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a point around is mearly an idication the driver is aware of your =
presence and leaving the pass to you. of course he is going to drive the =
line. yo have to pass in a safe maner.
Jeff
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Bill Babcock=20
To: Bill Babcock=20
Cc: 'FOT' ; britbits@netzero.com=20
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, and I come away =
convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven says " A red =
2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left and moved to the =
right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the
line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me. =20
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:
Actually, it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing =
speed--your racing speed. You are not required or expected to move off =
the line if you are at speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The =
overtaking drivers expect you to hold to your line, and he is =
responsible for managing the pass in a safe manner. What Steven was =
talking about is being on the line when he was NOT at racing speed, in =
other words, when he did not need to be there. And in any racing =
organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed to be on the =
line then.=20
Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not safe =
nor is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to =
go where you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet =
that guy didn't go into the dirt because he wanted to.=20
On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:
I understand the intent....
When I went through my drivers school in a vintage race group, the =
understanding was that you "drove the line". If someone wanted to pass =
you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to make a safe pass.
Or is responsibility not a word to mention in this forum?
One of the other racers shared an anecdote of "moving off line" to =
allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in after that session and =
give him a new oriface for violating the basic rule.
When I was active in Vintage I was in a close cockpit car (Mini =
Cooper S) so giving hand signals was difficult. But my expectation was =
that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking car should use that =
information in order to make a safe pass.
I guess it's something that needs to be discussed with each =
vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on track. If the =
rule is "stay on the line" then one set of rule apply. If it's "if =
you're not at speed pick a different line" that also needs to be agreed =
before cars hit the track.
It all comes down to communication.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
too many toys, not enough $$$
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
[mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On Behalf Of Bill Babcock
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:51 PM
To: britbits@netzero.com
Cc: 'FOT'
Subject: Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
You may not like this answer, so here's your opportunity to delete =
before reading.=20
I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in the =
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed that =
did NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at =
full chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my =
question is, if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty =
close to the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be =
there, in other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way =
through a corner. If you are driving to the line, you don't need to be =
there. If the line is the only place that the laws of physics permit =
your car to be, then you do.=20
There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting "if you =
are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this guy =
who drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always passed =
him so closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at =
least twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. =
Just where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never =
deviated from the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I =
would encounter in any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit =
"racing". In contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it =
out, they might be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where =
they are. Nothing but respect for that, lift and wait.=20
If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only safe =
path through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you =
can't tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to =
stand on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing =
condition. As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but =
you are responsible.=20
We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows with =
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed you =
don't belong anywhere near the racing line.=20
On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:
Steven,
Unfortunately they use the "r" word when describing vintage =
events... so
some of the "kids" who loved Pole Position or the different PC =
games feel
they need to drive like a jerk to be a "racer". Or maybe they =
saw "Days of
Thunder" once too often ;)
Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's probably not a =
bad idea to
install an in car camera. Next time.. grab an official and show =
them the
video. It's kind of hard to argue against a video.
Cheers,
Jim
Dallas
-----Original Message-----
From: fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
[mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net] On
Behalf Of Steven Belfer
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 6:24 PM
To: FOT
Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous driving
Speaking of dangerous driving situations, two weekends ago I =
raced at
Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had new brakes that needed bedding. =
This meant I
needed to heat up my brakes in the first practice session, let =
them cool so
I could have good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I =
was in the
first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type guys =
what I needed
to do and started in the back. I'm also running a fresh engine =
and feeling
that out as well. Anyway, after about 3 or 4 laps I'm just =
about done
bedding the brakes and I'm about to get lapped. This is the =
first "Warm-up"
session of the weekend. A red 2002 is approaching me and I =
waved him to the
left and moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty =
close to the
line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on the right ON =
THE DIRT at
full speed. He re-entered the track, got a little squirrelly, =
threw some
rocks onto my car and kept going. This guy was racing hard with =
a yellow
P1800 and not letting up one bit. He didn't want to sacrifice =
his lap time
when overtaking me. The level of aggression took me by surprise =
and made me
angry. It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my =
best to get
my job done safely and get off =20
the race track. I tell my friends and family, when they ask if =
it's =20
dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and there's no =
prize money."
I would say that most of the drivers are safe and respectful of =
their
machines and their abilities but all it takes is one douchebag =
move and
you're in big trouble
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.6000.16705" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
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<BODY=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>a point around is mearly an idication =
the driver is=20
aware of your presence and leaving the pass to you. of course he is =
going to=20
drive the line. yo have to pass in a safe maner.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jeff</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DBillb@bnj.com href=3D"mailto:Billb@bnj.com";>Bill =
Babcock</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3DBillb@bnj.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Billb@bnj.com";>Bill Babcock</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dfot@autox.team.net=20
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>'FOT'</A> ; <A =
title=3Dbritbits@netzero.com=20
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, September 25, =
2008 9:25=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding =
Brakes,=20
dangerous driving</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>I reread everything to see If I'm just being a jerk, =
and I come=20
away convinced that while I might be a jerk, I'm right. Steven =
says=20
" A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to the left =
and moved=20
to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to the<BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>line." OK, that sounds really, really, really bad to me. =
=20
</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Bill Babcock wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">Actually,=20
it all comes down to whether or not you are at racing speed--your =
racing=20
speed. You are not required or expected to move off the line if you =
are at=20
speed. In fact it's a really bad idea. The overtaking drivers expect =
you to=20
hold to your line, and he is responsible for managing the pass in a =
safe=20
manner. What Steven was talking about is being on the line when he =
was NOT=20
at racing speed, in other words, when he did not need to be there. =
And in=20
any racing organization--vintage, SCCA or F1, you are NOT supposed =
to be on=20
the line then.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bedding your brakes and breaking your engine in on line is not =
safe nor=20
is it wise driving. People coming up behind you may not be able to =
go where=20
you point them. I wasn't there so I couldn't say, but I bet that guy =
didn't=20
go into the dirt because he wanted to. </DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 9:05 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV=20
style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I understand the =
intent....</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I went through my drivers school in =
a vintage=20
race group, the understanding was that you "drove the line". =
If=20
someone wanted to pass you, it was their RESPONSIBILITY to =
make a=20
safe pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Or is responsibility not a word to =
mention in this=20
forum?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>One of the other racers shared an =
anecdote of "moving=20
off line" to allow easier passing.. and having a racer come in =
after that=20
session and give him a new oriface for violating the basic=20
rule.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>When I was active in Vintage I was in a =
close cockpit=20
car (Mini Cooper S) so giving hand signals was =
difficult. But=20
my expectation was that if I was signalling right.. the overtaking =
car=20
should use that information in order to make a safe=20
pass.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>I guess it's something that needs to be =
discussed=20
with each vintage group and a consensus formed before racers go on =
track. If the rule is "stay on the line" then one set of =
rule=20
apply. If it's "if you're not at speed pick a =
different line"=20
that also needs to be agreed before cars hit the=20
track.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>It all comes down to=20
communication.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Jim</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Dallas</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D484395603-26092008><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>too many toys, not enough =
$$$</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>=
=20
[<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.=
net</A>]=20
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Bill Babcock<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
September 25,=20
2008 10:51 PM<BR><B>To:</B> <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:britbits@netzero.com";>britbits@netzero.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</=
B>=20
'FOT'<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous=20
driving<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>You may not like this answer, so here's your =
opportunity to=20
delete before reading.=20
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I, and I'll bet many other people in the FOT, have been in =
the=20
"douchebag's position before, when some guy traveling at a speed =
that did=20
NOT NEED to be at the line, pointed me by while I was traveling at =
full=20
chat--and pointed me into a place I did not want to go. So my =
question is,=20
if you were traveling that slowly, why were you "pretty =
close to=20
the line"? The line is where you need to be when you need to be =
there, in=20
other words, when you are at speed and it's the only safe way =
through a=20
corner. If you are <SPAN class=3DApple-style-span=20
style=3D"TEXT-DECORATION: underline">driving</SPAN> to the line, =
you don't=20
need to be there. If the line is the only place that the laws of =
physics=20
permit your car to be, then you do. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>There's a reason why they say in any good driver's meeting =
"if you=20
are not at racing speed, get off the line". Several years ago this =
guy who=20
drove a car at what I considered 3/10s asked me why I always =
passed him so=20
closely. I, and the entire race group, generally lapped him at =
least=20
twice, sometimes three times. He was driving the line, precisely. =
Just=20
where his driving instructor told him to drive. And he never =
deviated from=20
the line. I considered him the most dangerous thing I would =
encounter in=20
any day on the the track. I was thrilled when he quit "racing". In =
contrast, when you come up on a gaggle of FV's battling it out, =
they might=20
be 20 MPH slower than you, but they need to be where they are. =
Nothing=20
but respect for that, lift and wait. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>If you aren't at the limit, then you are blocking the only =
safe path=20
through the course at speed. the guys who are coming up behind you =
can't=20
tuck in behind and wait for you to finish a corner--they'd have to =
stand=20
on their brakes to do that, and that's dangerous in any racing =
condition.=20
As Burt Levy might say, the other driver was to blame, but you are =
responsible. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>We really DO call this racing. Vintage events are car shows =
with=20
picnics. Vintage races are races. If you are not at racing speed =
you don't=20
belong anywhere near the racing line. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>
<DIV>On Sep 25, 2008, at 6:04 PM, Jim wrote:</DIV><BR=20
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
<DIV>Steven,<BR><BR>Unfortunately they use the "r" word when =
describing=20
vintage events... so<BR>some of the "kids" who loved Pole =
Position or=20
the different PC games feel<BR>they need to drive like a jerk to =
be a=20
"racer". Or maybe they saw "Days of<BR>Thunder" once too =
often=20
;)<BR><BR>Aside from keeping an eye on the mirrors, it's =
probably not a=20
bad idea to<BR>install an in car camera. Next time.. grab =
an=20
official and show them the<BR>video. It's kind of hard to =
argue=20
against a=20
=
video.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Jim<BR>Dallas<BR><BR><BR>-----Original=20
Message-----<BR>From: <A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</A>=
=20
[<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.=
net</A>]=20
On<BR>Behalf Of Steven Belfer<BR>Sent: Thursday, September 25, =
2008 6:24=20
PM<BR>To: FOT<BR>Subject: [Fot] Bedding Brakes, dangerous=20
driving<BR><BR>Speaking of dangerous driving situations, =
two=20
weekends ago I raced at<BR>Buttonwillow in my TR3. I had =
new=20
brakes that needed bedding. This meant I<BR>needed to heat =
up my=20
brakes in the first practice session, let them cool so<BR>I =
could have=20
good braking power for the rest of the weekend. I was in=20
the<BR>first group so at 8:30am, I told the proper official-type =
guys=20
what I needed<BR>to do and started in the back. I'm also =
running a=20
fresh engine and feeling<BR>that out as well. Anyway, =
after about=20
3 or 4 laps I'm just about done<BR>bedding the brakes and I'm =
about to=20
get lapped. This is the first "Warm-up"<BR>session of the =
weekend.=20
A red 2002 is approaching me and I waved him to =
the<BR>left and=20
moved to the right a little bit, while staying pretty close to=20
the<BR>line. Next thing I know the guy is passing me on =
the right=20
ON THE DIRT at<BR>full speed. He re-entered the track, got a =
little=20
squirrelly, threw some<BR>rocks onto my car and kept going. =
This=20
guy was racing hard with a yellow<BR>P1800 and not letting up =
one bit.=20
He didn't want to sacrifice his lap time<BR>when =
overtaking me.=20
The level of aggression took me by surprise and made =
me<BR>angry.=20
It was, after all the morning warm-up and I truly did my =
best to=20
get<BR>my job done safely and get off <BR>the race track.=20
I tell my friends and family, when they ask if it's=20
<BR>dangerous, "You see, it's a gentlemen's sport and =
there's no=20
prize money."<BR>I would say that most of the drivers are safe =
and=20
respectful of their<BR>machines and their abilities but all it =
takes is=20
one douchebag move and<BR>you're in big=20
=
trouble<BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV>=
</DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Support =
Team.Net=20
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ot=20
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