel in such conditions.
>
> Another of Ray’s unique contributions was the creation of a Spitfire whose
> roadholding was far better than the Sprite/Midget in standard spec. It was
> so good that Webster insisted it should be put in the crusher and the
> concept forgotten. Basically, Ray modified a Spitfire taken off the line,
> substantially reinforced the rear part of the bodyshell and re-equipped the
> car with semi-trailing arms and coil springs as per the TR4A but using
> parts from the Triumph 1300 front wheel drive car. Ray did that conversion,
> on his own, in the Engineering workshop in just three weeks – and without
> any drawings at all! It was all done on “if it looks right, it’ll probably
> be right – and it was. That car was so good it **ought** to have gone
> into production but the costs that would have been incurred in completely
> re-jigging the chassis and doing major work in re-designing and
> strengthening the body tub would have put another GBP50 (@ 1966 values)  on
> the manufacturing cost of the car. Such a cost would have translated to an
> extra GBP250 at retail – and Webster claimed (perhaps correctly?) that this
> would price the Spitfire out of the market and make the Spridget the
> favoured car for its price, so he threw the whole idea out. A terrible
> shame in its way. All those (few) who drove the car – apart from Webster,
> were unanimous it was the way the Spitfire should have been designed from
> the start and leading that argument was the Company’s chief test driver!
>
> So, a little bit of ‘behind the scenes’ history for those who are
> interested. Apologies for taking up space they may not interest most people.
>
>
>
> Jonmac
>
>
>
> *From:* Dave Connitt <dconnitt at fuse.net>
> *Sent:* 06 December 2022 14:04
> *To:* johnbmacartney at gmx.com
> *Cc:* Rye Livingston <ryel at mac.com>; stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org;
> Randy and Valerie DeRuiter <deruiterville at hotmail.com>; Triumphs <
> triumphs at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [TR] Travel and tuning question
>
>
>
> That’s interesting Jonmac,
>
> Did any of those shows ever discuss how the drivers handled the altitude?
> Asking for a friend, LOL.
>
> Dave Connitt
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 6, 2022, at 4:12 AM, johnbmacartney at gmx.com wrote:
>
> 
>
> Back in the day – like fifty plus years ago, all the larger UK car makers
> undertook extensive altitude testing on all their cars. Favourite locations
> were Europe, Scandinavia, Canadian Rockies, the Andes and Iran before the
> Shah was deposed. Lots of Pike’s Peak equivalent places in some of those
> locations and this sort of testing is something many enthusiasts don’t take
> on board.
>
>
>
> Jonmac
>
>
>
> *From:* Rye Livingston <ryel at mac.com>
> *Sent:* 05 December 2022 19:22
> *To:* johnbmacartney at gmx.com
> *Cc:* stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org; Dave Connitt <dconnitt at fuse.net>;
> Randy and Valerie DeRuiter <deruiterville at hotmail.com>; Triumphs <
> triumphs at autox.team.net>
> *Subject:* Re: [TR] Travel and tuning question
>
>
>
> Before the pandemic I drove my TR3 from sea level in California, to
> Flagstaff Arizona, just shy of 7000’, for Triumphest.  On the way home we
> drove over Tioga Pass going into Yosemite at 9,945 feet.  I didn’t adjust
> anything and it ran well.
>
>
>
> Rye
>
>
>
> <image001.jpg>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 4, 2022, at 2:37 AM, johnbmacartney at gmx.com wrote:
>
>
>
> Agreed. I don’t recall either of those Stags suffering fuel starvation or
> 'altitude' sickness. One on SU's, the other on Strombergs. Must admit I was
> glad when we did the descent as the altitude was doing me no good at all.
> That said, a great drive in both directions, a fine day and an amazing view
> at the summit.
>
> jonmac
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org <stagbytriumph at triumphstagclub.org>
>
> Sent: 02 December 2022 21:34
> To: 'Dave Connitt' <dconnitt at fuse.net>; 'Randy and Valerie DeRuiter' <
> deruiterville at hotmail.com>
> Cc: 'Triumphs' <triumphs at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [TR] Travel and tuning question
>
> I hear there are a lot of "'deer" on top of Pikes Peak at various times!
>
> Glenn aka StagByTriumph
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Triumphs <triumphs-bounces at autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Dave Connitt
> Sent: Friday, December 2, 2022 10:45 AM
> To: Randy and Valerie DeRuiter <deruiterville at hotmail.com>
> Cc: Triumphs <triumphs at autox.team.net>
> Subject: Re: [TR] Travel and tuning question
>
> Thanks for the tip Randy!
> Yea, the trip to Pikes Peak started from a conversation with some TriState
> Triumph people at lunch after one of our “spirited drives”. The trip up
> Pikes Peak was a bucket list goal of one of the couples. I asked my wife if
> she wanted to go too and after saying yes, she suggested that since we will
> be out west why not see some other sites? We’re both retired so there’s no
> hurry getting back home. There’s about 8 of us going to Pikes Peak so far.
> I haven’t mentioned our extended trip to the group yet but some of them may
> want to go with us instead of driving straight back to Cinci.
>
> Thanks again for the electric fuel pump idea!!
> Tha car is already up on the QuckJack😁.
> Dave and Colleen Connitt
> FOG 51
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2022, at 11:56 AM, Randy and Valerie DeRuiter <
> deruiterville at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dave
>
> Sounds like a great trip - I didn’t make the last tour with my other FOG
> buddies but when they went through the Rockies the #1 issue at altitude was
> the mechanical fuel pump cavitating due to ethanol gas we think.  A couple
> guys on the trip hooked up temporary electric pumps and had no issue - no
> carb adjustments were made for any of them.
>
> Randy
> FOG37
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
>
> On Dec 2, 2022, at 10:15 AM, Dave Connitt <dconnitt at fuse.net> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> This coming summer my wife and I are planning a fairly long trip in my
> TR4A  leaving from Cincinnati, Ohio (altitude approximately 500’). Our
> first destination is going to be Colorado Springs, Co. to drive up Pikes
> Peak (altitude approximately 14,115’). Then north to Mt. Rushmore (altitude
> approximately 5,700’), then north to drive through Yellowstone national
> park (altitude approximately 9,200’). That’s going to be quite a swing in
> altitude and I am wondering if I will have to occasionally tune the SU HS-6
> carbs? Has anyone on the list done a similar drive? If so, how did your
> Triumph run and what did you have to adjust?
> Thanks in advance!
> Dave Connitt
> ‘67 TR4A-IRS
> DavesTR4A.com
>
> Sent from my iPhone
> ** triumphs at autox.team.net **
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