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Dear Ken,
=20
a really interesting discussion.
As far I know=E2=80=A6.F1 cars do enter air in the engine compartment =
and waste it through the rear diffusor together with the exhaust fumes.
But maybe I=E2=80=99m not up to date.
=20
I only look at my car at speed. What is going on, which air is going =
where, what item needs cooling, what suffers from heat.
I would say that my car is one of the most reliable cars on the grid.
We don=E2=80=99t have desert races here but the temperatures can climb =
above 40=C2=B0C in the shadow. Not often but occasionally.
I don=E2=80=99t look on my car stationary. Stationary cars might profit =
from wrapped headers.
=20
You=E2=80=99re right, Porsche did the measurements on the crossflow =
heads. Our heads are even more sensitive to wrapped headers because the =
header and intake are on the same side and close neighbors.
I gloss polished my intake header to reflect any heat radiation from the =
exhaust. As a result only conducted heat does heat it up.
Conduction takes place from the head side. The cooler the exhaust header =
and head is, the less the intake heats up, gives more power as the =
intake charge remains colder and more dense.=20
To cool the exhaust header I need fresh air.
I don=E2=80=99t use an airbox as an airbox is a reflection chamber for =
all 4 cylinders and I don=E2=80=99t have the opportunity to calculate =
if the wavefronts of the intake process interfere in a bad manner or in =
a positive manner. Using no airbox is in my opinion the safe side.
=20
I don=E2=80=99t rev my engine high. 5800 or maybe 6200 if needed. The =
overdrive is keeping the revs low.
My engine is designed to give good torque but not high power. It =
produces about 170foot pound something and the curve starts from 3000 =
=E2=80=93 5800 rpm.
=20
Cheers
Chris
=20
=20
=20
Von: kknight@klaenv.com <kknight@klaenv.com>=20
Gesendet: Dienstag, 14. Juni 2022 16:43
An: tr4racing@googlemail.com
Betreff: RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...
=20
Chris;
=20
All interesting points. However, no modern race car puts any more air =
through the engine compartment than needed=E2=80=A6.at speed. Notice =
all those F1 cars being cooled by dry ice fans at rest. You want just =
enough air in to cool the radiator and this I have accomplished. Never =
a cooling problem at tempartures your side of the pond will likely never =
see. All the other componants have all worked well for years. I do =
wrap the starter with an insulated blanket for extra protection since is =
sits right on top of the collector.
=20
Several folks have done dyno runs on headers and found no HP difference =
coated/uncoated. Comparing a cross flow Porsche race motor to our old =
lump is pretty meaningless in my opinion in this regard. Since your =
carb and intake manifold is sitting right on top of the headers, =
certainly not the case in the Porsche, keeping them from getting cooked =
is the best way to make power. Even if there were a HP loss from =
coating, I would bet money on it being less than you get from heating =
carb/intake manifold. There is plenty of data on coated headers being =
able to drop underhood tempartures by significant amounts. Again, it =
works on my car as the carbs are getting the coldest air available from =
in front of the radiator. The air box is insulated so that is about as =
good as it gets. What remains of the air getting in under the hood is =
getting out.
=20
Kas always talked about putting a floor pan on the car, he knew the =
benefits from when he took a TR4 to the Bonneville Salt Flats. For what =
we do it is just not worth the trouble. I run my car flat with a front =
dam and very low. The cockpit is faired in and the car will pull just =
short of the 7,000 rpm redline with a 3.7 rear gear, which Kas figured =
was just about as fast as the brick can go for aero reasons. All the =
rest of the setup is secret=E2=80=A6.Ha!
=20
Anyway, great discussion and hope you have much luck racing this summer. =
We are off until September and that is likely the last race for me this =
year. I am retiring end of year and we have bought a 2 acre ranch =
property on the Central Coast of California, outside Paso Robles. It is =
has shop but I will be expanding to fit the hobby. Good news is =
Buttonwillow 64 miles, Willow 174 miles, Laguna Seca 107 miles and Sears =
Point about 200 + two Kart tracks under 60 miles (I have a TAG racing =
Kart). The rest of the year is moving from Las Vegas to Paso and =
getting set up. Much to do.
=20
Cheers, Ken
=20
From: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
Sent: Monday, June 13, 2022 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...
=20
Dear Ken,
=20
Simple thing=E2=80=A6..if air is entering from the front (with shroud or =
without shroud) the air Must go somewhere.
It can=E2=80=99t get in a status that the air can=E2=80=99t go anywhere =
then there would be no cooling on the radiator.
=20
To answer, the air is going from the engine compartment under the car. =
And a small part along the gearbox tunnel and propshaft tunnel.
There is always air movement. Not sure about the efficiency of the side =
vents but they surely help and don=E2=80=99t hurt =E2=80=93 if there is =
no connection to the wheel arches.
If the vents are open to the wheel arches they more vent the wheels and =
prevent car lift than engine venting.
And not to forget, you don=E2=80=99t get much air through these small =
vents, compared to the big hole under the car.
I did tafting the engine bay and videoed it to see where the air is =
going.
=20
For that part I rely on having much air in the engine bay for cooling =
everything.
I never would coat or wrap headers=E2=80=A6they would soak engine power =
of wrapped or coated.
How do I know? Porsche did many tests on this subject. The cooler the =
exhaust pipe is, the more power.
That=E2=80=99s why I leave everything open.
=20
With regards to drag=E2=80=A6..the floor of the TR4 is not slick, so =
drag is not an issue. If the drivers compartment is closed, that would =
rise the top speed significantly but not if the front is sealed.=20
And for lift of the car=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6I drive in Dago Rake =
style=E2=80=A6..low front , high rear. That creates a slight down force =
under the car from the wedge shape distance to ground under the chassis.
=20
Cheers
Chris
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juni 2022 16:02
Betreff: RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...
=20
Chris;
=20
If more air comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing =
moves and there is no cooling. There are only a few ways to get air out =
from under the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory =
racers and through the bottom. With coated headers most of the heat =
goes down the pipe and the electrics are not that sensitive. Only fresh =
ambient temp air reaches the carbs. I have raced this setup at well =
over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil temps). Less air in =
means less exiting under the car with lifting and turbulence causing =
drag.
=20
Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth only a tenth or so. =
Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer. Have a great summer racing, =
Ken
=20
From: Fot <fot-bounces@autox.team.net =
Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2022 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to thermostat...
=20
I'm not unhappy to have some fresh air under the bonnet.=20
It cooling everything, exhaust headers, electric, carbs, and stuff.
If all is closed only hot air comes in.
No advantage I guess.=20
=20
Cheers=20
Chris=20
=20
=
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&=
utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient>=20
Virus-free. =
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&=
utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Demailclient> www.avg.com=20
=20
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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US =
link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" style=3D'word-wrap:break-word'><div =
class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DDE>Dear =
Ken,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DDE><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DDE>a really interesting discussion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>As far I know=E2=80=A6.F1 cars do enter air in the =
engine compartment and waste it through the rear diffusor together with =
the exhaust fumes.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>But maybe =
I=E2=80=99m not up to date.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I only look =
at my car at speed. What is going on, which air is going where, what =
item needs cooling, what suffers from heat.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I would say that my car is one of the most reliable =
cars on the grid.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>We don=E2=80=99t =
have desert races here but the temperatures can climb above 40=C2=B0C in =
the shadow. Not often but occasionally.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t look on my car stationary. Stationary =
cars might profit from wrapped=C2=A0 headers.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You=E2=80=99re right, Porsche did the measurements on =
the crossflow heads. Our heads are even more sensitive to wrapped =
headers because the header and intake are on the same side and close =
neighbors.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I gloss polished my intake =
header to reflect any heat radiation from the exhaust. As a result only =
conducted heat does heat it up.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Conduction takes place from the head side. The cooler =
the exhaust header and head is, the less the intake heats up, gives more =
power as the intake charge remains colder and more dense. =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To cool the exhaust header I need =
fresh air.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I don=E2=80=99t use an =
airbox as an airbox is a reflection chamber for all 4=C2=A0 cylinders =
and I don=E2=80=99t have the opportunity to calculate if the wavefronts =
of the intake process interfere in a bad manner or in a positive manner. =
Using no airbox is in my opinion the safe side.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
don=E2=80=99t rev my engine high. 5800 or maybe 6200 if needed. The =
overdrive is keeping the revs low.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>My =
engine is designed to give good torque but not high power. It=C2=A0 =
produces about 170foot pound something and the curve starts from 3000 =
=E2=80=93 5800 rpm.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> kknight@klaenv.com <kknight@klaenv.com> =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Dienstag, 14. Juni 2022 16:43<br><b>An:</b> =
tr4racing@googlemail.com<br><b>Betreff:</b> RE: [Fot] To thermostat or =
not to thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>All =
interesting points. However, no modern race car puts any more air =
through the engine compartment than needed=E2=80=A6.at speed. =
Notice all those F1 cars being cooled by dry ice fans at rest. You =
want just enough air in to cool the radiator and this I have =
accomplished. Never a cooling problem at tempartures your side of =
the pond will likely never see. All the other componants have all =
worked well for years. I do wrap the starter with an insulated =
blanket for extra protection since is sits right on top of the =
collector.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Several folks have done dyno runs on headers and found =
no HP difference coated/uncoated. Comparing a cross flow Porsche =
race motor to our old lump is pretty meaningless in my opinion in this =
regard. Since your carb and intake manifold is sitting right on =
top of the headers, certainly not the case in the Porsche, keeping them =
from getting cooked is the best way to make power. =
Even if there were a HP loss from coating, I would bet money on it being =
less than you get from heating carb/intake manifold. There is =
plenty of data on coated headers being able to drop underhood =
tempartures by significant amounts. Again, it works on my =
car as the carbs are getting the coldest air available from in front of =
the radiator. The air box is insulated so that is about as good as =
it gets. What remains of the air getting in under the hood is =
getting out.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kas always talked about putting a floor pan on the =
car, he knew the benefits from when he took a TR4 to the Bonneville Salt =
Flats. For what we do it is just not worth the trouble. I =
run my car flat with a front dam and very low. The cockpit is =
faired in and the car will pull just short of the 7,000 rpm redline with =
a 3.7 rear gear, which Kas figured was just about as fast as the brick =
can go for aero reasons. All the rest of the setup is =
secret=E2=80=A6.Ha!<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Anyway, =
great discussion and hope you have much luck racing this summer. =
We are off until September and that is likely the last race for me this =
year. I am retiring end of year and we have bought a 2 acre ranch =
property on the Central Coast of California, outside Paso Robles. =
It is has shop but I will be expanding to fit the hobby. Good news =
is Buttonwillow 64 miles, Willow 174 miles, Laguna Seca 107 miles and =
Sears Point about 200 + two Kart tracks under 60 miles (I have a TAG =
racing Kart). The rest of the year is moving from Las Vegas to =
Paso and getting set up. Much to do.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers, =
Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>=
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, June =
13, 2022 1:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Dear =
Ken,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Simple thing=E2=80=A6..if air is entering from the =
front (with shroud or without shroud) the air Must go =
somewhere.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>It can=E2=80=99t get in a =
status that the air can=E2=80=99t go anywhere then there would be no =
cooling on the radiator.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To answer, =
the air is going from the engine compartment under the car. And a small =
part along the gearbox tunnel and propshaft tunnel.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>There is always air movement. Not sure about the =
efficiency of the side vents but they surely help and don=E2=80=99t hurt =
=E2=80=93 if there is no connection to the wheel =
arches.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If the vents are open to the =
wheel arches they more vent the wheels and prevent car lift than engine =
venting.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>And not to forget, you =
don=E2=80=99t get much air through these small vents, compared to the =
big hole under the car.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I did tafting =
the engine bay and videoed it to see where the air is =
going.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>For that part I rely on having much air in the engine =
bay for cooling everything.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I never =
would coat or wrap headers=E2=80=A6they would soak engine power of =
wrapped or coated.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>How do I know? =
Porsche did many tests on this subject. The cooler the exhaust pipe is, =
the more power.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>That=E2=80=99s why I =
leave everything open.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>With regards =
to drag=E2=80=A6..the floor of the TR4 is not slick, so drag is not an =
issue. If the drivers compartment is closed, that would rise the top =
speed significantly but not if the front is sealed. <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>And for lift of the car=E2=80=A6=E2=80=A6I drive in =
Dago Rake style=E2=80=A6..low front , high rear. That creates a slight =
down force under the car from the wedge shape distance to ground under =
the chassis.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span lang=3DDE>Von:</span></b><span =
lang=3DDE> <a href=3D"mailto:kknight@klaenv.com";>kknight@klaenv.com</a> =
<<a href=3D"mailto:kknight@klaenv.com";>kknight@klaenv.com</a>> =
<br><b>Gesendet:</b> Montag, 13. Juni 2022 16:02<br><b>An:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:tr4racing@googlemail.com";>tr4racing@googlemail.com</a>; =
<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Betreff:<=
/b> RE: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>If more air =
comes in than can go out, for instance at speed, nothing moves and there =
is no cooling. There are only a few ways to get air out from under =
the hood on a TR, some cowl work, side vents as on factory racers and =
through the bottom. With coated headers most of the heat goes down =
the pipe and the electrics are not that sensitive. Only fresh =
ambient temp air reaches the carbs. I have raced this setup at =
well over +100f/38c and all was good (water and oil temps). Less =
air in means less exiting under the car with lifting and turbulence =
causing drag.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hey listen, its more work and complex, likely worth =
only a tenth or so. Kas liked it and it was fun to engineer. =
Have a great summer racing, Ken<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Fot <<a =
href=3D"mailto:fot-bounces@autox.team.net";>fot-bounces@autox.team.net</a>=
> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Chris Marx via Fot<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June =
12, 2022 11:57 AM<br><b>To:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:fot@autox.team.net";>fot@autox.team.net</a><br><b>Subject:<=
/b> Re: [Fot] To thermostat or not to =
thermostat...<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I'm not =
unhappy to have some fresh air under the =
bonnet. <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>It cooling =
everything, exhaust headers, electric, carbs, and =
stuff.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>If all is closed =
only hot air comes in.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>No =
advantage I guess. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Cheers <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Chris <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div =
id=3DDAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2><p =
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_______________________________________________
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