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Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues

To: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>, trguy75@gmail.com, triumphs@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 15:45:12 -0400
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: triumphs@autox.team.net
References: <212395692.4852218.1539707232255.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <212395692.4852218.1539707232255@mail.yahoo.com> <1667dd08131-1ec3-2e80@webjas-vad149.srv.aolmail.net>
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..agreed   :-)     but..   (gotta' throw in on caveat)
they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same .... 
variations the meters don't respond to
EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as 'noise' 
via the cross port in the manifold.

Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still use  
the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?
(usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)

v/r

ptegler


On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY wrote:
> First off, let me say that if you don't have a flow meter, using the 
> hose/listening method works well enough for our primitive engines.  
> But the meter will provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow 
> meter effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not trying 
> to get an absolute calibration.  We want a relative calibration and if 
> both carbs behave the same with the flow meter in place they are set 
> the same.  And that is the end result desired.
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
> To: dave1massey <dave1massey@cs.com>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>; 
> triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
> agreed.... especially considering that no one stated the human ear was 
> 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....
> Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs (greater than two)   
> EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on 
> a Triumph 6
> NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On most bike engines 
> you use multiple water columns via taps on the sides of the carbs 
> specifically designed to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's 
> none have a balance port in the intake manifold so no 'cross 
> contamination ' from air flow via another carb. Block one of four bike 
> carbs and the engine will slow very noticeably.
>
> sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a time) but neither 
> is 'as is' when running. When you place the meter over the carb throat 
> you change the depression and running position of the piston in the 
> throat.  Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting the carb 
> operations, both air AND fuel.  when you slow down the air velocity it 
> doesn't pull as much fuel, and starts consuming air from the other 
> carb via the balance port in the manifold etc etc.
>
> You need to use whatever method best suites your sensibilities. As too 
> the repercussions of you procedures. Each case is different, each case 
> has different expediencies, habits and results   :-)
>
> ptegler
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DAVID MASSEY <dave1massey@cs.com>
> To: ptegler <ptegler@verizon.net>; trguy75 <trguy75@gmail.com>; 
> triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
>
>     Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air
>     flow at idle? One of those little flow meters?
>     NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off
>     the air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle
>     changes....so the balance tube in the manifold sucks from the
>     other carb, bypassing the fuel pull.
>
>
> What are you talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the airflow 
> meter but you are affecting both carbs equally when you switch from 
> carb to carb.  If you get the same reading from both they are being 
> effected the same and have the same starting point.  The concept that 
> the human ear is better than an instrument specifically designed to 
> measure airflow is pure hubris.
>
> One thing to watch out for is assuming that since the carbs are 
> balanced at idle they are balanced under throttle.  Be very careful 
> when tightening down the linkage to ensure that both carbs open 
> simultaneously.  This is particularly important on the TR6-style 
> linkage that has built-in disengagement zones.
>
>
> Dave Massey
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Tegler <ptegler@verizon.net>
> To: Jim Henningsen <trguy75@gmail.com>; triumphs <triumphs@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am
> Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues
>
> ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't running smoothly'  ?
> Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? not running smooth while cruising?
> An old adage.... (well two actually)
> "..most carb problems are electrical..." and "..most ignition problems 
> are the carbs"
> Seriously though.... what method didyou use to balance the air flow at 
> idle? One of those little flow meters?
> NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about it...you're sealing off the 
> air to get the bubble to rise so of course the idle changes....so the 
> balance tube in the manifold sucks from the other carb, bypassing the 
> fuel pull.
> I was finally convinced by an old mechanic and have learned from 
> tuning more SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention.... use a 1/4" fuel 
> line as a stethoscope ...one end in your ear..the other just up 
> against the edge (not in) the carb throat. blocks minimal air... and 
> believe me you can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but you can also 
> hear the gurgle of the fuel flow!   Years ago I actually gave away my 
> flow gauges.
> Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought brand new NOS SU carbs to 
> replace mine after three rebuilds of the orig units. BUT...STILL had 
> the same issue...smooth speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull the 
> choke out and it ran fine, but had to push it in at closed or low 
> speed throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of messages on various LBC 
> lists....still to no avail.  Than one day at a car show.... I saw a 
> guy with an identical setup.... open big round K&Ns and a end plate 
> but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed off with duct tape.  In the 
> end, the problem was incorrect vacuum effects ...not enough air 
> velocity when the piston was mid/down as there was no restriction from 
> the air filters.
> hhmmm.... ok...
> http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm
>
>
> ptegler
>
>
> On 10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:
>
>     Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed down.  Finally got around to
>     getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, 
> testing
>     piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
>     two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
>     smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
>     Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
>     recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
>     professionally.
>
>     Joe Curto?
>     Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
>     Buy new (ouch)
>     Others?
>
>     Thanks in advance
>     Jim Henningsen
>     Ocala FL
>     61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
>     62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
>     75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
>     82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
>     2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
>        
>
>     **triumphs@autox.team.net  **
>
>     Donate:http://www.team.net/donate.html
>     Archive:http://www.team.net/pipermail/triumphs   
> http://www.team.net/archive
>
>     
> Unsubscribe/Manage:http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/triumphs/ptegler@verizon.net
>
>
> -- 
> Paul Tegler
> ptegler@verizon.net   www.teglerizer.com
>
>

-- 
Paul Tegler
ptegler@verizon.net  www.teglerizer.com


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    <p>..agreed   :-)     but..   (gotta' throw in on caveat)<br>
      they will perform the same...IF all cyls are performing the same
      .... variations the meters don't respond to<br>
      EG: valve sealing, compression, ring blow by all dismissed as
      'noise' via the cross port in the manifold.</p>
    <p>Just wondering...  Q for the crowd at large.... does anyone still
      use  the little rods in the tops of their carbs for balancing?<br>
      (usually little kits with a jet wrench and etc)</p>
    <p>v/r<br>
    </p>
    <p>ptegler<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 10/16/2018 12:58 PM, DAVID MASSEY
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:1667dd08131-1ec3-2e80@webjas-vad149.srv.aolmail.net">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
      <font size="3" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color="black">
        <div> <font size="3">First off, let me say that if you don't
            have a flow meter, using the hose/listening method works
            well enough for our primitive engines.  But the meter will
            provide greater accuracy.  Sure putting the airflow meter
            effects the flow through the carb (a bit) but we are not
            trying to get an absolute calibration.  We want a relative
            calibration and if both carbs behave the same with the flow
            meter in place they are set the same.  And that is the end
            result desired.</font><br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div style="clear:both"><font size="4">Dave Massey</font><br>
          <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div> <br>
        </div>
        <div
          
style="font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original
          Message-----<br>
          From: ptegler <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>&lt;ptegler@verizon.net&gt;</a><br>
          To: dave1massey <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";>&lt;dave1massey@cs.com&gt;</a>; trguy75
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";>&lt;trguy75@gmail.com&gt;</a>; triumphs
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";>&lt;triumphs@autox.team.net&gt;</a><br>
          Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 11:27 am<br>
          Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
          <br>
          <div id="AOLMsgPart_2_521494f6-2019-4a88-8cfa-6c3a2bf680f9">
            <div class="aolReplacedBody">
              <div
style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;color:black;">
                <div
style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:black;">agreed....
                  especially considering that no one stated the human
                  ear was 'better' than an instrument. BUT.....<br>
                  Take a look at any procedure for multiple carbs
                  (greater than two)   EG: quads on a bike or 8/12 carbs
                  on a Ferrari. ...even three DCOEs on a Triumph 6<br>
                  NONE suggest a flow meter blocking the intake.  On
                  most bike engines you use multiple water columns via
                  taps on the sides of the carbs specifically designed
                  to facilitate balancing. Compared to most LBC's none
                  have a balance port in the intake manifold so no
                  'cross contamination ' from air flow via another carb.
                  Block one of four bike carbs and the engine will slow
                  very noticeably.<br>
                  <br>
                  sure the 'premise' is you block both carbs (one at a
                  time) but neither is 'as is' when running. When you
                  place the meter over the carb throat you change the
                  depression and running position of the piston in the
                  throat.  Air volume vs velocity is changed...effecting
                  the carb operations, both air AND fuel.  when you slow
                  down the air velocity it doesn't pull as much fuel,
                  and starts consuming air from the other carb via the
                  balance port in the manifold etc etc.  <br>
                  <br>
                  You need to use whatever method best suites your
                  sensibilities. As too the repercussions of you
                  procedures. Each case is different, each case has
                  different expediencies, habits and results   :-)<br>
                  <br>
                  ptegler<br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  <br>
                  -----Original Message-----<br>
                  From: DAVID MASSEY &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:dave1massey@cs.com";
                    moz-do-not-send="true">dave1massey@cs.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  To: ptegler &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
                    moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a>&gt;;
                  trguy75 &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";
                    moz-do-not-send="true">trguy75@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
                  triumphs &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
                    moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br>
                  Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 7:34 am<br>
                  Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br>
                  <br>
                </div>
                <div id="aolmail_yiv6500343243">
                  <div><span style="color: black; font-family:
                      Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: medium;">
                    </span>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="font-family:arial,
                      helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">
                      <blockquote style="border-left:2px solid
                        blue;padding-left:3px;">
                        <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou use
                          to balance the air flow at idle? One of those
                          little flow meters?<br clear="none">
                          NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about
                          it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                          bubble to rise so of course the idle
                          changes....so the balance tube in the manifold
                          sucks from the other carb, bypassing the fuel
                          pull.</div>
                      </blockquote>
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <span style="font-size: medium;">What are you
                        talking about?  Sure you affect airflow with the
                        airflow meter but you are affecting both carbs
                        equally when you switch from carb to carb.  If
                        you get the same reading from both they are
                        being effected the same and have the same
                        starting point.  The concept that the human ear
                        is better than an instrument specifically
                        designed to measure airflow is pure hubris.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
                          clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;">One thing to
                        watch out for is assuming that since the carbs
                        are balanced at idle they are balanced under
                        throttle.  Be very careful when tightening down
                        the linkage to ensure that both carbs open
                        simultaneously.  This is particularly important
                        on the TR6-style linkage that has built-in
                        disengagement zones.</span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"><br
                          clear="none">
                      </span></div>
                    <div><span style="font-size: medium;"></span><br
                        clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div style="clear:both;"><span style="font-size:
                        large;">Dave Massey</span><br clear="none">
                      <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div> <br clear="none">
                    </div>
                    <div class="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt2701170847"
                      id="aolmail_yiv6500343243yqt08724">
                      <div style="font-family:arial,
                        helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black;">-----Original
                        Message-----<br clear="none">
                        From: Paul Tegler &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";
                          moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a>&gt;<br
                          clear="none">
                        To: Jim Henningsen &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:trguy75@gmail.com";
                          moz-do-not-send="true">trguy75@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
                        triumphs &lt;<a
removedlink__10e473d8-cb03-4af3-adba-32298f995911__href="mailto:triumphs@autox.team.net";
                          
moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<br
                          clear="none">
                        Sent: Tue, Oct 16, 2018 3:16 am<br clear="none">
                        Subject: Re: [TR] 61 TR3A SU H6 Carb Issues<br
                          clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        <div
id="aolmail_yiv6500343243AOLMsgPart_1.2_b3d72249-8701-4264-8a12-6cac1217176c">
                          <div
                            class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolReplacedBody">
                            <div>ok....what do you mean by 'carbs aren't
                              running smoothly'  ?</div>
                            <div>Engine is not smooth?.. sputtering? 
                              not running smooth while cruising?</div>
                            <div>An old adage.... (well two actually)<br
                                clear="none">
                              "..most carb problems are electrical..." 
                              and "..most ignition problems are the
                              carbs"</div>
                            <div>Seriously though.... what method didyou
                              use to balance the air flow at idle? One
                              of those little flow meters?<br
                                clear="none">
                              NOPE NADA STOP right there.   Think about
                              it...you're sealing off the air to get the
                              bubble to rise so of course the idle
                              changes....so the balance tube in the
                              manifold sucks from the other carb,
                              bypassing the fuel pull.</div>
                            <div>I was finally convinced by an old
                              mechanic and have learned from tuning more
                              SU and ZS carbs than I care to mention....
                              use a 1/4" fuel line as a stethoscope
                              ...one end in your ear..the other just up
                              against the edge (not in) the carb throat.
                              blocks minimal air... and believe me you
                              can hear as little 1-2 cfm readily, but
                              you can also hear the gurgle of the fuel
                              flow!   Years ago I actually gave away my
                              flow gauges.</div>
                            <div>Eons ago..I got so fed up once I bought
                              brand new NOS SU carbs to replace mine
                              after three rebuilds of the orig units.
                              BUT...STILL had the same issue...smooth
                              speed cruising and it ran like crap. Pull
                              the choke out and it ran fine, but had to
                              push it in at closed or low speed
                              throttle. Spent a year+ and hundreds of
                              messages on various LBC lists....still to
                              no avail.  Than one day at a car show....
                              I saw a guy with an identical setup....
                              open big round K&amp;Ns and a end plate
                              but had his air filters nearly 3/4 closed
                              off with duct tape.  In the end, the
                              problem was incorrect vacuum effects
                              ...not enough air velocity when the piston
                              was mid/down as there was no restriction
                              from the air filters.</div>
                            <div>hhmmm.... ok...<br clear="none">
                              <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.teglerizer.com/mgstuff/a_stumble_at_cruise.htm</a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                moz-do-not-send="true"><br clear="none">
                              </a><br>
                            </div>
                            <div><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect"
                                moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler</a><br
                                clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <div><br clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <br clear="none">
                            <div
                              
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-cite-prefix">On
                              10/15/2018 7:40 PM, Jim Henningsen wrote:<br
                                clear="none">
                            </div>
                            <blockquote>
                              <pre>Ok, I thought I had this rebuild all nailed 
down.  Finally got around to
getting carbs balanced and set for correct mixture.  After new kits, testing
piston drop timing per John Twist you tube clip (great clip), and spending
two hours fine tuning air flow and mixture.  The carbs aren't running
smoothly.  There is something not right and I am throwing in the towel.
Don't have a reliable mechanic that I trust for this in Ocala.  Any
recommendations on a rebuilder to send these two to have them checked
professionally.  

Joe Curto?
Jeff Payla at Paltech - cant seem to get a response from him.
Buy new (ouch)
Others?  

Thanks in advance
Jim Henningsen
Ocala FL
61 TR3A  eager to enjoy driving it in fall in Florida
62 TR4 eager to have restoration finished
75 TR6 eager to have new race motor put in
82 Jeep ld reliable - get in and go
2002 Triumph Trophy 1200 eager to just get out and be used.
  

** <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
moz-do-not-send="true">triumphs@autox.team.net</a> **

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</pre>
                            </blockquote>
                            <br clear="none">
                            <pre 
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-signature">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
moz-do-not-send="true">ptegler@verizon.net</a>  <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" 
class="aolmail_yiv6500343243aolmail_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
moz-do-not-send="true">www.teglerizer.com</a>

</pre>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                        <br clear="none">
                      </div>
                    </div>
                  </div>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </font>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Paul Tegler
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
href="mailto:ptegler@verizon.net";>ptegler@verizon.net</a>  <a 
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
href="http://www.teglerizer.com";>www.teglerizer.com</a></pre>
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