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To all,
I=E2=80=99m not clear about who wrote what, but ALL Healey wing badges =
WERE CLOISONN=C3=89 (up to late BJ8s, starting in Dec. 1966, as stated =
in the current Guidelines)!!!!!!!! You can tell this because the red =
lettering color is transparent and you can see through to the backing.
This is why you cannot just repair the red on a badge. The =
Cloisonn=C3=A9 process requires high heat and would destroy the Cr =
plating =E2=80=93 they do the lettering first and plate with Cr =
afterwards.
I have had manly original badges restored by P-D Enamels in England. =
Yes, their name has =E2=80=9CEnamels=E2=80=9D in it, but the process =
they use to replicate original badges like the Healey winged ones is =
Cloisonn=C3=A9. They have seen a very large number of these and have =
restored them exactly as-new. They agree that the red =
=E2=80=98fill=E2=80=99 was Cloisonn=C3=A9!!! They restore them with =
this material.
Look at old defective badges. Where the color has started to separate =
from the backing it looks darker. This is because you are looking =
through a glass and can identify separation from the backing. Where it =
is missing in places it looks exactly like chipped out glass, not paint. =
It is much thicker than paint.
On the late BJ8s they went to paint. This looks totally different!!!
The Guidelines as currently written are correct!! DO NOT CHANGE!!!!!!!!
I=E2=80=99ll =E2=80=98go to the mat=E2=80=99 on this!!!!
Roger
From: Curtis Arndt=20
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:42 PM
To: gary brierton=20
Cc: Healey List ; Michael Salter ; Roland Wilhelmy ; Roger Moment=20
Subject: Re: [Healeys] Paint type
Gary,=20
With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of points.=20
Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the next =
Concours Guidelines update.=20
First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red enamel. Yes, =
the Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines =
are WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours =
Guidelines revision.
Copied from the Concours Guidelines...
"All cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings" =
mounted on the front between the grille and bonnet opening, with red =
cloisonn=C3=A9 lettering inset in chrome." =20
Change to read "red enamel lettering"
This is where the confusion first arises!
Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very first =
BN1 in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were =
indeed painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...
"BJ8s produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date =E2=80=93 =
December 1966) had a similar badge that was not cloisonn=C3=A9 but was =
painted red instead of the cloisonn=C3=A9. These later badges have a =
smooth background instead of the pebbled background of the enameled =
badges."=20
Change to read "was not enamel but was painted red instead of the =
enamel."
Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns =
Maxwell Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that =
automotive badges are enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier =
automotive emblem restorer in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach =
participants, is a neighbor and personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has =
restored a number of badges personally for me, and I have done some =
Bakelite restoration work for Karla for Pebble Beach cars that she was =
working on. Oh, and Karla's business is Maxwell Enamels NOT Maxwell =
Cloisonne. In the UK the best known badge restorer is PD Enamels, NOT =
PD Cloisonne.
I hope that this clears things up once and for all.
This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website... =
http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html
FAQ... How was my emblem created?=20
These enameled emblems are often, incorrectly, referred to as =
cloisonn=C3=A9. Cloisonn=C3=A9 is an enamel process in which separate =
bands of metal are bent then applied to a base. These labor intensive =
bands encase the enamel and create the design. I have yet to see an =
automobile emblem done with cloisonn=C3=A9. The process that is used is =
called champlev=C3=A9 (pronounced shomp=C2=B4-leh-vay).
The champlev=C3=A9 technique involves applying enamel into depressions =
in the base metal. These depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the =
case of automobile emblems, die stamped. The stamping process can also =
include the beautiful design work that shows under transparent enamels.=20
Historically the word enamel meant glass but today it seems to refer to =
any shiny color. The correct terminology is vitreous [glass] enamel. It =
is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 degrees F. Enamel can =
be obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. The colors are =
created by the addition of metallic oxides to the glass.
=20
On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton <gbrierton@hotmail.com> =
wrote:
OK...let's try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings =
with the Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't =
know when it stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out =
lettering. Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in =
cloisonne. THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red =
paint of unknown shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true =
with almost everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number =
for all of this is largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces =
are concerned...oh, and some major body parts, like wings with one or =
two signaling lights, swag lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from =
D.M.H.!) state that the guiding principle in assembling our cars was =
"use up what was on hand".
I claim no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with =
their owners for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).
Take it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.=F0=9F=98=81
_______________________________________________
Support Team.Net http://www.team.net/donate.html
Suggested annual donation $12.75
Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys =
http://autox.team.net/archive
Healeys@autox.team.net
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<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>To all,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I=E2=80=99m not clear about who wrote what, but <STRONG>ALL Healey =
wing badges=20
<U><EM><FONT color=3D#ff0000>WERE</FONT></EM></U> CLOISONN=C3=89 =
(</STRONG>up to late=20
BJ8s, starting in Dec. 1966, as stated in the current=20
Guidelines<STRONG>)!!!!!!!! </STRONG>You can tell this =
because the=20
red lettering color is transparent and you can see through to the =
backing.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is why you cannot just repair the red on a badge. The =
Cloisonn=C3=A9=20
process requires high heat and would destroy the Cr plating =E2=80=93 =
they do the=20
lettering first and plate with Cr afterwards.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I have had manly original badges restored by P-D Enamels in =
England. =20
Yes, their name has =E2=80=9CEnamels=E2=80=9D in it, but the process =
they use to replicate=20
original badges like the Healey winged ones is Cloisonn=C3=A9. =
They have seen a=20
very large number of these and have restored them exactly as-new. =
They=20
agree that the red =E2=80=98fill=E2=80=99 was Cloisonn=C3=A9!!! =
They restore them with this=20
material.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Look at old defective badges. Where the color has started to =
separate=20
from the backing it looks darker. This is because you are looking =
through=20
a glass and can identify separation from the backing. Where =
it is=20
missing in places it looks exactly like chipped out glass, not =
paint. It=20
is much thicker than paint.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On the late BJ8s they went to paint. This looks totally=20
different!!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Guidelines as currently written are correct!! <STRONG>DO =
NOT=20
CHANGE!!!!!!!!</STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><BR>I=E2=80=99ll =E2=80=98go to the mat=E2=80=99 on this!!!!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Roger</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style=3D"font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A =
title=3Dcnaarndt@gmail.com>Curtis=20
Arndt</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:42 PM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=3Dgbrierton@hotmail.com>gary brierton</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV><B>Cc:</B> <A title=3Dhealeys@autox.team.net>Healey List</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dmichael.salter@gmail.com>Michael Salter</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dsentenac.rw@gmail.com>Roland Wilhelmy</A> ; <A=20
title=3Drmoment@comcast.net>Roger Moment</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Healeys] Paint type</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: =
"Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; =
DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>Gary,=20
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>With all due respect, sorry but you are mistaken on a number of =
points.=20
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Michael Salter... Please make this my first revision for the =
next=20
Concours Guidelines update. </B></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>First off, the badges were never Cloisonne, they are red =
enamel. Yes,=20
the Concours Guidelines state that they are Cloisonne, the Guidelines =
are=20
WRONG. I am officially submitting an update for the next Concours=20
Guidelines revision.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)"><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: small; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; =
COLOR: rgb(34,34,34)">Copied=20
from the Concours Guidelines...</SPAN></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><I><SPAN class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)">"All=20
cars up through the Mark I 3000s had flat Austin-Healey "wings" mounted =
on the=20
front between the grille and bonnet opening, with <U>red cloisonn=C3=A9 =
lettering</U>=20
inset in chrome."</SPAN> </I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Change to read<I> <FONT=20
face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><B>"</B></FONT></I><B><I><SPAN=20
class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)">red=20
enamel lettering</SPAN></I><I><FONT=20
face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">"</FONT></I></B><BR=20
style=3D"LINE-HEIGHT: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; =
font-variant-east-asian: normal"></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is where the confusion first arises!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Secondly, all Austin Healey badges were red enamel from the very =
first BN1=20
in 1953 through the BJ8 at chassis no. 39975. After that they were =
indeed=20
painted red. Also copied from the Concours Guidelines...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><I><SPAN class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)">"BJ8s=20
produced starting around C. 39,975 (approximate date =E2=80=93 December =
1966) had a=20
similar badge that <U>was not cloisonn=C3=A9 but was painted red instead =
of the=20
cloisonn=C3=A9</U>.</SPAN> <SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)">These=20
later badges have a smooth background instead of the pebbled background =
of=20
</SPAN><SPAN class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)">the=20
enameled badges." </SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Change to read<I> <B>"</B></I><I><SPAN =
class=3Dgmail-fontstyle0=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: bookmanoldstyle; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)"><B>was=20
not enamel but was painted red instead of the =
enamel."</B></SPAN></I></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Karla Maxwell, a trained jeweler with 45+ years experience who owns =
Maxwell=20
Enamels will tell you, as she told me 25 years ago that automotive =
badges are=20
enamel and NOT Cloisonne. Karla is the premier automotive emblem =
restorer=20
in the US, is in high demand for Pebble Beach participants, is a =
neighbor and=20
personal friend of 25+ years. Karla has restored a number of badges =
personally=20
for me, and I have done some Bakelite restoration work for Karla for =
Pebble=20
Beach cars that she was working on. Oh, and Karla's business is =
Maxwell=20
Enamels NOT Maxwell Cloisonne. In the UK the best known badge =
restorer is=20
PD Enamels, NOT PD Cloisonne.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I hope that this clears things up once and for all.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is from Karla's FAQ section of her website... <A=20
href=3D"http://www.maxwellenamels.com/FAQs.html";>http://www.maxwellenamel=
s.com/FAQs.html</A></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail-sf_content=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12px; FONT-FAMILY: =
verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif; WIDTH: 463px; FLOAT: right; COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0); PADDING-BOTTOM: 20px; PADDING-TOP: 15px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; =
PADDING-RIGHT: 20px; background-size: initial; background-origin: =
initial; background-clip: initial">
<DIV style=3D"ZOOM: 1">
<DIV id=3Dgmail-content1=20
style=3D"OVERFLOW: hidden; WIDTH: 439px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; =
PADDING-TOP: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-RIGHT: 10px"><SPAN=20
style=3D"text-decoration-line: underline">
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=3D2><FONT =
color=3D#0b1a7a><FONT=20
face=3DArial><B>FAQ... How was my emblem created? =
</B></FONT></FONT></FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>These enameled emblems are often, =
<B><SPAN=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,0)">incorrectly</SPAN>, referred =
to as=20
<I>cloisonn=C3=A9</I></B>. Cloisonn=C3=A9 is an enamel process in which =
separate bands of=20
metal are bent then applied to a base. These labor intensive bands =
encase the=20
enamel and create the design. <SPAN style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: =
rgb(255,255,0)">I=20
have yet to see an automobile emblem done with cloisonn=C3=A9.</SPAN> =
The process=20
that is used is called <I>champlev=C3=A9</I> (pronounced=20
shomp=C2=B4-leh-vay).</FONT></FONT></P></SPAN>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2>The =
champlev=C3=A9=20
technique involves applying enamel into depressions in the base metal. =
These=20
depressions may be etched, engraved or, in the case of automobile =
emblems, die=20
stamped. The stamping process can also include the beautiful design work =
that=20
shows under transparent enamels.</FONT></FONT> </P>
<P><FONT size=3D2 face=3DArial>Historically the word enamel meant glass =
but today it=20
seems to refer to any shiny color. The correct terminology is =
<I>vitreous</I>=20
[glass] enamel. It is a true glass that melts and fuses around 1400 =
degrees=20
F. Enamel can be obtained as opaque, translucent or transparent. =
The=20
colors are created by the addition of metallic oxides to the =
glass.</FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT face=3DArial><FONT=20
size=3D2><BR></FONT></FONT> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV class=3Dgmail_quote>
<DIV dir=3Dltr>On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:31 PM Gary R. Brierton=20
<<A>gbrierton@hotmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=3Dgmail_quote=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex">
<DIV dir=3Dltr>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,helvetica,sans-serif; =
COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)">
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
calibri,helvetica,sans-serif,serif,emojifont">OK...let's=20
try and clear this up. As I understand it, the "flat wings with =
the=20
Austin-Healey script" commonly seen on BN1, BN2 and (I don't know when =
it=20
stopped), had red paint of unknown shade in the etched out =
lettering. =20
Along came the larger badges with MKII or whatever, in <SPAN=20
style=3D'FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: "times new roman","new =
york",times,serif,serif,emojifont'>cloisonne</SPAN>.=20
THEN, to really screw us up, those badges returned to red paint of =
unknown=20
shade, seemingly during BJ8 production. As was true with almost=20
everything involving our cars, the exact change VIN number for all of =
this is=20
largely indeterminate, at least as far as trim pieces are =
concerned...oh, and=20
some major body parts, like wings with one or two signaling =
lights, swag=20
lines, whatever. Reliable reports (from D.M.H.!) state that the =
guiding=20
principle in assembling our cars was "use up what was on hand".</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
calibri,helvetica,sans-serif,serif,emojifont">I claim=20
no expertise beyond owning Austin-Healeys and associating with their =
owners=20
for over 50 years (so, mainly the 6 cylinder cars).</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D'FONT-FAMILY: emojifont,calibri,helvetica,sans-serif,"Apple =
Color Emoji","Segoe UI Emoji",notocoloremoji,"Segoe UI Symbol","Android =
Emoji",emojisymbols; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0)'>Take=20
it away, Curt, Randy, Steve, et. al.<SPAN>=F0=9F=98=81</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: calibri,helvetica,sans-serif; =
COLOR: =
rgb(0,0,0)"></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<B=
R>Support=20
Team.Net <A href=3D"http://www.team.net/donate.html"; rel=3Dnoreferrer=20
target=3D_blank>http://www.team.net/donate.html</A><BR>Suggested =
annual=20
donation $12.75<BR><BR>Archive: <A=20
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target=3D_blank>http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</A> <A=20
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target=3D_blank>http://autox.team.net/archive</A><BR><BR><A=20
target=3D_blank>Healeys@autox.team.net</A><BR><A=20
href=3D"http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys"; =
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