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I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away
convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven says " A
red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to
the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me.
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
> Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing
> speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move
> off the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea.
> The overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is
> responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was
> talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed,
> in other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing
> organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the
> line then.
>
> Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe
> nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able
> to go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I
> bet that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
>
>> I understand the intent....
>>
>> When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the
>> understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted to
>> pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
>>
>> Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
>>
>> One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to
>> allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that
>> session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
>>
>> When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini
>> Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my
>> expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car
>> should use that information in order to make a safe pass.
>>
>> I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each vintage
>> group and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If the
>> rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's
>> "if you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to
>> be agreed before cars hit the track.
>>
>> It all comes down to communication.
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jim
>> Dallas
>> too many toys, not enough $$$
>>
>> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>> bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
>> To: britbits@netzero.com
>> Cc: 'FOT'
>> Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>
>> You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete
>> before reading.
>>
>>
>> I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the
>> "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed
>> that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was
>> traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want
>> to go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why
>> were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to
>> be when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed
>> and it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are driving to
>> the line, you don't need to be there. If the line is the only place
>> that the laws of physics permit your car to be, then you do.
>>
>> There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you
>> are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this
>> guy who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I
>> always passed him so closely. I, and the entire race group,
>> generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three times. He was
>> driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving instructor told
>> him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I considered him
>> the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on the the
>> track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when you
>> come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH
>> slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing but
>> respect for that, lift and wait.
>>
>> If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe
>> path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind
>> you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--
>> they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's
>> dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the
>> other driver was to blame, but you are responsible.
>>
>> We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with
>> picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed
>> you don't belong anywhere near the racing line.
>>
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
>>
>>> Steven,
>>>
>>> Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage
>>> events... so
>>> some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC
>>> games feel
>>> they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw
>>> "Days of
>>> Thunder" once too often ;)
>>>
>>> Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a bad
>>> idea to
>>> install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show
>>> them the
>>> video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Jim
>>> Dallas
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net [mailto:fot-
>>> bounces@autox.team.net] On
>>> Behalf Of Steven Belfer
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
>>> To: FOT
>>> Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
>>>
>>> Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I
>>> raced at
>>> Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding.
>>> This meant I
>>> needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let
>>> them cool so
>>> I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I
>>> was in the
>>> first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys
>>> what I needed
>>> to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine
>>> and feeling
>>> that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about
>>> done
>>> bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the first
>>> "Warm-up"
>>> session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved
>>> him to the
>>> left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty
>>> close to the
>>> line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON THE
>>> DIRT at
>>> full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly,
>>> threw some
>>> rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with a
>>> yellow
>>> P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his
>>> lap time
>>> when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise
>>> and made me
>>> angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my
>>> best to get
>>> my job done safely and get off
>>> the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if
>>> it's
>>> dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no prize
>>> money."
>>> I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of
>>> their
>>> machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag
>>> move and
>>> you're in big trouble
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I reread everything to see If =
I'm just being a jerk, and I come away convinced that while I might be a =
jerk, I'm right. Steven says " A red 2002 is approaching me =
and I waved him to the left and moved to the right a little bit, =
while staying pretty close to the<br><div><div>line." OK, that =
sounds really, really, really bad to me. =
</div><div><br></div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill =
Babcock wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Actually, it all comes =
down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your racing speed. You =
are not required or expected to move off the line if you are at speed. =
In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect you to =
hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a safe =
manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he was =
NOT at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. =
And in any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT =
supposed to be on the line then. <div><br></div><div>Bedding your =
brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe nor is it wise =
driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to go where you =
point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy didn't =
go into the dirt because he wanted =
to. </div><div><br><div><br><div><div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, =
Jim wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I understand the =
intent....</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">When I went through my drivers school in a =
vintage race group, the understanding was that you "drove the =
line". If someone wanted to pass you, it was their =
RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Or is responsibility not a word to mention =
in this forum?</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">One of the other racers shared an anecdote =
of "moving off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come =
in after that session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic =
rule.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">When I was active in Vintage I was in a =
close cockpit car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was =
difficult. But my expectation was that if I was signalling =
right.. the overtaking car should use that information in order to make =
a safe pass.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">I guess it's something that needs to be =
discussed with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers =
go on track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of =
rule apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a different =
line" that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the =
track.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">It all comes down to =
communication.</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"><span =
class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Cheers,</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font></span> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Jim</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Dallas</font></span></div> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"484395603-26092008"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">too many toys, not enough =
$$$</font></span></div><br> <div class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" =
lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <font =
face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Bill Babcock<br><b>Sent:</b> Thursday, =
September 25, 2008 10:51 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</a><br><b>Cc:</b=
> 'FOT'<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br></font><br></div> <div></div>You may not like this answer, so =
here's your opportunity to delete before reading. <div><br></div> =
<div><br></div> <div>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have =
been in the "douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a =
speed that did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was =
traveling at full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to =
go. So my question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why =
were you "pretty close to the line"? The line is where you need to be =
when you need to be there, in other words, when you are at speed and =
it's the only safe way through a corner. If you are <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: =
underline">driving</span> to the line, you don't need to be there. If =
the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit your car to =
be, then you do. </div> <div><br></div> <div>There's a reason why =
they say in any good driver's meeting "if you are not at racing speed, =
get off the line". Several years ago this guy who drove a car at what I =
considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed him so closely. I, and the =
entire race group, generally lapped him at least twice, sometimes three =
times. He was driving the line, precisely. Just where his driving =
instructor told him to drive. And he never deviated from the line. I =
considered him the most dangerous thing I would encounter in any day on =
the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In contrast, when =
you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, they might be 20 MPH =
slower than you, but they need to be where they are. Nothing =
but respect for that, lift and wait. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking =
the only safe path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming =
up behind you can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a =
corner--they'd have to stand on their brakes to do that, and that's =
dangerous in any racing condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other =
driver was to blame, but you are responsible. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are =
car shows with picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at =
racing speed you don't belong anywhere near the racing line. </div> =
<div><br></div> <div><br> <div> <div>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <div>Steven,<br><br>Unfortunately they use the "r" word =
when describing vintage events... so<br>some of the "kids" who loved =
Pole Position or the different PC games feel<br>they need to drive =
like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they saw "Days =
of<br>Thunder" once too often ;)<br><br>Aside from keeping an eye on =
the mirrors, it's probably not a bad idea to<br>install an in car =
camera. Next time.. grab an official and show them the<br>video. =
It's kind of hard to argue against a =
video.<br><br><br>Cheers,<br><br>Jim<br>Dallas<br><br><br>-----Original =
Message-----<br>From: <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.n=
et</a>] On<br>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<br>Sent: Thursday, September 25, =
2008 6:24 PM<br>To: FOT<br>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous =
driving<br><br>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two =
weekends ago I raced at<br>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new =
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<br>needed to heat up my =
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<br>I could have =
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in =
the<br>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys =
what I needed<br>to do and started in the back. I'm also running =
a fresh engine and feeling<br>that out as well. Anyway, after =
about 3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<br>bedding the brakes and I'm =
about to get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<br>session of =
the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to =
the<br>left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty =
close to the<br>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on =
the right ON THE DIRT at<br>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a =
little squirrelly, threw some<br>rocks onto my car and kept going. =
This guy was racing hard with a yellow<br>P1800 and not letting =
up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<br>when =
overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise and =
made me<br>angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I =
truly did my best to get<br>my job done safely and get off =
<br>the race track. I tell my friends and family, =
when they ask if it's <br>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's =
sport and there's no prize money."<br>I would say that most of the =
drivers are safe and respectful of their<br>machines and their =
abilities but all it takes is one douchebag move and<br>you're in big =
=
trouble<br></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div></body></html>=
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