I apologize in advance for sending this to a list in which it is not=20
appropriate. However, when I am dissed in public, I like to defend=20
myself in the same forum. The whole thing started when someone made what=
=20
I considered to be sweeping generalities which I felt were=20
unsupportable. Perhaps I jumped a bit too hard in my debunking of these=20
statements. I never meant my response to be a flame, and I am sorry if=20
it was perceived as such. Here is what it looks like from my point of=20
view. I won't be taking up space on this forum for this altercation=20
again. I love a good argument with no personal attacks, but I realize=20
this is shop-talk, not oddball-suspension-talk.
Veeduber@aol.com wrote > >>
> >>... On older vehicles having king-pin style steering spindles,
> >> where camber is set by stacks of shims,=20
Phil Ethier wrote > >
> >The method of setting camber has nothing to do with whether the spindle=
=20
> >uses kingpins or ball joints. Or, for that matter, trunions.
Veeduber@aol.com wrote >
> This statement is untrue when applied to Volkswagens
My statement is perfectly true, applied to all cars. Using kingpins does=
=20
not obligate an automotive designer to use shims for alignment.
The original statement you made said, "On older vehicles". This surely=20
does not limit it to Volkswagens. The statement, and others, implied a=20
correlation of kingpins with alignment shims: =20
IF you have kingpins in an older vehicle, THEN you have shims. =20
IF you do not have kingpins in an older vehicle, THEN you do not have=20
shims.=20
This notion is absurd. There is no correlation between these features in=
=20
automotive design.
> >> I do not know
> >> of any ball-joint type suspensions that permit such adjustments;
You did not say that your knowledge was limited to Volkswagens. The=20
reader was left to infer that you believed that there were no cars in the=
=20
world which used ball joints AND alignment shims.
This is demonstrably not true. The SAAB 96 and numerous other vehicles,=20
including many USA cars, used upper and lower balljoints and had full=20
adjustability of camber and caster using shims. The MG Midget, many Ford=
=20
pickups and numerous other vehecles used kingpins and had no setup for=20
alignment via shims.
> >> adjusting the shim stack always
> >> causes a slight change in toe-in which should then be reset. =20
> >Yes. Also, many shim changes will also affect caster.
> This is not clear, unless Phil is referring to shimming the torsion tube
> housing. On Volkswagens,=20
There you go again. You are limiting your comments to the unusual setup=20
in the air-cooled VW and ignoring the world at large. =20
On a double-wishbone front suspension which uses shims (not all of them=20
do, of course), a typical way to set alignment is with shims on both the=20
forward upper arm and the rearward upper arm. To preserve the same=20
caster whilst changing camber, the same thickness of shims must be added=20
or subtracted from BOTH stacks. Caster is adjusted by changing the=20
relative thickness of two stacks. The proper order of setting is thus: =20
Caster, Camber, Toe.
> As I said, I do not know of any ball-joint type suspensions that permit s=
uch
> adjustments. I have never worked on a SAAB. Nor an Apperson Jackrabbit. =
The
> SAAB is among the several hundred brands of automobile with which I've ha=
d no
> experience.
Then why didn't you tell us in the first place that you were limiting=20
your statements to VW cars? You made a sweeping statement about "older=20
vehicles". When I point out that the statement is without basis, you=20
attack me with an Apperson Jackrabbit. :-)
> >How do you set camber on a Chevy pickup? Or don't you?
> If you can be more specific with regard to year, I'll be happy to dig out=
the
> information and explain the procedure to you, although my General Motors
> experience is limited to GMC trucks, older ones for the most part.
Since GMC and Chevy pickups are virtually identical badge-engineered=20
vehicles... =20
I don't know for a fact that the double-wishbone ball-joint front=20
suspension used on the GMC and Chevy pickups use shims for alignment, I=20
wanted confirmation of my belief that they do use shims for alignment=20
before using it as an example to refute the notion that ball-joint=20
vehicles do not use shims with a vehicle which is more common in the=20
USA=CAthan either SAAB or Volkswagen.
> >Phil "this may not be shop talk?" Ethier
This was my subtle way of suggesting that we were getting way too=20
detailed about car talk on a list which is supposed to be for shop talk. =
=20
Too subtle, apparently.
I suggest, if you want to have detailed conversations about=20
Volkswagen cars, that you visit the USENET Newsgroups=20
rec.autos.makers.vw.aircooled and rec.autos.makers.vw.watercooled.
We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion of barns,=20
garages, basements and Quonset huts, and the distribution and setup of=20
the equipment, tools and toys therein.
Phil Ethier <ethier@freenet.msp.mn.us>
|