You wrote "Your Alpine might be British - so is Marks and
Spencer - but it won't be an
Alpine. It will be a heavily- modified hot rod which will give you
great
satisfaction. It still won't be an Alpine or a Tiger. 20 years from
now
it will be junk because it's not stock and not worth saving. One less
Alpine from an ever shrinking pool. Judging by this list, the number of
original Alpines is shrinking at an
ever increasing pace. I would hate to think that our sole purpose is
not
restoration and preservation but modification and ultimately
destruction."
I'm afraid that we'll have to agree to Disagree. I simply don't
agree. A street rod 33' Ford three window coupe is still the same car,
regardless of what powerplant it has. It's an example of what that car
was. Its not the factory version, but it represents what a lot of
people did with them. Perfect originals belong in museums, where one can
go to view the past. Personally, I rather take a good close look at the
ZZ-Top car. Modifying the cars is Americana.
Being a US Citizen, I'm glad the we don't live under the
Original document. It has been improved over the years by a majority
consensus, and is now better than the original. Many of us look at cars
the same way. We'll agree to disagree.
Rich
> ----------
> From:
> mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca[SMTP:mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca]
> Sent: Monday, April 07, 1997 8:54 AM
> To: Richard Atherton (Entex)
> Subject: RE: Woooh! Can of worms!!
>
> > OK, this will require a response from me. I do indeed love
> >these LBC's, basically in any form. The Tiger itself is, as you put
> it,
> >a bastardization of the Alpine. A small American V-8, Falcon sprint
> >Firewall, an American rear end, pretty much British everything else.
> In
> >England, there is a long tradition of modifying the car(s) that you
> own,
> >and engine swaps are great part of that tradition. There are
> numerous
> >magazines that discuss the restoration of British cars. Some for
> purity
> >of the factory delivered model, and others for the performance gains
> or
> >safety improvements. Engine swaps have been going on since Time
> began,
> >(around the 1930's). Look at the British Auto makers themselves.
> >Jensen, Interceptor (Chrysler 440 Magnum V-8), Jensen Healey (Lotus
> 1800
> >Big Valve Twin Cam), TVR (more engine combinations than I can count),
> >Triumph TR-8 (Buick based Rover 3500 V-8), Morgan +8 (same Rover
> engine
> >again), and the list goes on. Although these are factory
> combinations,
> >the end driver community is no different. People have been swapping
> >engines, transmissions, seats, rear ends, etc. for years and years.
> To
> >the owner of an Old Triumph herald with an MG 1800 in it, it's still
> a
> >Triumph Herald, just powered by the MG engine.
> > If I do a very clean and factory appearing engine conversion
> to
> >the Rover 3500 (Buick 215), with a GM 5 or 6 speed tranny, I'm not
> going
> >to call it an Atherton 3500, it will still be a Sunbeam Alpine,
> simply
> >powered by Rover. Obviously, there will be a substantial performance
> >increase, but the appearance of the car will be unchanged. I agree,
> >there should always be some original examples of what the factory
> >produced, but please don't ridicule those who wish to customize or
> >personalize their cars.
>
> Criticism is hardly ridicule. I still believe that ultimately we are
> are
> curators of historic artifacts. How about old buildings with ugly new
> facades?
>
> I have to admit that all of the time and effort
> >that Jim Barnet (351-C) has put into squeezing the Cleveland engine
> into
> >his Tiger seems a bit excessive, but it is HIS car. Even though I
> would
> >never go to that extreme, I'd still like to see and drive what he has
> >built. I kept all of his lengthy posts about what he did to
> strengthen
> >his frame and suspension, because this is VALUABLE information for us
> >all. I would like to think that he might be interested in driving
> mine
> >with the high winding 215 when ever I actually complete it. Of
> course I
> >have to start the project first!
> > How many of the Tigers owners here have show room factory
> stock
> >Tigers?
>
> About as many as there are owners of stock Harley-Davidsons, as I said
> earlier. Today, the biggest interest in that same H-D owners group is
> the
> paying of enormous amounts of money to restore to original all of the
> heavily modified Harleys of the past. The bikes are bought cheaply
> because
> they have no value in their present modified state.
>
> No LAT options (I know they were dealer options, but I'm making
> >a point here), Stock Air cleaners on 2 bbl carbs with points and
> >generators. Not very many. It's not in our nature to leave things
> >alone. A Factory car is a compromise of everything that someone
> would
> >want. Sure, the street Racers want 4.11 rear ends, but the cruisers
> >want the revs in the 2,000 range when on the freeway, and on and on.
> So
> >if your a street racer, your going to want to go to the 4.11 gears.
> >It's what we do, and its why there is a HUGE automotive after market
> for
> >performance goodies. A 4 bbl Tiger is Better than a stock one, but
> they
> >didn't come that way.
>
> An MG with a DOHC Toyota engine is "better" too but it's not an MG.
>
> > I saw a 71 Opel GT about a year ago that someone had taken to
> >California and had the car converted into a convertible. Now sawing
> the
> >roof off of a car is drastic, but it looked fabulous. It was an
> >incredibly cool looking LGC (Little German Car). It was for sale but
> >sold before I could even take a drive in it. Oh well. It's just one
> >more example of someone improving what they have.
>
> Improving? Rich, if you want a convertible - buy a convertible. Why
> butcher another interesting old car to make some bastardized thing
> which
> won't work as well? The Opel GT was a well-designed car with a fluid
> shape
> which required the roof to create the line.
>
>
> It's the owners
> >option. No one is going to buy a perfectly restored Alpine and then
> gut
> >it to drop in a big V-8.
>
> This is news to me. Very few people want to go to the trouble and
> expense
> of resurrecting something which is desperately bad. My impressions
> from
> the list are that it is the decent cars which are undergoing the
> extensive
> modifications.
>
> They'll buy one that is in desperate need of
> >restoration. Don't condemn them for wanting to do what they want to
> the
> >car that THEY own. Nuff said.
> >
> >Rich
>
> Hi Rich:
>
> You make a very good case for the modification or rodding of vehicles.
> We've all done it. You also argue convincingly that many British
> firms
> manufactured factory hotrods. No argument. The result is still a
> "factory
> production" vehicle. I drive a Chrysler 300B. But I would never
> dream of
> dumping a 426 hemi in my old Mopar. That would be sacrilege. Sure it
> would go faster etc. etc. It wouldn't be a 300B any longer - just
> another
> rod with no history and ultimately no value.
>
> Your Alpine might be British - so is Marks and Spencer - but it won't
> be an
> Alpine. It will be a heavily- modified hot rod which will give you
> great
> satisfaction. It still won't be an Alpine or a Tiger. 20 years from
> now
> it will be junk because it's not stock and not worth saving. One less
> Alpine from an ever shrinking pool. I realize that it's your car.
> You can
> do what you want.
>
> Judging by this list, the number of original Alpines is shrinking at
> an
> ever increasing pace. I would hate to think that our sole purpose is
> not
> restoration and preservation but modification and ultimately
> destruction.
>
> Have you tried to find an original '32 Ford or 49 Mercury lately? How
> about a '55 Chev with stock wheels?
>
> John McEwen
>
> I still think that nothing looks nicer than a bog stock vehicle.
> >
> >
> >
> >> ----------
> >> From:
> >> mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca[SMTP:mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca]
> >> Sent: Sunday, April 06, 1997 9:58 AM
> >> To: Richard Atherton (Entex)
> >> Cc: alpines@autox.team.net
> >> Subject: RE: Woooh! Can of worms!!
> >>
> >> > >"why not just junk the old British steel bodies and buy a
> >> >kit-built
> >> > >something-or-other from Taiwan. Hell, if we bolt Sunbeam
> >> >Alpine on it, who
> >> > >will know the difference?
> >> > >
> >> > >John McEwen"
> >>
> >> Hello Richard and List:
> >>
> >> I guess my biggest problem with many of the Alpine postings on this
> >> list -
> >> and one which my limp sarcasm failed to adequately probe - is that
> the
> >> major goal seems to be the major modification of all existing
> vehicles
> >> into
> >> something non-original. I don't have a big quarrel with reversible
> >> modifications. But I do feel that many of us are trying to turn
> >> vintage
> >> sports cars into modern, fast light cars in an attempt to say "Look
> >> what I
> >> did".
> >>
> >> We who "live and breathe LBCs" should realize that during our short
> >> lives
> >> we are in actuality stewards of the old vehicles which we
> temporarily
> >> own -
> >> just as we are stewards of the natural resources of our countries.
> >> This
> >> reckless pressure to modify engines, chassis and interiors in a
> >> foolish
> >> attempt to make a leather purse out of a cow's ear is rapidly
> >> destroying
> >> what we believe in. When we are dead what will be left?
> >> Buick-engined
> >> Alpines? Ford-engined Alpines? V-6- engined Alpines? Sure the
> old
> >> four-banger is no ball of fire but it was plenty good enough 35
> years
> >> ago.
> >> Why is everyone trying to make a 1997 car out of something built in
> >> 1962?
> >>
> >> My advice to all of you is to buy a new Neon or a Sunbird. It will
> go
> >> as
> >> fast as your heavily-modified Alpine. It will probably be cheaper
> and
> >> infinitely more reliable than your bastardized LBC and will fetch a
> >> decent
> >> resale price when you are tired of playing with it. Leave the old
> >> cars
> >> alone. Restore them to their original specs and enjoy them for
> what
> >> they
> >> are.
> >>
> >> I would like to think that our children and their children will be
> >> able to
> >> enjoy an LBC too. If you must have a go-fast sports car, buy a kit
> or
> >> hotrod a Miata. It is the height of hypocrisy to proclaim LBC love
> >> while
> >> destroying the very character you apparently so revere.
> >>
> >> "It's my car so I can do whatever I want to it. Just butt out!"
> >>
> >>
> >> John McEwen
> >>
> >> See what I mean?
> >>
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Answer: Everyone who lives and breathes LBC's. !!!!!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > When I do My V-8 conversion to the Buick 215 Aluminum
> block,
> >> >I'll probably go get a newer Rover block not because it's better,
> >> (there
> >> >are some structual impovements), but BECAUSE it will be a British
> >> >Engine. Although, I'll still use my cool Offenhauser aluminum
> valve
> >> >covers.!! I will use an American gearbox because they are much
> >> better
> >> >than the British ones that will fit.
> >> >
> >> > Rich
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> ----------
> >> >> From:
> >> >> mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca[SMTP:mmcewen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, April 03, 1997 4:01 PM
> >> >> To: alpines@autox.team.net
> >> >> Subject: Re: Woooh! Can of worms!!
> >> >>
> >> >> >matthew.c.jennings wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> > I am offended that we are wasting time and energy on
> >> >> >> polluting this forum with remarks such as this.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Here, Here - lets get back to Ring Gear Bolts, guys!!
> >> >> >Tony
> >> >>
> >> >> Or possibly a continued discussion on the merits of modifying
> all
> >> >> existing
> >> >> engines into 200 HP turbo Porshe fighters. How about throwing
> away
> >> >> the
> >> >> body and the engine and hanging Sunbeam letters on a Fiero?
> >> Perhaps
> >> >> we
> >> >> should consider a spirited examination of the benefits of V6 or
> V8
> >> >> engines
> >> >> which can be welded and bolted into Sunbeam bodies in order to
> >> destroy
> >> >> any
> >> >> possible vestige of British engineering. We all know that the
> only
> >> >> reason
> >> >> for restoring a Tiger to stock is because the owner can't afford
> >> the
> >> >> necessary modifications to make it a modern, competitive street
> >> car.
> >> >> In
> >> >> fact a stock Tiger is about as rare as a stock Harley-Davidson.
> >> >>
> >> >> After we've followed the collective wisdom of the list regarding
> >> >> engine,
> >> >> electrical, suspension, wheel/tire, and interior modifications
> or
> >> >> outright
> >> >> changes, why not just junk the old British steel bodies and buy
> a
> >> >> kit-built
> >> >> something-or-other from Taiwan. Hell, if we bolt Sunbeam Alpine
> on
> >> >> it, who
> >> >> will know the difference?
> >> >>
> >> >> In complete agreement with Tony,
> >> >>
> >> >> John McEwen
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
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