[Zmagnette] Preservation

Tue Jan 28 04:46:54 MST 2014

I have to add one comment to “show” cars presentation...A few years back, shortly after getting our present ZB on the road again and going to shows and MG functions, we were headed to the Texas MG Register gathering out in Waco TX, the home of Baylor U. AND home to the Dr. Pepper drink. Anyhow as a part of this first big showing, we invited over from Nashville, the car’s second ever owner, and daughter of the original purchaser and owner, located through computer search of names listed on old registrations. We sent this lady an airplane ticket, got her a room in the convention hotel, and here she came. She was first off pleased that the car was back in great working order and looking good, as she always had an affection for this little car. Her father had given it to her after 10 years of service as the family sedan, (and about 110,XXX miles) and she had driven it as family car then later as fun car for another 9 or 10 years and a second motor rebuild..the Dad had done a Gold seal replacement motor installation by the dealer for her when she became the owner.
She ran the driving events , went to the dinners, hung in the bar with us and all the MGers and on show day she stayed with the car all morning in the show field and told everyone about it’s earlier history with a couple of neat pictures to back it up..one, the day the car was new, and she and sisters were picked up at school in England in the ZB. 
Well no question about it, we won the favorite car of the show, as well as best in our class, (there’s that MG Variant again), but all of this was in my mind attributed to the presence of this lady who had been a part of the little car’s first 20+ years. She stood with us when we got our trophy too so as to be in club pics.
So the moral is...I don’t know what!!! We just seemed to make a big impression on the other folks at the gathering, when all we had in mind was having some fun. Certainly no one else at this Gathering of the Faithful, had a previous owner as an accessory for their car from 1958.
On that basis I try only to add or change things that I might have done in period, and not do much updating. Such as spending a lot od time and too much $$$$ for a real 1958-59 period Blaupunkt 3 band radio of the type that would have been installed as a sounds upgrade in 1958. Yep it plays, but the old car speaker should have been changed...It’s getting pretty “crispy” now. 
Boy I wish I could find some real Michelin XZX tires from other than Coker’s Tire place, because these were always a popular add on option at the dealers around Houston at the time. Change to the XZXs for about $10.00 per tire when new was a bargain and a plus in the driving fun dept. too.

Wombat (the windy one)

From: Steve Kirby 
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2014 9:56 AM
To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America 
Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Preservation

very good points.  I'm reminded of a guy I met, about 402,401 levels over my pay grade, who participates in the "real" classic car scene.  He told me, with a slight smile on his face, that the car is not original if it doesn't have the orig air in the tires/tyres!  But, on the next part he was serious.  He said that when they type up their litttle "bio" sheets on the car, they find paper from 1932 (or whatever year), and a typewriter from that era to type it out.  He didn't mention the ribbon . . . .  Ask me?  That's insanity, but I guess that's the kind of thing it takes to win, in those circles.

#2SteveK
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Allen Bachelder 
  To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America 
  Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 10:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Preservation

  I see my "Geraldine" has already come up in this discussion, and I thank you for the kind remarks.

  Sometimes the choice is made for us.  Depends on the car that ends up in our hands.  "Geraldine" came to me in Ivory over Damask Red, but her chassis number reads "KATT....."  Yup, that means she was originally a MONOTONE Varitone - seafoam green all over.  For that reason alone, she was no candidate for originality.  The only way to return to original color  was to repaint her.  A complete repaint in a "surviver" class? I think not. Then she already had an 1800/5-speed.  That was a big part of the attraction.  Only after getting her home did I discover what a botch-job that was.  So there I was with no original engine, and no original transmission.  But much as the 5-speed conversion had been botched, the engine had been very-well rebuilt. And then there was the upholstery - well-worn burgundy velvet. Does the word "pimp" come to mind?  So, for me, restoration was the only route - but then there's that third choice that Steve T wasn't expecting: even while restoring, do you go totally original or modify to taste.  I think folks at most "people's choice" shows seem to have a slight preference for original restorations.  If you modify, overall, your car needs to be all the better to win over equally nice originals. That's just a theory, mind you.  I've lost in some shows because some folks didn't care for my mods. 

  Beyond that, despite the fact that my paint job (AFTER I did all the rust repair myself!!!) cost more than my first house, I am detail-challenged, and what's more, I drive my cars.  "Geraldine" will inevitably deteriorate at least some in the oncoming years.  And I have to accept the fact that my temperament and my driving habits have a price, and that's OK.  It has to be - otherwise I just won't enjoy the car as much as I could.  

  Given an original car worth saving, I think I would save it.  But hey, let's consider what a truly original car would be: 

    It would have four badly split and rotted bias-ply tyres.
    All rubber window trim would be cracked, broken, and hard as a rock.
    All hoses would be perished
    Wiring insulation would be hardened and cracked
    All bullet connectors would be oxidized 
    Battery would be dead and dried out...
    Do you get the point?

  OK, so I'm being facetious, but if we're proposing guidelines for judging the barn-find classes, you can't simply give the trophy to the most original car. Now, how crazy is it - really - to see somebody gently prodding an original car on original tyres out of a trailer and onto the showfield.  We might be impressed as h*ll with those original tyres in a remarkable state of preservation, but I don't think Steve Trovato should DRIVE his car to the show and on to the field to get beaten by a car like that. 

  So, realistically, the answer has to be that the ideal survivor car is one that has been properly maintained so as to maintain its usefulness over the years.  It may have received even some major repairs - but only as necessary to keep the car reliable and useful.  For example, I think we all agree that Grant Howlett has the most beautiful unrestored Magnette on the planet.  Yet Grant's  "Lord Peter" required an engine rebuild after not much more than it's first 50 years.  But who could argue that it is no longer original? If it isn't, what is it???  It's certainly NOT restored!   I would suggest that an engine rebuild every 50 years or so might be considered routine maintenance.   

  Pardon my verbosity, but I'm trying to address another concern Steve T brought up: the lack of any viable recognition in the NAMGAR "preservation class".  Granted, we don't have to come home with a trophy in order to enjoy a show or GT, but there's no metabolism in a "display only" class. Whether you expect to win anything or not, it's a lot more fun when you know your class is being judged - by the people, or whatever.  

  I suggest that for the benefit of all "preservation class" participants - not just Magnettes - that we should propose a set of criteria for judging these cars, and furthermore, I would propose that this be done by a team of judges.  We are never going to agree, even just within ZMG, on what those criteria should be, but I think we, and NAMGAR, could agree on criteria that would probably garner just about everybody's approval. Folks would enter their cars in the preservation class, knowing in advance what the criteria are. Some would grumble - so what's new? Criteria can be revisited from time to time anyway.  

  It's really only in attempting to apply criteria, that we figure out what they really are.  Last year at Asheville, Steve, I remember hearing somebody saying that he'd rather have your car than all the rest put together.  So there are people out there who really appreciate what you are doing. 

  Beyond these considerations, I wholeheartedly agree with those who say "it's your car; do what you want with it".  While treading on one of the dearest friendships one can hope for in life, I need give an example of my point of view regarding the aforementioned Millicent Rose.  MR strikes me as a strong candidate for preservation.  OK, so she needs repair to her upholstery. So, I might argue, repair it.  She will be a little less original - but simply a little more maintained (a la Lord Peter).  OTOH, I think I know MR's owner to be a man who is passionate about achieving excellence with his own hands. Whether it's rebuilding the transmission, painting the car, or refinishing the dash, here resides a manually-expressed creativity that simply cannot be satisfied in any other way.  Ultimately, we as owners are more important that the stuff with which we work.  Whatever our answer to Steve T.'s dilemma is, that answer has to take into account that we are all individuals with individual reasons for being in the hobby.  

  The one conclusion I can come to is that NAMGAR needs to reward those in the "preservation class" - or that class will die out.  Even folks who are genuinely disinterested in trophies do enjoy participating in a process that recognizes excellence.  Their cars do set the standard.

  And it's time to quit.  You might think that Bachelder guy doesn't have enough to do. And right now, that's true.  It's too cold out to heat my shop, and I'm about 75% retired - so what's left?  You just got it...

  Cheers,
  Allen

  **************************************************************** 
  Allen & Florrie Bachelder       =iii=<
  Spring Creek Home for Wayward MGs
  '57 ZB, '65 B, '69 C/GT, '73 B/GT
  North Street, MI 48049, USA
  http://www.mgexperience.net/member/bachldrs 
  ****************************************************************

  On Jan 26, 2014, at 10:26 PM, Steve Kirby wrote:

    I'm so torn with this same question.  I've bored most of you with the story of the orig owner, early ZA I have: "Millicent Rose".

    Gosh, what I'd love to do is save the back seat and back door panels, cuz they are so darn near perfectly original, and I know the leather could be preserved with all that wonderful stuff.  Even the front door panels are very, very preservable.  The interior is that green color.  It's "sooooooooooo" 50's English Magnette, and a big part of me loves it, simply cuz it is so original.  The car is black, and again, I love the originality, but frankly, a black car and the green interior . . . . ahhhhh, truthfully, (to quote Wray Lemke) " . . . not my cuppa tea" . . . not in blazing hot weather like we have around here.  Then, there's the front seats, which are totally shredded and beyond anyone's preservation abilities.  The material is simply gone, and the insides are now outsides.  So, I suppose I could replace the front seats in matching old leather, dyed to match . . . .but alas, then it's not original anymore . . . is it?

    Likewise, the carpets are history . . . they have to be replaced.  Again, then it's not original anymore.  "It's only original once", I've heard.  Then, there's the headliner.  Not a rip or tear or stain in it.  BUT . . . dear Mrs. Millicent Rose Thompson must have smoked about 85 million cases of cigarettes inside the poor thing, and I literally can not stand to even briefly sit inside of it.  So, that headliner absolutely has to go . . . and who knows what else to get rid of the wreak of cigarette smoke . . . I guess you gathered I'm a non-smoker :)))  Again, it's no longer original, and that headliner, together with the seats and carpet and "NON negotiable".

    The overall black paint is pretty much in good shape . . . except for a few spots, which I suppose I could just ignore, along with dings in the front wings . . . suppose I could repair and spot paint just those?

    Then, the engine . . . which was out of the car when I bought it, and obviously wasn't removed just for exercise.  The engine bay shows some "bodging".  Now we have to back up a bit too.  Prior to getting "Millicent Rose", I'd already bought 2 gals (and the hardener and the reducer) of a sort of  Midnight Blue type color paint, to paint the ZB I was originally going to restore, along with new, from Lou, macrame front door pulls, in a biscuit color . . . 'cuz that's the color we wanted for the interior of that "first" car.  Oh, and the Rivergate kit to go with the Nissan 5 speed is already sitting here, along with Allen's 1800 adapter plate. 

    So, should I "eat" all that, and keep "Milicent" stock.  My unbelievable, super supportive wife even said "So, do the original car with all the upgrades, and the color we want (blue, biscuit interior), and then preserve the other one!"  Wow, some bride eh?  T'was I who actually said something like "Not gonna happen".  Takes me about 5 years to do a car.  I could be block sanding in my casket at that rate.

    So thanks Steven for bringing this up.  I'm enjoying the responses so far.  My mind is made up, and I know there are others who will vehemently disagree with my decision, but in the end, ya know what?  It's our car!  I'm not doing all this to please a few folks at the next car show or GT or whatever.  We'll never make everyone happy, but if my bride likes it, I will be pleased.

    #2SteveK

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Steven Trovato
      To: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America ; List for the Z Magnette Group - North America
      Cc: List for the Z Magnette Group - North America
      Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2014 6:07 PM
      Subject: Re: [Zmagnette] Preservation

      Phil,

      Yes, I do plan to do what pleases me.  I am not a slave to the 
      opinions of others, but I am interested in the thoughts of people I 
      respect.  I have no plans for a full restoration at this time.  I am 
      going to keep driving my car and enjoying it.  I'm not really looking 
      for votes on what I should do.  I am interested in hearing what 
      people think of this trend in general.  I am also interested in 
      learning more techniques and strategies for owning and maintaining a 
      car with a preservation attitude.

      -Steve T.

      At 08:53 PM 1/26/2014, mg1948 at verizon.net wrote:
      >The question I think you should ask yourself is "What do I want and 
      >what pleases me" or is it important what others think of your car.
      >
      >I've had 21 MGs & some I tried for strict originality & it was 
      >important I show well & others opinions.  I would not drive in the 
      >rain or 100 miles to a meet.
      >
      >Others, my Magnette, was not restored to that level.  It satisfied 
      >my wife because of a/c, and I wanted a reliable driver and not be 
      >afraid of door dings, bugs, and was a nice restoration but not a 
      >trailer queen or 95+ restoration.
      >
      >Just my opinion.
      >
      >Phil

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