[Shotimes] RE: 22/25 Sway Bar Combination

Mon, 22 Dec 2003 23:41:15 -0500

OHH OHH Im in on this one! Who's collecting the Money?

Kirk J Doucette
NESHOC President
Stormtrooper-97 White

-----Original Message-----
From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net [mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.team.net]On
Behalf Of Ron Porter
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:19 PM
To: shotimes@autox.team.net
Subject: RE: [Shotimes] RE: 22/25 Sway Bar Combination

I said that I couldn't feel the difference on the street......and I said
that if I feel anything, it will be on the track.

I have done a few track events, and I have been able to fumble my way around
the track on occasion......

My point....which I was actually being KIND about.....is that many people on
this list are absolutely full of crapola when they claim that the SHO is an
understeering PIG, and that they notice "wonderful" changes in handling when
they change a bar by 2mm. Now, they are folks that have never done a track
or autocross, and my first...second...third thought is to basically tell
them that they are ignorant f**ks who can't drive, and changing bars is a
waste of money that would be better spent on a driving school with their
STOCK SHO.....which has far more ability in STOCK form than their driving
skills.

But, on that particular day, I was trying to be nice.

Nonetheless, a 2mm bar change has NO discernible difference on the
street...on my streets, anyway, where the most interesting road are the
on/off ramps on the Interstate.

If you have a track car set up with a razor-sharp situation, sure....you
will feel it. A 3,300-3,500 # car with rubber bushings, 1-3-5 passengers,
0-200 #s in the trunk, varying road composition and surface quality, 1-18
gallons of gas in the tank, a 20-degree difference since the last time the
tire pressure was checked, etc, etc means that a 2mm bar difference doesn't
mean a flying f**k in handling feel between today and yesterday.

Come out to the CA Convention, let's see how a 7X SCCA Camp fares with the
rest of us. And I trust this is a 7X SCCA champ on the track, and not around
the cones in a parking lot.

As I and another 10,000 or so folks have stated.....sway bar setups for the
street & track bear NO relation to what is needed in autocross. If you are a
7X autocross champ, just get outta the damn way at Thunderhill!!

Ron Porter

-----Original Message-----
From: Leigh Smith [mailto:leighsm@comcast.com]
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 8:09 PM
To: Ron Porter; shotimes@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Shotimes] RE: 22/25 Sway Bar Combination

Frankly Ron;
IMNSHO that is exactly what I said, that the cornering gains would not
amount to jack...(probably) and yet the difference in ride on the street was
very noticeable.
The need for a 26mm bar on the street is all in the drivers head.
And if you can't feel the difference of 2mm on a sway bar, you better get
off the race track 'cause that is a 20% force difference.
If you can't feel that, you'll either wind up in the weeds or with your
doors blown off.
(Gauntlet thrown)
Challenge anyone?
Leigh

P.S.
Make sure you know who you're messing with, before you put your mouth into
gear....
(7 x Divisional SCCA Champion)

Yah I'm testy today!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron Porter" <ronporter@prodigy.net>
To: <shotimes@autox.team.net>
Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 1:39 AM
Subject: [Shotimes] RE: 22/25 Sway Bar Combination

> Frankly, IMNSHO, folks who claim that they feel a 2mm bar change
difference
> on the street are the same folks that will swear that more intake noise
> gives them more HP!!
>
> I have a few constant-radius (man, that is unusual!!) off-ramps, and I
never
> felt a difference going from the stock bamboo sticks on my '95 to the
224/26
> setup, nor did I feel a difference when I went from the stock 24/23 setup
on
> this '94 to the 24/26 setup. Yeah, the stiffer feel over bumps shows up,
but
> cornering gains just ain't there.
>
> Both cars had Eibachs. The '95 with Konis/AL SFBs/H-brace, this '94 with
> Tokicos/ SFCs/AL SFBs. Tires mattered more than anything.
>
> The track difference may matter, as I'll find out at Thunderhill, but I
> doubt that the street stuff will show the 24-to-22 difference.
>
> 24/26 worked fine on the stock '89-'90s, and it has worked on Gen 2s for
me.
> It will be no BFD for them to drop in the 22mm during the clutch job, so
> we'll see.
>
> Ron Porter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Leigh Smith [mailto:leighsm@comcast.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 11:04 PM
> To: Ron Porter; shotimes@autox.team.net
> Subject: Re: 22/25 Sway Bar Combination
>
>
> Ron;
> You may want to try the 22/25 mm bar setup for the street. The cop car
rear
> bar setup is only roughly 20% softer in roll than the 24/26 bar setup. It
> got rid of what I considered an annoyingly stiff rear bar. It had too much
> wheel hop / head snap on certain conditions & bumps. Those kind of forces
> upset the handling of the car. This is a very smooth ride & handling
setup,
> almost BMW like, and will absorb bumps in a bumpy turn without upsetting
the
> car. It has the exact same handling balance as the '89 24/26 bar setup or
> the stock 94 20/20 bar setup. More than enough bar for the street, or
> somewhat illegal speeds. Feels stiff enough for track use, and is more
> compliant / supple at the same time. The cop car bar can be hard to find
> though.
> Trackwise whether it would be faster or slower, I can't say. You would
have
> to do a back to back test. I would bet on the increased smoothness and
> increased driver confidence winning out over the older more skittish bar
> setup, specially if you ever hit a bump. Don't get me wrong, it still
feels
> firm, and there is almost no measureable difference in how far the
> suspension rolls. It just sucks up bumps better.
> My .02.
> Lee
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron Porter" <ronporter@prodigy.net>
> To: <shotimes@autox.team.net>
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:31 PM
> Subject: RE: Sway Bar ombinations was Re: [Shotimes] End links
>
>
> > Yep, I agree. I like the 24/26 setup with my other mods.
> >
> > I do have a 22mm front bar that I traded for one of my spare 24mm front
> > bars, so I'm going to install it when I do the clutch in spring, and see
> how
> > it feels with the 26mm rear bar.
> >
> > Ron Porter
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net
[mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.team.net]
> > On Behalf Of John J. Weidenbenner
> > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 8:59 PM
> > To: shotimes@autox.team.net
> > Subject: Sway Bar ombinations was Re: [Shotimes] End links
> >
> >
> > Mike is correct and reflects the evolution of the group over the years.
> >
> > Many of those mtx cars eventually got the 24 front for the street. I've
> > always cautioned atx cars that 26 rear addition was close to dangerous
> > oversteer under some conditions. Autocrossers and trackers would prefer
a
> > different setup.
> >
> > The 24/26 with PU rear bushings and links and 16x7.5 225.55 makes my atx
> > neutral to slight oversteer.
> >
> > John W.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "van Oss" <vanOss@centurytel.net>
> > To: "Mike Kopstain" <SHOtimes@midwestsho.com>; "Kirk Doucette"
> > <Kirk.doucette@verizon.net>; <shotimes@autox.team.net>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 6:47 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Shotimes] End links
> >
> >
> > > That's interesting.  When I first joined the list a few years back, it
> > > seemed the wide opinion was that the first mod (after airbox cone)
> should
> > be
> > > 26mm rear bar.
> > >
> > > VO
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Sure, if you toss the 26 on a car with a small front
> > > sway var and no other suspension mods, it might make it a little tail
> > happy,
> > > but on the same token, if you're the type of person that's going to
put
> > that
> > > bar on an otherwise stock car, you might have bigger problems to be
> > > concerned about.
> > > ~ Mike
> > > Midwest SHO
> > _______________________________________________
> > Shotimes mailing list
> > Shotimes@autox.team.net
> > http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
> > _______________________________________________
> > Shotimes mailing list
> > Shotimes@autox.team.net
> > http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
> _______________________________________________
> Shotimes mailing list
> Shotimes@autox.team.net
> http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes
_______________________________________________
Shotimes mailing list
Shotimes@autox.team.net
http://www.team.net/mailman/listinfo/shotimes