Hi
I think I can speak to this as I have acted as chief judge for the VTR for
the past two years. My comments relate only to the past two VTR National
events and not to any other shows are organizations. I think a healthy
discussion of judged events is helpful as I believe there are many
misconceptions that need to be addressed. I will be pleased to discuss
judging at length with anyone who has questions.
Cars do not get extra points for over restoration, but do get points
deducted. I know that this has happened for the last two years.
When paint is judged, it must be an original color. I remember looking at
the cars on the dealers lots and cars of the supposed same color looked
different. This is confirmed by those who worked at the factor because the
paint was purchased from different suppliers. I know that some of the
judges talk about shades and some may deduct points, but we try to stop it.
You could spend $10,000 on a paint job and it we would not add points.
Since the cars are judged as they looked (who really knows for sure) when
new, dings and dents do cause deductions.
Whether or not a car has a radio is not a judging point. If the car has a
radio, its installation must be neat, and if it is not points are deducted.
Having a period radio gets the car no additional points. The same goes for
heaters and all those other additional cost items. In fact, a car can score
higher with no accessories because there are fewer items to deduct for.
Most deductions are for dirt. I know, you can not drive the car and not get
dirt on it. Except for the race car I took to Portland last summer, I have
always driven my cars to the VTR. I have won my class, but each time, I had
to spend the night before the show cleaning my car. If a member does not
want to go to that trouble, they can always enter participants choice. Of
course the members control the by laws and can change them if enough want
to.
Personally, I think many of the misconceptions come from participants
choice. There shinny, over restored cars often win. I see cars advertised
as national show winners and in fact did win, but in participants choice,
not Concours.
If I could change the VTR rules for Concours, I would require anyone who
wanted to be in the Concours to attend judges school. That way they would
know what goes on, what to expect and what to question.
I am not saying that VTR judging is perfect. I know it is not because we
rely on volunteers whose knowledge of the cars may be limited. I also know
that any two people never see things in exactly the same way.
As long as judgement is in judging we will never get everyone ok.
Vernon
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Sohl [mailto:billsohl@smtp.interactive.net]
Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2000 3:58 PM
To: fot@autox.team.net
Subject: Re: Points deductions, concours
From: Self <billsohl
Subject: Re: Points deductions, concours
Reply-to: billsohl@interactive.net
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2000 20:41:51
Ted wrote:
> when the judged cars are better than anything we had in our showroom
> new, they should also be awarded over-the-edge demerit points. we sold
> these cars new and know how good they weren't. maybe real points for
> real cars should be the judging criteria. example, we sold most of the
> cars without radios but occasionally someoen would want a radio. if
> they wanted the oem radio, be it bmc or standard triumph, we would
> install it. if they didn't care what radio, there wer ebetter ones on
> the market so we would use one of those. now, this brand x radio was
> priced on their original invoice from our delareship. if years later
> they show up at a meet, should they be docked points for this radio?
> certainly not. it came with the car from an authroized dealer. this goes
> on and on. ted
> Ted Schumacher
Well VTR has not deducted points for correct period
accesories (at least as far as I can recall) so hopefully it
isn't a problem at VTR events.
As to car that are "over restored". I think as long
as those cars that ARE equivalent to factory
build specs and appearance don't lose points
in the comparison, then things will be about as
good/fair as they can. Over restoration is a real
can-o-worms for any car judging, be it VTR,
AACA or just about any club.
Cheers,
Bill Sohl
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