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Okay now I get it.
What I have been refering to as "cliosonne" is actually "vitreous enamel"
(also know as champlev=C3=A9) and that is actually what was used in all fro=
nt
badges until the later Mk III badges that appeared with red paint.
What is important is that the vitreous enamel IS NOT PAINT.
Part of the terminology problem is that some paints are commonly referred
to as "emamel" but enamel paint is not what was used in the badges prior to
MkIII cars prior to around HBJ8L 39975.
If this is agreed I will make the appropriate changes to the guidelines.
M
On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 1:42 AM Curtis Arndt, <cnaarndt@gmail.com> wrote:
> Gary,
>
> With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.
>
> *Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next
> Concours Guidelines update. *
>
> First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel. Yes, th=
e
> Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are
> WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours
> Guidelines revision.
>
> Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>
> *"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings"
> mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red
> cloisonn=C3=A9 lettering inset in chrome." *
>
> Change to read* "**red enamel lettering"*
>
> This is where the confusion first arises!
>
> Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN=
1
> in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed
> painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
>
> *"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date =E2=80=93 Dec=
ember
> 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn=C3=A9 but was painted red
> instead of the cloisonn=C3=A9. These later badges have a smooth backgroun=
d
> instead of the pebbled background of the enameled badges." *
>
> Change to read* "**was not enamel but was painted red instead of the
> enamel."*
>
> Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns
> Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotiv=
e
> badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier automotive
> emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach participant=
s,
> is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a numb=
er
> of badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration wo=
rk
> for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on. Oh, and Karla's
> business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne. In the UK the best
> known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.
>
> I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
>
> This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...
> http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
>
> *FAQ... How was my emblem created? *
>
> These enameled emblems are often, *incorrectly, referred to as cloisonn=
=C3=A9*.
> Cloisonn=C3=A9 is an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are =
bent
> then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and
> create the design. I have yet to see an automobile emblem done with
> cloisonn=C3=A9. The process that is used is called *champlev=C3=A9* (pron=
ounced
> shomp=C2=B4-leh-vay).
>
> The champlev=C3=A9 technique involves applying enamel into depressions in=
the
> base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of
> automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also include th=
e
> beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.
>
> Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to
> any shiny color. The correct terminology is *vitreous* [glass] enamel. It
> is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F. Enamel can b=
e
> obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are created by
> the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK...let's try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings
>> with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't kn=
ow
>> when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out
>> lettering. Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in
>> cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red
>> paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true wi=
th
>> almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for al=
l
>> of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are
>> concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one or two
>> signaling lights, swag lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!)
>> state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was "use up what
>> was on hand".
>> I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with
>> their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
>> Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.=F0=9F=98=81
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
>> Suggested annual donation $12.75
>>
>> Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys
>> http://autox.team.net/archive
>>
>> Healeys@autox.team.net
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys
>>
>> Unsubscribe/Manage:
>> http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/healeys/cnaarndt@gmail.com
>>
>>
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<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Okay now I=C2=A0 get it.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto=
">What I have been refering to as "cliosonne" is actually "v=
itreous enamel" (also know as champlev=C3=A9) and that is actually wha=
t was used in all front badges until the later Mk III badges that appeared =
with red paint.</div><div dir=3D"auto">What is important is that the vitreo=
us enamel IS NOT PAINT.</div><div dir=3D"auto">Part of the terminology prob=
lem is that some paints are commonly referred to as "emamel" but =
enamel paint is not what was used in the badges prior to MkIII cars prior t=
o around HBJ8L 39975.</div><div dir=3D"auto">If this is agreed I will make =
the appropriate changes to the guidelines.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div=
><div dir=3D"auto">M</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Oct 19, 2018, 1:42 AM Curtis Arnd=
t, <<a href=3D"mailto:cnaarndt@gmail.com";>cnaarndt@gmail.com</a>> wro=
te:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">Gary,<div><br></div><div>With all due respect, sorry but you are mistake=
n on a number of points.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><b>Michael Salter..=
. Please make this my first revision for the next Concours Guidelines updat=
e.=C2=A0</b></div><div><br></div><div>First off, the badges were never Cloi=
sonne, they are red enamel.=C2=A0 Yes, the Concours Guidelines state that t=
hey are Cloisonne, the Guidelines are WRONG.=C2=A0 I am officially submitti=
ng an update for the next Concours Guidelines revision.</div><div><br></div=
><div><span class=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=3D"font-=
family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style=3D"font=
-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:small;color:rgb(34,34,34)">Cop=
ied from the Concours Guidelines...</span></span></div><div><span class=3D"=
m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=3D"font-family:BookmanOldStyl=
e;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></span></div><div><i><span class=3D"=
m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=3D"font-family:BookmanOldStyl=
e;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">"All cars up through the Mark I 300=
0s had flat Austin-Healey "wings" mounted on the front between th=
e grille and bonnet opening, with <u>red cloisonn=C3=A9 lettering</u> inset=
in chrome."</span>=C2=A0=C2=A0</i></div><div><br></div><div>Change to=
read<i>=C2=A0<font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><b>"</b></fo=
nt></i><b><i><span class=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=
=3D"font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">red enamel=
lettering</span></i><i><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">"<=
/font></i></b><br style=3D"font-variant-numeric:normal;font-variant-east-as=
ian:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:-webkit-auto"></div><div><br></div=
><div>This is where the confusion first arises!</div><div><br></div><div>Se=
condly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first BN1 in=
1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were indeed pai=
nted red.=C2=A0 Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...</div><div><br><=
/div><div><i><span class=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=
=3D"font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">"BJ8s=
produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date =E2=80=93 December 19=
66) had a similar badge that <u>was not cloisonn=C3=A9 but was painted red =
instead of the cloisonn=C3=A9</u>.</span>=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0=
,0);font-family:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt">These later badges have a s=
mooth background instead of the pebbled background of=C2=A0</span><span cla=
ss=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=3D"font-family:BookmanO=
ldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">the enameled badges."=C2=A0</=
span></i></div><div><br></div><div>Change to read<i>=C2=A0<b>"</b></i>=
<i><span class=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-fontstyle0" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:BookmanOldStyle;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>was not enamel but =
was painted red instead of the enamel."</b></span></i></div><div><br><=
/div><div>Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who ow=
ns Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automoti=
ve badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne.=C2=A0 Karla is the premier automoti=
ve emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach participan=
ts, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a nu=
mber of badges personally for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration=
work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was working on.=C2=A0 Oh, an=
d Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne.=C2=A0 In t=
he UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.</div><=
div><br></div><div>I hope that this clears things up once and for all.</div=
><div><br></div><div>This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website...=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html"; target=3D"_blank"=
rel=3D"noreferrer">http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html</a></div><div><=
div class=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-sf_content" style=3D"float:right;w=
idth:463px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;pa=
dding:15px 20px 20px 10px;background-image:initial;background-position:init=
ial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:ini=
tial;background-clip:initial;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div style=3D"zoom:1"><div i=
d=3D"m_-6646412867575244822gmail-content1" style=3D"width:439.844px;padding=
:5px 10px;overflow:hidden"><span style=3D"text-decoration-line:underline"><=
p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font size=3D"2"><font color=3D"#0b1a7a"><fo=
nt face=3D"Arial"><b>FAQ... How was my emblem created?=C2=A0</b></font></fo=
nt></font></p><p><font face=3D"Arial"><font size=3D"2">These enameled emble=
ms are often, <b><span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">incorrectl=
y</span>, referred to as=C2=A0<i>cloisonn=C3=A9</i></b>. Cloisonn=C3=A9 is =
an enamel process in which separate bands of metal are bent then applied to=
a base. These labor intensive bands encase the enamel and create the desig=
n. <span style=3D"background-color:rgb(255,255,0)">I have yet to see an aut=
omobile emblem done with cloisonn=C3=A9.</span> The process that is used is=
called=C2=A0<i>champlev=C3=A9</i>=C2=A0(pronounced shomp=C2=B4-leh-vay).</=
font></font></p></span><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face=3D"Arial"=
><font size=3D"2">The champlev=C3=A9 technique involves=C2=A0applying ename=
l into depressions in the base metal. These depressions may be etched, engr=
aved or, in the case of automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping proce=
ss can also include the beautiful design work that shows under transparent =
enamels.</font></font>=C2=A0</p><p><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2">Historic=
ally the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to any shiny c=
olor. The correct terminology is=C2=A0<i>vitreous</i>=C2=A0[glass] enamel. =
It is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F.=C2=A0 Enamel=
can be obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are crea=
ted by the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.</font></p><p style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0pt"><font face=3D"Arial"><font size=3D"2"><br></font></font=
></p><p style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0pt">=C2=A0<font face=3D"Arial"><font size=
=3D"2"><br></font></font></p></div></div></div></div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu,=
Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <<a href=3D"mailto:gbrierton@h=
otmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">gbrierton@hotmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont">OK.=
..let's try and clear this up.=C2=A0 As I understand it, the "flat=
wings with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I=
don't know when it stopped), had red paint of unknown
shade in the etched out lettering.=C2=A0 Along came the larger badges with=
MKII or whatever, in
<span style=3D"font-family:"times new roman","new york"=
,times,serif,serif,EmojiFont;font-size:16px">
cloisonne</span>. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red=
paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production.=C2=A0 As was true=
with almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for=
all of this is largely indeterminate,
at least as far as trim pieces are concerned...oh, and some major body par=
ts, like wings with one=C2=A0 or two signaling lights, swag lines, whatever=
.=C2=A0 Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!) state that the guiding principle in=
assembling our cars was "use up what was
on hand".</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,serif,EmojiFont">I c=
laim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with their o=
wners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:EmojiFont,Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif,"Appl=
e Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",NotoColorEmoji,"Segoe U=
I Symbol","Android Emoji",EmojiSymbols;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.<span>=F0=9F=98=81</span></div>
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;color=
:rgb(0,0,0)">
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>
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