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Mayfield
=20
This is an excellent review of the cooling article. What we have here =
is a Thermodynamics problem and you are correct it needs more =
instrumentation to understand the data details. Much more work is need =
to truly understand this problem. There are way too many variables for =
most of us to comprehend and understand.
=20
Tiger Tom and company where mostly looking at the air flow through the =
radiator; this was their main concern and objective. Air flow is a =
major key to cooling but not the only key. Some of this study started =
at the SUNI, Snowmass gathering, we were looking at air flow only.
=20
The study presents a number of possible cures for the air flow problem.
=20
The 1st time I drove my Tiger from Rochester NY to a Buffalo car show I =
park the Tiger, shut the engine off and it puked, marking its spot. =
Back then you could get the good Prestone dry chemical engine flush so I =
flushed the engine which helped. I also had to spend about an hour =
flushing and back flushing the heater core until it ran clear. Later, =
I rebuilt a water pump with a Motorsport impellor and install a 6 bladed =
fan and I have not had puking since. =E2=80=9Cif it is not puking it =
is not over heating=E2=80=9D I do pop the hood if I get into slow =
traffic to let hot air out.
=20
We all have a different take on the Tiger Cooling situation and we may =
all come up with a slightly different angle of approach. Each =
approach needs to be written and exchanged so all can learn, understand =
and deal with this problem and possibly add new insight.
=20
I look at the Cooling Article as a starting point much like the article =
I wrote about the dipstick oil level conundrum.
=20
I did a quick experiment with an oil pan and oil pump pick up tube to =
see why the oil level always was higher than the mark on the dipstick. =
I found that the angle of the engine means everything to the oil level. =
About 3 degrees of the engine tilted back, the oil level is at the =
mark, about 3 degrees down tilt to the front the oil level is high.
This was a quick and rough experiment to answer a number of questions =
people on this List had about the oil level. I used a little =
precision but it was mostly a rough experiment; a starting point for =
anyone who might be curious to investigate it more. =20
=20
I see the same starting point with the Cooling issue. More details =
equals more understanding.
=20
Never stop being curious about the little details and always write up =
what you did and how you did the work.
=20
Ron Fraser
=20
=20
=20
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> On Behalf Of Larry Mayfield =
via Tigers
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2022 12:22 PM
To: 'LARRY PAULICK' <lpaulick1@verizon.net>; 'Owain Lloyd' =
<owain.lloyd@gmail.com>
Cc: tigers@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Thank you for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your =
suggestion, i.e. =E2=80=9CTiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D =
and it was the first thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and =
will do a more detailed review for myself as a bit of time goes on.=20
I must say these experimenters did a pretty fair job at setting up and =
conducting the experiment and making comparisons. I am going to comment =
of the state of rigor for the experiment and what the, what I call =
missing, elements of the experiment, could mean to the final results. =
It is going to be long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol.=20
=20
It was not very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be =
pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant =
conditions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results =
which do not seem to have been addressed as the =E2=80=9CWhy does it =
overheat at idle?=E2=80=9D question, at least, I think that was the =
question. So, just who the dickens am I to question anything that these =
men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager for a =
large Aerospace company and did a lot of test analyses preceded by test =
design to make sure that the UUT was set up to produce the spec =
conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectly as could be =
determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed good.=20
A. The first thing was just how bad was the engine over heating at idle? =
The conditions should have contained a detailed description of the same =
parameters used in the test. The atmospheric conditions, the absolute =
air temperature, the absolute air pressure (not baro), the humidity, and =
altitude, entering the system. The system is defined as everything =
surrounding the vehicle. Why is this important? Well, the conditions =
need to be replicated each time a test run is made. If you want to know =
that the changes made later have an effect, plus or minus. Take =
humidity, humid air has less air in it, lol. Water vapor is less dense =
that the atmospheric make up and that means that the heat transfer rate =
is altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed by the mass of coolant flowing =
both in the system and then into the ambient air. The cooling air =
enthalpy and entropy can be calculated, with the help of =
=E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts with this data as to how well =
the ambient can cool something. Flow rate of the cooling air is a key =
element but so is the actual mass of the air (with humidity) that flows =
through the radiator and into the engine compartment, and then into the =
surrounding ambient air. Heat only flows from hot to cold and the =
smaller the difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the air =
flow rate can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at =
seal level with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is =
the mass of and the particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is =
important If the test was conducted in a closed room for the idle =
issue, then the air was a few degrees warmer. If outside, the temp and =
abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the humidity to know how well =
the system was performing.=20
B. The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As has been =
stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator =
antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from freezing, it =
also increases the boiling point. But it also adds protection to the =
iron and aluminum and other metallic components through which the =
coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents of the coolant could be =
made to determine just how effective it is as a heat transfer mechanism =
both in the engine and radiator at operating conditions. The flow rate =
through the radio need quantifying: a flow meter placed into the =
radiator water pump feed would be an excellent place to start. The flow =
rate with coolant out and the exit temperature and pressure measured, =
And the ambient conditions at that time, a better analysis of any =
changes can be made. It should be noted that there are two other =
methods of cooling that come into play as well. That is convection and =
conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, the oil in the pan =
and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant in it all come into =
play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the materials need to be =
acquired along with their surface area and external conditions found in =
order to get an accurate analysis. Another is radiation from the =
surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the infrared heat so to =
speak send heat out as photons heating everything the radiation touches. =
And convection, the air that cools the exterior of the engine as well as =
the engine bay must have air flow to remove the heat: those surfaces =
all need to be monitored as well. =20
C. Lastly, for me anyway, is the state of turn of the engine. The air =
fuel ration needs to be monitored and the engine put into the best =
operating performance it can achieve. For instance, a lean burn is =
hotter, so if the AFR is high then as most racer know, the system will =
melt pistons (been there, done that). The stochiometric air fuel ratio =
needs to be the same for every test. At the best burn value. Even a =
too rich burn can cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp and air =
pressure should be monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition that =
leads to unexpected heat being generated. Flow meters on the engine air =
intake and fuel as well as air and fuel temperature are needed.=20
Was the experiment invalid? No, it was not. It provided useful, =
information that many had not through about and there are things that =
were made to that should have changed the results more than they =
appeared to change. I congratulate them for the effort they put into =
this!=20
=20
If I was to do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics =
for concise parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the =
effect of the changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega =
2560 module, a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful =
of pressure sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good thermodynamics =
textbook and go at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial data output =
capability which can be recorded as well as a serial plotter which can =
display and record all the data channels virtually simultaneously. All =
can be exported to excel if needed for individual parameter display. =20
=20
Or just drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time =
ago an dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider =
doing a repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for =
the notion that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer =
to the cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me =
approaching 81 years of age and slowing way, way, down.=20
=20
Mayf, twfs 210.779 mph out the back door=E2=80=A6=20
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net =
Tigers
Sent: Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Dr. M, check the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for =
Tiger Tom and tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point =
for finding that study, others may have a direct source.
=20
On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com =
=20
Buck, I live in the southern alps :)
40 Celsius and 2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and =
altitudes.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel =
Owain, have you encountered either high outside air temps or high =
altitudes when using Evans in your Tiger?
=20
Buck
=20
>=20
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM
>
Cc: Buck Trippel <bucktrippel@verizon.net =
Subject: Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Assuming all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the =
job in my car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. =
My car ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect =
radiator. As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead it is =
fine.
=20
My reason for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I =
struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it =
was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I could get =
a new brass one I would certainly prefer that.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <lpaulick1@verizon.net =
Another issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators =
are lighter but brass transfers heat more efficiently.
=20
When I redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass =
retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not affected.
=20
Also if you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed =
impeller type water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket =
companies sell them already set up this way, but you can buy just the =
impeller plate from Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. =
Pumping efficiency is greatly improved.
=20
TEAE did a study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This =
excellent engineering study is still applicable today and well worth =
reading, dispelling a lot of myths.
=20
Another design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion =
of the fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator =
then goes down to the ground and circles back through the front of the =
radiator, at rest.
=20
I know this for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air =
recirculating.
=20
I fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost =
plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air =
through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in =
motion.
=20
Bottom line it all works and I don't overheat.
=20
I have to laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up =
so much space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars =
and how they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another =
myth.
=20
On Jul 2, 2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <owain.lloyd@gmail.com =
=20
Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the tiger with the =
500hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so had to switch =
off even back to water and antifreeze. It worked sort of ok with the =
dale radiator but then I switched to another brand radiator and it just =
couldn=E2=80=99t keep the temps down. Pretty sure it would be doable =
with an efficient and lower power motor if all the other cooling =
problems were taken care of.
=20
Il giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers =
In August of the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I =
put Evans in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in =
front of a rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an =
almost 5-thousand mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La =
Crosse via I80/I90 to attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the =
way home. Temperatures were frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a =
test.
=20
The Evans did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its =
inferior specific heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the =
engine heat.=20
=20
The carb got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and =
the engine stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes =
above 4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the =
same AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly =
drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with =
plain water so I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred =
crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced =
the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion protection.=20
=20
I don=E2=80=99t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific =
heat (or ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is =
something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not =
do the job. From my experience I=E2=80=99d say one would have to be =
exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stock radiator system =
or with a more powerful engine which will place even more demand on the =
Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we drove on that =
trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot radiator =
fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a problem.)
=20
Buck Trippel
Ps I wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more =
detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =E2=80=93 I think =
it was published in both the TEAE and CAT newletters.
=20
=20
From: Tigers <tigers-bounces@autox.team.net =
Sent: Saturday, July 2, 2022 5:06 AM
Subject: [Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling
=20
Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless Coolant?=20
It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone who's =
using it as I'm considering it.=20
=20
Thanks in advance,=20
=20
Tym McDowell=20
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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Mayfield<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>This is an =
excellent review of the cooling article.=C2=A0=C2=A0 What we have here =
is a Thermodynamics problem and you are correct it needs more =
instrumentation to understand the data details.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Much more =
work is need to truly understand this problem.=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are way =
too many variables for most of us to comprehend and =
understand.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Tiger Tom and company where mostly looking at the air =
flow through the radiator; this was their main concern and =
objective.=C2=A0 Air flow is a major key to cooling but not the only =
key.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Some of this study started at the SUNI, Snowmass =
gathering, we were looking at air flow only.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>The study =
presents a number of possible cures for the air flow =
problem.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'>The 1<sup>st</sup> time I =
drove my Tiger from Rochester NY to a Buffalo car show I park the Tiger, =
shut the engine off and it puked, marking its spot.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Back =
then you could get the good Prestone dry chemical engine flush so I =
flushed the engine which helped.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I also had to spend about =
an hour flushing and back flushing the heater core until it ran =
clear.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Later, I rebuilt a water pump with a Motorsport =
impellor and install a 6 bladed fan and I have not had puking =
since.=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cif it is not puking it is not over =
heating=E2=80=9D=C2=A0=C2=A0 I do pop the hood if I get into slow =
traffic to let hot air out.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We all have =
a different take on the Tiger Cooling situation and we may all come up =
with a slightly different angle of approach.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Each =
approach needs to be written and exchanged so all can learn, understand =
and deal with this problem and possibly add new =
insight.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I look at the Cooling Article as a starting point much =
like the article I wrote about the dipstick oil level =
conundrum.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'text-indent:.5in'>I did a quick experiment =
with an oil pan and oil pump pick up tube to see why the oil level =
always was higher than the mark on the dipstick.=C2=A0=C2=A0 I found =
that the angle of the engine means everything to the oil =
level.=C2=A0=C2=A0 About 3 degrees of the engine tilted back, the oil =
level is at the mark, about 3 degrees down tilt to the front the oil =
level is high.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'text-indent:.5in'>This was a quick and rough experiment to =
answer a number of questions people on this List had about the oil =
level.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I used a little precision but it was mostly a =
rough experiment; a starting point for anyone who might be curious to =
investigate it more.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal> I see the =
same starting point with the Cooling issue.=C2=A0=C2=A0 More details =
equals more understanding.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Never stop =
being curious about the little details and always write up what you did =
and how you did the work.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Ron =
Fraser<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Tigers =
<tigers-bounces@autox.team.net> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Larry Mayfield =
via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 05, 2022 12:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
'LARRY PAULICK' <lpaulick1@verizon.net>; 'Owain Lloyd' =
<owain.lloyd@gmail.com><br><b>Cc:</b> =
tigers@autox.team.net<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless =
Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thank you =
for the suggestion on finding the paper. I used exactly your suggestion, =
i.e. =E2=80=9CTiger Tom and tiger cooling study=E2=80=9D and it =
was the first thing that popped up, lol. I have scanned it and =
will do a more detailed review for myself as a bit of time goes on. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I must say these experimenters did a =
pretty fair job at setting up and conducting the experiment and making =
comparisons. I am going to comment of the state of rigor for the =
experiment and what the, what I call missing, elements of the =
experiment, could mean to the final results. It is going to be =
long winded, a natural tendency of mine, lol. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It was =
<i>not</i> very rigorous, in my opinion. Let me explain, lest I be =
pilloried. There are many parameters for the air and coolant =
conditions, the state of tune for the engine, that affect the results =
which do not seem to have been addressed as the =E2=80=9CWhy does =
it overheat at idle?=E2=80=9D question, at least, I think that was =
the question. So, just who the dickens am I to question anything that =
these men did? Well, I spent 30+ years as a test engineer and manager =
for a large Aerospace company and did a <b>lot</b> of test analyses =
preceded by test design to make sure that the UUT was set up to produce =
the spec conditions and thus the results as nearly as perfectly as could =
be determined. What these testers did was pretty dad gummed good. =
<o:p></o:p></p><ol style=3D'margin-top:0in' start=3D1 type=3DA><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo3'>The first thing was just how bad was the engine over heating at =
idle? The conditions should have contained a detailed description =
of the same parameters used in the test. The atmospheric conditions, the =
absolute air temperature, the absolute air pressure (<u>not</u> baro), =
the humidity, and altitude, entering the system. The system is =
defined as everything surrounding the vehicle. Why is this =
important? Well, the conditions need to be replicated each time a test =
run is made. If you want to know that the changes made later have an =
effect, plus or minus. Take humidity, humid air has less air in =
it, lol. Water vapor is less dense that the atmospheric make up and that =
means that the heat transfer rate is altered. Wha? Yes, heat is absorbed =
by the <b>mass</b> of coolant flowing both in the system and then into =
the ambient air. The cooling air enthalpy and entropy can be =
calculated, with the help of =E2=80=98steam=E2=80=99 tables and charts =
with this data as to how well the ambient can cool something. Flow =
rate of the cooling air is a <b>key element</b> but so is the <b>actual =
mass</b> of the air (with humidity) that flows through the radiator and =
into the engine compartment, and then into the surrounding ambient =
air. Heat only flows from hot to cold and the smaller the =
difference, the less heat is removed. For instance: the air flow rate =
can be measured at some altitude with a low pressure but at seal level =
with the same conditions of temp have less mass. Again, it is <b>the =
mass</b> of and the particulars of the air=E2=80=99s make up that is =
important If the test was conducted in a closed room for the =
idle issue, then the air was a few degrees warmer. If =
outside, the temp and abs pressure (psia) is needed along with the =
humidity to know how well the system was performing. <o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo3'>The engine coolant needs to be examined in detail. As has =
been stated, water is the VERY best heat transfer fluid. Adding radiator =
antifreeze is more than just to prevent the coolant from freezing, it =
also increases the boiling point. But it also adds protection to the =
iron and aluminum and other metallic components through which the =
coolant flows. An analysis for the constituents of the coolant could be =
made to determine just how effective it is as a heat transfer mechanism =
both in the engine and radiator at operating conditions. The flow rate =
through the radio need quantifying: a flow meter placed into the =
radiator water pump feed would be an excellent place to start. The flow =
rate with coolant out and the exit temperature and pressure measured, =
And the ambient conditions at that time, a better analysis of any =
changes can be made. It should be noted that there are two other =
methods of cooling that come into play as well. That is convection and =
conduction. The conduction of heat through the block, the oil in the pan =
and pan, the head(s), and anything that has coolant in it all come =
into play, so al the heat transfer coefficients of the materials need to =
be acquired along with their surface area and external conditions found =
in order to get an accurate analysis. Another is radiation from =
the surfaces of the engine. The heat signatures or the infrared heat so =
to speak send heat out as photons heating everything the radiation =
touches. And convection, the air that cools the exterior of the engine =
as well as the engine bay must have air flow to remove the heat: =
those surfaces all need to be monitored as well. =
<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3'>Lastly, for me anyway, =
is the state of turn of the engine. The air fuel ration needs to be =
monitored and the engine put into the best operating performance it can =
achieve. For instance, a lean burn is hotter, so if the AFR is high then =
as most racer know, the system will melt pistons (been there, done =
that). The stochiometric air fuel ratio needs to be the same for =
every test. At the best burn value. Even a too rich burn can =
cause excess heat. The engine air inlet temp and air pressure should be =
monitored for analysis of fuel burn condition that leads to unexpected =
heat being generated. Flow meters on the engine air intake and =
fuel as well as air and fuel temperature are needed. =
<o:p></o:p></li></ol><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:red;background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow'>Was the =
experiment invalid? No, it was not. It provided useful, information that =
many had not through about and there are things that were made to that =
should have changed the results more than they appeared to change. =
I congratulate them for the effort they put into this</span><span =
style=3D'color:red'>! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If I was to =
do this experiment today, I would use a lot of electronics for concise =
parameter recording and then do a deeper analysis of the effect of the =
changeable components. I would get myself an Arduino Mega 2560 =
module, a pile of temp sensors to stock on everything , a handful of =
pressure sensors, water and fuel flow meters, A good =
thermodynamics textbook and go at it. The Arduino IDE has a serial =
data output capability which can be recorded as well as a serial plotter =
which can display and record all the data channels virtually =
simultaneously. All can be exported to excel if needed for individual =
parameter display. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Or just =
drive and remind yourself that this car was designed a long time ago an =
dstuff just sometimes has to be accepted, lol. I would consider doing a =
repeat of the work done to date with my additions, except for the notion =
that I am not in the twilight of my years, but rather closer to the =
cinderela time, the clock is ticking now for sure at me approaching 81 =
years of age and slowing way, way, down. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Mayf, twfs =
210.779 mph out the back door=E2=80=A6 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net";>tigers-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>> <b>On Behalf Of </b>LARRY PAULICK via Tigers<br><b>Sent:</b> =
Sunday, July 3, 2022 6:40 AM<br><b>To:</b> Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com";>owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>><br><b=
>Cc:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net";>tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Sub=
ject:</b> Re: [Tigers] Evans Waterless =
Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dr. M, check =
the Tigers East Alpine East website or do a web search for Tiger Tom and =
tiger cooling study. This is a very good starting point for =
finding that study, others may have a direct =
source.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Jul 3, 2022, at 12:11 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com";>owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Buck, I live in the southern alps =
:)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>40 Celsius and =
2500m. But was doing the same at normal temps and =
altitudes.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Il =
giorno sab 2 lug 2022 alle 22:13 Buck Trippel <<a =
href=3D"mailto:bucktrippel@verizon.net";>bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>> =
ha scritto:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Owain, have =
you encountered either high outside air temps or high altitudes when =
using Evans in your Tiger?<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Buck<o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b>From:</b>=
Owain Lloyd <<a href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> <br><b>Sent:</b> =
Saturday, July 2, 2022 8:42 AM<br><b>To:</b> LARRY PAULICK <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lpaulick1@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@verizon.net</a>><br><b>Cc:</b> Buck =
Trippel <<a href=3D"mailto:bucktrippel@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">bucktrippel@verizon.net</a>>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
[Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Assuming =
all those things are done, evans is still not quite up to the job in my =
car. Most of those cooling tricks are for slow moving car. =
My car ran too hot even at speed with evans and the less than perfect =
radiator. As I said, with a better radiator or with water instead =
it is fine.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>My reason =
for preferring brass is that it can be easily soldered. I =
struggled on for a long time with my brass radiator but eventually it =
was just too stress fatigued and needed frequent repair. If I =
could get a new brass one I would certainly prefer =
that.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Il giorno =
sab 2 lug 2022 alle 17:36 LARRY PAULICK <<a =
href=3D"mailto:lpaulick1@verizon.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">lpaulick1@verizon.net</a>> ha =
scritto:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Another =
issue is aluminum versus brass radiators. Aluminum radiators are =
lighter but brass transfers heat more =
efficiently.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>When I =
redid my tiger, I used a three row versus a stock two row brass =
retaining the top, bottom, and sides so that the fit was not =
affected.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Also if =
you're replacing or having overheating problems, a closed impeller type =
water pump is much more efficient. Some aftermarket companies sell them =
already set up this way, but you can buy just the impeller plate from =
Summit for a very low price and install it yourself. Pumping efficiency =
is greatly improved.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>TEAE did a =
study many years ago on all aspects of cooling. This excellent =
engineering study is still applicable today and well worth reading, =
dispelling a lot of myths.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Another =
design problem with the tiger is that there is no lower portion of the =
fan shroud. As a result, hot air is removed from the radiator then goes =
down to the ground and circles back through the front of the radiator, =
at rest.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I know this =
for a fact since I did smoke test and watched the air =
recirculating.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I =
fabricated a lower fan shroud from sheet metal, and made a low cost =
plastic air dam that comes down about 4 inches, to help the flow of air =
through the radiator and continue towards the rear of the car while in =
motion.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>Bottom line =
it all works and I don't overheat.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>I have to =
laugh at the commentos who keeps saying that the V8 takes up so much =
space that that's why they overheat. Just look at today's cars and how =
they fill the engine bay and it becomes apparent this is another =
myth.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p><=
/p></div></div></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On Jul 2, =
2022, at 10:29 AM, Owain Lloyd <<a =
href=3D"mailto:owain.lloyd@gmail.com"; =
target=3D"_blank">owain.lloyd@gmail.com</a>> =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></div><div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Yep. I run in most cars with no problems but in the =
tiger with the 500hp motor I needed every bit of efficiency possible so =
had to switch off even back to water and antifreeze. It worked =
sort of ok with the dale radiator but then I switched to another brand =
radiator and it just couldn=E2=80=99t keep the temps down. Pretty =
sure it would be doable with an efficient and lower power motor if all =
the other cooling problems were taken care =
of.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Il giorno =
sab 2 lug 2022 alle 16:05 Buck Trippel via Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>> ha =
scritto:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>In August =
of the hot summer of 2019 (aren=E2=80=99t they all hot now?) I put Evans =
in a Tiger which has an excellent two row aluminum radiator in front of =
a rather stock 289. My wife and I put the Tiger through an almost =
5-thousand mile road test by driving from Los Angeles to La Crosse via =
I80/I90 to attend the TEAE United and then Route 66 on the way home. =
Temperatures were frequently at 100 degrees. So it got quite a =
test.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>The Evans =
did not boil but with hot outside air temperatures its inferior specific =
heat (to water) could not remove adequately remove the engine =
heat. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>The carb =
got so hot the fuel percolated (boiled) inside the bowls and the engine =
stalled lean. This weakness was exacerbated at altitudes above =
4-thousand feet. In Pueblo, with OATs near 100 I ended up on the same =
AAA tow truck twice on the same day. I then gave up and reluctantly =
drained maybe half of the the costly coolant out, replacing it with =
plain water so I could get home. However the percolation reoccurred =
crossing the Mojave in the 115 degree August temps. At home I replaced =
the Evans with water, adding Water Wetter for corrosion =
protection. </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>I =
don=E2=80=99t have the numbers off the top of my head but the specific =
heat (or ability to transfer heat) of water is 1.00 while Evans is =
something like .65 or only 2/3 that of water. For me, Evans just did not =
do the job. From my experience I=E2=80=99d say one would have to be =
exceptionally brave to use it, especially with a stock radiator system =
or with a more powerful engine which will place even more demand on the =
Tiger=E2=80=99s weak cooling system. (BTW in the Tiger we drove on that =
trip, we had removed the stock block under the carb that hot radiator =
fluid passes through which probably have made even more of a =
problem.)</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Buck =
Trippel</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif'>Ps I =
wrote up some of this years ago and I believe it contained a more =
detailed account of Evans heating issues on the trip =E2=80=93 I think =
it was published in both the TEAE and CAT =
newletters.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> Tigers <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers-bounces@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers-bounces@autox.team.net</a>> <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Dr. T. Y. McDowell<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, =
July 2, 2022 5:06 AM<br><b>To:</b> Tiger's List <<a =
href=3D"mailto:tigers@autox.team.net"; =
target=3D"_blank">tigers@autox.team.net</a>><br><b>Subject:</b> [=
Tigers] Evans Waterless Cooling</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Is anyone out there in Tigerland using Evans Waterless =
Coolant? </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>It has a boiling point of 375 (F). I'd like to hear from anyone =
who's using it as I'm considering =
it. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Thanks in advance, </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif;color:#33333=
3'>Tym McDowell </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>_______________________________________________<br><br><a =
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d@gmail.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div><p =
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