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Mike,
Thanks for your expert analysis!
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either.. I heard Doane speak and
he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are
countersteering (what I think he meant). I wrote a program to figure out how
it works on the Tiger. Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad until
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really
that bad. And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on a
really
tight course. And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full lock
anymore, even parking.
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day but
isn't used anymore? The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
Gary
> On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip
> angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the
> front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add
> wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move
> around and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do)
> makes it even worse!
> The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so
> equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip
> angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4")
> when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the
> poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative
> camber as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the
> turn radius correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in
> roll lol. Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on
> "Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
> I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's
> front ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but
> if it really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section
> width tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution
> has gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that obviously does nothing to
> address the underlying geometry issues.
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
> To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List
> <tigers@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
> Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
>
> Lance,
> There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still
> available.
> Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension. It
> fixed the geometry but was about $5K
> last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
> People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It mounts up
> under the dash so it all looks stock,
> would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have put in
> conventional hydraulic power steering.
> Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for
> instance.
> Gary
>
>
> > > On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp
> <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really
> > good explanation, still love the car. Beau
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD
> > <garywinblad@comcast.net mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net > wrote:
> >
> > > > > HI Lance,
> > > Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the
> > > rack way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
> > > Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer
> > > today. Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
> > > Rootes would build a new crossmember.
> > > The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel
> > > needs to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
> > > Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.
> > > The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
> > > a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my
> > > slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
> > > full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake...
> > > what a great design Shelby!
> > > On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really
> > > less than ideal... MIKE analysis??
> > > On a big course it might not make such a difference though
> > > Jim Adams said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
> > > car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth..
> > > I hear that as...).
> > >
> > > Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small
> > > solution Dale has...
> > > You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds,
> > > especially with big sticky tires.
> > > But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier
> > > as both tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
> > > off the corner...
> > >
> > > Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
> > > Gary W.
> > >
> > >
> > > > > > > On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance
> > > Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com mailto:blance598@gmail.com > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can
> > > > you tell me how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like
> > > > 15 mph or under. I always blame the steering geometry, is it all
> > > > that? Beau
> > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> tigers@autox.team.net mailto:tigers@autox.team.net
>
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers
> http://www.team.net/pipermail/tigers http://autox.team.net/archive
>
> Unsubscribe:
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>
>
>
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<!doctype html>
<html>
<head>
<meta charset="UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<div>
Mike,
</div>
<div class="default-style">
Thanks for your expert analysis!
</div>
<div class="default-style">
Yes, I never did find what Ackerman is best either.. I heard Doane
speak and he said the reverse Ackerman is actually an advantage when you are
</div>
<div class="default-style">
countersteering (what I think he meant). I wrote a program to figure
out how it works on the Tiger. Turns out Ackerman is not really that bad
until
</div>
<div class="default-style">
you get to pretty extreme steering angles, so on a big track it isn't really
that bad. And with initial toe-out dialed in it might not be that bad on
a really
</div>
<div class="default-style">
tight course. And because of the fulcrum pin issue, I NEVER go full
lock anymore, even parking.
</div>
<div class="default-style">
Yeah camber... why did the lowered a-arm trick seem to work back in the day
but isn't used anymore? The GT-350s I have looked at still have it.
</div>
<div class="default-style">
I know it was bad for braking but so is initial negative camber?
</div>
<div class="default-style">
Heavy steering, why I left my big stock steering wheel.
</div>
<div class="default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class="default-style">
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On 10/01/2021 11:54 AM Michael Wood <mwood24020@aol.com> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; color:
black;">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;
color: black;">
Gary, I think you nailed it, reverse Ackermann leads to some funky slip
angles and strangely heavy steering, particularly felt at low speeds...the
front tires are literally fighting each other. The fact we all typically add
wider wheels makes the steering even heavier (both contact patch to move around
and scrub radius). Finally, maxing out caster with wedges (which I do) makes it
even worse!
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;
color: black;">
The longer MG steering arms help, I've found on cars I've driven so
equipped, but I haven't bothered to do on my car. Toe out changes the slip
angle and also helps get the car to turn in, but I only go to toe out (1/4")
when autocrossing, as toe out also is a great way to kill tires. Besides the
poor camber curve, Ackerman is another reason why I run as much negative camber
as possible...if the outside wheel isn't technically aligned to the turn radius
correctly, at least I can maximize the unaligned contact patch in roll lol.
Funny thing, even the real experts I've read can't seem to agree on
"Ackermann", because there are so many other variables.
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;
color: black;">
I don't know, outside of a custom solution like Dale's or Hokanson's front
ends, of a real fix. I've just learned to live with heavy steering, but if it
really is a problem, going to stock width wheels and smaller section width
tires really makes a difference. The electric power steering solution has
gotten to be a pretty easy deal, but that obviously does nothing to
address the underlying geometry issues.
</div>
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;
color: black;">
Mike
<br>
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: GARY WINBLAD <garywinblad@comcast.net>
<br>To: Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com>; Tiger List
<tigers@autox.team.net>
<br>Sent: Fri, Oct 1, 2021 7:42 am
<br>Subject: Re: [Tigers] Front suspension
<br>
<br>
</div>
<div id="yiv9946714849">
<div>
<div>
Lance,
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
There are a couple more expensive solutions that might be still
available.
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
Dale did design and make an entire front crossmember/suspension.
It fixed the geometry but was about $5K
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
last I heard, and he might have stopped making them.
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
People (mostly in EU) have put in electric power steering. It
mounts up under the dash so it all looks stock,
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
would be great in a parking lot or tight course. Others have put
in conventional hydraulic power steering.
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
Shelby had his guys put in a Miata power rack in his wife's Tiger for
instance.
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
Gary
</div>
<div class="yiv9946714849default-style">
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On 10/01/2021 9:36 AM Lance Beauchamp <blance598@gmail.com> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
So it is what it is, end of story, thank very much for a really good
explanation, still love the car. Beau
</div>
<br>
<div class="yiv9946714849gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="yiv9946714849gmail_attr">
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 10:13 PM GARY WINBLAD <<a
href="mailto:garywinblad@comcast.net"; target="_blank"
rel="noopener">garywinblad@comcast.net</a>> wrote:
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<u></u>
<div>
<div>
HI Lance,
</div>
<div>
Steering geometry is a real problem. Shelby throwing the rack
way out in front of the engine was a quick solution.
</div>
<div>
Rootes didn't want to change a Shelby design... so we suffer
today. Doane knew it was a problem but he thought
</div>
<div>
Rootes would build a new crossmember.
</div>
<div>
The problem is when you go around a corner, the inside wheel needs
to run a smaller radius turn than the outside.
</div>
<div>
Toe in on turns or Ackerman geometry is what it is called.
The Tiger has reverse Ackerman, the inner wheel turns
</div>
<div>
a larger radius! When I used to push my Tiger out to my
slightly downhill driveway it was easier to turn the wheel
</div>
<div>
full lock than to reach down and pull the parking brake... what a
great design Shelby!
</div>
<div>
On a tight autocross course or a parking lot this is really less
than ideal... MIKE analysis??
</div>
<div>
On a big course it might not make such a difference though Jim Adams
said he had to "toss the Tiger like a sprint
</div>
<div>
car" (keeping it jumping and sliding rather than be smooth.. I
hear that as...).
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Longer MGB steering arms and initial toe-out is the small solution
Dale has...
</div>
<div>
You may notice, its hard to turn the wheel at slow speeds,
especially with big sticky tires.
</div>
<div>
But once you go into a fairly tight turn, it becomes easier as both
tires lose contact.. and the Tiger goes straight
</div>
<div>
off the corner...
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
Mike, do I have it anywhere correct?
</div>
<div>
Gary W.
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
On 09/30/2021 9:55 PM Lance Beauchamp <<a
href="mailto:blance598@gmail.com"; target="_blank"
rel="noopener">blance598@gmail.com</a>> wrote:
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<br>
</div>
<div>
You say you spend alot of time on suspension Gary, can you tell me
how to make the Tiger easier to turn at lower speeds, like 15 mph or under. I
always blame the steering geometry, is it all that?
Beau
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>_______________________________________________
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</blockquote>
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