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Message-ID: <3D8957AA.80679DED@attglobal.net>
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 00:50:50 -0400
From: Don Malling <dmallin@attglobal.net>
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To: "Kai M. Radicke" <kai@radiohead.net>
Subject: Re: The TR6 I *didn't* buy...
References: <041701c25f23$3d0e0be0$1202a8c0@lucifer>
After reading the horror stories in this thread about the problems and
expense of rust and body restoration (here in the north east), it made
me think the price for a new BMH TR6 body shell may not be a bad
investment ($7K). Unfortunately, new frames are no longer available.
>From BMH, it appears that there are three body shell choices
1969 to 1972 for Chassis prefix CP or CC
1972 to 1974 for Chassis prefix CF1 to CF27000
1974 to 1976 for Chassis prefix CF27001 to CF58328
Any consensus of which model is most desirable? My impression is that
the early models had better performance. Any issues of parts
availability?
What are your thoughts on frame restoration? Is this rocket science or
something that can be achieved. Makes me wonder how ones goes about
getting everything lined up correctly if old sections are replaced with
new ones. Perhaps whole section replacement is not usually required? Are
good frames generally available? Replacement section available?
Thanks,
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Don Malling
"Kai M. Radicke" wrote:
>
> All right, I've got quite a bit of time to type out the specifics of that
> infuriating trip to Canada, so here it is.
>
> The car is a 1973 TR6 owned by JP LaCroix of Ottawa, Ontario. It is chassis
> # CF3193U and is painted some undistinguishable shade of Triumph or British
> racing green.
>
> I drove 500 miles to Canada on Saturday with all intentions of purchasing
> this car if it was represented as it had been in my numerous detailed
> discussions with the seller. We exchanged numerous lengthy emails about the
> car and there were at least 10 lengthy telephone conversations about the car
> as well. I'm no newbie to TRs, as everyone knows, so my questions were
> pointed and exacting as to what I had wanted to know about specific areas of
> the car.
>
> My very initial question to the seller after spotting the car on the VTR
> website classifieds, was to ask about the condition of the paint, body and
> underlying structure. I received a quick reply notifying me that the paint
> was excellent, as it had received a paint job in 1996. I was also notified
> that the chassis of the car had been previously repaired by the last owner
> (early 90s) and that it too was in excellent shape. I was clued into the
> fact that there were a "couple of small paint bubbles on the rear deck
> filler piece (passenger side) near where it connects to the rear quarter
> panel", this is no big surprise to me... it is often times hard to remove
> all the rust in this gap even when doing a car correctly. What I found were
> 5-10 pea sized bubbles on the passenger side of the deck filler piece
> scattered all over, not just near the seam with the fender. These were
> clearly not just rust bubbles, these were full blown, I used a gallon of
> cheap plastic filler on this area bubbles.
>
> I continued my inspection of the exterior of the vehicle, only to find more
> trouble spots. The three bolts securing the lower front fenders to the body
> of the car were missing, on both sides. I was in immediate disbelief over
> this one, as I kept running my fingers over the seam to figure out what was
> holding the fenders to the car. I could find nothing, the holes for these
> bolts had been filled in and painted as well. The body side of that seam
> had also been filled such that there were no clue that fastener holes even
> existed in this area. At this point the seller started to become irritated
> with me and when I questioned why this was he retorted "they're just bolts,
> the fenders don't flap when you drive". Uh huh.
>
> Okay, so far, I'm feeling disappointed, but am willing to continue the
> inspection to see if it gets any worse. It sure does! At this point I
> asked to see the restoration photos of the car, so I could ascertain how
> other, hidden, repairs had been made. The first thing I noticed was that
> battery box area had a large rust hole prior to painting in 1996. I
> immediately checked how it had been repaired on the car, and what I found
> was a piece of poorly formed sheet metal riveted to the bulkhead (and
> beneath the battery) and then painted over with a heavy black paint, much
> like POR15, which with the battery in place easily hid the repair from the
> eye if you weren't clued in that there was ever rust there to begin with. I
> had known the engine bay was painted black, but I've also seen many engine
> bay's painted black on other TR6s where the owners were just too lazy to do
> a full respray in one colour.
>
> Now I'm questioning the owner's legitimacy when it comes to representing
> this car. He had the photos of the work, he knew how the repairs had been
> completed (they were not even repairs in my opinion, just Band-Aids). I
> flipped through his photo album a bit more, passed the shot of the stripped
> interior once, and then decided to come back to it because the black floor
> pans didn't look like your typical BMH reproduction TR6 floor pans that come
> in black rust inhibitor. I can't say I was surprised when I realized that
> these too were more poorly formed sheet metal floor pans in the car (both
> floors). The seller had redid the interior a few years ago, and the all
> layers of the carpet (carpet, padding, sound insulation) were extremely well
> held down with copious amounts of 3M Carpet Adhesive. Which was the reason
> I couldn't check the floors to begin with, and had to rely on the
> restoration photos.
>
> Saving the worst for last, but fully expecting what to find now, were the
> sills. Sure enough, these were butchered at some point too (restoration
> photos did not show the sills). What I found in this area was an 1/8 inch
> thick substance - either a fiberglass overlay or a bondo shell -- masking
> both right and left outer sills. I was able to actually pull, at the bottom
> seam, this overlay away from whatever was left of the original rocker.
> Absolutely dreadful! It was at this point I realized the car was rotten to
> the core, and this car is not the car I was led to believe it was.
>
> The other problem areas are too numerous to discuss in detail, as I have
> done above. The seam where the rear fender joins the B post, was filled and
> painted, you could physically watch this seem flex. The bondo along this
> seem had already started to part. There was some dodgy filler work done to
> the lower front valance (cleverly disguised by the front bumper); wait a
> second, I thought this car had no accident damage? More misrepresentation.
> The restoration photos yielded that pretty much every panel had filler in
> areas that are known accident damage or rust spots. The underbody and
> chassis of the car were all very well hidden in a thick tar and dirt
> substance that was 1/2" thick in some areas.
>
> It was at this point that I made my dissatisfaction clear about the car, and
> declined to purchase it. I hadn't even bothered to start the car or drive
> the car, but the seller had already notified me of some issues with the
> suspension and engine prior to my trip up. Which was an awful smart thing
> to do, since I had made it clear to him I was looking for a car that was a
> solid foundation to mechanically modify and restore. Therefore, his worn
> cylinders and rings (car smokes) as well as the sloppy U-Joints, were not
> much of a big deal for me... even I know it is 10 times cheaper to fix the
> mechanical systems than the bodies of these cars.
>
> The seller's asking price was $8000 CND ($5100 US), which I felt was fair
> for a sound older restoration that needed some mechanical and drive train
> rejuvenation. After seeing the car, the seller should be asking $5100 CND
> ($3200 US) for a car in this state. I am of the belief that the owner is
> fully aware of the shortcomings of his vehicle, as evidenced by his wife's
> statement that "JP has been doing this all his life". Yes, bodging and
> creating dodgy cars and trying to pass them off as better than they are,
> then yes I believe he has experience with doing this in the past with other
> cars as well.
>
> If anyone on this list has expressed interest in this same car, and would
> like to ask me more specific questions, you can email me at
> kai@radiohead.net or give me a call at 215.269.3344. No one should be led
> to believe this car is something it isn't, especially at this asking price.
>
> All in all, a weekend wasted and many more hours of preparation with US
> Customs, making trip arrangements, as well as over 1000 miles of driving
> specifically to see this car (discounting the 500 mile side trip to pick up
> the gearboxes I purchased). 1500 total miles with an empty U-Haul tow
> dolly, slapping around the road at 70mph is mind numbing. What is more mind
> numbing is to know that someone can this blatantly misrepresent a vehicle.
>
> Kai
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