[Shotimes] OT - Baghdad has fallen

[Ian Fisher]

While my views on this entire situation probably don't belong on a car
list and can't be explained in 10 words or less, I do agree with
everything Toolman just said. I felt the desire to post because I am
sure he is going to get flamed either onlist or offlist. I respect the
fact that he posted anyway while knowing this. In times like these, many
people remain quiet and let the seemingly favorable views dominate which
history has taught can be a dangerous thing.

And now that's said...I don't think that religion, politics, abortion
and gas mileage should ever be discussed on a car list...I signed off of
the V8 SHO list because it had turned into a circus and a myriad of
BS.No, I am not threatening to leave this list (I am not so arrogant to
pretend that anyone would care) ;) but I vote to keep the politics off
the list; I've been following the war since day 1 via the internet, TV
and my own research and coming to my own conclusions that are not based
upon the propaganda that is spoon fed to us.

Anyway..

If anyone cares to discuss this intelligently and open mindedly with me
offlist, I'll try to devote some time to it if I can..otherwise, its
probably a good idea to keep it offlist before emotions run too hot..

Ian
Not Anti-American
Not Anti-Troop (I don't think that anyone is anyway- we all know people
overseas and wish them the best)


-----Original Message-----
From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net
[mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Timothy Tyner
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 11:38 PM
To: shotimes@autox.team.net
Subject: Fw: RE: [Shotimes] OT - Baghdad has fallen


The murder of innocent Native Americans, not to mention
African-Americans, went on for far more than 2 decades (and many more
dead than even at the hands of Hitler).  Do I condone anything Saadam
and his regime has done?  Of course not.  But please do not paint the US
as some peace loving, all good, based on Christian values, always take
the moral high ground, etc etc.  If another country had stepped in to
stop the atrocities dealt to the Native Americans at the hands of this
countries leadership, and had brought war to this soil, and was killing
inncont women and children, simply as a neccesity of war, what tune
would the American people be singing?  Did peace give 'us' this country
you ask?  No.  It was biult on the burial mounds of million of men women
and children who had the unfortunate circumstance of living here
for hundreds of years before 'America' was 'discovered'.   You are
right, as
long as man rules, war will be a part of humanity.  But hey, at least
you can watch your football programs.

Toolman

-------Original Message-------

From: Timothy L. Sorrells
Date: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 13:45:55
To: VBN Media
Cc: Shotimes
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] OT - Baghdad has fallen

I'd like to be politically correct, but sorry, it's just not me.

I understand that Al-Jazeer and Abu Dhabi tv are carrying coverage. I
also understand the severity of the issue. At the same time, I'm
remembering 2 planes hitting the twin towers, one hitting the pentagon
and one hitting the ground in Pennsylvania. Watching as people jumped
out of the World Trade Center versus burning to death like several
thousands did on September 11th, 2001.

I also see the people that have survived in this war, the children who
are starving to death because Mr. Saddam had to have a golden
chandelier, golden water spouts, and several lavish mansions. Also the
plight of the majority Shiite Muslims that have been persecuted by a
ruthless dictator for 2 decades.

The majority of us, myself included, cannot even conceive the notion of
how these people lived and died. They have been involved in war for the
last 30 years.

We may not find chemical weapons. We may not find proof of chemical
weapons, so what is what I say. Saddam Hussein has committed so many
crimes to humanity since he started ruling, he should have been gone a
decade ago.

But my earlier comment may have been misunderstood. The rest of the ARAB
world see's this as agression from the US. I've read so many articles of
people wanting to join Iraq in the fight, or becoming suicide bombers.
They are blind to see that we are trying to help a country whose leader
kills his own people and threatens to kill them. Does George Bush tell
you that you will die if you do not fight? No, I think not. Does the
military fire grenades at you because you are trying to be free? No,
again.

Wake up!!! Peace has never worked, never will, sorry, but the truth as I
see it. Hitler benefitted for years because people wanted to be
peaceful, then looked what happened. What about those innocent millions
who died? And, the innocent people who Saddam's Regime have killed.

Oh yeah, did peace give us this country? Did peace stop slavery? Answer
to those both, I think you know.

No, I don't like the idea of war, just like everyone else. But it's a
necessity of humanity and it will always be a part of our lives, like it
or not.

But hey, I'm thankful I am free and can watch the NFL, or what ever
program I want and not brainwashed by Iraqi tv.

-----Original Message-----
From: VBN Media [mailto:vbnmedia@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 1:14 PM
To: Timothy L. Sorrells
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] OT - Baghdad has fallen


not to rain on your parade Timothy, but the pictures
from inside Iraq's hospital are not as inspiring. we
have killed and maimed a lot of folks, wiping out
entire families and decimating a lot of property.
thousands killed (including military) and many
hundreds of women and children killed. try to burn
that reality into your mind. i join you in hoping for
the best possible outcome under the circumstances, but
as you may someday realize, people who opposed the
invasion has real reasons for it. this is not the
NFL.

floyd
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