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Re: [Fot] Camshaft recommendation

To: enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au
Subject: Re: [Fot] Camshaft recommendation
From: Richard Good via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2020 16:15:53 +0000 (UTC)
Cc: gkbyrne@optusnet.com.au, fot@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: fot@autox.team.net
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Terry,

True.=C2=A0 The original cams do not have very large lobes to work with.=C2=
=A0 Re-grinding to a higher lift requires reduction of the base circle radi=
us which also reduces all of the radii in the profile.=C2=A0 Any cam profil=
e has a minimum recommended base circle radius in order to maintain an acce=
ptable radius at all points on the profile.=C2=A0 The smallest radius may a=
ctually be on either side of the tip but it is easier to visualize if you t=
hink of having, let's say a healthy .200" radius at the tip when the base c=
ircle is at .60" radius.=C2=A0 If you grind that profile onto a small core =
that requires grinding the base circle to .40", the radius at the tip will =
now be zero.=C2=A0=20

The new chilled iron semi-finished cams with un-finished lobes offer much m=
ore meat to work with and harder material than the original cams.

Richard



Sent from AOL Mobile Mail=20
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com
On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 Enquiries Road & Track <enquiries@roadandtrac=
k.net.au> wrote:
thanks Richard
some folks might like to read this link=C2=A0https://www.tildentechnologies=
.com/Cams/TriumphCams.html=C2=A0

=C2=A0 I disagree=C2=A0with your comment about grinding stock cams. You can=
not always get the lift desired as in some cases, you would end up grinding=
 below the core of shaft. Again, this was a real common problem with early =
2000 & 2500 cams , which is whey they were often welded on the nose as part=
 of the modification process. In later production, the factory used a large=
r diameter=C2=A0core , presumably to aid stiffness, but that gives a bit mo=
re flexibility when regrinding.=C2=A0=C2=A0

You correctly point out that as you increase the lifter diameter then the p=
eak velocity can also change. if you run the maths, a=C2=A0 change of 0.100=
"=C2=A0 in lifter diameter=C2=A0(a lot really) gives a 10% increase in acce=
ptable peak velocity. Changing the lifter diameter=C2=A0is not for the fein=
t-hearted, especially in a 6 cylinder where the lifter bores are angled to =
the block to promote lifter rotation.=C2=A0
It would be good if Geoff Byrne elaborates a bit on his comment
Terry O'Beirne

=C2=A0 =C2=A0

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Road and Trackenquiries@roadandtrack.net.au
ph 0428 815 117



On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 11:23 AM Richard Good via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> =
wrote:


Michael,

People often seem to overlook the main performance benefit of increasing th=
e rocker ratio.=C2=A0 That is the increase in valve velocity.=C2=A0 The vel=
ocity of a flat tappet is limited by it's diameter. If you grind the cam lo=
be for too much velocity the contact patch will move out past the edge of t=
he lifter and things will self destruct.=C2=A0 So tappet velocity is limite=
d.=C2=A0 However, since tappet velocity times rocker ratio equals valve vel=
ocity, increasing the rocker ratio will increase valve velocity.

First decide what will be the optimum valve lift for your engine then divid=
e by rocker ratio to determine the net cam lift needed to achieve that valv=
e lift.=C2=A0 Yes, you can grind the cam with a large enough lobe to reach =
desired lift using stock rockers but you are limited in how fast you can op=
en the valve.=C2=A0 Now if you grind the cam with less lift then use 1.65:1=
 rockers to reach that same desired valve lift you will be moving the valve=
 about 13% faster. That means it will be open further in a given period of =
time.=C2=A0 Graph it out and you will see a big difference.=C2=A0 Valve vel=
ocity is a huge factor in performance.=C2=A0=20

I can understand why someone who has tried to use high ratio rockers with a=
 cam that was already maxing out the valve lift with stock rockers would de=
cide that high ratio does not work.=C2=A0 Valve lift was already at max. In=
creasing it further may be a detriment.=C2=A0 If duration was also maxed ou=
t for reasonable torque then the increase in lift during the overlap period=
 caused by the increase in rocker ratio may reduce the low end torque.=C2=
=A0 Properly applied with the right cam profile, high ratio rockers enable =
performance that is just not achievable with stock rockers.

Richard Good
Good Parts Inc

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail=20
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com
On Tuesday, February 11, 2020 Michael Zbarsky via Fot <mzbarsky@yahoo.com> =
wrote:
Thanks everyone! Good stuff. I=E2=80=99m sticking to a redline of just over=
=C2=A06K. I=E2=80=99d also like to keep the 1.65 setup rather than invest i=
n a 1.55 so keep the intel and=C2=A0suggestions coming. The GP3 is a defini=
te contender.=C2=A0
Mike=C2=A0




On Monday, February 10, 2020, 4:07 PM, Geoff Byrne <gkbyrne@optusnet.com.au=
> wrote:

Ditch the 1.65 rockers no good for racingGeoff ByrneTR6 racer down under

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Feb 2020, at 12:52 am, van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot <fot@autox.team.=
net> wrote:



=EF=BB=BFI also once bought a Goodparts 1.65 rocker roller assembly for a T=
R6 engine, but in the end I had to use a 1.55 roller rocker assembly, also =
from Goodparts, because, with the 1.65, it is difficult to find a race cams=
haft with a=C2=A0 lobe lift that is low enough. With lobes of 8mm or higher=
, I could not find valve springs to cope with the high valve lift. I bought=
 a G5 camshaft from Schneider, they call it=C2=A0 the 320-F grind (duration=
 is 268=C2=B0 at 0.050", timing is 57-83=C2=A0 =C2=A0 87-53 , installation =
figure is then 103=C2=B0 :is that the same as the G5 grind?) with 0.340"/8.=
6mm cam lift and that makes for a=C2=A0 valve lift of 12.9mm with the 1.55 =
rocker arms. With 1.65 rockers , valve lift would be 14.2mm and I could not=
 find valve springs for that lift. The valve springs I used are part no 281=
003-063.20 from Summit (Isky), 320lb/inch spring rate. They recommend 0.45"=
/11.43mm=C2=A0 (1.250" - 0.800"from closed to full open position, so it is =
about 1.4mm more in my engine, but there is no problem concerning=C2=A0 coi=
l binding : the installed height is a 1mm more than 1.250 , the pressure in=
 closed position is lower=C2=A0 of course, but still 34kgs (105kgs at full =
lift) an that seems to be enough till 7500 rpmRacetorations have a race cam=
 with 7.6mm cam lift, probably that would work with 1.65 rocker arms. I sti=
ll have the 1.65 rocker assembly, it is new and it could work with a road c=
am or any camshaft with a maximum of 8mm cam lift.Marcel
Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Aan: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Verzonden: Maandag 10 februari 2020 02:34:27
Onderwerp: [Fot] Camshaft recommendation

Hi all, I=E2=80=99m building a TR6 race engine and have a set of 1.65 ratio=
 roller rockers from Goodparts. Any recommendations for a suitable camshaft=
? I will be putting in cam bearings.=C2=A0
Thanks, Mike



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home.com.au






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izon.net


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dandtrack.net.au




------=_Part_1433128_317628633.1581524153790
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<p dir=3D"ltr">Terry,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">True.&nbsp; The original cams do not have very large lobes t=
o work with.&nbsp; Re-grinding to a higher lift requires reduction of the b=
ase circle radius which also reduces all of the radii in the profile.&nbsp;=
 Any cam profile has a minimum recommended base circle radius in order to m=
aintain an acceptable radius at all points on the profile.&nbsp; The smalle=
st radius may actually be on either side of the tip but it is easier to vis=
ualize if you think of having, let's say a healthy .200" radius at the tip =
when the base circle is at .60" radius.&nbsp; If you grind that profile ont=
o a small core that requires grinding the base circle to .40", the radius a=
t the tip will now be zero.&nbsp; </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The new chilled iron semi-finished cams with un-finished lob=
es offer much more meat to work with and harder material than the original =
cams.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Richard<br><br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail <br>
Get the new AOL app: mail.mobile.aol.com</p>
</br></br><div class=3D"device_aol_et_org_dt_dd_quote"></div><hr style=3D"b=
order:0;height:1px;color:#999;background-color:#999;width:100%;margin:0 0 9=
px 0;padding:0;"></hr><span style=3D"font-size:14px; color:#999999;">On Tue=
sday, February 11, 2020 Enquiries Road & Track &#60;<span style=3D"color:#0=
000A0">enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au</span>&#62; wrote:</span><br></br><div=
 id=3D"yiv2402869589"><html><div><div dir=3D"ltr">thanks Richard<div><br cl=
ear=3D"none"></div><div></div><div>some folks might like to read this link=
=C2=A0

<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.ti=
ldentechnologies.com/Cams/TriumphCams.html">https://www.tildentechnologies.=
com/Cams/TriumphCams.html</a>=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>=C2=A0 I disagree=C2=A0with your comment about grindin=
g stock cams. You cannot always get the lift desired as in some cases, you =
would end up grinding below the core of shaft. Again, this was a real commo=
n problem with early 2000 &amp; 2500 cams , which is whey they were often w=
elded on the nose as part of the modification process. In later production,=
 the factory used a larger diameter=C2=A0core , presumably to aid stiffness=
, but that gives a bit more flexibility when regrinding.=C2=A0=C2=A0<br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>You correctly point ou=
t that as you increase the lifter diameter then the peak velocity can also =
change. if you run the maths, a=C2=A0 change of 0.100&quot;=C2=A0 in lifter=
 diameter=C2=A0(a lot really) gives a 10% increase in acceptable peak veloc=
ity. Changing the lifter diameter=C2=A0is not for the feint-hearted, especi=
ally in a 6 cylinder where the lifter bores are angled to the block to prom=
ote lifter rotation.=C2=A0</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>It would=
 be good if Geoff Byrne elaborates a bit on his comment</div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>Terry O&#39;Beirne</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0<br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>=C2=A0<br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div>=C2=A0<br clear=3D"all"><div><div class=3D"yiv2402869589gmail_signatur=
e" dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Roa=
d and Track</div><div><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:=
enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:enquiries@r=
oadandtrack.net.au">enquiries@roadandtrack.net.au</a><br clear=3D"none">ph =
0428 815 117<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div></div><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv2402869589gmail_quote"><=
div class=3D"yiv2402869589gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Feb 12, 2020 at 1=
1:23 AM Richard Good via Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=
=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.t=
eam.net">fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"yiv2402869589gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex;"><p dir=3D"ltr">Mich=
ael,</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">People often seem to overlook the main performance benefit o=
f increasing the rocker ratio.=C2=A0 That is the increase in valve velocity=
.=C2=A0 The velocity of a flat tappet is limited by it&#39;s diameter. If y=
ou grind the cam lobe for too much velocity the contact patch will move out=
 past the edge of the lifter and things will self destruct.=C2=A0 So tappet=
 velocity is limited.=C2=A0 However, since tappet velocity times rocker rat=
io equals valve velocity, increasing the rocker ratio will increase valve v=
elocity.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">First decide what will be the optimum valve lift for your en=
gine then divide by rocker ratio to determine the net cam lift needed to ac=
hieve that valve lift.=C2=A0 Yes, you can grind the cam with a large enough=
 lobe to reach desired lift using stock rockers but you are limited in how =
fast you can open the valve.=C2=A0 Now if you grind the cam with less lift =
then use 1.65:1 rockers to reach that same desired valve lift you will be m=
oving the valve about 13% faster. That means it will be open further in a g=
iven period of time.=C2=A0 Graph it out and you will see a big difference.=
=C2=A0 Valve velocity is a huge factor in performance.=C2=A0 </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I can understand why someone who has tried to use high ratio=
 rockers with a cam that was already maxing out the valve lift with stock r=
ockers would decide that high ratio does not work.=C2=A0 Valve lift was alr=
eady at max. Increasing it further may be a detriment.=C2=A0 If duration wa=
s also maxed out for reasonable torque then the increase in lift during the=
 overlap period caused by the increase in rocker ratio may reduce the low e=
nd torque.=C2=A0 Properly applied with the right cam profile, high ratio ro=
ckers enable performance that is just not achievable with stock rockers.</p=
>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Richard Good<br clear=3D"none">
Good Parts Inc</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Sent from AOL Mobile Mail <br clear=3D"none">
Get the new AOL app: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" h=
ref=3D"http://mail.mobile.aol.com";>mail.mobile.aol.com</a></p>
<div></div><hr style=3D"border:0px;min-height:1px;color:rgb(153,153,153);ba=
ckground-color:rgb(153,153,153);width:100%;margin:0px 0px 9px;padding:0px;"=
><span style=3D"font-size:14px;color:rgb(153,153,153);">On Tuesday, Februar=
y 11, 2020 Michael Zbarsky via Fot &lt;<span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,160);">=
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:mzbarsky@yahoo.com"; ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:mzbarsky@yahoo.com";>mzbarsky@yahoo.com</a></=
span>&gt; wrote:</span><br clear=3D"none"><div id=3D"yiv2402869589gmail-m_3=
617476403406723811yiv6930218573"><div>
Thanks everyone! Good stuff. I=E2=80=99m sticking to a redline of just over=
=C2=A06K. I=E2=80=99d also like to keep the 1.65 setup rather than invest i=
n a 1.55 so keep the intel and=C2=A0suggestions coming. The GP3 is a defini=
te contender.=C2=A0<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Mike=C2=A0<br clear=
=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div id=
=3D"yiv2402869589gmail-m_3617476403406723811yiv6930218573yqt21880"><p style=
=3D"font-size:15px;color:rgb(113,95,250);padding-top:15px;margin-top:0px;">=
On Monday, February 10, 2020, 4:07 PM, Geoff Byrne &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" =
shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:gkbyrne@optusnet.com.au"; target=3D"_blank"=
 href=3D"mailto:gkbyrne@optusnet.com.au";>gkbyrne@optusnet.com.au</a>&gt; wr=
ote:</p><blockquote><div id=3D"yiv2402869589gmail-m_3617476403406723811yiv6=
930218573"><div>Ditch the 1.65 rockers no good for racing<div>Geoff Byrne</=
div><div>TR6 racer down under<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br clear=3D"none"><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite">On 11 Feb 2020, at 12:52 am, van.mulders.marcel--- via=
 Fot &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.tea=
m.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.=
net</a>&gt; wrote:<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></blockquote></div>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);">=
<div>I also once bought a Goodparts 1.65 rocker roller assembly for a TR6 e=
ngine, but in the end I had to use a 1.55 roller rocker assembly, also from=
 Goodparts, because, with the 1.65, it is difficult to find a race camshaft=
 with a=C2=A0 lobe lift that is low enough. With lobes of 8mm or higher, I =
could not find valve springs to cope with the high valve lift. I bought a G=
5 camshaft from Schneider, they call it=C2=A0 the 320-F grind (duration is =
268=C2=B0 at 0.050&quot;, timing is 57-83=C2=A0 =C2=A0 87-53 , installation=
 figure is then 103=C2=B0 :is that the same as the G5 grind?) with 0.340&qu=
ot;/8.6mm cam lift and that makes for a=C2=A0 valve lift of 12.9mm with the=
 1.55 rocker arms. With 1.65 rockers , valve lift would be 14.2mm and I cou=
ld not find valve springs for that lift. The valve springs I used are part =
no 281003-063.20 from Summit (Isky), 320lb/inch spring rate. They recommend=
 0.45&quot;/11.43mm=C2=A0 (1.250&quot; - 0.800&quot;from closed to full ope=
n position, so it is about 1.4mm more in my engine, but there is no problem=
 concerning=C2=A0 coil binding : the installed height is a 1mm more than 1.=
250 , the pressure in closed position is lower=C2=A0 of course, but still 3=
4kgs (105kgs at full lift) an that seems to be enough till 7500 rpm</div><d=
iv>Racetorations have a race cam with 7.6mm cam lift, probably that would w=
ork with 1.65 rocker arms. I still have the 1.65 rocker assembly, it is new=
 and it could work with a road cam or any camshaft with a maximum of 8mm ca=
m lift.</div><div>Marcel</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><hr id=3D"yiv24=
02869589gmail-m_3617476403406723811yiv6930218573zwchr"><div><b>Van: </b>&qu=
ot;fot&quot; &lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@a=
utox.team.net" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@aut=
ox.team.net</a>&gt;<br clear=3D"none"><b>Aan: </b>&quot;fot&quot; &lt;<a re=
l=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a>&gt;<b=
r clear=3D"none"><b>Verzonden: </b>Maandag 10 februari 2020 02:34:27<br cle=
ar=3D"none"><b>Onderwerp: </b>[Fot] Camshaft recommendation<br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>
Hi all, I=E2=80=99m building a TR6 race engine and have a set of 1.65 ratio=
 roller rockers from Goodparts. Any recommendations for a suitable camshaft=
? I will be putting in cam bearings.=C2=A0<div><br clear=3D"none"><div>Than=
ks, Mike<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"></div></di=
v>
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l=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://autox.team.n=
et/archive">http://autox.team.net/archive</a> <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"=
rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot";>http://w=
ww.team.net/pipermail/fot</a></span></div><br clear=3D"none"><span>Unsubscr=
ibe/Manage: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"ht=
tp://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gkbyrne@optushome.com.au">http://au=
tox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/gkbyrne@optushome.com.au</a></span><div id=
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ear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none"><span></span><br clear=3D"none=
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ckquote></div></div>
</div></div><div id=3D"yiv2402869589gmail-m_3617476403406723811yqt54816"><d=
iv>_______________________________________________<br clear=3D"none"><a rel=
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=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><br cl=
ear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none"><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=
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><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Donate: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D=
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rmail/fot</a><br clear=3D"none">Unsubscribe/Manage: <a rel=3D"nofollow" sha=
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arts@verizon.net</a><div class=3D"yiv2402869589yqt9822035734" id=3D"yiv2402=
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</div></div></div><div class=3D"yiv2402869589yqt9822035734" id=3D"yiv240286=
9589yqtfd79584">_______________________________________________<br clear=3D=
"none">
<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; ta=
rget=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><b=
r clear=3D"none">
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<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http://www.fot=
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<br clear=3D"none">
/www.team.net/donate.html">http://www.team.net/donate.html</a><br clear=3D"=
none">
Archive: <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"http:=
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track.net.au">http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/enquiries@roadandtr=
ack.net.au</a><div class=3D"yiv2402869589yqt9822035734" id=3D"yiv2402869589=
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