DELETE NOW if you're as tired of this thread as many are! :-)
In a message dated 1/5/2002 10:34:40 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wallaces@superaje.com writes:
> You know while you guys debate the frightening negative potential of a
> steering wheel cover, the wrong paint under the bonnet, and a UK plate,
> someone will buy that car. ...
Let's hope so, if the price is right.
> The "problems" with this car as discussed are truly picayune, no? Are we
> all in such a position that we can turn our backs on a car like this
> because of missing over-riders, for example? Wow. If I were able to afford
> it I would be pretty excited to even have found a running 3b at all, and
> would certainly be pursuing it. No offense intended, but why doesn't one of
>
> you who can afford it just buy the thing? How many decent, running, 3bs
> become available?
>
Hard to say if the "problems" are "truly picayune" or not. Forgetting for the
moment anything special about a TR3B, one still has to look at this first as
a USED CAR and judge it as one would any other used car, looking for the
classic instances of problems lying under the surface. Does the black paint
under the hood hide some serious rust or old crash damage, etc., etc.?
Quote from the auction listing: "This is a fun little car in excellent
running condition with a solid body. Not a show car but overall 8 on a scale
of 10."
Actually, I think I'd give it closer to a 6, but that's still not too bad.
Quoting again:
"Year: 1963 Exterior Color: White with Black Top
Make: Triumph Interior Color: Black Vinyl - Original
Model: TR 3 B Convertible Engine: 4 Cylinder - 2000 cc - Original
VIN: TCF2257L0 Transmission: 4-Speed Manual Transmission"
The commission number and the presence of the switch on the dash confirm the
presence (at least originally) of a factory-installed OD gearbox; hopefully
it's still there, and the overdrive simply was overlooked by whoever wrote
the copy above. Combine that with the wire wheels and the adjustable steering
column, and you've got a TR3B that was fairly well-optioned from new. I have
no idea of the percentage of 3Bs that were so optioned, but I'll bet not that
many were.
Regarding some of the other information quoted above, chances are that the
engine is original (only seeing the number would confirm that, of course),
but it likely would have been the 2138cc engine. As for the interior, black
vinyl was original, but this particular interior almost certainly is NOT.
It does occur to me that an auction company such as Kruse, with a fairly
decent reputation (!?), should do their research a bit better. But since they
wouldn't or couldn't, that's where we clubs and individual enthusiasts come
in.
Bob Paul has a very good point: this appears to be a fairly well CONSERVED
car. A survivor if you will over nearly 40 years -- a car that survived a
number of owners who managed to keep it presentable and running through times
when the value of such a car might have been very low. (I'm sure I can't be
the only one who picked up running, driveable TRs for a hundred bucks or so
in the early 1970s!) And it survived during a period of time where any spare
parts -- "Correct" or otherwise -- were often nearly impossible to obtain in
many areas, a period of time before there were networks of Triumph owners in
organized clubs or on the Internet.
For whatever it's worth (in and of itself and for purposes of this rant), my
Mayflower is very similar. Previous owners reupholstered the car not once,
but twice, fitted a Ford-style starter solenoid, Herald voltage regulator,
Facet electric fuel pump, goodness-knows-what-brand front side lamps and
horns, and a multitude of extra gauges and switches and warning lights and
knobs and.... Heck, I added a Herald carb to replace the Fiat-Weber carb that
was on the car when I bought it in 1985. (Neither is close to correct, but at
least the Herald carb functions; the Fiat carb was DOA.)
So what is either car "worth"?
1. To an enthusiast who drives and loves such a car, it doesn't really
matter. I had a ball with the Mayflower before the engine went sour. I might
restore it all "to original" someday, though...at a cost that will FAR EXCEED
any possible return on said "investment"!
2. To someone selling such a car and knowingly or unknowingly tries to pass
it off as "original": whatever the market will bear.
3. To the person who, without checking, assumes all is well and cashes in
his/her IRA accounts to spend perhaps much more than market value, probably
not as much as he/she pays for the car -- UNLESS they otherwise fit #1 above.
4. To the "collector market" that properly values in terms of price paid
(opinion, but I think there's more than sufficient precedent for this) an
original or "correctly restored to original" car over "anything less" -- the
car may or may not sell at or be worth the "reserve" price. (See #1 above,
though.)
Why do we all get so picayune about a 3B? Well, it's because that's what we
do. We're car people!
Why is this somewhat important? See #1-4 above. But also consider that the
TR3B is somewhat of a holy grail (note lower case letters) amongst Triumph
people. Not like a Le Mans Spitfire or TRS, but much harder to find than most
Triumph sports models. Contrary to what the auction listing states, there
were around 2800 of the TCF series 3B (not 600, which is closer to the 500+
of the TSF series 3B total). But there probably aren't more than 100-200
left.
For those who value originality, finding an original 3B is pretty cool, like
finding a correct, matching-numbers Mustang GT350. Of course, it's very, very
easy to duplicate a 3B in terms of specification. Nowadays it's rather
difficult to even find the 83mm pistons and liners to restore a 2/3/3A/early
3B engine, and it's probably pointless to bother. I mean, why not bolt in
some extra cubic inches that no one will see? Most everything else is pretty
much pure late TR3A, down to the cheaper-to-replace all-vinyl interior that
many (most?) TR3Bs had as opposed to the leather facing of most earlier cars.
So buy the 86mm piston/liner set, an early TR4 valve cover and the cheaper
interior kit, paint the hoodsticks "Sandlewood Beige" and you've got a
3B...EXCEPT for the all-important commission, engine and body numbers.
But the "real thing" -- all else being equal -- will almost always have more
monetary value than a replica or outright "fake" or an older car brought up
to newer specification. And I think that's the whole point here. If you want
a sidescreen TR and don't particularly care about matching numbers or the
right date code on the wiper switch, that's absolutely fine. But please don't
turn around and try to represent the car for what it isn't.
You can call a car anything you want to. Take an old chassis, toss in
whatever motor and drivetrain you can find, build some kind of body to mount
on it, trim it up in glossy paint and naughahyde or leather...go crazy. Just
don't try to pass it off later as the "previously unknown eighth Bugatti
Royale chassis, hidden behind a false wall in an old whisk broom factory
warehouse south of Albany, NY, since the late 1930s and just now
discovered...." :-) Similarly, please don't insult my intelligence (as a
local dealer did back in the early 1970s) by telling me that the shiny yellow
roadster in your showroom -- with the Ford running gear and VW taillights --
is a genuine Auburn Speedster. (It was a very nice Glenn Pray REPLICA
Auburn.)
OK, I've counter-ranted enough. I do hope that someone will, at a fair price,
pick up this 3B and conserve, preserve, restore or -- heaven forbid :-) --
modify it to suit their purposes and tastes. Most of all, I hope it will be
driven and enjoyed!
--Andy Mace
*Mrs Irrelevant: Oh, is it a jet?
*Man: Well, no ... It's not so much of a jet, it's more your, er,
Triumph Herald engine with wings.
-- Cut-price Airlines Sketch, Monty Python's Flying Circus (22)
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