[Shotimes] Energy Suspension Bushings

[ianf@eden.rutgers.edu]

Apparently we have different ideas on "real differences". The gen3 has 
a different drivetrain of different weight and position. It also has 
different front lower control arms and spindles as well as different 
struts and springs, halfshaft lengths, etc. What might work on one car 
with one driver doesn't mean it will work on another car. I felt huge 
differences even between my 94 atx and 93 mtx with the same sway bars 
and that's within the same generation.

I am not going against the grain on this one here. Many others have 
spoken up in the past and said the same things that I have said. Mark 
Nunnally drove my car recently and remarked that it was really well 
balanced and that it seemed that the sway bar combo was really working 
well for the car. After I crawled out from under the dashboard and 
tried to stand, I had to agree. I tend to drive hard and fast, but he 
pushed my car much harder than I have (and he claims he was barely into 
it) and the back wasn't showing any signs of coming out. When I lose 
traction, I lose it at all four corners at once. This is considered 
neutral; as we know, the front losing ground first=understeer and the 
back=oversteer. I tried the 24mm and while the car cornered very flat, 
it was plowing too hard. The 20.6 induced snap oversteer (front rolled 
way too much too) whereas the 22 is a happy medium.

As Leigh said, this is a pointless arguement. Cars differ from the 
driver all the way down to all of the componenents of the car itself. 
What one person experiences with one setup obviously isn't going to be 
the same experience for everyone else.

For the record, I have 235/45/17 Sumitomo HTRZ-II tires with plenty of 
tread. These tires combined with my 17's have been some of the 
grippiest tires I've ever used.

www.eden.rutgers.edu/~ianf

for a list of everything else

Ian

> Actually, what works on a Gen 3 DOES work on Gen 1/2s. The only real
> difference is in the stiffness of the body structure, which SFCs on a 
Gen
> 1/2 can help alleviate (well, until you put SFCs on a Gen 3!).
> 
> Ian, maybe we need to understand your definition of "understeer". If 
a 24/26
> bar combo gives you a lot of understeer at "spirited" speeds, then I 
guess
> you are claiming that all Gen 1 cars (which had 24/26 from the 
factory) had
> objectionable understeer. Plus, if you noticed "that" much of a 
difference
> in 2mm front bar changes, there are some other factors at work here 
that are
> not related to the bars (unless you were an F1 test driver in another 
life).
> 
> As you add performance suspension components (solid SFBs, SFCs,
> Koni/Eibach/Intrax/Tokico, harder bushings, etc, etc) the general 
tendency
> will be to make the car more tail-happy. And too much tail-happiness 
is NOT
> a good thing for track or "spirited" road driving....ask the Gen 3 
guys with
> 26mm (or larger) rear bars who have spun out.
> 
> Kirk was politely asking about your tires, but if your tires and car 
setup
> are fine, you need to revisit your driving technique if you feel that 
you
> are understeering too much (and no, I'm not talking about autocross 
wit a
> need to pivot sooner). Keep in mind that heavy FWD cars like the SHO 
are
> going to always have a level of understeer anyway, just due to the 
weight
> and having the tires trying to steer and accelerate at the same time.
> 
> Awhile back, this was one of the "discussions" we had on the V8 list, 
with
> folks who felt that bigger rear bars were the answer. I again direct 
people
> to the picture (first pic) of my '99 at Hallett with stock bars 
through the
> Carousel. Observe the equal 1/2 tire patch of the left-side tires: 
> http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=329494&uid=168194
> 
> Ron Porter 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net [mailto:shotimes-
admin@autox.team.net]
> On Behalf Of Ian Fisher
> 
> First time? It's been discussed before.
> 
> I just sat here and said that I've tried different combinations and 
your
> response was that maybe I need better tires? ???
> 
> What may work well on the Gen3 (if that is what you are referring to)
> doesn't necessarily apply to a gen2 mtx.
> 
> Ian
> PS. My tires are just fine. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net
> [mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Kirk Doucette
> 
> Understeer?
> 
> First time I ever heard that one! Maybe you need better tires on the
> car.
> 
> Kirk J Doucette
> NESHOC President
> Stormtrooper-97 White
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shotimes-admin@autox.team.net
> [mailto:shotimes-admin@autox.team.net]On
> Behalf Of Ian Fisher
> 
> Well, I disagree. :)
> 
> I've tried more sway bar combos than one can shake a stick at. I've 
used
> a 24mm, 20.6 and now a 22 bar and the 22/26 wins hands down. It's
> amazing with the Quaife too. The 24/26 made the car understeer at 
pretty
> much any "spirited" speed.
> 
> One thing that I'll say is that the ES poly bushings suck. TPR is much
> better.
> 
> Ian
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