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Re: [Fot] Center main support

To: DAVE HOGYE <dlhogye@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Fot] Center main support
From: Phil Gott via Fot <fot@autox.team.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 07:07:02 -0500
Cc: "John H. Hasty via Fot" <fot@autox.team.net>
Delivered-to: mharc@autox.team.net
Delivered-to: fot@autox.team.net
References: <1250945834.133204.1574648863421@connect.xfinity.com>
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Thanks everyone for the input!
Very helpful!
Phil

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:28 PM, DAVE HOGYE via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wrote=
:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> My brother worked for Gran Turismo Jaguar in Northern Ohio a few decades a=
go and I remember well him telling me they taught him how to straighten cran=
ks with a mallet of some sort, set up in a rotational device.   I thought it=
 was barbaric at the time having never heard of that sort of thing, but GTJ d=
efinitely knew what they were doing.  GTJ built championship winning Jags.=20=

> Dave H.=20
>>> On November 24, 2019 at 4:57 PM "John H. Hasty via Fot" <fot@autox.team.=
net> wrote:=20
>>>=20
>>> Chris:  That is exactly how we built the roller bearing crank half's for=
 our two stroke GP bikes... well placed blows with a brass hammer and in an h=
our or so you end up with a straight crank=20
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 6:27 PM, Chris Marx via Fot <fot@autox.team.net> wro=
te:=20
>>>=20
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> If I give a crank to the machine shop for testing and maybe polishing th=
ey also correcting straightness.
>>>=20
>>> They using a hammer and a wedge like tool with brass or bronze surface a=
nd giving it a big blow at some places to make it straight.
>>>=20
>>> They also checking with magna flux system for cracks.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I run 0.0027=E2=80=9D main bearing clearance.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> For sure Kas throw in is right. I keep the revs below 6k with the standa=
rd crank.
>>>=20
>>> Many people going up to 7k with their engines but I don=E2=80=99t dare. A=
 billet crank might help a little but I saw billet cranks breaking too.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Engine power is not my main concern. Cornering speed is.
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Cheers
>>>=20
>>> Chris
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Von: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net> Im Auftrag von Phil Gott via Fot
>>> Gesendet: Sonntag, 24. November 2019 22:03
>>> An: Friends Of Triumph <fot@autox.team.net>
>>> Betreff: Re: [Fot] Center main support
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Interesting, Chris:
>>>=20
>>> My machine shop said that .002=E2=80=9D run out at the center main, with=
 the crank supported and spun on numbers 1 and 3 was a sign that it was deve=
loping high levels of internal stress (work hardening) and that it should be=
 retired. They aim for 0 run out under these conditions. Based on what you=E2=
=80=99ve said, I wonder if they are being overly cautious. As they do not gr=
ind cranks themselves ( only polishing and balancing), they had little to ga=
in from that diagnosis.
>>> Thanks for the input.
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Tony Drews <tony@tonydrews.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Wow!  It's very nicely done.  Certainly overkill.
>>>=20
>>> Regards, Tony
>>>=20
>>> On 11/23/2019 9:11 PM, Phil Gott wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Here are some photos:
>>>=20
>>> <image0.jpeg>
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> <image1.jpeg>
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> <image2.jpeg>
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Tony Drews <tony@tonydrews.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I agree, that sounds like overkill.  Mine only requires the top of the c=
ap to be machined flat, no other block mods.
>>>=20
>>> Regards, Tony
>>>=20
>>> On 11/23/2019 5:42 AM, Phil Gott wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Thanks again, Tony:
>>>=20
>>> The one we have, built by the late Bill  Throop, in addition to reinforc=
ing the cap itself, has the block machined internally to accept the sides of=
 a strap, then the strap  is cross bolted from the sides, through the block f=
rom outside.  I=E2=80=99m wondering if this is a bit of overkill. Based on y=
our recommendation, it seems to be.
>>>=20
>>> Maybe I can send some pictures later today, as we are pulling the engine=
 today for other work.
>>>=20
>>> Phil
>>>=20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Nov 22, 2019, at 10:56 PM, Tony Drews <tony@tonydrews.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> I run that setup, it was an uncle jack trick.  Here's what he wrote abou=
t that (on my engine building tips page):
>>>=20
>>> "I also like to strap the center main to add rigidity to the bottom end.=
  To do this, mill off the cast face of the main flush with the surfaces for=
 the head bolts. Get a front strap for a Chevy 400 block. You must enlarge t=
he holes in the strap  and you must use longer bolts.  Some  builders feel t=
hat this is totally unnecessary, but since starting to do this, I have never=
 had a main bearing deteriorate faster than a rod bearing, which is somethin=
g that happens more frequently than you would expect."
>>>=20
>>> Regards, Tony Drews
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>>=20
>>> On 11/22/2019 3:58 PM, Phil Gott via Fot wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Has anyone seen the need to add extra support to the center main on the T=
R wet sleeve engine? We have an engine that has a steel bridge cross-bolted u=
nderneath and supporting the center main cap. Is this needed? Just took 3 fa=
ctory cranks to the machine shop and all three were bent about .002 in (.002=
 run out at center main when supported on first and last mains.) Two of thes=
e were raced, the third was removed from a tired street engine. note: None o=
f these cranks came out of the engine with extra support at the center.
>>>                  =20
>>> Curious as to the need for the extra support.
>>>                  =20
>>> Thanks,
>>>                  =20
>>> Phil Gott
>>>                  =20
>>> 114 TR4A
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>                  =20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>>                  =20
>>> fot@autox.team.net
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>> http://www.fot-racing.com
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
>>>                  =20
>>> Archive: http://autox.team.net/archive http://www.team.net/pipermail/fot=

>>>                  =20
>>> Unsubscribe/Manage: http://autox.team.net/mailman/options/fot/tony@tonyd=
rews.com
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                  =20
>>>                    =20
>>>                  =20
>>> _______________________________________________=20
>>> fot@autox.team.net=20
>>>=20
>>> http://www.fot-racing.com=20
>>>=20
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=20
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-law.com=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________=20
>> fot@autox.team.net=20
>>=20
>> http://www.fot-racing.com=20
>>=20
>> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html=20
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cast.net=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> fot@autox.team.net
>=20
> http://www.fot-racing.com
>=20
> Donate: http://www.team.net/donate.html
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Thanks everyone for the input!<div>Very hel=
pful!</div><div>Phil<br><div><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:28 PM, D=
AVE HOGYE via Fot &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

 =20
  <meta charset=3D"UTF-8">=20
=20
=20
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; c=
olor: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
   My brother worked for Gran Turismo Jaguar in Northern Ohio a few decades a=
go and I remember well him telling me they taught him how to straighten cran=
ks with a mallet of some sort, set up in a rotational device. &nbsp; I thoug=
ht it was barbaric at the time having never heard of that sort of thing, but=
 GTJ definitely knew what they were doing. &nbsp;GTJ built championship winn=
ing Jags.&nbsp;
  </div>
  <div style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: helvetica, arial, sans-serif; c=
olor: rgb(51, 51, 51);">
   Dave H.&nbsp;
  </div>
  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
   On November 24, 2019 at 4:57 PM "John H. Hasty via Fot" &lt;fot@autox.tea=
m.net&gt; wrote:=20
   <br>=20
   <br> Chris: &nbsp;That is exactly how we built the roller bearing crank h=
alf's for our two stroke GP bikes... well placed blows with a brass hammer a=
nd in an hour or so you end up with a straight crank=20
   <br>=20
   <br>
   <div dir=3D"ltr">
    Sent from my iPhone
   </div>
   <div dir=3D"ltr">
    <br>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
     On Nov 24, 2019, at 6:27 PM, Chris Marx via Fot &lt;fot@autox.team.net&=
gt; wrote:=20
     <br>=20
     <br>
    </blockquote>
   </div>
   <blockquote type=3D"cite">
    <div dir=3D"ltr">
     <div class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-WordSection1">
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Hi Phil,</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">If I give a crank to the machine s=
hop for testing and maybe polishing they also correcting straightness.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">They using a hammer and a wedge l=
ike tool with brass or bronze surface and giving it a big blow at some place=
s to make it straight.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">They also checking with magna flu=
x system for cracks.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">I run 0.0027=E2=80=9D main bearin=
g clearance.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">For sure Kas throw in is right. I=
 keep the revs below 6k with the standard crank.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Many people going up to 7k with t=
heir engines but I don=E2=80=99t dare. A billet crank might help a little bu=
t I saw billet cranks breaking too.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Engine power is not my main conce=
rn. Cornering speed is.</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Cheers</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Chris</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <div>
       <div style=3D"border: none; border-top: solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:=
 3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;">
        <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal"><strong>Von:</strong> Fot &lt;f=
ot-bounces@autox.team.net&gt; <strong>Im Auftrag von </strong>Phil Gott via =
Fot<br> <strong>Gesendet:</strong> Sonntag, 24. November 2019 22:03<br> <str=
ong>An:</strong> Friends Of Triumph &lt;fot@autox.team.net&gt;<br> <strong>B=
etreff:</strong> Re: [Fot] Center main support</p>
       </div>
      </div>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
      <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Interesting, Chris:</p>
      <div>
       <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">My machine shop said that .002=E2=
=80=9D run out at the center main, with the crank supported and spun on numb=
ers 1 and 3 was a sign that it was developing high levels of internal stress=
 (work hardening) and that it should be retired. They aim for 0 run out unde=
r these conditions. Based on what you=E2=80=99ve said, I wonder if they are b=
eing overly cautious. As they do not grind cranks themselves ( only polishin=
g and balancing), they had little to gain from that diagnosis.<br> Thanks fo=
r the input.</p>
       <div>
        <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone</p>
       </div>
       <div>
        <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal"><br> <br></p>
        <blockquote>
         <p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNorma=
l">On Nov 24, 2019, at 9:26 AM, Tony Drews &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tony@tonydr=
ews.com">tony@tonydrews.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
        </blockquote>
       </div>
       <blockquote>
        <div>
         <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;<br></p>
         <p>Wow!&nbsp; It's very nicely done.&nbsp; Certainly overkill.</p>
         <p>Regards, Tony</p>
         <div>
          <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">On 11/23/2019 9:11 PM, Phil G=
ott wrote:</p>
         </div>
         <blockquote>
          <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Here are some photos:</p>
          <div>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&lt;image0.jpeg&gt;</p>
           </div>
           <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&lt;image1.jpeg&gt;</p>
           </div>
           <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
            <div>
             <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&lt;image2.jpeg&gt;</p>
            </div>
           </div>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
           </div>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
           </div>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone</p>
           </div>
           <div>
            <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal"><br> <br></p>
            <blockquote>
             <p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoN=
ormal">On Nov 23, 2019, at 12:23 PM, Tony Drews <a href=3D"mailto:tony@tonyd=
rews.com">&lt;tony@tonydrews.com&gt;</a> wrote:</p>
            </blockquote>
           </div>
           <blockquote>
            <div>
             <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;<br></p>
             <p>I agree, that sounds like overkill.&nbsp; Mine only requires=
 the top of the cap to be machined flat, no other block mods.</p>
             <p>Regards, Tony</p>
             <div>
              <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">On 11/23/2019 5:42 AM, Ph=
il Gott wrote:</p>
             </div>
             <blockquote>
              <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Thanks again, Tony:</p>
              <div>
               <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">The one we have, built b=
y the late Bill &nbsp;Throop, in addition to reinforcing the cap itself, has=
 the block machined internally to accept the sides of a strap, then the stra=
p &nbsp;is cross bolted from the sides, through the block from outside. &nbs=
p;I=E2=80=99m wondering if this is a bit of overkill. Based on your recommen=
dation, it seems to be.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
               <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Maybe I can send some pi=
ctures later today, as we are pulling the engine today for other work.</p>
              </div>
              <div>
               <p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-Ms=
oNormal">Phil</p>
               <div>
                <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Sent from my iPhone</p>=

               </div>
               <div>
                <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal"><br> <br></p>
                <blockquote>
                 <p style=3D"margin-bottom: 12.0pt;" class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-=
MsoNormal">On Nov 22, 2019, at 10:56 PM, Tony Drews <a href=3D"mailto:tony@t=
onydrews.com">&lt;tony@tonydrews.com&gt;</a> wrote:</p>
                </blockquote>
               </div>
               <blockquote>
                <div>
                 <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;<br></p>
                 <p>I run that setup, it was an uncle jack trick.&nbsp; Here=
's what he wrote about that (on my engine building tips page):</p>
                 <p><span style=3D"font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Tahoma',=
sans-serif; color: black; background: white;">"I also like to strap the cent=
er main to add rigidity to the bottom end.&nbsp; To do this, mill off the ca=
st face of the main flush with the surfaces for the head bolts. Get a front s=
trap for a Chevy 400 block. You must enlarge the holes in the strap&nbsp; an=
d you must use longer bolts. &nbsp;Some&nbsp; builders feel that this is tot=
ally unnecessary, but since starting to do this, I have never had a main bea=
ring deteriorate faster than a rod bearing, which is something that happens m=
ore frequently than you would expect."</span></p>
                 <div>
                  <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">Regards, Tony Drews</=
p>
                 </div>
                 <div>
                  <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
                 </div>
                 <div>
                  <p class=3D"ox-bcb1e9c26f-MsoNormal">On 11/22/2019 3:58 PM=
, Phil Gott via Fot wrote:</p>
                 </div>
                 <blockquote>
                  <pre>Has anyone seen the need to add extra support to the c=
enter main on the TR wet sleeve engine? We have an engine that has a steel b=
ridge cross-bolted underneath and supporting the center main cap. Is this ne=
eded? Just took 3 factory cranks to the machine shop and all three were bent=
 about .002 in (.002 run out at center main when supported on first and last=
 mains.) Two of these were raced, the third was removed from a tired street e=
ngine. note: None of these cranks came out of the engine with extra support a=
t the center.
                  </pre>
                  <pre>Curious as to the need for the extra support.
                  </pre>
                  <pre>Thanks,
                  </pre>
                  <pre>Phil Gott
                  </pre>
                  <pre>114 TR4A
                  </pre>
                  <pre>                 =20
                   &nbsp;
                  </pre>
                  <pre>Sent from my iPhone
                  </pre>
                  <pre>_______________________________________________
                  </pre>
                  <pre><a href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.=
net</a>
                  </pre>
                  <pre>                 =20
                   &nbsp;
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racing.com</a>
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                 </blockquote>
                </div>
               </blockquote>
              </div>
             </blockquote>
            </div>
           </blockquote>
          </div>
         </blockquote>
        </div>
       </blockquote>
      </div>
     </div>_______________________________________________=20
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lor: #333333;" class=3D"default-style">
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