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Darn forgot to send to list again
Ron
=20
From: Ron Fraser <rfraser@bluefrog.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2022 10:19 AM
To: 'Robert Wanty' <bobwanty@gmail.com>; 'Larry Mayfield' =
<drmayf@mayfco.com>
Subject: RE: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Bob
Experiments by Ford and others show that there is =
minimal engine wear at 180 degrees. Today I believe the thermostats =
are around 195 to 210 degrees. This keeps all the fluids, oil and ATF, =
at optimum operating temp.
=20
I did some work for a friend on his 5.0L Mustang, a number of little =
upgrades. One of the items was a 160 thermostat. I spent about an =
hour telling him not to go there, that he would hate it but he insisted. =
Later, he told me he hated it. MPG was down and he had little cabin =
heat.
=20
Ron Fraser
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net =
Tigers
Sent: Wednesday, July 06, 2022 7:32 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
I have a MK1 with a 260 bored 0.030 over with a mild cam, headers, ford =
cast iron 4bbl intake, stock cooling system. The thermostat is a 160 and =
I was told that the cooling system would work better with a 180 =
thermostat because the system would work more efficiently and shed more =
heat at the higher temperature. Not sure if this is true but seems as =
though that may make sense.
I found that if the air temperature is below 70 the car runs around 120, =
above 80 degrees at cruising speed it stays around 160 and around 220 at =
idle. Not sure what happens when the air temperature is above 85 to 90 =
because it is no fun driving around in a microwave so I drive a backup =
911 with ac.
My 2 cents on the subject.
Bob
=20
=20
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=20
On Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Larry Mayfield via Tigers =
Thank you for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your =
suggestion, i.e. =E2=80=9CTiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D =
and it was the first thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and =
will do a more detailed review for myself as a bit of time goes on.=20
I must say these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and =
conducting the experiment and making comparisons. I am going to comment =
of the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call =
missing, elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results. =
It is going to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol.=20
=20
It was not very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be =
pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant =
conditions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results =
which do not seem to have been addressed as the =E2=80=9CWhy does it =
overheat at idle?=E2=80=9D question, at least, I think that was the =
question. So, just who the dickens am I to question anything that these =
men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager for a =
large Aerospace company and did a lot of test analyses preceded by test =
design to make sure that the UUT was set up to produce the spec =
conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectly as could be =
determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed good.=20
A. The first thing was just how bad was the engine over heating at idle? =
The conditions should have contained a detailed description of the same =
parameters used in the test. The atmospheric conditions, the absolute =
air temperature, the absolute air pressure (not baro), the humidity, and =
altitude, entering the system. The system is defined as everything =
surrounding the vehicle. Why is this important? Well, the conditions =
need to be replicated each time a test run is made. If you want to know =
that the changes made later have an effect, plus or minus. Take =
humidity, humid air has less air in it, lol. Water vapor is less dense =
that the atmospheric make up and that means that the heat transfer rate =
is altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed by the mass of coolant flowing =
both in the system and then into the ambient air. The cooling air =
enthalpy and entropy can be calculated, with the help of =
=E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts with this data as to how well =
the ambient can cool something. Flow rate of the cooling air is a key =
element but so is the actual mass of the air (with humidity) that flows =
through the radiator and into the engine compartment, and then into the =
surrounding ambient air. Heat only flows from hot to cold and the =
smaller the difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the air =
flow rate can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at =
seal level with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is =
the mass of and the particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is =
important If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle =
issue, then the air was a few degrees warmer. If outside, the temp and =
abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the humidity to know how well =
the system was performing.=20
B. The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As has been =
stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator =
antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from freezing, it =
also increases the boiling point. But it also adds protection to the =
iron and aluminum and other metallic components through which the =
coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents of the coolant could be =
made to determine just how effective it is as a heat transfer mechanism =
both in the engine and radiator at operating conditions. The flow rate =
through the radio need quantifying: a flow meter placed into the =
radiator water pump feed would be an excellent place to start. The flow =
rate with coolant out and the exit temperature and pressure measured, =
And the ambient conditions at that time, a better analysis of any =
changes can be made. It should be noted that there are two other =
methods of cooling that come into play as well. That is convection and =
conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, the oil in the pan =
and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant in it all come into =
play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the materials need to be =
acquired along with their surface area and external conditions found in =
order to get an accurate analysis. Another is radiation from the =
surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the infrared heat so to =
speak send heat out as photons heating everything the radiation touches. =
And convection, the air that cools the exterior of the engine as well as =
the engine bay must have air flow to remove the heat: those surfaces =
all need to be monitored as well. =20
C. Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn of the engine. The air =
fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine put into the best =
operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean burn is =
hotter, so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system will =
melt pistons (been there, done that). The stochiometric air fuel ratio =
needs to be the same for every test. At the best burn value. Even a =
too rich burn can cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp and air =
pressure should be monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition that =
leads to unexpected heat being generated. Flow meters on the engine air =
intake and fuel as well as air and fuel temperature are needed.=20
Was the experiment invalid? No, it was not. It provided useful, =
information that many had not through about and there are things that =
were made to that should have changed the results more than they =
appeared to change. I congratulate them for the effort they put into =
this!=20
=20
If I was to do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics =
for concise parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the =
effect of the changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega =
2560 module, a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful =
of pressure sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good thermodynamics =
textbook and go at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial data output =
capability which can be recorded as well as a serial plotter which can =
display and record all the data channels virtually simultaneously. All =
can be exported to excel if needed for individual parameter display. =20
=20
Or just drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time =
ago an dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider =
doing a repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for =
the notion that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer =
to the cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me =
approaching 81 years of age and slowing way, way, down.=20
=20
Mayf, twfs 210.779 mph out the back door=E2=80=A6=20
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net =
Tigers
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Dr. M, check the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for =
Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point =
for finding that study, others may have a direct source.
=20
On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com =
=20
Buck, I live in the southern alps :)
40 Celsius and 2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and =
altitudes.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel =
Owain, have you encountered either high outside air temps or high =
altitudes when using Evans in your Tiger?
=20
Buck
=20
>=20
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM
>
Cc: Buck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net =
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Assuming all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the =
job in my car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. =
My car ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect =
radiator. As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead it is =
fine.
=20
My reason for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I =
struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it =
was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I could get =
a new brass one I would certainly prefer that.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1@verizon.net =
Another issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators =
are lighter but brass transfers heat more efficiently.
=20
When I redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass =
retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not affected.
=20
Also if you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed =
impeller type water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket =
companies sell them already set up this way, but you can buy just the =
impeller plate from Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. =
Pumping efficiency is greatly improved.
=20
TEAE did a study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This =
excellent engineering study is still applicable today and well worth =
reading, dispelling a lot of myths.
=20
Another design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion =
of the fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator =
then goes down to the ground and circles back through the front of the =
radiator, at rest.
=20
I know this for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air =
recirculating.
=20
I fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost =
plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air =
through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in =
motion.
=20
Bottom line it all works and I don't overheat.
=20
I have to laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up =
so much space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars =
and how they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another =
myth.
=20
On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com =
=20
Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the tiger with the =
500hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so had to switch =
off even back to water and antifreeze. It worked sort of ok with the =
dale radiator but then I switched to another brand radiator and it just =
couldn=E2=80=99t keep the temps down. Pretty sure it would be doable =
with an efficient and lower power motor if all the other cooling =
problems were taken care of.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers =
In August of the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I =
put Evans in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in =
front of a rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an =
almost 5-thousand mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La =
Crosse via I80/I90 to attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the =
way home. Temperatures were frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a =
test.
=20
The Evans did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its =
inferior specific heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the =
engine heat.=20
=20
The carb got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and =
the engine stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes =
above 4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the =
same AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly =
drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with =
plain water so I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred =
crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced =
the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion protection.=20
=20
I don=E2=80=99t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific =
heat (or ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is =
something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not =
do the job. From my experience I=E2=80=99d say one would have to be =
exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stock radiator system =
or with a more powerful engine which will place even more demand on the =
Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we drove on that =
trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot radiator =
fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a problem.)
=20
Buck Trippel
Ps I wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more =
detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =E2=80=93 I think =
it was published in both the TEAE and CAT newletters.
=20
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net =
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:06 AM
Subject: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless Coolant?=20
It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone who's =
using it as I'm considering it.=20
=20
Thanks in advance,=20
=20
Tym McDowell=20
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Darn =
forgot to send to list again<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ron<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Ron Fraser =
<rfraser@bluefrog.com> <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 06, 2022 =
10:19 AM<br><b>To:</b> 'Robert Wanty' <bobwanty@gmail.com>; 'Larry =
Mayfield' <drmayf@mayfco.com><br><b>Subject:</b> RE: [Tigers] =
Evans Waterless Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bob<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> &=
nbsp; Experiments by Ford and others show =
that there is minimal engine wear at 180 degrees. Today I =
believe the thermostats are around 195 to 210 degrees. This =
keeps all the fluids, oil and ATF, at optimum operating =
temp.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I did some work for a friend on his 5.0L Mustang, a =
number of little upgrades. One of the items was a 160 =
thermostat. I spent about an hour telling him not to go =
there, that he would hate it but he insisted. Later, he told =
me he hated it. MPG was down and he had little cabin =
heat.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Ron Fraser<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> =
Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net";>tigers-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Robert Wanty via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Wednesday, July 06, 2022 7:32 AM<br><b>To:</b> Larry Mayfield <<a =
href=3D"mailto:drmayf@mayfco.com";>drmayf@mayfco.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b>=
tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a>><br><b=
>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
have a MK1 with a 260 bored 0.030 over with a mild cam, headers, ford =
cast iron 4bbl intake, stock cooling system. The thermostat is a 160 and =
I was told that the cooling system would work better with a 180 =
thermostat because the system would work more efficiently and shed more =
heat at the higher temperature. Not sure if this is true but seems as =
though that may make sense.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I found that if the air temperature is below 70 the =
car runs around 120, above 80 degrees at cruising speed it stays around =
160 and around 220 at idle. Not sure what happens when the air =
temperature is above 85 to 90 because it is no fun driving around =
in a microwave so I drive a backup 911 with =
ac.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>My 2 cents on the =
subject.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Bob<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DDAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><table class=3DMsoNormalTable =
border=3D1 cellpadding=3D0 style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #D3D4DE =
1.0pt'><tr><td width=3D55 =
style=3D'width:41.25pt;border:none;padding:9.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><a =
href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sou=
rce=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail" =
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'text-decoration:none'><img border=3D0 =
width=3D46 height=3D29 style=3D'width:.4791in;height:.302in' =
id=3D"_x0000_i1025" =
src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-green-avg=
-v1.png"></span></a><o:p></o:p></p></td><td width=3D470 =
style=3D'width:352.5pt;border:none;padding:9.0pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'line-height:13.5pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#41424E'>V=
irus-free. <a =
href=3D"http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_sou=
rce=3Dlink&utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail" =
target=3D"_blank"><span style=3D'color:#4453EA'>www.avg.com</span></a> =
<o:p></o:p></span></p></td></tr></table></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Tue, Jul 5, 2022 at 10:19 PM Larry Mayfield via Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Thank you =
for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your suggestion, =
i.e. =E2=80=9CTiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D and it =
was the first thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and =
will do a more detailed review for myself as a bit of time goes on. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I must say =
these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and conducting =
the experiment and making comparisons. I am going to comment of =
the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call missing, =
elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results. It is =
going to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>It was =
<i>not</i> very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be =
pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant =
conditions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results =
which do not seem to have been addressed as the =E2=80=9CWhy does =
it overheat at idle?=E2=80=9D question, at least, I think that was =
the question. So, just who the dickens am I to question anything that =
these men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager =
for a large Aerospace company and did a <b>lot</b> of test analyses =
preceded by test design to make sure that the UUT was set up to produce =
the spec conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectly as could =
be determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed good. =
<o:p></o:p></p><ol start=3D1 type=3DA><li =
class=3Dgmail-m-4732738681393012823msolistparagraph style=3D'mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>The first thing was just how bad was the engine over =
heating at idle? The conditions should have contained a detailed =
description of the same parameters used in the test. The atmospheric =
conditions, the absolute air temperature, the absolute air pressure =
(<u>not</u> baro), the humidity, and altitude, entering the =
system. The system is defined as everything surrounding the =
vehicle. Why is this important? Well, the conditions need to be =
replicated each time a test run is made. If you want to know that the =
changes made later have an effect, plus or minus. Take humidity, =
humid air has less air in it, lol. Water vapor is less dense that the =
atmospheric make up and that means that the heat transfer rate is =
altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed by the <b>mass</b> of coolant =
flowing both in the system and then into the ambient air. The =
cooling air enthalpy and entropy can be calculated, with the help of =
=E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts with this data as to how well =
the ambient can cool something. Flow rate of the cooling air is a =
<b>key element</b> but so is the <b>actual mass</b> of the air (with =
humidity) that flows through the radiator and into the engine =
compartment, and then into the surrounding ambient air. Heat only =
flows from hot to cold and the smaller the difference, the less heat is =
removed. For instance: the air flow rate can be measured at some =
altitude with a low pressure but at seal level with the same conditions =
of temp have less mass. Again, it is <b>the mass</b> of and the =
particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is important =
If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle =
issue, then the air was a few degrees warmer. If outside, =
the temp and abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the humidity to =
know how well the system was performing. <o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3Dgmail-m-4732738681393012823msolistparagraph style=3D'mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As =
has been stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding =
radiator antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from =
freezing, it also increases the boiling point. But it also adds =
protection to the iron and aluminum and other metallic components =
through which the coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents of the =
coolant could be made to determine just how effective it is as a heat =
transfer mechanism both in the engine and radiator at operating =
conditions. The flow rate through the radio need quantifying: a flow =
meter placed into the radiator water pump feed would be an excellent =
place to start. The flow rate with coolant out and the exit temperature =
and pressure measured, And the ambient conditions at that time, a better =
analysis of any changes can be made. It should be noted that there =
are two other methods of cooling that come into play as well. That is =
convection and conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, the =
oil in the pan and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant =
in it all come into play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the =
materials need to be acquired along with their surface area and external =
conditions found in order to get an accurate analysis. Another is =
radiation from the surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the =
infrared heat so to speak send heat out as photons heating everything =
the radiation touches. And convection, the air that cools the exterior =
of the engine as well as the engine bay must have air flow to remove the =
heat: those surfaces all need to be monitored as well. =
<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3Dgmail-m-4732738681393012823msolistparagraph style=3D'mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo3'>Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn of the engine. =
The air fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine put into the =
best operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean burn is =
hotter, so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system will =
melt pistons (been there, done that). The stochiometric air fuel =
ratio needs to be the same for every test. At the best burn =
value. Even a too rich burn can cause excess heat. The engine air =
inlet temp and air pressure should be monitored for analysis of fuel =
burn condition that leads to unexpected heat being generated. Flow =
meters on the engine air intake and fuel as well as air and fuel =
temperature are needed. <o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'color:red;background:yellow'>Was the experiment invalid? No, it =
was not. It provided useful, information that many had not through about =
and there are things that were made to that should have changed the =
results more than they appeared to change. I congratulate them for =
the effort they put into this</span><span style=3D'color:red'>! =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>If I was to =
do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics for concise =
parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the effect of the =
changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega 2560 =
module, a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful of =
pressure sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good =
thermodynamics textbook and go at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial =
data output capability which can be recorded as well as a serial plotter =
which can display and record all the data channels virtually =
simultaneously. All can be exported to excel if needed for individual =
parameter display. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Or just =
drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time ago an =
dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider doing a =
repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for the notion =
that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer to the =
cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me approaching 81 =
years of age and slowing way, way, down. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Mayf, twfs =
210.779 mph out the back door=E2=80=A6 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor =
currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
Tigers <<a href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>LARRY PAULICK via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 =
AM<br><b>To:</b> Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Dr. M, =
check the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for Tiger =
Tom and tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point =
for finding that study, others may have a direct =
source.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p><=
/p><blockquote style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Jul 3, =
2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Buck, I =
live in the southern alps :)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>40 Celsius =
and 2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and =
altitudes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Il giorno =
sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bucktrippel@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>> ha =
scritto:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor =
rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Owain, have =
you encountered either high outside air temps or high altitudes when =
using Evans in your Tiger?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Buck<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor =
currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
Owain Lloyd <<a href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> LARRY PAULICK <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lpaulick1@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@verizon.net</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Buck =
Trippel <<a href=3D"mailto:bucktrippel@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Assuming =
all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the job in my =
car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. =
My car ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect =
radiator. As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead =
it is fine.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My reason =
for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I =
struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it =
was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I =
could get a new brass one I would certainly prefer =
that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Il giorno =
sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lpaulick1@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@verizon.net</a>> ha =
scritto:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor =
rgb(204,204,204)'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Another =
issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators are =
lighter but brass transfers heat more =
efficiently.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>When I =
redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass =
retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not =
affected.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Also if =
you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed impeller type =
water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket companies sell them =
already set up this way, but you can buy just the impeller plate from =
Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. Pumping efficiency =
is greatly improved.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>TEAE did a =
study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This excellent =
engineering study is still applicable today and well worth reading, =
dispelling a lot of myths.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Another =
design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion of the =
fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator then goes =
down to the ground and circles back through the front of the radiator, =
at rest.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I know this =
for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air =
recirculating.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I =
fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost =
plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air =
through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in =
motion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Bottom line =
it all works and I don't overheat.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have to =
laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up so much =
space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars and how =
they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another =
myth.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></div></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Jul 2, =
2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the =
tiger with the 500hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so =
had to switch off even back to water and antifreeze. It worked =
sort of ok with the dale radiator but then I switched to another brand =
radiator and it just couldn=E2=80=99t keep the temps down. Pretty =
sure it would be doable with an efficient and lower power motor if all =
the other cooling problems were taken care =
of.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Il giorno =
sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>> ha =
scritto:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor =
rgb(204,204,204)'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>In August =
of the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I put Evans =
in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in front of =
a rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an almost =
5-thousand mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La Crosse via =
I80/I90 to attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the way home. =
Temperatures were frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a =
test.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>The Evans =
did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its inferior specific =
heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the engine =
heat. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>The carb =
got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and the engine =
stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes above =
4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the same =
AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly =
drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with =
plain water so I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred =
crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced =
the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion =
protection. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>I =
don=E2=80=99t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific =
heat (or ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is =
something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not =
do the job. From my experience I=E2=80=99d say one would have to be =
exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stock radiator system =
or with a more powerful engine which will place even more demand on the =
Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we drove on that =
trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot radiator =
fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a =
problem.)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Buck =
Trippel</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Ps I =
wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more =
detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =E2=80=93 I think =
it was published in both the TEAE and CAT =
newletters.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in;border-color:currentcolor currentcolor'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Dr. T. Y. McDowell<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, =
July 2, 2022 5:06 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tiger's List <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [=
Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless =
Coolant? </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone =
who's using it as I'm considering =
it. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Thanks in advance, </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Tym McDowell </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
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