Keith/list
Well said!
Dave's commentaries are some of best common sense perspectives I have
seen when it comes to going fast -- on the salt or anywhere else for
that matter -- while part of the fun of land speed racing is figuring
out how to get fast, Dave is at that place where going faster is daily
fare.
That he shares his wealth of knowledge with the rest of us is as big a
gift as, say, a few dozen pulls on the dyno . . .
Speedy Regards,
"LandSpeed" Louise Ann Noeth
LandSpeed Productions
Telling stories with words and pictures
------------------------o0o--------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: "Keith Turk" <kturk@ala.net>
To: "dahlgren" <dahlgren@uconect.net>; "The Butters Family"
<bbutters@dmi.net>
Cc: <Land-speed@autox.team.net>
Sent: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 10:42 AM
Subject: Re: Bonneville Transmissions
> I been Racing my Girly Camaro what 2 years now.... and when it comes
to
> making it go fast I have done Okay on my own.... Dave kinda took me
under
> his wing last Year.... I honestly have to give him Credit for
Several of
> the Top speeds of the car....
>
> Kinda Like John Beckett and Tom Bryant... Doug Odom and Brad....when
they
> say something I simply sit back and listen... I could argue with
Dave
> about how we are going to do something... but it would be Pretty
Brain
> dead.... When he has the back round and knowledge to get it done....
Guys
> like me can be pretty frustrating.... I simply don't have all the
> answers... hell I am lucky to have a couple of the questions....
>
> Dave I truly do appreciate the time and effort... and when it's done
I sure
> ain't going to Hog the Glory of it... ( like there is any Glory...
how
> bout the respect of our Peers... each of us gains that by our
Knowledge..
> and experience... the unfortunate part is that folks can't see
behind the
> scenes)
>
> Keith
>
>
>
> ----------
> > From: dahlgren <dahlgren@uconect.net>
> > To: The Butters Family <bbutters@dmi.net>
> > Cc: Land-speed@autox.team.net
> > Subject: Re: Bonneville Transmissions
> > Date: Wednesday, August 30, 2000 7:43 AM
> >
> > I don't mean to flame or harass on this issue but I find it very
> > interesting and a core subject to the sport of land speed racing.
So
> > please don't take any of it the wrong way hopefully...This is long
and
> > may beg for the 'delete' key so be warned..
> >
> > if a theory is correct it works no matter what the variables are..
So i
> > did go out and put my car in second ..drove 100 feet a valid
distance in
> > my mind .. with the engine floored it was much slower than using
1'st
> > and second....car weighs 2500 lbs has about 150 hp and 170 ft lbs
> > torque..traction was not a problem in either case
> > I think your theory if it is going to work has to have unlimited
> > distance.. Acceleration does matter because if you are going
faster
> > sooner then you have more distance left to achieve the peak
velocity. By
> > the way the long course in my mind is only 4 miles long in the
first
> > place because the only way to reach the highest AVERAGE speed over
a
> > mile is to have the entry and exit speeds be as fast as the car
will go.
> > A good example would be a car that enters the final mile at 250
and
> > exits at 275.. if I put more gear in the car it will accelerate to
a
> > greater speed at the entrance because you have the is gearing
advantage
> > for the whole 4 mile previous and will only go slightly slower at
the
> > exit speed..I have been doing this since 1991 at bonneville and it
works
> > every time.. the downside is 1 it is harder on the engine(more
rpm) to a
> > small degree and 2 the driver hates the zero G input to the car
and
> > complains about it seeming to float.. The downside to not using a
> > transmission are 1 it wastes valuable real estate waiting for the
car to
> > get up to speed. 2 if there is any problem with the run there is
not
> > enough distance to ever recover 3 it is very very hard on the
bearings
> > to lug the engine down to a very low rpm and apply full load. it
is also
> > very hard on the pistons for several reasons the most being if you
have
> > a carb the main jets have no picked up yet and the engine will be
very
> > lean and the high egts will hurt the engine (burned piston)..If
you have
> > mechanical injection the engine will surely be fat and take a
while to
> > clear out if it does not wash the rings out..If you have EFI and
it is
> > tuned right the air fuel ratio will be good but now you are making
even
> > more power on the slow turning crank and beating the bearings to
death..
> > I really hate to blow my own horn.. but i have been racing
> > professionally since around 1975 24 hrs daytona Nascar winston cup
> > nascar Modified Bush cars..Drag races.. fastest car shootouts..won
> > zillions of races / championships / manufacturer titles / pole
> > positions..etc To be real candid if you went to every event held
at
> > bonneville and set a record at every one i suspect you have still
not
> > won enough....I am semi retired now as the pressure of all that
every
> > day was too much for me but did learn so many tough lessons that
they
> > are not forgotten.. I still consult, manufacture some parts that
always
> > seem to end up on winning cars and travel around doing tune up
work and
> > new product design for other companies. Do yourself a favor just
for
> > laughs. Try it my way and see if you car is faster...what is to
hurt by
> > running a different gear ratio for one pass or running the engine
up in
> > rpm and keeping it in the power peak for a full pass???? If it is
so
> > fragile that it can't stand the rpm then fix it...
> > At what RPM does your car make peak power?? peak torque??? In all
my
> > years i have never seen a car that did not go faster with more
torque at
> > the rear wheels, though i have seen many cars with suspension that
was
> > incapable of transmitting the power(fixable) and have seen drivers
that
> > would not drive and apply the torque sensibly(replaceable) and
have seen
> > tires that would not hook up(selected wrong) and have seen cars
that
> > were hopelessly constructed wrong(disposable).
> >
> > If you know the HP and torque #'s for your engine and the
appropriate
> > rpm,very valuable info, and your car is still accelerating beyond
the
> > last measured mile I am willing to bet you that if you work on the
> > gearing and shift points the car will go faster than it does now.
will
> > the peak speed be greater?? maybe , maybe not.. is there a record
for
> > exit speed?? not that i am aware of.. to attain peak speed in most
cases
> > the car has to run about 5 to 8% beyond the rpm for peak power
through
> > the entire timed distance and not be able to go very much faster
at the
> > 5 than it does at the 4 for the highest average speed. you should
be
> > right at the wall when you have no more power left to overcome the
aero
> > drag and rolling resistance with the engine is up to speed... If
the car
> > is not getting light then adding weight is worse than adding more
tire
> > to get the bite to this this because the rolling penalties are
less than
> > the inertia problems associated with the weight. You should be
racing
> > the lightest car that does not want to fly.. I would think that
anything
> > in the /CC classes can have any suspension they want. There are
many
> > designs that will apply torque very softly to the tires and allow
them
> > to hook up with small g loadings and do not rely on a great deal
of
> > weight transfer. If spinning the tires is a problem i would look
at the
> > suspension and tires way before taking power out of the car by
running
> > the engine in high gear only.......
> >
> > my opinion for what it is worth or not...but a real good topic to
kick
> > around..
> > Dahlgren
> >
> >
> > The Butters Family wrote:
> > >
> > > Well sort of your Pro stocker would have to be able to leave
the
> line in
> > > high gear and you would have to be able to run with the throttle
wide
> open
> > > for max. engine efficiency, neither of which are going to
happen.
> Believe
> > > Kieths car showed the increased speed because he was able to
run with
> a
> > > whole lot less wheel spin. First of all we are talking about
speed at
> a
> > > given distance, matching final gear ratio to the cars power
will
> determine
> > > ultimate top speed of course. My theory is that speed at
distance is
> > > determined by the total power available to do the job. With
gearing
> you
> > > can change your et, even cut your terminal velocity with two
short of
> gears
> > > but have little effect on how fast you are going at any given
point. If
> your
> > > street car has a stick shift go out and run it between two
points as
> hard
> > > as you can using all the gears, then do it in say second and
high,
> your
> > > speed should be nearly identical. The only explanation I
have for
> this
> > > is that even though the et was muuuch slower the motor was able
to do
> the
> > > same amount of work. While you would think blitzing threw the
HP peak
> > > several times would gain speed, apparently chugging threw it
builds the
> same
> > > speedOriginal Message ----- Well thats my story, my car is a 53
stude
> > > running a hemi BB/cc with a 3 speed TF, I'm sure it would be
just as
> fast
> > > with direct drive and a push to 60mph, wheel spin is a big
problem.
> Hope
> > > theis helps let you know where I am comming from. Best regards,
Kvach
> > > From: dahlgren <dahlgren@uconect.net>
> > > To: The Butters Family <bbutters@dmi.net>
> > > Cc: Marge and/or Dave Thomssen <mdthom@radiks.net>; Land-speed
Racers
> > > <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 1:22 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Bonneville Transmissions
> > >
> > > > So if I understand this right then... If I put my pro stock
car in
> 4th
> > > > and leave the starting line that that at the end of the
quarter mile
> the
> > > > car will go the same speed as if i used all the gears?? When
you
> lose 5
> > > > mph at the quarter does your car go the same speed at the 5 as
if you
> > > > were not 5 mph down?? Why do all the 'big' streamliners keep
wanting
> a
> > > > longer course ??? How fast does your car or cars you have
messed with
> go
> > > > ??? I am sure that if I start in any gear that my Pontiac i
drive on
> the
> > > > street will go exactly the same speed at the 5 no matter what
gear I
> > > > start in.. but going 125 is not much of a challenge either.
How do
> > > > explain away the change of shift points in Keith Turks car
making 203
> at
> > > > the 3 instead of 197 at the 5???? Doesn't having the correct
gearing
> and
> > > > going as fast as soon as possible make the course appear to be
longer
> > > > because you are going faster sooner and have more distance
left to
> get
> > > > the last MPH out of the car??
> > > >
> > > > to quote "We got a 225 record with 183cid 3rd gear only???
Nebulous"
> > > >
> > > > Is this the theory you are using?? Do you think the 225 might
of been
> a
> > > > 245 with all gears working??
> > > >
> > > > well we got a 216 record 219 qualifying with a 91cid gas
lakester and
> > > > went 213 at the 1/4... used all 5 gears.. which one is more
efficient
> > > > ??? and that was on the first pass.... Do you think if we left
in
> high
> > > > gear that the car would of gone 219 at the 5 on 91 inches ???
What's
> the
> > > > physics behind your theory??
> > > >
> > > > Oh yeah and the e-mail you quote.. what's that thing doing on
the
> long
> > > > course at 179 if you should be going over 175 at the quarter
in the
> > > > first place???
> > > >
> > > > Hate to make this sound like a flame but I really can't figure
out
> the
> > > > logic behind it all.. Help me be smarter and tell me how this
is all
> > > > supposed to make sense..
> > > > A very confused engineer..
> > > > Dave Dahlgren
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The Butters Family wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This has been my experience with every car
I've ever
> > > messed
> > > > > with, the speed it was able to generate in a given distance
> hadnothing
> > > to
> > > > > do with the number of gears you shifted it threw, just the
power
> it had
> > > > > available to do the job. Kvach----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Marge and/or Dave Thomssen <mdthom@radiks.net>
> > > > > To: Land-speed Racers <land-speed@autox.team.net>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2000 7:35 PM
> > > > > Subject: Bonneville Transmissions
> > > > >
> > > > > > Well, gang our experience might be interesting. In 1979
we ran
> the
> > > > > Original
> > > > > > Goldenrod streamliner (the one from Denver) with my
flathead
> (unblown
> > > on
> > > > > > gas) and a T-10 4 speed. It ran 179 MPH in the last mile
and we
> > > thought
> > > > > the
> > > > > > gear spread was just right for the motor until something
> malfunctioned
> > > in
> > > > > > the transmission and it locked in high gear. We pushed it
off as
> fast
> > > as
> > > > > we
> > > > > > could (60Mph) and it chugged off barely able to pull away
from
> the
> > > push
> > > > > > truck. The quarter time and the 2 and the 3 mile were
slow, but
> it ran
> > > > > > 179MPH in the last mile anyway. Anyone have similar
experience
> that
> > > might
> > > > > > suggest that a long course car doesn't need a transmission
at
> all?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dave the Hayseed
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
>
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