[Zmagnette] 4 synchro MGB trans in ZB

Sun Dec 1 21:03:34 MST 2013

Arch,

Those notes may be really useful for the Magnette Technical website.  Are
you happy to liaise with Stephen Tickell on this?

Kind regards,

David

On 2 December 2013 12:42, Arch Boston <arch.boston at twc.com> wrote:

> Somewhere around here I have notes from Dave Liveley? giving directions
> for a DIY 5 speed conversion.  If anyone is interested I will try to find
> the notes.  His directions were rather complete.  Strange that no
> transmission made in this century can be utilized. Arch
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Dec 1, 2013, at 8:09 PM, David Halliday <davidh at egopharm.com> wrote:
>
> I can wholeheartedly recommend the Hi Gear conversion with the Ford type 9
> gearbox.  It is a great conversion.  It fits easily, with very little in
> the way of mods and looks stock from the interior.
>
> I just drove my original and standard ZB yesterday.  I really miss that
> 5th gear and syncro on 1st and 2nd!
>
> Kind regards,
>
> David
>
>
>
> On 30 November 2013 02:49, Wayne & Isabel Hardy <gwhardy at suddenlink.net>wrote:
>
>>   Just a short comment on Rivergate kits again..I have experience with a
>> 210 tranny in a Midget. Neat little installation, requires only a couple
>> stout smacks on the tunnel side so as to allow removal of the side located
>> tranny oil check plug. You could if you wanted also use a hole saw clear
>> through and check the level through the side from the inside of the cockpit
>> but don’t need to. Gear selector comes out pretty much exactly where the
>> old one did, and gears 1-3 are almost exactly the same as the Midget box,
>> 4th is direct drive 1 : 1 ratio, and 5th is ease it on down the road gear
>> for freeway use...especially if you have already gone to a 3.9 : 1 rear as
>> I did. It gets about 45 mpg in 5th overdrive at 70 MPH, at about 2300 rpm;
>> and 1st syncro is sure nice too. Very nice kit.
>>
>> Wombat
>>
>>  *From:* Allen Bachelder <bachldrs at comcast.net>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 27, 2013 3:40 PM
>> *To:* List for the Z Magnette Group - North America<zmagnette at autox.team.net>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Zmagnette] 4 synchro MGB trans in ZB
>>
>> Mike and Charles,
>>
>> Yeah,  I can imagine that a 3.9 on a 1500 would present quite a challenge
>> on Lombard Hill!  I guess my consideration of rear gears presumed the 1800
>> was already in the picture.
>>
>> I forgot to point this out but in the third picture I sent, you can see
>> I've moved the handbrake back about 1.5". This is not difficult at all -
>> there's plenty of room to take up that much slack in the cable.  Also note
>> that I tilted the lever up a bit on it's front bracket.  It clears the
>> tower nicely. Regarding the 200SX or 240SX transmissions, the 280Z was
>> Rivergate's choice and their kit will not fit the others. They liked the
>> extreme durability of the 280Z - as it was designed to handle the
>> six-cylinder engine.  They do have kits designed to fit the 210 five-speed
>> to "A block" engines. Designed for Spridgets, I believe they also adapt
>> well in Morris Minors. I keep my eye out for these on occasion and have
>> dreams of my own MM 4-door with a 1275, a Rivergate/210 five-speed, a
>> Spridget 3.9 diff, and Spridget discs up front.  The trick is to FiND a 210
>> 5-speed. And for that matter, the 280Z 5-speeds are drying up also.  BTW,
>> there is some activity in the BW T5 bull pen.  We may have another option
>> before long.  Hopefully somebody who knows more than I will speak to this.
>>
>> I still hold with the opinion that the non-od MGB 4-synch would be more
>> trouble to install than a Hi-Gear or a Datsun and give you very little
>> return for your money and effort.  It would be nice to capitalize on that
>> free one you have - except bear in mind that your freeby is the 2nd-most
>> worthless part on an MGB, the most worthless part on an MGB being a 3sync
>> non-od transmission.  If you advertised to MGB guys that you were currently
>> accepting 4-sync non-od drop-offs, your front yard would be full by
>> morning. Keeping one or two and tearing them down for parts makes some
>> sense as the internals can be used in rebuilding od boxes.  I gave away
>> four of them about two years ago. I have one "spare" 4-sync od box that
>> I'll will to one of my kids someday. The other kid will get the house and
>> everything that's in the bank.
>>
>> Regarding shifter location, I think that problem can be solved pretty
>> easily - since the Rivergate/Datsun brings it's shifter up right in the MGB
>> 4-sync opening. Ergo, if the Rivergate/Datsun shifter requires about a 2"
>> rearward expansion in the Magnette tunnel, the 4-sync MGB shifter would
>> require about the same. I'm pretty sure it would be doable. ' Wonder if
>> anybody's tried this with a Triumph TR6 box.  After all, a Triumph has to
>> be good for something...  ;-)  ;-)  ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Allen
>>   ******************************************************************
>>
>> *Allen & Florrie Bachelder       =iii=<Spring Creek Home for Wayward MGs*
>> *'57 ZB, '65 B, '69 C/GT, '73 B/GT*
>> *North Street, MI 48049, USA*
>> *http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs
>> <http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs>*
>>
>> ******************************************************************
>>
>>  On Nov 27, 2013, at 2:22 PM, charles durning wrote:
>>
>>  Allen,
>>
>> Thanks for the response.  I'm not intending on using a MGB OD
>> transmission just the NON OD trans that came with the engine.  My concern
>> was with the location of the shifter.  I'm thinking that with a little
>> fabrication I can relocate the shift lever in the opening for the remote
>> control.  I might even be able to adapt the Magnette lever there.  I'll
>> compare the 2 when I get it out sometime in the future.
>>
>> A friend has a used Ford Sierra trans and the adaptor parts he removed
>> from a wrecked MGB.  It's FREE.  I looked it over and it looks like the
>> sfift lever would interfere with the parking brake lever also.  It looks
>> like a major job to relocate the shift lever on that trans.  I would use it
>> if I can work out relocating the shift lever.
>>
>> Frankly I would be happy with a 4 speed, that's why I would consider
>> using the NON OD MGB 4 synchro trans that came with the engine.  I could
>> keep the 3 synchro trans it would be easy enough to adapt to the 5 mb
>> engine.
>>
>> BTW I did some looking around and it looks like the trans from a Datsun
>> 200SX or 240SX would put the shifter in the right place.
>>
>> Charlie Durning
>>
>> If you are using Google or Gmail, Big Brother is watching.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:05 PM, Allen Bachelder <bachldrs at comcast.net>wrote:
>>
>>> As far as I know, the cheapest way to do this is with the Datsun 280Z
>>> five-speed (it has a "Z" in it!) and a Rivergate kit.  I've done it on two
>>> different Magnettes.  The kit is designed for an MGB so there is a bit of
>>> fabrication necessary - but it isn't rocket science.  The bit in question
>>> is the transmission mount. The Hi-Gear Ford Sierra kit is available from
>>> either Moss or Bruce Woodson and I understand there is a purpose-built
>>> version for the Magnette.
>>>
>>> Having done the Datsun/Rivergate option, I can say that it is pretty
>>> darn easy.  The pictures show the only modifications done to the car.  Bear
>>> in mind that the PO had converted the car to the Datsun transmission with a
>>> kit homemade by his mechanic. The second picture shows how much material
>>> was removed from the back of the shifter opening.  In fact, this is more
>>> than necessary, but the third picture shows how I dealt with it.  I chose
>>> not to weld the new tunnel patch in case a future owner wants to reverse
>>> the conversion.  In this sense, in answer to frequent criticism, by using a
>>> Japanese transmission, I actually preserved more original MG than I would
>>> have with an MG transmission. Another advantage to this approach is that
>>> the old Magnette drive shaft still fits - requiring only that the front
>>> U-joint yoke be reamed slightly to fit the Datsun U-joint which of course
>>> has it's own front yoke and transmission spline.
>>>
>>> If I recall correctly, I used an early MGB shift-lever boot.   I did
>>> rework the flange of the shift-lever tower with a body hammer to fit its
>>> new location. The PO didn't use a tower at all.
>>>
>>> One more thought.  If you're undecided about the transmission choice,
>>> first try replacing your original 4.55 differential gear set with a 4.3, a
>>> 4.1 (if you can find one), or a 3.9.  This is an easy two-hour job. You
>>> might find that even with the original gearbox, you're happy with the
>>> higher-geared rear end. It's interesting that the two ZAs I rode in while
>>> visiting the UK were both the earliest 4.87 rear-end types, and while we
>>> never went on the "M roads" with them (equivalent to our interstates), they
>>> seemed remarkably unstressed.  For awhile there, I started wondering why I
>>> had gone to all this effort.  But then I get on the I-69 here in Michigan
>>> with its 70 mph speed limit and I'm sure happy to have my 5th gear, along
>>> with the 3.9, giving me 25 mph per 1,000 rpm.
>>>
>>> FWIW,
>>> Allen
>>>   ******************************************************************
>>>
>>> *Allen & Florrie Bachelder       =iii=<Spring Creek Home for Wayward MGs*
>>> *'57 ZB, '65 B, '69 C/GT, '73 B/GT*
>>> *North Street, MI 48049, USA*
>>> *http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs
>>> <http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs>*
>>>
>>> ******************************************************************
>>>
>>>  On Nov 27, 2013, at 12:42 AM, Steve C. wrote:
>>>
>>>  As Steve K states I installed a 4 syncro overdrive many years ago in
>>> my ZA. I would not even consider doing so today. The 5 speed kits are so
>>> much easier to do. The come with everything you need and require almost no
>>> modifications to the car. To install the late over drive you need to build
>>> a rear transmission mount, a transmission tunnel, drive shaft, speedo gear
>>> box and cable. Then deal with the starter hitting the frame and making a
>>> clutch hydraulic line. I also did some mods to the shift tower, but do not
>>> remember exactly what. I think that covers it all.
>>> --
>>> Sent from my Android phone with mail.com Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>>
>>> Steve Kirby <skirby210 at cox.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is not my place to answer this, and it is further not my place to
>>>> offer up this answer, but I will anyway!  One of my first, of many,
>>>> mentors, in the Magnette World was Steve Carroll . . . he of thee superb
>>>> header set up many of us have purchased.  Steve did put a full late B
>>>> synchro in his.  I do remember Steve describing the various things he had
>>>> to do.  Steve is a person of immense talents, so his pay grade is much
>>>> higher than mine.  Perhaps Steve will answer, now that I've prodded him a
>>>> bit, or Charlie can contact him directly.
>>>>
>>>> #2SteveK
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> *From:* LannM at aol.com
>>>> *To:* zmagnette at autox.team.net
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 26, 2013 8:29 AM
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Zmagnette] 4 synchro MGB trans in ZB
>>>>
>>>> Shifter location aside, the 4 sync is wider than the 3 sync.  Compare a
>>>> 3 sync MGB with a 4 sync.  The transmission tunnel is noticeably
>>>> different.  I've put a 4 sync in and early MGB and it takes a lot of work
>>>> with a BIG hammer to move sheet metal around.  Even then, its still a tight
>>>> fit.  I can't imagine a Magnette would be any easier.
>>>>
>>>> I think Allen is right, a Hi-Gear 5 speed would be quicker, easier, and
>>>> probably cheaper.
>>>>
>>>> Lann
>>>>
>>>>  In a message dated 11/26/2013 10:19:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,
>>>> durningcharles at gmail.com writes:
>>>>
>>>> Robert,
>>>>
>>>> I didn't think that even modifying the remote would work.  It would
>>>> still be too far back, not to mention the height.  I was thinking about
>>>> eleminating the remote and mounting the shifter directly to the opening on
>>>> the trans where the remote attaches.  I still have to get under the car and
>>>> do some measuring to see if that would be close.
>>>>
>>>> It would be good if some BMC car used the 4 synchro trans with a direct
>>>> shifter.  That would keep me from having to make something.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Charlie Durning
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:58 AM, <monster at caverock.net.nz> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.beardmorebros.co.uk/website%20pages/Dads_Oxford.html
>>>>>
>>>>> On the above page are some photos and a description of fitting an MGB
>>>>> engine and 4-synchro+overdrive 'box to a 1960's Farina Oxford.
>>>>> It includes a pic of shortening the remote gearlever extension to fit,
>>>>> and a new tunnel.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd agree that the benefits of non-OD box over all the mods needed for
>>>>> a 3-synchro box might not be great.
>>>>> I also love the sound of the non-synchro 1st gear. Bah, musicians, eh?
>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> regards,
>>>>> --
>>>>> Robert
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26.11.2013 15:50, Allen Bachelder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Charlie,
>>>>>> Even without overdrive, the remote shifter on the MGB 4-sync sits
>>>>>> high and your going to have to substantially reshape the transmission
>>>>>> tunnel to make it fit. That's a ferocious price to pay for a
>>>>>> synchronized first gear. If you're going to that much trouble, you
>>>>>> might as well go five-speed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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