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Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush

To: healeys@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush
From: Bob Spidell <bspidell@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2019 18:48:17 -0700
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: healeys@autox.team.net
References: <CABXhz8_sgPOQaRbkLUkyfoeAhFqSCW_qnOMh5sUsubNpoPbvOQ@mail.gmail.com> <868643B9AEFA40D9AD06A1435F70B8CD@DavidNockHP> <CAB3i7LJ-zaoYeYo9XYZSNALhxa-aiPdE175jtQFAeTGbtYfwOg@mail.gmail.com> <011a01d4ee1e$4ef69740$ece3c5c0$@gmail.com> <CAB3i7LKMUhE6-+JypKYF8Ri8n78CakguwJig87BFE2TBTfQOFg@mail.gmail.com> <DM6PR07MB4538A89058F9BB90DF351244A52C0@DM6PR07MB4538.namprd07.prod.outlook.com>
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To be totally a-retentive, water is called the 'Universal Solvent' 
because it will dissolve many /inorganic/ compounds--esp. 'salts'--as 
they are polar compounds (one side of the molecule is positive, and one 
side is negative, and the H+/OH- ions in water will 'pull' the salt 
apart into its constituent ions and dissolve it).  Water is a 
particularly lousy solvent of organic (non-polar) compounds; try mixing 
vegetable or motor oil with it sometime.


Water is not an oxidizing agent--it is the product of an 
oxidation/reduction reaction itself between hydrogen and oxygen--but 
when it has polar salts dissolved in it it does conduct current, which 
facilitates oxidation-reduction reactions (e.g. 'rust').  Distilled 
water will dissolve more salts than (most) tap water, as the tap water 
is already further along in saturation.  I've heard people say distilled 
water is 'ion hungry,' which, for the life of me I don't understand 
(unless they mean it will dissolve a bigger pile of salt than really 
hard water, which is true).


bs


On 4/8/2019 3:32 PM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE wrote:
> I have to agree with the theory that grounding can affect an alloy 
> radiator. If you have a problem with corrosion despite using corrosion 
> inhibitors then the problem is not the fluid component of the system 
> it is more likely electrolytic corrosion. Maybe the problem isn't 
> engine to chassis grounding, but radiator to chassis grounding. It 
> sounds like some effort needs to be made to isolate the radiator 
> (electrically) from the chassis. or to neutralize the electrolytic 
> forces in the system.
>
> Either keeping the radiator out of the electrical loop or assuring it 
> is on the cathode side seems to be a good idea since aluminum is much 
> lower on the noble scale than iron. In a positive ground system the 
> chassis is the anode and if the radiator is grounded to the chassis it 
> will also be an anode and will thus be subject to electrolytic 
> corrosion. (The anode, positive pole, in any circuit gives up 
> electrons which carry the electrical current. Loss of large numbers of 
> electrons weakens the atomic structure of anode material and causes it 
> to break down or corrode.)
>
> I don't think that distilled water is necessary and as a matter of 
> fact distilled water should be considered more corrosive than tap 
> water. Water has the propensity to oxidize most other types of 
> materials (universal solvent and all that) and distilled water has 
> more of that propensity than harder water because in that case it has 
> been partially saturated by dissolved minerals. The argument for 
> distilled water is that it carries no calcium or other minerals into 
> the cooling system which might eventually foul the heat exchange 
> surfaces. That is a minor danger and would only be a problem if you 
> were adding large volumes of water on a regular basis. If your cooling 
> system is tight it should never be a problem.
>
> Bill Lawrence
> BN1 #554
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net> on behalf of Michael 
> Salter <michael.salter@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, April 8, 2019 5:34 PM
> *To:* Robert Begani
> *Cc:* healeys@autox.team.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush
> Much and all as that sounds like a good theory I am having difficulty 
> with the logic.
> A starter won't work if an engine isn't adequately grounded and a 
> ground of sufficient size to operate a starter will definitely be big 
> enough to eliminate any EMF difference between the engine and the 
> chassis.
> I've had an aluminum radiator corrode to worthlessness after only 3 
> years, with corrosion inhibitors in the coolant, and have yet to hear 
> a realistic explanation for why it happened.
>
> M
>
> On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 11:56 AM Robert Begani, <rfbegani@gmail.com 
>
>     Back to the matter of using Distilled Water.  I discussed this
>     comment with my German/American friend who was installing a
>     aluminum radiator in his Lagonda Drop Head Coup.  He has owned
>     various European Vehicles with aluminum radiators, and classic
>     cars with aluminum radiators.  He cannot understand the need for
>     distilled water if you are using antifreeze which includes
>     anti-corrosion additives or using such additive separately. 
>     Furthermore, the biggest problem with alloy radiators is the
>     matter of a good grounded engine.  His experience the failure of
>     the alloy radiator is a poorly grounded engine which causes the
>     electric current to run to ground via the water in coolant system
>      hence destroy the aluminum being dissimilar metal.   So check the
>     soundness of the ground.
>
>     Bob Begani
>
>     BJ8 67
>
>     *From:* Healeys <healeys-bounces@autox.team.net
>     *Sent:* Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:51 PM
>     *To:* David Nock BCS <healeydoc@sbcglobal.net
>     *Cc:* Ahealey help <healeys@autox.team.net
>     *Subject:* Re: [Healeys] Radiator flush
>
>     " If you are installing a alloy radiator be sure and use Distilled
>     water"
>
>     Those are definitely the words of someone who "has suffered the
>     consequences" ...
>
>     M
>
>     On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 5:47 PM David Nock BCS
>
>         If you are installing a alloy radiator be sure and use
>         Distilled water.
>
>         The water flows thru the radiator top to bottom. It flows thru
>         the heater from the lower hose thru the heater returning to
>         the head.
>
>         Water will not flow backwards thru the heater valve.
>
>         David Nock
>         British Car Specialists
>         209-948-8767
>         www.britishcarspecialists.com
>         <http://www.britishcarspecialists.com>
>
>
>         *Sent:*Wednesday, April 03, 2019 11:10 AM
>
>
>         *Subject:*[Healeys] Radiator flush
>
>         Hello all, __
>
>         Preparing to install my alum radiator. Thought I would flush
>         the cooling system.
>
>         Which diretion direction does water flow? From block though
>         Shut off vavle into heater core, or through pipe and back into
>         block through the shut off valve?
>
>         Is my valve in open ir closed position? Heater controls not
>         reinstalled yet. Unit get hot so Ill asume open, but want to
>         confirm. Removed thermostat to help water flush ststem easier.
>         Im going to add extra hose and splice in a water hose bib.
>         That way I can remove it and put system back in place.
>
>         Im off this week, but the rain gods are laughing at me. So I'm
>         just getting everything ready for the sweet spot of having
>         time and sunshine so I can back the car out of the garage and
>         flush the system. I plan to drain the anti freeze and fill
>         with flush chemicals and water when I'm ready to flush. Bought
>         new anti freeze for my new radiator.
>
>         Driving season is fast approaching.
>
>         Happy roads and saftey fast
>
>         Ira Erbs
>         Portland, OR
>         typos and artifacts are the fault of my phone
>
>         
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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    <p>To be totally a-retentive, water is called the 'Universal
      Solvent' because it will dissolve many <i>inorganic</i>
      compounds--esp. 'salts'--as they are polar compounds (one side of
      the molecule is positive, and one side is negative, and the H+/OH-
      ions in water will 'pull' the salt apart into its constituent ions
      and dissolve it).  Water is a particularly lousy solvent of
      organic (non-polar) compounds; try mixing vegetable or motor oil
      with it sometime.</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>Water is not an oxidizing agent--it is the product of an
      oxidation/reduction reaction itself between hydrogen and
      oxygen--but when it has polar salts dissolved in it it does
      conduct current, which facilitates oxidation-reduction reactions
      (e.g. 'rust').  Distilled water will dissolve more salts than
      (most) tap water, as the tap water is already further along in
      saturation.  I've heard people say distilled water is 'ion
      hungry,' which, for the life of me I don't understand (unless they
      mean it will dissolve a bigger pile of salt than really hard
      water, which is true).<br>
    </p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <p>bs</p>
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 4/8/2019 3:32 PM, WILLIAM B LAWRENCE
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:DM6PR07MB4538A89058F9BB90DF351244A52C0@DM6PR07MB4538.namprd07.prod.outlook.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
        charset=windows-1252">
      <style type="text/css" style="display:none;"> P 
{margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;} </style>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        I have to agree with the theory that grounding can affect an
        alloy radiator. If you have a problem with corrosion despite
        using corrosion inhibitors then the problem is not the fluid
        component of the system it is more likely electrolytic
        corrosion. Maybe the problem isn't engine to chassis grounding,
        but radiator to chassis grounding. It sounds like some effort
        needs to be made to isolate the radiator (electrically) from the
        chassis. or to neutralize the electrolytic forces in the
        system. </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        Either keeping the radiator out of the electrical loop or
        assuring it is on the cathode side seems to be a good idea since
        aluminum is much lower on the noble scale than iron. In a
        positive ground system the chassis is the anode and if the
        radiator is grounded to the chassis it will also be an anode and
        will thus be subject to electrolytic corrosion. (The anode,
        positive pole, in any circuit gives up electrons which carry the
        electrical current. Loss of large numbers of electrons weakens
        the atomic structure of anode material and causes it to break
        down or corrode.)</div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        I don't think that distilled water is necessary and as a matter
        of fact distilled water should be considered more corrosive than
        tap water. Water has the propensity to oxidize most other types
        of materials (universal solvent and all that) and distilled
        water has more of that propensity than harder water because in
        that case it has been partially saturated by dissolved minerals.
        The argument for distilled water is that it carries no calcium
        or other minerals into the cooling system which might eventually
        foul the heat exchange surfaces. That is a minor danger and
        would only be a problem if you were adding large volumes of
        water on a regular basis. If your cooling system is tight it
        should never be a problem.</div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        <br>
      </div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        Bill Lawrence</div>
      <div style="font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;
        font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
        BN1 #554</div>
      <hr style="display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex="-1">
      <div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt"
          face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b>
          Healeys <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net";>&lt;healeys-bounces@autox.team.net&gt;</a>
 on behalf of
          Michael Salter <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" 
href="mailto:michael.salter@gmail.com";>&lt;michael.salter@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 8, 2019 5:34 PM<br>
          <b>To:</b> Robert Begani<br>
          <b>Cc:</b> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";>healeys@autox.team.net</a><br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] FW: Radiator flush</font>
        <div> </div>
      </div>
      <div>
        <div dir="auto">Much and all as that sounds like a good theory I
          am having difficulty with the logic. 
          <div dir="auto">A starter won't work if an engine isn't
            adequately grounded and a ground of sufficient size to
            operate a starter will definitely be big enough to eliminate
            any EMF difference between the engine and the chassis. </div>
          <div dir="auto">I've had an aluminum radiator corrode to
            worthlessness after only 3 years, with corrosion inhibitors
            in the coolant, and have yet to hear a realistic explanation
            for why it happened. </div>
          <div dir="auto"><br>
          </div>
          <div dir="auto">M</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="x_gmail_quote">
          <div dir="ltr" class="x_gmail_attr">On Mon, Apr 8, 2019, 11:56
            AM Robert Begani, &lt;<a href="mailto:rfbegani@gmail.com";
              moz-do-not-send="true">rfbegani@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
          </div>
          <blockquote class="x_gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;
            border-left:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
            <div lang="EN-US">
              <div class="x_m_3815811086204272847WordSection1">
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                    font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;
                    color:#1f497d">Back to the matter of using Distilled
                    Water.  I discussed this comment with my
                    German/American friend who was installing a aluminum
                    radiator in his Lagonda Drop Head Coup.  He has
                    owned various European Vehicles with aluminum
                    radiators, and classic cars with aluminum
                    radiators.  He cannot understand the need for
                    distilled water if you are using antifreeze which
                    includes anti-corrosion additives or using such
                    additive separately.  Furthermore, the biggest
                    problem with alloy radiators is the matter of a good
                    grounded engine.  His experience the failure of the
                    alloy radiator is a poorly grounded engine which
                    causes the electric current to run to ground via the
                    water in coolant system  hence destroy the aluminum
                    being dissimilar metal.   So check the soundness of
                    the ground.</span></p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                    font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;
                    color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                    font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;
                    color:#1f497d">Bob Begani</span></p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                    font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;
                    color:#1f497d">BJ8 67</span></p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;
                    font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;
                    color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Healeys &lt;<a
                    href="mailto:healeys-bounces@autox.team.net";
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys-bounces@autox.team.net</a>&gt;
                  <b>On Behalf Of </b>Michael Salter<br>
                  <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 3, 2019 5:51 PM<br>
                  <b>To:</b> David Nock BCS &lt;<a
                    href="mailto:healeydoc@sbcglobal.net";
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">healeydoc@sbcglobal.net</a>&gt;<br>
                  <b>Cc:</b> Ahealey help &lt;<a
                    href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net"; target="_blank"
                    rel="noreferrer" 
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a>&gt;;
                  i erbs &lt;<a href="mailto:eyera3000@gmail.com";
                    target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                    moz-do-not-send="true">eyera3000@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
                  <b>Subject:</b> Re: [Healeys] Radiator flush</p>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Comic
                        Sans MS&quot;">" If you are installing a alloy
                        radiator be sure and use Distilled water"</span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Comic
                        Sans MS&quot;">Those are definitely the words of
                        someone who "has suffered the consequences" 
...</span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Comic
                        Sans MS&quot;"> </span></p>
                  </div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                        style="font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Comic
                        Sans MS&quot;">M</span></p>
                  </div>
                </div>
                <p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
                <div>
                  <div>
                    <p class="x_MsoNormal">On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 5:47
                      PM David Nock BCS &lt;<a
                        href="mailto:healeydoc@sbcglobal.net";
                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                        moz-do-not-send="true">healeydoc@sbcglobal.net</a>&gt;
                      wrote:</p>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote style="border:none; border-left:solid
                    #cccccc 1.0pt; padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;
                    margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt;
                    margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black">If you are installing a
                                alloy radiator be sure and use Distilled
                                water.
                              </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black">The water flows thru the
                                radiator top to bottom. It flows thru
                                the heater from the lower hose thru the
                                heater returning to the head.
                              </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black">Water will not flow
                                backwards thru the heater valve.</span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black"> </span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                font-family:&quot;Century&quot;,serif;
                                color:black">David Nock<br>
                                British Car Specialists<br>
                                209-948-8767<br>
                                <a
                                  href="http://www.britishcarspecialists.com";
                                  target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                  
moz-do-not-send="true">www.britishcarspecialists.com</a></span></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                    font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                    color:black"> </span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"
                                    style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                        
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                        color:black">From:</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                      font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                      color:black">
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:eyera3000@gmail.com";
                                        title="eyera3000@gmail.com"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        i erbs</a> </span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"
                                    style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                        
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                        color:black">Sent:</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                      font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                      color:black"> Wednesday, April 03,
                                      2019 11:10 AM</span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"
                                    style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                        
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                        color:black">To:</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                      font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                      color:black">
                                      <a
                                        href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
                                        title="healeys@autox.team.net"
                                        target="_blank" rel="noreferrer"
                                        moz-do-not-send="true">
                                        Ahealey help</a> </span></p>
                                </div>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"
                                    style="background:whitesmoke"><b><span
                                        style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                        
font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                        color:black">Subject:</span></b><span
                                      style="font-size:10.0pt;
                                      font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif;
                                      color:black"> [Healeys] Radiator
                                      flush</span></p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:12.0pt; 
color:black"> </span></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                  style="font-size:12.0pt; color:black">Hello
                                  all, <u>
                                  </u></span></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Preparing to install my
                                    alum radiator. Thought I would flush
                                    the cooling system.</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Which diretion
                                    direction does water flow? From
                                    block though
                                    <br>
                                    Shut off vavle into heater core, or
                                    through pipe and back into block
                                    through the shut off valve?</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Is my valve in open ir
                                    closed position? Heater controls not
                                    reinstalled yet. Unit get hot so Ill
                                    asume open, but want to confirm.
                                    Removed thermostat to help water
                                    flush ststem easier. Im going to add
                                    extra hose and splice in a water
                                    hose bib. That way I can remove it
                                    and put system back in place.</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Im off this week, but
                                    the rain gods are laughing at me. So
                                    I'm just getting everything ready
                                    for the sweet spot of having time
                                    and sunshine so I can back the car
                                    out of the garage and flush the
                                    system. I plan to drain the anti
                                    freeze and fill with flush chemicals
                                    and water when I'm ready to flush.
                                    Bought new anti freeze for my new
                                    radiator.</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Driving season is fast
                                    approaching.</span></p>
                              </div>
                              <div>
                                <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                    style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                    color:black">Happy roads and saftey
                                    fast</span></p>
                                <div>
                                  <p class="x_MsoNormal"><span
                                      style="font-size:12.0pt;
                                      color:black">Ira Erbs<br>
                                      Portland, OR<br>
                                      typos and artifacts are the fault
                                      of my phone</span></p>
                                </div>
                              </div>
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                              style="text-align:center" align="center"><span
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                                <hr width="100%" size="2" align="center">
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      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" 
wrap="">_______________________________________________

Archive: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" 
href="http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys";>http://www.team.net/pipermail/healeys</a>
 <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" 
href="http://autox.team.net/archive";>http://autox.team.net/archive</a>

<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" 
href="mailto:Healeys@autox.team.net";>Healeys@autox.team.net</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" 
href="http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys";>http://autox.team.net/mailman/listinfo/healeys</a>


</pre>
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