Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in

["van.mulders.marcel--- via Fot" <fot@autox.team.net>]

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Sometimes, I find that it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh pattern 
right at the same time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for the 
correct mesh pattern then, with a backlash that is greater than recommended. Is 
that only a sign of wear ? 
Marcel 

Van: "fot" <fot@autox.team.net> 
Aan: "Bob Kramer" <rkramer56@gmail.com>, mdporter@dfn.com, "fot" 
<fot@autox.team.net> 
Verzonden: Woensdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39 
Onderwerp: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't mesh properly, 
they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail. 
There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patterns on the 
internet. 
I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, paint a half 
dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few times, while 
holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times around the 
ring. 
I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine adjustments 
once the good bearings are fitted. 
Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush collar either, I fab 
a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to set the carrier in 
but I've done many without. 
Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on one of the ring 
gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel when the mesh is 
nice and smooth in both directions. 
A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have runout from 
warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash setting or a 
good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier bearing inner 
races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctite is your friend 
but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long... 
Glen 

-----Original Message----- 
From: Bob Kramer via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> 
To: Michael Porter <mdporter@dfn.com> 
Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph <fot@autox.team.net> 
Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am 
Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in 

I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can grind out the ID of 
the old races to make it easier to remove them for test assemblies. 

Bob Kramer 

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael Porter < [ mailto:mdporter@dfn.com | 
mdporter@dfn.com ] > wrote: 



On 9/10/2018 3:41 PM, Bob Kramer via Fot wrote: 

BQ_BEGIN

I can't answer that but one could measure the dimension of the pinion head and 
subtract it from the total shown to get the depth you would want. 

Bob Kramer 



I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing errors, 
tolerances stacking up, etc. Most of the parts made at the time were not 
subject to the sort of scrutiny and computer-controlled measurements that are 
common today (although even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo 
a bunch of Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that 
assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for the carrier 
bearings left to right). 

That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is attention to the 
shims when disassembling, and then putting the shims back in the same 
thicknesses and checking for the proper engagement pattern. It does require 
some educated guesswork, and, often, disassembling and assembling a couple of 
times, but, if the pattern is right, the diff will be reliable. I'd also 
recommend using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever 
possible if the pinion originally used those. It also is a bit easier if one 
uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings requiring same, and 
doesn't crank it up too much. Spread the case just enough to get the carrier 
and bearings out. Figuring out the shim packs will be easier. 


Cheers. 
-- 


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance.... 

BQ_END


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<html><body><div style=3D"font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-seri=
f; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000"><div><br></div><div>Sometimes, I find t=
hat it is not possible to get the backlash and mesh pattern right at the sa=
me time (on a diff that has not been welded). I go for the correct mesh pat=
tern then, with a backlash that is greater than recommended. Is that only a=
 sign of wear ?&nbsp;</div><div>Marcel</div><hr id=3D"zwchr" data-marker=3D=
"__DIVIDER__"><div data-marker=3D"__HEADERS__"><b>Van: </b>"fot" &lt;fot@au=
tox.team.net&gt;<br><b>Aan: </b>"Bob Kramer" &lt;rkramer56@gmail.com&gt;, m=
dporter@dfn.com, "fot" &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;<br><b>Verzonden: </b>Woen=
sdag 12 september 2018 19:22:39<br><b>Onderwerp: </b>Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown a=
nd pinion gear break in<br></div><br><div data-marker=3D"__QUOTED_TEXT__"><=
span color=3D"black" size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" data-=
mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-=
size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-se=
rif; font-size: small;">
<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">

<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_0ef1842b-a91c-4583-a1b1-489a8d2c7f0d">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">

<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">


<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_2_3c5bcc87-bb0b-436d-ac40-3730f0a9151a">
<span size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" color=3D"black" data=
-mce-style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font=
-size: small;" style=3D"color: black; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-s=
erif; font-size: small;">


<div> <span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-s=
ize: small;">The pattern is everything when setting gears up, if they don't=
 mesh properly, they're gonna run hot, make noise, and fail.</span></div>



<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">There are plenty of photos and illustrations of different patte=
rns on the internet.</span></div>



<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I mix a little injuneers blue in with lubriplate white grease, =
paint a half dozen teeth or so, and wrench the ring back and forth a few ti=
mes, while holding the pinion flange for extra preload; repeat 3 or 4 times=
 around the ring.<br>

</span></div>





<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">I use set-up bearings but it's not unusual to have to make fine=
 adjustments once the good bearings are fitted.</span></div>





<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Preload is equally important, I don't use the pinion crush coll=
ar either, I fab a solid collar and fit shims; a case spreader is easier to=
 set the carrier in but I've done many without.</span></div>





<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Once you have everything set, you can put a box-end wrench on o=
ne of the ring gear bolts and work it back and forth hard and you can feel =
when the mesh is nice and smooth in both directions.</span></div>





<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">A couple things to watch for, sometimes the carrier will have r=
unout from warpage when it was welded, you'll never get a correct backlash =
setting or a good pattern all the way around, and I often find the carrier =
bearing inner races turning on the journal, if not too worn a little loctit=
e is your friend but if that race turns on the carrier it won't live long..=
.</span></div>



<div><span size=3D"2" data-mce-style=3D"font-size: small;" style=3D"font-si=
ze: small;">Glen<br>


</span></div>





<div> <br>


</div>





<div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----=
Original Message-----<br>


From: Bob Kramer via Fot &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;<br>


To: Michael Porter &lt;mdporter@dfn.com&gt;<br>


Cc: Triumph 'Friends of Triumph &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;<br>


Sent: Wed, Sep 12, 2018 8:57 am<br>


Subject: Re: [Fot] Fwd: Crown and pinion gear break in<br>


<br>






<div id=3D"AOLMsgPart_1.2_69f3ee0f-771d-4796-bddc-148817a98a67">



<div class=3D"aolReplacedBody">


<div dir=3D"ltr">I would add that if you buy the same brand bearing you can=
 grind out the ID of the old races to make it easier to remove them for tes=
t assemblies.</div>





<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">


<div>


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_signature">


<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>


</div>


</div>



<br>





<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 2:08 PM, Michael=
 Porter <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferr=
er" href=3D"mailto:mdporter@dfn.com";>mdporter@dfn.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br>


<blockquote class=3D"aolmail_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
 =20


<div>
   =20


<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-cite-prefix">On 9/10/2018 3:=
41 PM, Bob Kramer via
      Fot wrote:<br>



    </div>



    <blockquote>
     =20
     =20


<div dir=3D"ltr">I can't answer that but one could measure the
        dimension of the pinion head and subtract it from the total
        shown to get the depth you would want.&nbsp;</div>



     =20


<div class=3D"aolmail_gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"all">
       =20


<div>
         =20


<div class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201gmail_signature">
           =20


<div dir=3D"ltr">Bob Kramer</div>



          </div>



        </div>



      </div>



    </blockquote>
    <br>



    I suspect that there are variations in parts due to manufacturing
    errors, tolerances stacking up, etc.&nbsp; Most of the parts made at th=
e
    time were not subject to the sort of scrutiny and
    computer-controlled measurements that are common today (although
    even that isn't a guarantee of uniformity--I had to redo a bunch of
    Toyota Supra IRS diffs in the early `80s because the computer that
    assembled them was misprogrammed and it swapped the shim stacks for
    the carrier bearings left to right).<br>



    <br>



    That said, the safest way to get the diff repaired properly is
    attention to the shims when disassembling, and then putting the
    shims back in the same thicknesses and checking for the proper
    engagement pattern.&nbsp; It does require some educated guesswork, and,
    often, disassembling and assembling a couple of times, but, if the
    pattern is right, the diff will be reliable.&nbsp; I'd also recommend
    using hard shims in place of crush spacers on the pinion whenever
    possible if the pinion originally used those.&nbsp; It also is a bit
    easier if one uses the case spreader judiciously on those housings
    requiring same, and doesn't crank it up too much.&nbsp; Spread the case
    just enough to get the carrier and bearings out.&nbsp; Figuring out the
    shim packs will be easier.<br>



    <br>



    <br>



    Cheers.&nbsp; <br>


<span class=3D"aolmail_HOEnZb"><span color=3D"#888888" data-mce-style=3D"co=
lor: #888888;" style=3D"color: #888888;">
    <pre class=3D"aolmail_m_4645890251388782201moz-signature">--=20


Michael Porter
Roswell, NM


Never let anyone drive you crazy when you know it's within walking distance=
....</pre>
  </span></span></div>




</blockquote></div>


<br>


</div>



</div>



</div>



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