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I think, if the meshing pattern on both thrust and overrun are the same
(contact between the teeth are at the same spots on thrust and overrun), the
set up must be correct and you can disregard the difference between Oerlikon
and Gleason gears in this aspect. Transferring shims from one side of the
carrier to the other has most effect on the backlash and less on the depth of
the meshing, and vice versa by adding or removing shims on the pinion. Maybe
adding or removing a shim of the same thickness has not the same effect on
Gleason and Oerlikon gears, but I believe the changes (mesh pattern and
backlash) are going in the same direction on both makes. But I'm from Belgium
... :-)
Marcel
Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Aan: "fubog1" <fubog1@aol.com>
Cc: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Verzonden: Donderdag 13 september 2018 12:52:10
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastuck gear sets are Oerlikon as
opposed to Gleason gears. Apparently they require a different mesh pattern.
Does anyone have a good resource for pictures of the proper mesh pattern for
the Oerlikon type gears? I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck
there.
Thanks.
Greg
Sent from my iPhone
On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog1 via Fot < [ mailto:fot@autox.team.net |
fot@autox.team.net ] > wrote:
The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly,
they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.
There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the
internet.
I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half
dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while
holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the
ring.
I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments
once the good bearings are fitted.
Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab
a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in
but I've done many without.
Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring
gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is
nice and smooth in both directions.
A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from
warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a
good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner
races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend
but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long...
Glen
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Kramer via Fot < [ mailto:fot@autox.team.net | fot@autox.team.net ] >
To: Michael Porter < [ mailto:mdporter@dfn.com | mdporter@dfn.com ] >
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph < [ mailto:fot@autox.team.net |
fot@autox.team.net ] >
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in
I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the ID of
the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies.
Bob Kramer
On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter < [ mailto:mdporter@dfn.com |
mdporter@dfn.com ] > wrote:
BQ_BEGIN
On 9/10/2018 3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via Fot wrote:
BQ_BEGIN
I can't answer that but one could measure the dimension of the pinion head and
subtract it from the total shown to get the depth you would want.
Bob Kramer
I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing errors,
tolerances stacking up, etc. Most of the parts made at the time were not
subject to the sort of scrutiny and computer-controlled measurements that are
common today (although even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo
a bunch of Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for the carrier
bearings left to right).
That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is attention to the
shims when disassembling, and then putting the shims back in the same
thicknesses and checking for the proper engagement pattern. It does require
some educated guesswork, and, often, disassembling and assembling a couple of
times, but, if the pattern is right, the diff will be reliable. I'd also
recommend using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
possible if the pinion originally used those. It also is a bit easier if one
uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings requiring same, and
doesn't crank it up too much. Spread the case just enough to get the carrier
and bearings out. Figuring out the shim packs will be easier.
Cheers.
--
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance....
BQ_END
_______________________________________________
[ mailto:fot@autox.team.net | fot@autox.team.net ]
[ http://www.fot-racing.com/ | http://www.fot-racing.com ]
Archive: [ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot |
http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot ]
BQ_END
BQ_BEGIN
_______________________________________________
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Archive: [ http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot |
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BQ_END
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Archive: http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot
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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div>I think, if the meshing pattern on=
both thrust and overrun are the same (contact between the teeth are at the=
same spots on thrust and overrun), the set up must be correct and you can =
disregard the difference between Oerlikon and Gleason gears in this aspect.=
Transferring shims from one side of the carrier to the other has most effe=
ct on the backlash and less on the depth of the meshing, and vice versa by =
adding or removing shims on the pinion. Maybe adding or removing a sh=
im of the same thickness has not the same effect on Gleason and Oerlikon ge=
ars, but I believe the changes (mesh pattern and backlash) are going in the=
same direction on both makes. But I'm from Belgium ... :-)</div><div>Marce=
l</div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__H=
EADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"fot" <fot@autox.team.net><br><b>Aan: </b>"fubo=
g1" <fubog1@aol.com><br><b>Cc: </b>"fot" <fot@autox.team.net><b=
r><b>Verzonden: </b>Donderdag 13 september 2018 12:52:10<br><b>Onderwerp: <=
/b>Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br></div><br><div data-mar=
ker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__">Speaking of pattern, Chris mentioned that the Bastu=
ck gear sets are <span>Oerlikon as opposed to Gleason gears. Apparentl=
y they require a different mesh pattern. Does anyone have a good resource f=
or pictures of the proper mesh pattern for the Oerlikon type gears? &n=
bsp;I can not find one. I contacted Bastuck with no luck there. </span=
><br><div>Thanks. </div><br><div>Greg<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture">Sent from my iPhone</div><div><br>On Sep 12, 2018, at 12:22 PM, fubog=
1 via Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=3D"_blank">fot@a=
utox.team.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><span color=3D"b=
lack" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" data-mce-style=3D"co=
lor: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: small;" s=
tyle=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:=
small;">
<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_0ef1842b-a91c-4583-a1b1-489a8d2c7f0d">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">
<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_3c5bcc87-bb0b-436d-ac40-3730f0a9151a">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">
<div> <span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-s=
ize: small;">The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't=
mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patte=
rns on the internet.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, =
paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few ti=
mes, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times=
around the ring.<br>
</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine=
adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush coll=
ar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to=
set the carrier in but I've done many without.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on o=
ne of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel =
when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have r=
unout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash =
setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier =
bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctit=
e is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long..=
.</span></div>
<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Glen<br>
</span></div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: black;"=
data-mce-style=3D"font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt; color: bl=
ack;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; target=
=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
To: Michael Porter <<a href=3D"mailto:mdporter@dfn.com"; target=3D"_blank=
">mdporter@dfn.com</a>><br>
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <<a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net"; t=
arget=3D"_blank">fot@autox.team.net</a>><br>
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am<br>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>
<br>
<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67">
<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody">
<div dir=3D"ltr">I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can=
grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for tes=
t assemblies.</div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
<div>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael=
Porter <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferr=
er" href=3D"mailto:mdporter@dfn.com";>mdporter@dfn.com</a>></span> wrote:=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 .8ex; bord=
er-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;" data-mce-style=3D"margin: 0 0 =
0 .8ex; border-left: 1px #ccc solid; padding-left: 1ex;">
=20
=20
=20
=20
<div>
=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018 3:=
41 PM, Bob Kramer via
Fot wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
=20
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">I can't answer that but one could measure the
dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
shown to get the depth you would want. </div>
=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
=20
<div>
=20
<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201gmail_signature">
=20
<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
errors, tolerances stacking up, etc. Most of the parts made at th=
e
time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and
computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although
even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of
Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for
the carrier bearings left to right).<br>
<br>
That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is
attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the
shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper
engagement pattern. It does require some educated guesswork, and,
often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the
pattern is right, the diff will be reliable. I'd also recommend
using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
possible if the pinion originally used those. It also is a bit
easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings
requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much. Spread the case
just enough to get the carrier and bearings out. Figuring out the
shim packs will be easier.<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers. <br>
<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><span color=3D"#888888" data-mce-style=3D"co=
lor: #888888;" style=3D"color: #888888;">
<pre class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">--=20
Michael Porter
Roswell, NM
Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....</pre>
</span></span></div>
</blockquote></div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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</span></div></blockquote><blockquote><div><span>__________________________=
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