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Unless there's been another one, the reduction in ZDDP in thinner
viscosity oils happened years ago, coincident with catalytic converters
being installed on, well, pretty much every car. Supposedly, thicker
oils, like 20W-50 were allowed to keep higher levels, since no modern
cars use such a thick oil (BMW apparently excepted). Does anyone know if
the levels were reduced again? Some brands, like Castrol and Valvoline,
have advertised their ZDDP levels to capitalize on this market.
According to this, the additive package in VR1 was 'reformulated' (also,
it's the 'P'--phosphorous--in ZDDP that provides the anti-wear aspect):
https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq
On 8/9/2021 4:20 AM, Michael Oritt wrote:
> Bob--
>
> I should have added that this incident coincided with a recent
> lowering by DOT of lead and zinc contents and what might have been
> fine a year earlier was no longer sufficient to protect the new cam
> and lifters. I'll certainly plead guilty to the sometimes-specious
> thinking that "more is better", but on the other hand "less" is
> sometimes not enough, and therein lies the dilemma.
>
> Best--Michael Oritt
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:00 PM Bob Spidell via Healeys
>
> Subject to debate. The literature I've seen from the oil companies
> stress that their products are carefully formulated, and adding
> anything to them is not a good idea. Also, ZDDP was first used as
> a detergent, with its wear surface protection a surprising
> side-effect (like how tetra-ethyl lead was added to gas to
> increase octane rating, and its cushioning and protecting of valve
> seats was a side-effect). But, it's human nature to think "If a
> little of this is good, a lot HAS to be better," but it's not
> necessarily true. ZDDP is corrosive in high concentrations; the
> 'sweet spot' appears to be about 1,500PPM.
>
> Ordinarily, I'd attribute Michael's failed lifters (cam?) to
> improper break-in, but I'm sure M used proper procedures, which
> makes this doubly mysterious and concerning. I don't know how
> bucket lifters would change the outcome; their main benefit seems
> to be reduced wear of the block.
>
>
> On 8/8/2021 6:19 PM, i erbs via Healeys wrote:
>> Good practice
>>
>> Ira Erbs
>> 1959 AH 100-6
>> 1967 MGB
>> Milwaukie, OR
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2021, 6:09 PM Alan Seigrist <healey.nut@gmail.com
>>
>> So adding zddp on top of whatever is in there is okay? I
>> have Castrol 20W-50 in my motor... also use the Valvoline too.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 11:11 PM Michael Oritt via Healeys
>>
>> In about 2007 just before ZDDP content in motor oils
>> became a commonly talked-about issue in vintage racing
>> communities, I bought a new race engine for my
>> MGA-powered Elva Courier from a reputable builder who
>> recommended I use Mobil 1. Somewhere during the first
>> race weekend performance fell off and upon disassembly it
>> was determined that the cam lobes had been damaged due to
>> wear from the lifters.
>>
>> After replacing the cam and lifters I began using RP
>> racing oil and throwing in ZDDP additive for good
>> measure. Though the Royal Purple probably contained
>> sufficient zddp on its own and some folks
>> cautioned against too high levels of zinc I haveÂ
>> continued this combination and have not lost a cam, etc.
>> since.
>>
>> YMMV....
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 5, 2021 at 11:16 PM Michael Salter
>> <michaelsalter@gmail.com
>>
>> The first sign of problems was having to adjust the
>> tappets which had initially been silent after 2000
>> miles and then again at 4500.
>> After adjusting they were still audible and had
>> previously been silent.
>> Then at the 2000 and 4000 mile oil changes there was
>> "fir" in the drain plug magnet.
>> I'm very disappointed to have destroyed a very low
>> mileage "M" cam and a set of NOS lifters that I had
>> been saving for decades.
>> I'm seriously considering having silicon nitride
>> lifters manufactured but at over $1000 a set its a
>> serious investment.
>>
>> M
>>
>> On Wed., Aug. 4, 2021, 10:47 a.m. Steven Kingsbury,
>> <airtightproductions@icloud.com
>>
>> I just rebuilt my 100 engine and purchased my
>> lifters from AH Spares in the UK. These were
>> their new design for better oil flow. I now have
>> 1000 miles or so on the new engine and once I got
>> my problems figured out with my distributor, the
>> car is running well and smooth.
>> Â Â Â Now I'm wondering when the other shoe is going
>> to drop! What problems did you have pointing you
>> to the lifters as the source of those problems?
>> When I retorqued the head, I readjusted the
>> rockers and found no problems. They were a little
>> off, but I expected a little.
>> Â Â Â What should I be looking for? I used Driven
>> Break In oil and then I switched to VR1 like you
>> after 500 miles. I have been driving the car to
>> build up some trust in it and it's turning in to
>> a joy to drive. I've got M mods on this engine,
>> cam, H6 carbs, M pistons and these new lifters.
>> So far, so good.
>> Â Â Â Thanks for your help,
>> Steven Kingsbury
>> BN1
>>
>> On August 3, 2021 at 5:19 PM, Michael Salter via
>> Healeys <healeys@autox.team.net
>>
>>> After only 6000 miles the NOS BMC lifters that I
>>> installed in my engine with a very low mileage
>>> "M" cam have started to deteriorate.
>>> This engine has had a steady diet of VR1 non
>>> synthetic and it has had 4 changes in 6K miles.
>>> Very disappointing.
>>> I'm considering trying bucket type Buick
>>> lifters with longer push rods and a new cam.
>>> Does anyone have experience with the durability
>>> of the old Buick lifters ... getting a little
>>> desperate here.
>>> Fortunately I caught this issue before it ruined
>>> the engine.
>>>
>>> M
>>>
>
>
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Unless there's been another one, the reduction in ZDDP in thinner
viscosity oils happened years ago, coincident with catalytic
converters being installed on, well, pretty much every car.
Supposedly, thicker oils, like 20W-50 were allowed to keep higher
levels, since no modern cars use such a thick oil (BMW apparently
excepted). Does anyone know if the levels were reduced again? Some
brands, like Castrol and Valvoline, have advertised their ZDDP
levels to capitalize on this market. <br>
<br>
According to this, the additive package in VR1 was 'reformulated'
(also, it's the 'P'--phosphorous--in ZDDP that provides the
anti-wear aspect):<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq";>https://www.valvoline.com/about-us/faq/racing-oil-faq</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/9/2021 4:20 AM, Michael Oritt
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAPTa0B5Rcrge1SwcUYrroNXHS-QQ0jvCKsHnYdJ=USazVT-vVg@mail.gmail.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:#3333ff">Bob--</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:#3333ff">I should have
added that this incident coincided with a recent lowering by
DOT of lead and zinc contents and what might have been fine a
year earlier was no longer sufficient to protect the new cam
and lifters. I'll certainly plead guilty to the
sometimes-specious thinking that "more is better", but on the
other hand "less" is sometimes not enough, and therein lies
the dilemma.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:#3333ff"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="color:#3333ff">Best--Michael
Oritt</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 8, 2021 at 11:00
PM Bob Spidell via Healeys <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div> Subject to debate. The literature I've seen from the oil
companies stress that their products are carefully
formulated, and adding anything to them is not a good idea.
Also, ZDDP was first used as a detergent, with its wear
surface protection a surprising side-effect (like how
tetra-ethyl lead was added to gas to increase octane rating,
and its cushioning and protecting of valve seats was a
side-effect). But, it's human nature to think "If a little
of this is good, a lot HAS to be better," but it's not
necessarily true. ZDDP is corrosive in high concentrations;
the 'sweet spot' appears to be about 1,500PPM. <br>
<br>
Ordinarily, I'd attribute Michael's failed lifters (cam?) to
improper break-in, but I'm sure M used proper procedures,
which makes this doubly mysterious and concerning. I don't
know how bucket lifters would change the outcome; their main
benefit seems to be reduced wear of the block.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div>On 8/8/2021 6:19 PM, i erbs via Healeys wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="auto">Good practice<br>
<br>
<div>Ira Erbs<br>
1959 AH 100-6<br>
1967 MGB<br>
Milwaukie, OR</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Aug 8, 2021,
6:09 PM Alan Seigrist <<a
href="mailto:healey.nut@gmail.com"; target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">healey.nut@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">So adding zddp on top of whatever is in
there is okay? I have Castrol 20W-50 in my motor...
also use the Valvoline too.</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Aug 7,
2021 at 11:11 PM Michael Oritt via Healeys <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default"
style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">In about 2007
just before ZDDP content in motor oils became
a commonly talked-about issue in vintage
racing communities, I bought a new race engine
for my MGA-powered Elva Courier from a
reputable builder who recommended I use Mobil
1. Somewhere during the first race weekend
performance fell off and upon disassembly it
was determined that the cam lobes had been
damaged due to wear from the lifters.  </div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">After replacing
the cam and lifters I began using RP racing
oil and throwing in ZDDP additive for good
measure. Though the Royal Purple probably
contained sufficient zddp on its own and some
folks cautioned against too high levels of
zinc I have continued this combination and
have not lost a cam, etc. since.</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="color:rgb(51,51,255)"><br>
</div>
<div class="gmail_default"
style="color:rgb(51,51,255)">YMMV....  </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Aug 5,
2021 at 11:16 PM Michael Salter <<a
href="mailto:michaelsalter@gmail.com";
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">michaelsalter@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">The first sign of problems was
having to adjust the tappets which had
initially been silent after 2000 miles and
then again at 4500.
<div dir="auto">After adjusting they were
still audible and had previously been
silent.</div>
<div dir="auto">Then at the 2000 and 4000
mile oil changes there was "fir" in the
drain plug magnet.</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm very disappointed to
have destroyed a very low mileage "M" cam
and a set of NOS lifters that I had been
saving for decades.</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm seriously considering
having silicon nitride lifters
manufactured but at over $1000 a set its a
serious investment.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">M</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed.,
Aug. 4, 2021, 10:47 a.m. Steven Kingsbury,
<<a
href="mailto:airtightproductions@icloud.com";
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">airtightproductions@icloud.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div>I just rebuilt my 100 engine and
purchased my lifters from AH Spares in
the UK. These were their new design
for better oil flow. I now have 1000
miles or so on the new engine and once
I got my problems figured out with my
distributor, the car is running well
and smooth.</div>
<div>Â Â Â Now I'm wondering when the other
shoe is going to drop! What problems
did you have pointing you to the
lifters as the source of those
problems? When I retorqued the head, I
readjusted the rockers and found no
problems. They were a little off, but
I expected a little.</div>
<div>Â Â Â What should I be looking for? I
used Driven Break In oil and then I
switched to VR1 like you after 500
miles. I have been driving the car to
build up some trust in it and it's
turning in to a joy to drive. I've got
M mods on this engine, cam, H6 carbs,
M pistons and these new lifters. So
far, so good. </div>
<div>Â Â Â Thanks for your help,</div>
<div>Steven Kingsbury</div>
<div>BN1</div>
<div><br>
On August 3, 2021 at 5:19 PM, Michael
Salter via Healeys <<a
href="mailto:healeys@autox.team.net";
rel="noreferrer noreferrer"
target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">healeys@autox.team.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="auto">After only 6000
miles the NOS BMC lifters that I
installed in my engine with a
very low mileage "M" cam have
started to deteriorate.Â
<div dir="auto">This engine has
had a steady diet of VR1 non
synthetic and it has had 4
changes in 6K miles. </div>
<div dir="auto">Very
disappointing. </div>
<div dir="auto">I'm considering
trying bucket type Buick
lifters with longer push rods
and a new cam.</div>
<div dir="auto">Does anyone have
experience with the durability
of the old Buick lifters ...
getting a little desperate
here.</div>
<div dir="auto">Fortunately I
caught this issue before it
ruined the engine.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">M</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
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