'Using far too much starch in your shorts I suspect.'
Pope Bob
That's the way I like it.
Jeff
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Re[4]: Hot Tigers
Author: rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET
Date: 9/8/97 9:41 AM
Jeff,
Using far too much starch in your shorts I suspect. You also have my
blessing to trash my e-mail without reading it if you find it too long,
boring, insipid, etc.
Pope Bob
>
> 'So all right Jeff, you have my permission and even blessing to leave
> in your 160 degree thermostat, at least till September 22 (the end of
> summer). You might even consider applying the $5 dollars for a new
> thermostat towards the purchase of a more significant piece of
> hardware; like a better fan, full shroud, etc.'
>
>
> Thank you, Pope Bob, for your blessing to use a 160 thermostat. May
> you be blessed in return, with a cool solution for your hot Tiger.
> Your suggestion of what to do with $5 is noted but is not needed in my
> case. On the other hand, I can think of a few imaginative ways you
> can personally use $5. By the way, in my garage is a used 195
> thermostat that I would like to donate to you for your car.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
> P.S. You write too much in your emails.
>
>
>
>
>______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
>Subject: Re: Re[2]: Hot Tigers
>Author: rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET
>Date: 9/5/97 3:04 PM
>
>
>Jeff,
>
>The things you offer certainly are worthy of some consideration. My previous
>hyperbole was just to stir things up a little with regard to thermostats
>vis-a-vis the overall problem. Obviously I don't think using a 160 versus a
>195 thermostat would buy you anything in the hot day in L.A. scenario I
>described. In that case you would be quite happy to have the engine maintain
>anything like 215F. And by the way, what's your theory as to how the opening
>of the thermostat relates to cooling capacity? I guess according to the less
>flow is better school, the thermostat ought to start in the open position and
>close as it gets hotter. Even if we subscribe to the more is better school,
>we still don't know how much it helps to be more open. The implication from
>the way you present it is that thermostat has to be fully open to be fully
>effective. I doubt this is really the case. I'll bet that within 5 degrees
>or so it goes from closed to full on. Just seems to work this way in my case
>because the water temperature seems to track the air temperature so close once
>it gets just a little over the nominal thermostat temp.
>
>I know that for most people the choice of thermostat is probably driven more
>by emotion than reality and I don't really expect you or anyone else to go
>pull their 160 units and put in a 195 just because I said to. What I really
>hope for is to redirect some of this thinking and effort into more useful
>channels. There are a lot of Tiger owners out there with very cool running
>cars. Pecentage wise, I think it's a lot better than 15-20 years ago when it
>seemed that virtually every Tiger, including mine, had some degree of cooling
>problem. I think the path to a cool running Tiger is now pretty well worn.
>It starts with how you build your engine (not too tight), and includes a good
>radiator, shroud, fan, and water pump. Cullen Bennett is one of those that
>has been able to push his Tiger's cooling capacity to the extreme. He has to
>be given a lot of credit for being able to not only keep
>his engine cool in the Arizona sun, but do it while running an air conditioner.
>
>So all right Jeff, you have my permission and even blessing to leave in your
>160 degree thermostat, at least till September 22 (the end of summer). You
>might even consider applying the $5 dollars for a new thermostat towards the
>purchase of a more significant piece of hardware; like a better fan, full
>shroud, etc.
>
>Bob
>
>
>> "In this kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160
>> degree thermostat and how much of the time your engine has spent
>> running at this temperature. This theory is sort of like running your
>> air conditioner and freezing your butt all winter long because in the
>> summer when it gets hot and you really need it, the air conditioner
>> roles over and dies. Some people seem to think they're putting all
>> their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when they need it I
>> guess. This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a cold
>> thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees. 195 is actually probably
>> ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity."
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> A few things to consider:
>>
>> 1) The shop manual recommends a 160F thermostat for summer and a 190
>> for winter.
>> 2) A 160F thermostat starts to open at 160 and is fully open at 180.
>> A 195F starts to open at 195 and is completely open at 215. If you are
>> worried about a marginal cooling system which one would you choose,
>> 160 or 195?
>> 3) Changing a thermostat is the cheapest change you can make, less
>> than $5.00. If it doesn't work, put the 195 back in and you are not
>> out of too much $$$.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>>Author: rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu (Bob Palmer) at INTERNET
>>Date: 9/3/97 11:02 AM
>>
>>
>>Jeff,
>>
>>A lot of us, me included use a Gano filter in the upper hose to keep the
>>"klinkers" out of the radiator. I check it every so often and clean out
>>some debris that otherwise might have closgged the radiator. It's easier to
>>clean it out of the filter than out of the radiator. If you engine is
>>thirty-five years old and hasn't been boiled, acid dipped, etc. then there
>>can be a lot of bad stuff coming out of the engine. I know one Tiger owner
>>in particular for whom this is a royal pain; he's constantly having to clean
>>out the filter. I was talking with Tom Ballou and one of his many good
>>ideas was to pump phosphoric acid through the block for awhile until it came
>>clean. I suggested maybe adding a little muriatic (aka hydrochloric), but
>>Tom thought this was too aggressive. He's probably right. If you could
>>get ahold of an acid pump, you could pump it through your motor just as it
>>sits in the car. In this case, with all the aluminum involved, I'd
>>definitely use only phophoric, which is actually a quite mild acid. In fact
>>you find it as an ingredient in soda pops like coke, etc. This is why a
>>pennywill get bright if you soak it in coke for awhile. Let's see, maybe if
>>we flush our cooling system with coke it will come out really well!
>>
>>So why did you think you wanted to own a Tiger? It's all these problems we
>>share that forms the basis for the "bonding experiences" that bring us
>>closer together. How can you beat, for example, the experience of a dozen
>>or so Tigers caravaning on a hot summer day through L.A. in stop-and-go
>>traffic? What better way to build empathy, comaraderie, etc. etc. In this
>>kind of situation, it doesn't matter if you have a 160 degree thermostat and
>>how much of the time your engine has spent running at this temperature.
>>This theory is sort of like running your air conditioner and freezing your
>>butt all winter long because in the summer when it gets hot and you really
>>need it, the air conditioner roles over and dies. Some people seem to think
>>they're putting all their cold time in the bank so they can draw on it when
>>they need it I guess. This is just some of my sarcasm regarding using a
>>cold thermostat; i.e., less than 180 degrees. 195 is actually probably
>>ideal in terms of engine performance and longevity. If you think you will
>>ever face the problem of being stuck in traffic on a hot day, and it's hard
>>to guarantee you won't, then get a REALLY BIG FAN, either electric or
>>mechanical or both. Then, if your engine stays cool when you're moving, it
>>will also stay cool when you're not.
>>Just a perverse thought regarding this problem vis-avis Tigers United: How
>>about a trophy for cool running. We'll just park all our cars in the hot
>>sun and leave them idling. The last one left running wins.
>>
>>Bob
>>
>>> I was over a friends house this weekend and was asking him about a new
>>> radiator that he put in his Mustang. He said it helped but was still
>>> overheating. He opened the hood and the first thing I noticed was the
>>> absence of a shroud, but was really curious to me and I had never seen
>>> before was filter installed in the upper radiator hose.
>>>
>>> Told him about the slow flow vs. fast discussions we've been having.
>>> Has anyone ever seen one of these items? And why would a "filter" be
>>> necessary? Geez, until I owned the Tiger, the only cooling advise I
>>> ever heard was flush the system and 50% antifreeze/50% water!
>>>
>>> JCarter
>>>
>>>
>>>______________________________ Reply Separator
>>_________________________________
>>>Subject: Re: Hot Tigers
>>>Author: Non-HP-rpalmer (rpalmer@ames.ucsd.edu) at HP-ColSprings,mimegw5
>>>Date: 9/3/97 8:59 AM
>>>
>>>
>>>Nice to hear a little more about this monster 351C Tiger. Obviously,
>>>there's more than one way to skin this cat. I presume you are giving your
>>>engine temperatures in Celsius. Few of us are really going to believe an
>>>operating temperature between 85 and 120 F. If your talking centigrade (or
>>>Celsius to be more correct) this would be a range of to 185F to 248F, and
>>>halfway between is 216F. I, and a lot of other Tiger owners have basically
>>>the same experience, each with very different equipment and motors. I guess
>>>it's natural that most of the people discussing this issue have some kind of
>>>problem. Diagnosing each individual problem is the challenge.
>>>
>>>The only small thing, but significant I think, I would take issue with is
>>>referring to the "copper washer to restrict water flow". Reducing water
flow
>>>per se never improves cooling. The value of a restriction is that it builds
>>>pressure inside the engine, albeit at the cost of water flow. As long as
the
>>>reduction in water flow is not excessive, then there's a net benefit. The
>>>trick is to add just the right amount of restriction, I guess only trial and
>>>error will work here.
>>>
>>>Bob
>>>
>>>>Tigers,
>>>> I am having a few chuckles with all the "Cooling of hot Tigers"
>>>>mail. I have a 4 barrel head 351 Cleveland in my tiger which I drive
>>>>to work every week day. The 351 gets 14 mph on a good week and normally
>>>>around 13 mpg. Needless to say I am burning more gas per minute than
>>>>most 260 or 289 Tigers; yet I don't have an overheating problem. I
>>>>do admit that when I spend 15 minutes in traffic the temperature gauge
>>>>goes up to about 1/2 way between the 85 and 120 degree mark. In normal
>>>>driving the gauge sets just slightly above the 85 degree mark. I have
>>>>a generic " Do Not Open while Hot Coolent Recovery" cap on the expansion
>>>>tank (which is completely full) and a plastic recovery bottle. Apparently
>>>>the cap has not opened this summer as there is green antifreeze in the
>>>>radiator, but the plain water half filling the recovery bottle is still
>>clear.
>>>> I do have a wider and longer engine compartment than stock, but
>>>>then again I have a bigger motor filling it up. I assume some of the air
>>>>can get around the motor and out under the Tiger.
>>>> The radiator is 4" wider than stock and it has a modern copper
>>core in
>>>>it ( which weighs a lot less than the stock English core).
>>>> Inlet and outlets were added to the lower left and upper right
>>>>to match the Clevland I/O. The original Radiator I/O are capped by
>>>>"Jones Plugs" ( these are rubber caps used by the plumbing industry
>>>>when they pressure test their plumbing). Probably need to replace them
>>>>as they are now 6 or 7 years old.
>>>> I have a 6 blade 14" steel fan that orginally supplied by Sears
>>>>for an aftermarket air-conditioner for a Rambler.
>>>> The thermostate is unmodified. The Cleveland has the stock OEM
>>>>copper washer under the thermostat to slow the water flow.
>>>> When running the Tiger for long periods of time parked in the
>>>>driveway ( say to charge a battery or when I am doing work that requires
>>>>the motor to run for a long time such as breaking in a new camshaft) the
>>>>Temperature gauge gets on up there towards 120. At that point I either
>>>> shut it off or set up an electric fan to blow air in the grill.
>>>>Sometimes I use a hose to provide a small water spray on the radiator
>>>>in these cases.
>>>> The Tiger has the stock Tiger II dual pipe oil cooler on it. >
>>> The Thermo-Tec that I wrapped the headers in has caused the
>>>>running temperature to increase 8 to 10 degrees. I did not rejet the
>>>>carb after wrapping the headers and it seems that I may have lost
>>>>1/2 to 1 mpg due to the wrap. Maby due to excess cylinder scavaging?
>>>> I have a reversed hood scoop but that is mainly for air filter
>>>>clearance. Some air comes out of the rear of the scoop below 35 mph but
>>>>air enters above 35 mph.
>>>> Most of my driving is in town at 30 to 60 mph; however I
>>>>don't waste any time starting from lights unless I am blocked by
>>>>traffic. I also don't have temperature problems at 90+ on the
>>>>highway. That is in Florida where the air temperature is 85 to
>>>>90 degrees with 85 to 100 percent humidity most of the year.
>>>>(when It is not raining)
>>>> My recommendation to Tiger Owners is to have your radiator
>>>>recored with a modern core. I have had a couple done for around
>>>>$130 at the local radiator repair shops. I truely believe that
>>>>the state of the art in radiators has improved in the last 30 years.
>>>>Lighter and more efficient. ( Air has a chance to get through the core
>>>>compared to the very dense fins of the original Tiger core.)
>>>>Jim Barrett Tiger II 351C and others
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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